are we doomed???

[killemall]

you decide, just imagine this country in 50 years. thats why i have no and will not have any children in this country.









The Illegal Alien Conquest
Of Los Angeles County
3-1-7








1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English.

3.9 million speak Spanish. (There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University ].

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

If they can come to this country to raise hell and demonstrate by the thousands, WHY can't they take charge over the corruption in their own country?

We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO

On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, "This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts? It's called affirmative action or racial privilege. The Emperor of Japan or the President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent.

Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more.

DID YOU KNOW?

Did you know .. that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals?

Did you know .. that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so?

According to the L.A. Times, Orange County , California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members, 98% of which are Mexican and Asian.

How's your county doing?

According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994 , 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia , 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.

Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. "Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references."

WHEN I WAS YOUNG

I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island .

They wanted to learn English.

They wanted to breathe free.

They wanted to become Americans.

Now, far too many immigrants come here with demands.

They demand to be taught in their own language.

They demand special privileges ... affirmative action.

They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

NOW . WHY CAN'T WE SEND THEM HOME

[Deadsea7777]

[/QUOTE]WHEN I WAS YOUNG

I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island .

They wanted to learn English.

They wanted to breathe free.

They wanted to become Americans.

Now, far too many immigrants come here with demands.

They demand to be taught in their own language.

They demand special privileges ... affirmative action.

They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

NOW . WHY CAN'T WE SEND THEM HOME[/QUOTE]

Technology have move forward with the passing of time. Is easier today than it was before to avoid borders.
To avoid illegal immigration you will have to turn the USA (one of the greatest countries in the world) into a police state, and destroy all that has made the USA great. Therefore is not an option if you love the USA.
I accept the Roman definition of homeland “Alma Mater” meaning “Nourishing Mother”, if the USA accept me as his son I will love it as my “Alma Mater”.
About your six conditions, I agree with the first three. I do not need any of the last three.
Wish me good luck with the green card lottery. An open mind made the USA unique and the envy of many. Do not close it.

[Dr. Vollin]

Doomed? Because of some people "illegally" entering land that was once theirs (I'm talking about California and other southwest states)? Hardly.

You do know that section of the country was once part of Mexico before it was occupied by US, right?

[maniactickler]

Unless liberalism is defeated, the end will be in sight.

[Iggy pop]

You do know that section of the country was once part of Mexico before it was occupied by US, right?

And it "was once" part of Spain along with the rest of Mexico and Latin America. The East Coast "was once" part of Great Britian. All of the Americas "was once" Native American tribal land. When Hitler invaded Poland his excuse was that he was just attempting to get back land that "was once" part of Germany. Saddam Hussein said he invaded Kuwati because it "was once" part of Iraq. "Was once" should not matter. We deal with the here and now.

[bugman]

And it "was once" part of Spain along with the rest of Mexico and Latin America. The East Coast "was once" part of Great Britian. All of the Americas "was once" Native American tribal land. When Hitler invaded Poland his excuse was that he was just attempting to get back land that "was once" part of Germany. Saddam Hussein said he invaded Kuwati because it "was once" part of Iraq. "Was once" should not matter. We deal with the here and now.

Very good points......

[Dr. Vollin]

:cool:

[Iggy pop]

What Edition of the Los Angeles Times did this article appear, because some of the stats seem questionabale.


you decide, just imagine this country in 50 years. thats why i have no and will not have any children in this country.

The Illegal Alien Conquest
Of Los Angeles County
3-1-7

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

Like this one for example.

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.

This is another fact that is very questionable, becuas illegal aliens are not eligible for welfare. You have to be an American Citizen and they are very stringent on that.

Did you know .. that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so?

This is a blantant lie. In fact a cop killer was turned on to U.S. last Friday.



According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994 , 20 years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast Asia , 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5, 1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the population.

Asians have done very well in this society, so I would like to see those welfare numbers today in 2007. As for Asian mobster being the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces", you know week before it was probably the Russians and week later it was probably the Colombians.

I am against illegal immigration, but this thread is alarmist. It is like Al Gore and his global warming scare stories, but just from the other side. The statistics here seem inflated and some of the facts are not true. Did you get this from a white pride site?

[Dr. Vollin]

And it "was once" part of Spain along with the rest of Mexico and Latin America. The East Coast "was once" part of Great Britian. All of the Americas "was once" Native American tribal land. When Hitler invaded Poland his excuse was that he was just attempting to get back land that "was once" part of Germany. Saddam Hussein said he invaded Kuwati because it "was once" part of Iraq. "Was once" should not matter. We deal with the here and now.

