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Icycle
04-05-2007, 02:58 PM
Over the last few days I have been actively participating in a thread on the General forum titled something like "Google.com good for stalkers" or something similar. There has been a lot of thoughtful, interesting discussion. Some of it was a bit heated, but there didn't seem to be any personal attacks or other Golden Rule violations that I was aware of, at least as of the last time I was able to check. There was one troll on the thread (who appears to have posted 58 times, yet only has 4 posts left visible), but people were either ignoring him, or responding constructively rather than flaming. Many people considered this thread to be a good public service announcement.

When I went to check on the state of the thread this afternoon, I couldn't find it anywhere, and I noticed that my posting history no longer lists my posts from this thread. I am forced to conclude that the entire thread was deleted.

I understand that being a moderator is a hard, underappreciated job, but I really feel like nuking this whole thread was a bad choice. A lot of people put a lot of thought and energy into what was generally a very fruitful discussion. I never saw anything that was worth reporting to the mods. Had I seen anything, I would have reported it as soon as I saw it, so the offending posts could be excised without removing the whole thread. I have been bitten in the past, where a thread I was participating in got removed because things got out of hand before the mods got involved. As nearly as I could tell, that wasn't the case, at least as of last night. And even if things got out of control in the last 12 hours, surely it would have been better to delete the offending posts of the last twelve hours rather than removing all the thought, emotion, and energy that people have been pouring into that thread over most of the last week.

Mods, please, please, please!!! think twice, or even three or four times before deleting an entire thread! This is not the first time I have been in a thread that got deleted by the mods. Each time it happens it is incredibly frustrating and annoying. I and others put a lot of time and thought into our posts, and it is very shocking for it to all disappear without a trace. When a thread is deleted, there isn't even a headstone left behind that says the thread once was there, or why it got deleted.

Was it something that I dismissed as unimportant that I should have reported to a mod? I don't know and have no way of knowing for future reference.

isabeau
04-05-2007, 03:07 PM
i'm in total agreement with this...that thread might have helped many people, and yes it did get heated...but damn there were some thought provoking posts there...a few mine..lol..this deleteing entire threads is getting a bit redundant...although i can't really complain, as a p&r entire thread was deleted, and that was partially my fault....partially i say...and still the entire thread should never have been deleted..i had even offered to clean it up myself...

alwayssilver
04-05-2007, 03:15 PM
I started the thread, and it did get heated like everyones saying. I did read every post in the thread as well, and even though a few got upset and used language they shouldn't have I did learn a lot of useful information from them. But I'm not quiet sure who you were refering to as the troll.

LindyHopper
04-05-2007, 03:28 PM
I've got to weigh in on this, because I'm frustrated, too. People disagreed on the topic, but I thought all but one of them did so in a constructive, polite, and thoughtful way.

I would appreciate an explanation for the moderator's decision. From my perspective, only one of two things (possibly both) could have happened here:

1) Requesting to have the thread deleted was a way for one side of this argument to silence the other. Requesting moderator intervention becomes a way to torch the land once debate is lost.

2) The troll won. At least half a dozen people with lengthy histories of worthwhile posting got their contributions deleted because one newbie couldn't follow the rules of civil discussion.

I really don't like the implications of this. The ones I see are:

1) Authentic discussion is discouraged. If a thread with all the polite and worthwhile discussion that was taking place on this thread could be deleted in its entirety, that suggests that we should avoid any expression of a divergent point of view. If a person who doesn't like what you have to say can get it deleted, then what's the point?

2) Reporting of problem posts is discouraged. There are a couple of posts in the current thread about youth and sexual responsbility that I think contain clear Golden Rule violations, but I certainly don't want to be responsible for that entire thread being deleted just because one of the usual troublemakers couldn't stay to the proper side of civil.

BTW, didn't we used to have a "Report Post" button? If the only way to report a problem post now is to report the thread, that's certainly would tend to lead to deleting the entire thread rather than pinpointing the source of the problem.