"Should not" matter? Maybe, but it does where that region of the country is concerned; the Spanish/Mexican influence hasn't disappeared from it. Do you share killemall's apparent shock and disgust that there's a substantial Mexican population, legal and illegal, there?

Debating illegal immigration is one thing, but I really don't think that's the OP's intent.

[Haltickling]

you decide, just imagine this country in 50 years. thats why i have no and will not have any children in this country.
That's a wise decision. For a very different reason, though: Xenophobes shouldn't have children... :rolleyes:

[isabeau]

That's a wise decision. For a very different reason, though: Xenophobes shouldn't have children... :rolleyes:

what are Xenophobes???? those who fear aliens? or illegal aliens? anyhoo, seems like rather a silly reason not to have children...

[bugman]

what are Xenophobes???? those who fear aliens? or illegal aliens? anyhoo, seems like rather a silly reason not to have children...

You could say both Izzy,a xenophobe is anyone who fears outside infulences on their counrty or culture,although this is far from unique for Americans.For anyone from Europe to look down on us for that is something i find a bit disingenuous my self.

[Iggy pop]

"Should not" matter? Maybe, but it does where that region of the country is concerned; the Spanish/Mexican influence hasn't disappeared from it. Do you share killemall's apparent shock and disgust that there's a substantial Mexican population, legal and illegal, there?

Debating illegal immigration is one thing, but I really don't think that's the OP's intent.

I live in California, and I have been to Mexico. California is not Mexico. Does it have some influence, sure it does. I have nothing against Legal immigration from Mexico or anywhere. My girlfriend is from Colombia. But I do believe we have the right as soverign nation to say who we allow in.

[DEV]

If they can come to this country to raise hell and demonstrate by the thousands, WHY can't they take charge over the corruption in their own country?

And I'm fairly certain the people of the First Nations thought that when the Mayflower docked. They probably thought about building a wall too...

[bugman]

I live in California, and I have been to Mexico. California is not Mexico. Does it have some influence, sure it does. I have nothing against Legal immigration from Mexico or anywhere. My girlfriend is from Colombia. But I do believe we have the right as soverign nation to say who we allow in.

Indeed we do,as does every soverign nation...

[Iggy pop]

And I'm fairly certain the people of the First Nations thought that when the Mayflower docked. They probably thought about building a wall too...


And with everything that happened, maybe they should have.

[bugman]

And I'm fairly certain the people of the First Nations thought that when the Mayflower docked. They probably thought about building a wall too...

How far back in history to you care to go?The people of Britain fought to expell the Roman Empire from your country.The Chinese finally got the Mongols out of their country.This can is an agrument that can go on and on with no conclusion......

[storm7400]

What Edition of the Los Angeles Times did this article appear, because some of the stats seem questionabale.




Like this one for example.



This is another fact that is very questionable, becuas illegal aliens are not eligible for welfare. You have to be an American Citizen and they are very stringent on that.



This is a blantant lie. In fact a cop killer was turned on to U.S. last Friday.





Asians have done very well in this society, so I would like to see those welfare numbers today in 2007. As for Asian mobster being the "greatest criminal challenge the country faces", you know week before it was probably the Russians and week later it was probably the Colombians.

I am against illegal immigration, but this thread is alarmist. It is like Al Gore and his global warming scare stories, but just from the other side. The statistics here seem inflated and some of the facts are not true. Did you get this from a white pride site?


Yes but Al Gore is right about global warming!


The time and place for us to be the land of opportunity for immigrants is passed. We have too many problems of our own to have to deal with illegal immigrants. Shut down the borders and round up these illegals and get rid of them! And for the ones that are here legally: SPEAK ENGLISH OR GET OUT!!!!

[DEV]

How far back in history to you care to go?The people of Britain fought to expell the Roman Empire from your country.The Chinese finally got the Mongols out of their country.This can is an agrument that can go on and on with no conclusion......

Your meaning exactly?

[bugman]

Yes but Al Gore is right about global warming!


The time and place for us to be the land of opportunity for immigrants is passed. We have too many problems of our own to have to deal with illegal immigrants. Shut down the borders and round up these illegals and get rid of them! And for the ones that are here legally: SPEAK ENGLISH OR GET OUT!!!!

I would disagree that this is no longer the land of opportunity for immigrants.Illegal immigrants are another matter.And yes,those who strive to make a better life for themselves and there families need to learn english.The key to sucsess in American has been to aasimilate at least to some degree.

If i wanted to live in another country i would expect to learn the language.I see nothing wrong with that.

Now as concerns Mr. Gore and his view on global warming,that is a topic for another thread which already exists.

[Iggy pop]

I apologize for bringing up Al Gore. The purpose was as a comparison statement for people claiming "we are doomed" which I think is rather alarmist. However, we should not turn the thread into a Al Gore thread, so in the meanwhile, let's try to forget I mentioned him.

[asutickler]

As many of you already know, I am about as opposed to illegal immigration as it is possible to be...

And even *I* think that article is full of shit. :rolleyes:

[Mastertank1]

If you think that's a GOOD thing, talk to just about any Hopi, Navajo, Pueblo, Zuni, Apache or Comanche.

If you can't find one to talk to (the Spaniards and Mexicans DID reduce their populations pretty drastically) try reading a book called "The Pueblo Revolt". Very instructive.

As an adoptee into the Hunkpapa Lakota, I have relatively little sympathy for "Spanish/Mexican influence" in the Southwest.

Some days, I think we'd all have been better off if Plymouth Rock had landed on the Pilgrims!

[Iggy pop]

If you think that's a GOOD thing, talk to just about any Hopi, Navajo, Pueblo, Zuni, Apache or Comanche.

If you can't find one to talk to (the Spaniards and Mexicans DID reduce their populations pretty drastically) try reading a book called "The Pueblo Revolt". Very instructive.

As an adoptee into the Hunkpapa Lakota, I have relatively little sympathy for "Spanish/Mexican influence" in the Southwest.

Some days, I think we'd all have been better off if Plymouth Rock had landed on the Pilgrims!

Yes this is true. The British, Americans, French, Spanish, and Mexicans all did some horrible things to the Indian tribes, and the Indian tribes did some horrible stuff to each other before and after the Spanish, English, French arrived. And you know probably a few million years ago the T-Rex probably did some horrible things to the Triceratops here, but this has nothing to do with the here and now. Yes terrible things were done, and I see your point, but it does not have any bearing on illegal immigration.

[tickledgirl]

As others have noted, many of killemall's "facts" are obviously false. More prove false if you take a few minutes to check on them. That seems to be the usual level of nativist demagoguery on this subject. And that's too bad, because this is a serious topic that's should be honestly discussed.

Here are a couple of stories from the real LA Times. This first is a story about how Colorado's strict anti-immigration law is working out:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-inmates1mar01,0,1429575,full.story?coll=la-home-headlinesEver since passing what its Legislature promoted as the nation's toughest laws against illegal immigration last summer, Colorado has struggled with a labor shortage as migrants fled the state.

The next seems to refute some of killemall's BS about immigrant criminals, as well as talking about the positive effects of immigration:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-immigstudy28feb28,0,30276.story?coll=la-home-headlinesAnother study released Monday by the Washington-based Immigration Policy Center showed that immigrant men ages 18 to 39 had an incarceration rate five times lower than native-born citizens in every ethnic group examined.A study released Tuesday by the Public Policy Institute of California found that immigrants who arrived in the state between 1990 and 2004 increased wages for native workers by an average 4%. The last study seems like it'd be hard to prove, but I haven't looked at it.

But illegals pay taxes while receiving fewer services. They have to pay things like sales or property taxes. I suppose their employers can choose to pocket the withheld payroll taxes, but the problem of crooked businessmen is only tangentially related to illegal immigration.

So they pay taxes, but they can't collect on welfare, social security, or unemployment. And they may boost native wages. Sounds like they're not making "doom" like they used to.

[drew70]

Few if any illegals own property, so most don't pay property tax. Sure they pay a nickel of sales tax for every cup of coffee they buy at 7-Eleven. Big whoop. They don't have thirty to fifty percent of their wages garnered by Uncle Sam. Plus another 10 percent garnered by the state. They get free medical care at emergency rooms across the country. I don't know about Chicago, but here in Montgomery County, a bedroom community of Washington DC, there are all kinds of special needs programs for illegals, to include special housing, food programs, educational opportunities, medical benefits, etc. Around here, it pays to be illegal.

Doom is alive and well and thriving, rest assured.