I really do appreciate everything you moderators do to keep this forum running. Still, I simply can't let this call go in silence - I think it deserves an explanation. Thank you for your time.

Icycle
04-05-2007, 03:30 PM
But I'm not quiet sure who you were refering to as the troll.

I don't want to name names, because I don't want to violate any rules, but there was at least one prolific poster in the thread who was constantly attacking Redmage, and at one point, after a rapid fire exchange between this person and Redmage, after about a 15 minute pause, this person posted something like "So Redmage, you haven't got anything else to say then? You must not be able to respond to what I've said."

alwayssilver
04-05-2007, 03:43 PM
I read what everyone said, but even though the poster you refer to did get loud, he did make several great points. And like you said they ignored that poster, but honestly that wasn't true, he was quoted several times. And not everyone disagreed with what he was saying. He got loud yes. He used foul language. But he wasn't entirely wrong in what he was saying.

This is what I agreed with.

(You can't determine the safety of your children based on numbers, and statistics.)

And I did notice Redmage called the youtube clip a fairytale. Whether or not the validity of the clip itself was real or not, doesnít' make the occurrence inaccurate.

Oh and Someone said you can't trust the media or something like that for valid information concerning the well being of our children, than someone said we can't trust our brains because we are ill equipped to determine whether or not a situation poses a threat.

And lastly I feel that posters heart was in the right place. And I just think he needs to breath more when posting.

Redmage
04-05-2007, 03:46 PM
1) Requesting to have the thread deleted was a way for one side of this argument to silence the other. Requesting moderator intervention becomes a way to torch the land once debate is lost.I don't think this was it. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) only the original poster of a thread can request to have the whole thing nuked. It appears from his post here that Alwayssilver didn't do that. Of course it's possible that I'm wrong about that policy, but I'd have bet money that only the OP can ask to have an entire thread deleted.

I'd be interested to know the mods' reasoning on this as well.

alwayssilver
04-05-2007, 03:47 PM
Oh I'd also like to mention that the thread started out rocky in the beginning too. Again not mentioning names, but the sarcasm directed at my thread did sort of cheese me off a little. But I regained my cool.

alwayssilver
04-05-2007, 03:48 PM
I don't think this was it. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) only the original poster of a thread can request to have the whole thing nuked. It appears from his post here that Alwayssilver didn't do that. Of course it's possible that I'm wrong about that policy, but I'd have bet money that only the OP can ask to have an entire thread deleted.

I'd be interested to know the mods' reasoning on this as well.

No I was offline when it got deleted.

Icycle
04-05-2007, 03:52 PM
I read what everyone said, but even though the poster you refer to did get loud, he did make several great points.

And lastly I feel that posters heart was in the right place. And I just think he needs to breath more when posting.

I don't call him a troll because I dispute the validity of his arguments, but simply because the tone and style of his postings seemed to be intentionally provocative, seemly intended to incite a flamewar. Some people are intentionally trolls because they get a kick out of sowing discontent. Others are unintentional trolls because their posting style simply comes across as inflamatory or confrontational.

Redmage
04-05-2007, 03:54 PM
And I did notice Redmage called the youtube clip a fairytale. Whether or not the validity of the clip itself was real or not, doesnít' make the occurrence inaccurate.As far as I know, calling the clip a fairy tale (which I still think it is) isn't a personal attack.

But, just to clarify, my point there was that Cid presented it as though it proved his point, and it simply didn't. There was no indication that it was anything other than fiction. Yet as I said in another post even if every word of it was true, it no more demonstrated the scope of the problem than CSI demonstrates how often people are killed in fetish clubs.

Accepting this sort of media dramatization as "proof" is exactly the sort of thing I was pointing to when I said that people were letting fictional accounts and anecdotal evidence overwhelm their critical thinking skills.