[Redmage]

You know, 50 years ago there were people predicting the downfall of this great nation. They said that the way things were going pretty soon we'd be allowing Negroes to get above themselves and marry white people, we'd be permitting homosexuals and other deviants to practice their perversions openly, and soon after that the Communists would take over and the American way of life would be destroyed.

Folks really need to get over themselves.

[Redmage]

I would disagree that this is no longer the land of opportunity for immigrants.Illegal immigrants are another matter.And yes,those who strive to make a better life for themselves and there families need to learn english.The key to sucsess in American has been to aasimilate at least to some degree.

If i wanted to live in another country i would expect to learn the language.I see nothing wrong with that.And people who want to assimilate in this country do learn English. That's not the sort of thing that needs to be enforced by law, however.

[Strider]

You do know that section of the country was once part of Mexico before it was occupied by US, right?

We stole it fair and square.

[tickledgirl]

You know, 50 years ago there were people predicting the downfall of this great nation. They said that the way things were going pretty soon we'd be allowing Negroes to get above themselves and marry white people, we'd be permitting homosexuals and other deviants to practice their perversions openly, and soon after that the Communists would take over and the American way of life would be destroyed.

Folks really need to get over themselves.

I suppose you think it's FUNNY, the COMMIES and PREVERTS contaminating our precious bodily fluids???!!!

[Iggy pop]

As others have noted, many of killemall's "facts" are obviously false. More prove false if you take a few minutes to check on them. That seems to be the usual level of nativist demagoguery on this subject. And that's too bad, because this is a serious topic that's should be honestly discussed.

Here are a couple of stories from the real LA Times. This first is a story about how Colorado's strict anti-immigration law is working out:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-inmates1mar01,0,1429575,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

First it's not an anti-immigration law, but antiillegal immigration law. This is a big diffrence.

Second, this fall under "jobs Americans will not do." This is the same thing manufacturers said when they moved jobs to Southeast Asia where they pay people slave wages. The phrase is insulting and insinuates we have no native born poor here or that there are more jobs than workers. It's simply not true. Americans will do any job out there, but they want a living wage. It's unfortunate that nobody finishes this sentence. It should be "jobs Americans will not do at slave wages" And from the article above, I quote the Center of Immigration studies:

ultimately they're going to have to improve the wages and working conditions" to attract legal workers, as well as to mechanize parts of their farming operations.

The next seems to refute some of killemall's BS about immigrant criminals, as well as talking about the positive effects of immigration:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-immigstudy28feb28,0,30276.story?coll=la-home-headlines The last study seems like it'd be hard to prove, but I haven't looked at it.

I am not an expert on this, but this seem to refute this information.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0b9 c

But illegals pay taxes while receiving fewer services. They have to pay things like sales or property taxes. I suppose their employers can choose to pocket the withheld payroll taxes, but the problem of crooked businessmen is only tangentially related to illegal immigration.

So they pay taxes, but they can't collect on welfare, social security, or unemployment. And they may boost native wages. Sounds like they're not making "doom" like they used to.

According to the Center of Immigration Studies lot of what above is false, but I do agree greedy CEOs are one biggest part of the problem. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Are we doomed? No. Is it problem, yes. The LAUSD used to be one of the best school systems in the country, but not anymore. We have emergency rooms closing all over the place. All you have to do is talk to the teachers and talk to the nurses and they will tell you why that it is.

[Mastertank1]

When apprehended for any crime, unless the prosecutor for the local jurisdiction where the crime took place enters a special request to allow prosecution and serving of a sentence first, (this usually takes place only in really serious criminal cases) the illegal is taken to an INS holding facility and deported without ever getting arraigned. People in INS custody are not counted as part of the prison population.

Let me also mention that in NYC, the illegal immigrant population is not mainly Hispanic. East Asians, South Asians, Eastern Europeans, Scandinavians, and Celts from the British Isles are, each seperately, as numerous or more so.

A lot of East European women are tricked, coming in under the impression that they will be legal and have legitimate jobs and then being forced into prostitution under threat of violence. When the men who have victimized these women screw up and the apartment gets busted, the women are usually offered asylum in the US.

It's a huge mess, and the laws need to be changed to punish the people who hire and exploit these illegal immigrants as well as the illegals themselves. I also think we need to repeal or amend the law that made anyone born on US territory a citizen regardless of parentage. That is a HUGE loophole.
It was only a law, not a constitutional amendment, and could easily be amended or repealed.
I would like to see it changed to read that any child of a US citizen is a US citizen, including children of naturalized citizens, even those children born prior to the parent's naturalization, regardless of the location of the birth.
I think that would be fair, and close the gaping loophole that so many illegals have taken advantage of.

[Iggy pop]

When apprehended for any crime, unless the prosecutor for the local jurisdiction where the crime took place enters a special request to allow prosecution and serving of a sentence first, (this usually takes place only in really serious criminal cases) the illegal is taken to an INS holding facility and deported without ever getting arraigned. People in INS custody are not counted as part of the prison population.

Let me also mention that in NYC, the illegal immigrant population is not mainly Hispanic. East Asians, South Asians, Eastern Europeans, Scandinavians, and Celts from the British Isles are, each seperately, as numerous or more so.
This is a very good point. Illegal immigration should not be turned into a race issue and all illegal immigrants should be treated the same.




It's a huge mess, and the laws need to be changed to punish the people who hire and exploit these illegal immigrants as well as the illegals themselves. I also think we need to repeal or amend the law that made anyone born on US territory a citizen regardless of parentage. That is a HUGE loophole.
It was only a law, not a constitutional amendment, and could easily be amended or repealed.

I completely agree with you. These people are profiting off low-wage labor. They also have un-fair competition advantage of those companies that are following the law. In fact, I think work place enforcement should be the number one priority. It makes more sense that spending millions on a fence.

I would like to see it changed to read that any child of a US citizen is a US citizen, including children of naturalized citizens, even those children born prior to the parent's naturalization, regardless of the location of the birth.
I think that would be fair, and close the gaping loophole that so many illegals have taken advantage of.

I agree with you, but that will be a Supreme Court battle because of the 14th Amendment interpretation of the following: All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

[bugman]

And people who want to assimilate in this country do learn English. That's not the sort of thing that needs to be enforced by law, however.

I never said it should be a matter of law that i am aware of.

[Redmage]

Second, this fall under "jobs Americans will not do." This is the same thing manufacturers said when they moved jobs to Southeast Asia where they pay people slave wages. The phrase is insulting and insinuates we have no native born poor here or that there are more jobs than workers. It's simply not true. Americans will do any job out there, but they want a living wage. It's unfortunate that nobody finishes this sentence. It should be "jobs Americans will not do at slave wages" It's a little more complicated than that.

1) Illegal immigrants in the US are generally paid more than they would be paid for similar work in Mexico. That's why they're here, after all. So it's not quite the same as "outsourcing" to third world sweatshops.

2) The wage for a given job is the balance point of competing forces. Businesses try to keep prices down, not just to maximize their profits but because if their overhead is too high then their prices will be too high and they won't be able to sell their goods and services at all.

3) This means that if farm workers, for example, are getting scut wages then it's at least partly because you and I won't pay more than a certain amount for our groceries. If you want to see a "fair wage" for these jobs, then get set to pay for it yourself, because ultimately that's where the money comes from.

4) This is the free market at work. Illegal immigrants provide a service: their labor. They are willing to provide that service at a lower cost than most American workers. That's their right, and if American workers refuse to lower their prices to compete, then that's their right too. But they shouldn't complain then when they don't get the jobs.

[Redmage]

I never said it should be a matter of law that i am aware of.The thing is, if it's not supposed to be a matter of law, then it seems to me that it goes without mention. Someone who attempts to make good in the US without English will either be punished by market forces, or will succeed through determination and ingenuity (in which case I say more power to them).

It's sort of like saying "I think everyone should carry a raincoat on a rainy day." Good advice, but anyone who doesn't take it will get what they've got coming to them anyway, and either they'll learn better or they won't. And that'll happen whether you say it or not.

I guess when we're talking about forces of nature and economics, advice is pointless and legislation is superfluous, so pretty much all we're left with is observations.

[Iggy pop]

It's a little more complicated than that.

I disagree, but fine.

1) Illegal immigrants in the US are generally paid more than they would be paid for similar work in Mexico. That's why they're here, after all. So it's not quite the same as "outsourcing" to third world sweatshops.

I agree, they are paid more than they are in Mexico, but still below averages. For example a job in construction used to be a middle class job. It's not anymore. These people are often living in some horrible conditions. There is a term in Los Angeles called "clown house" These are one family homes that have three or four families living in them. One of the biggest ironies, many illegal aliens are employed as nannies for other people's children, but they often never see their own children at all.

2) The wage for a given job is the balance point of competing forces. Businesses try to keep prices down, not just to maximize their profits but because if their overhead is too high then their prices will be too high and they won't be able to sell their goods and services at all.

3) This means that if farm workers, for example, are getting scut wages then it's at least partly because you and I won't pay more than a certain amount for our groceries. If you want to see a "fair wage" for these jobs, then get set to pay for it yourself, because ultimately that's where the money comes from.

Yes we would have to pay more at the grocery store, but many economists believe it would only be a minute amount, because labor only makes up the small cost of production. You we are already paying the costs in health care and education here in California.

4) This is the free market at work. Illegal immigrants provide a service: their labor. They are willing to provide that service at a lower cost than most American workers. That's their right, and if American workers refuse to lower their prices to compete, then that's their right too. But they shouldn't complain then when they don't get the jobs.

First it is not their right because they are not here legally. It also provides company that break the law an unfair advantage over a company that follows the law. How is that right much less legal?

In Los Angeles, we have a problem keeping emergency rooms open. LAUSD, the public school system was once one of the nation's best, but is now hovering around 50% graduation rates for students. If you talk to teachers and nurses they will tell you that illegal immigration in this problem.

[tickledgirl]

First it's not an anti-immigration law, but antiillegal immigration law. This is a big diffrence.In theory yes. In practice...well, imagine a law targetting drunk drivers. It's not intended to be an anti-driver law. But once you've spent an hour waiting at a checkpoint, and your brother's been nailed with a false positive, you might not be so sure. Similarly, you might have a hard time convincing the legal immigrant who's had her workplace raided three time, and been detained (and docked pay) while they check her papers, and keep getting pulled over in ID checks that this law isn't anti-immigrant.

Second, this fall under "jobs Americans will not do." This is the same thing manufacturers said when they moved jobs to Southeast Asia where they pay people slave wages. The phrase is insulting and insinuates we have no native born poor here or that there are more jobs than workers. It's simply not true. Americans will do any job out there, but they want a living wage. It's unfortunate that nobody finishes this sentence. It should be "jobs Americans will not do at slave wages" Read the article. This isn't rhetoric about what might happen. This isn't insults directed at anyone. The fact is: They clamped down on illegals, and now they have a labor shortage. Does that just means Colorado isn't paying enough? The whole state? I suppose that could be. But what kind of economic impact is raising all those wages going to have?

I am not an expert on this, but this seem to refute this information.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0b9 cI'm no expert either, but I notice they use the term "criminal alien" throughout, and define it as "non-citizens who commit crimes." Does that include illegally crossing the border? They don't say. Given their bias, I'm going to guess it does. So there are a lot of illegal aliens in Federal detention. That doesn't disprove what I said about the number of aliens incarcerated (in federal and state prisons) for non-immigration crimes.



According to the Center of Immigration Studies lot of what above is false, but I do agree greedy CEOs are one biggest part of the problem. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.htmlHmm...according to that, illegals do pay taxes. They impose a drain drain on the federal system because they're poor.

My biggest objection would be that again they discuss only the Federal picture. But fewer illegals get hit with payroll tax. If they're being paid under the table, the employer pockets the money that should be going towards taxes. At the state & local level, there's no way for them to avoid sales tax. That's a huge percentage of tax in many states. And it's hard for them to avoid property tax either, unless they're living on the street. If they pay rent, that pays the landlord's property tax.

So is this a case where the federal government gets screwed, but state and local governments do okay? With all the unfunded federal mandates, it'd be nice to see the picture reversed for once.

The LAUSD used to be one of the best school systems in the country, but not anymore. We have emergency rooms closing all over the place. All you have to do is talk to the teachers and talk to the nurses and they will tell you why that it is.

LA schools got hit by a property tax revolt. And emergency rooms are having to act as (very expensive) primary care providers, since non-specialist physicians seem to be going the way of the dodo. Education and health care are huge issues, and you can't pin their decline solely (or even mostly) on illegal immigration.

[Iggy pop]

In theory yes. In practice...well, imagine a law targetting drunk drivers. It's not intended to be an anti-driver law. But once you've spent an hour waiting at a checkpoint, and your brother's been nailed with a false positive, you might not be so sure. Similarly, you might have a hard time convincing the legal immigrant who's had her workplace raided three time, and been detained (and docked pay) while they check her papers, and keep getting pulled over in ID checks that this law isn't anti-immigrant.

If legal immigrants feel they are being harrassed, then I agree that is an issue and it should be dealt with.

Read the article. This isn't rhetoric about what might happen. This isn't insults directed at anyone. The fact is: They clamped down on illegals, and now they have a labor shortage. Does that just means Colorado isn't paying enough? The whole state? I suppose that could be. But what kind of economic impact is raising all those wages going to have?

I have read the article, and the online article is actually only abreviated of the original Los Angeles Times article which I also read. Yes, I did take interpetations out of the article. The facts from the article state that growers association is having problem finding workers since the passage of stricter illegal-immigration laws in Colorado. Does this mean that native born people and legal residents are not willing to do the work, or is it because they were paying inferior slave-like wages? What is the impact of high wages? We would have to pay more for produce, but many economist believe it would only be "sligtly more." I know raising people's wages is a terrible thing.

I'm no expert either, but I notice they use the term "criminal alien" throughout, and define it as "non-citizens who commit crimes." Does that include illegally crossing the border? They don't say. Given their bias, I'm going to guess it does. So there are a lot of illegal aliens in Federal detention. That doesn't disprove what I said about the number of aliens incarcerated (in federal and state prisons) for non-immigration crimes.

Again, I have to say I am not an expert on prisions, I know no prison guards or wardens, however, I do have to say I am pretty sure they do no throw very many people in prisons for illegally crossing the border.



Hmm...according to that, illegals do pay taxes. They impose a drain drain on the federal system because they're poor.

My biggest objection would be that again they discuss only the Federal picture. But fewer illegals get hit with payroll tax. If they're being paid under the table, the employer pockets the money that should be going towards taxes. At the state & local level, there's no way for them to avoid sales tax. That's a huge percentage of tax in many states. And it's hard for them to avoid property tax either, unless they're living on the street. If they pay rent, that pays the landlord's property tax.

Under the table jobs is usally a split between the employee and the employer pocketing the money. It's not just at the federal level The cost to California is labeled at 9 billion dollars acording to this article http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt. Yes they pay sales tax. As for Propety tax, that is also paid, but they often well exceed the maximum occupancy laws.




LA schools got hit by a property tax revolt. And emergency rooms are having to act as (very expensive) primary care providers, since non-specialist physicians seem to be going the way of the dodo. Education and health care are huge issues, and you can't pin their decline solely (or even mostly) on illegal immigration.

According to teachers that I have spoken to, which I fully admit is not every teacher, children of illegal immigrants is the largest problems facing the school system. And the Nurses, I have spoken to have said the same thing. This is not a group of arch-consertives. These people are pretty liberal, but they feel overwhelmed by this problem.

[tickledgirl]

The cost to California is labeled at 9 billion dollars acording to this article http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt.Just skimmed through the article, but it sounds like the vast majority of the costs their counting include the cost of education for children born in the US. Anyone born in the US is a legal citizen. (Changing that law is a whole 'nother matter. EDIT: It would probably require amending the Constitution.)

According to teachers that I have spoken to, which I fully admit is not every teacher, children of illegal immigrants is the largest problems facing the school system. And the Nurses, I have spoken to have said the same thing. This is not a group of arch-consertives. These people are pretty liberal, but they feel overwhelmed by this problem.

It should be pretty easy to determine that. Schools and emergency rooms in areas with lots of illegal immigrants should be much worse off than those in areas with fewer. I'm not aware of any study (or even anecdotal evidence) that suggests that's the case.

[Oddjob0226]

you decide, just imagine this country in 50 years.

Well Dr. Pessimiso, it looks like there will actully be consumer-end flying cars available in the near future. That's awesome!

True, I hope that you have to have a driver's license and not a generic "ID card" to use them. But still, flying cars, man!!!

And....why not..... here's the Snopes perspective: www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

[MrMacphisto]

America will likely become a Second World nation in a matter of decades, due to increases in the world population and in the demand for various resources.

Illegal immigration is just a sign that we need to better educate our own people, so that they aren't competing with cheap labor for shitty jobs. There's really no good reason why the average American should have to do a lot of these kind of unskilled jobs. We're First World, so we should have a better education system. For now, we're the scholastic disgrace of the First World.

Many of our colleges are good, but primary and secondary education in this country pales in comparison to the systems in Japan, Canada, and much of Europe. If we had a 2-track education system like the one in Germany, we'd have a better educated blue collar workforce. At that point, the illegal immigration issue would mostly just be an issue of dealing with MS-13 and other drug smugglers.