But, I don't want to rehash the whole thread here. I'm still curious to know why it was deleted. Even the posts I disagreed with deserved better than that.

alwayssilver
04-05-2007, 04:07 PM
As far as I know, calling the clip a fairy tale (which I still think it is) isn't a personal attack.

But, just to clarify, my point there was that Cid presented it as though it proved his point, and it simply didn't. There was no indication that it was anything other than fiction. Yet as I said in another post even if every word of it was true, it no more demonstrated the scope of the problem than CSI demonstrates how often people are killed in fetish clubs.

Accepting this sort of media dramatization as "proof" is exactly the sort of thing I was pointing to when I said that people were letting fictional accounts and anecdotal evidence overwhelm their critical thinking skills.

But, I don't want to rehash the whole thread here. I'm still curious to know why it was deleted. Even the posts I disagreed with deserved better than that.

But just because you believe it wasn't real doesn't make the actual incident untrue. I notice you compared the seriousness of the topic to CSI, and you compared the abductions to being struck by lightning, I think this argument deserves better than that. I agree with what Cid said, just because the statistics say your more likely to be abducted from someone you know offline, doesn't mean being abducted online isn't a serious problem. I too saw the program where people naked walked into a house expecting to see a 16 year old girl.

Anyways thatís my two cents. I have things to do, E-Zines to write. Iím glad I could help some out with my thread! Take care!

Cid
04-05-2007, 04:38 PM
Well well! I'm thinking about starting a fan club. Compared to the people who PM me agreeing with what I'm saying, next to the people who don't agree... well... lol... What's the point of comparing. People see your posts telling them, parents, what someone who doesn't have kids considers a problem for their children. Well now I'm calm. I'm taking several deep breaths.

BUT!

I wasn't the only one using naughty words. So if you want to point fingers at the trouble causers I suggest you stand in front of a mirror while doing it. I'm not the only one who caused that thread to be deleted, we ALL played a part in that.

Oh and incase anyones curious I'm 25% newbie, and 3% troll. I say what people wish they had the nerve to say.

Cid
04-05-2007, 04:42 PM
Oh and Icycle if everyone was ignoring what I was saying than why is it I'm on everyones mind? Am I just THAT popular?

Cid
04-05-2007, 04:51 PM
I've got to weigh in on this, because I'm frustrated, too. People disagreed on the topic, but I thought all but one of them did so in a constructive, polite, and thoughtful way.

I would appreciate an explanation for the moderator's decision. From my perspective, only one of two things (possibly both) could have happened here:

1) Requesting to have the thread deleted was a way for one side of this argument to silence the other. Requesting moderator intervention becomes a way to torch the land once debate is lost.

2) The troll won. At least half a dozen people with lengthy histories of worthwhile posting got their contributions deleted because one newbie couldn't follow the rules of civil discussion.

I really don't like the implications of this. The ones I see are:

1) Authentic discussion is discouraged. If a thread with all the polite and worthwhile discussion that was taking place on this thread could be deleted in its entirety, that suggests that we should avoid any expression of a divergent point of view. If a person who doesn't like what you have to say can get it deleted, then what's the point?

2) Reporting of problem posts is discouraged. There are a couple of posts in the current thread about youth and sexual responsbility that I think contain clear Golden Rule violations, but I certainly don't want to be responsible for that entire thread being deleted just because one of the usual troublemakers couldn't stay to the proper side of civil.

BTW, didn't we used to have a "Report Post" button? If the only way to report a problem post now is to report the thread, that's certainly would tend to lead to deleting the entire thread rather than pinpointing the source of the problem.

I really do appreciate everything you moderators do to keep this forum running. Still, I simply can't let this call go in silence - I think it deserves an explanation. Thank you for your time.

My aim wasn't to get this topic deleted, only to inform and express my opinion. I WON the moment I opened my mouth, I WON the moment I spoke my mind, and I WON when I didn't back down.

isabeau
04-05-2007, 04:55 PM
My aim wasn't to get this topic deleted, only to inform and express my opinion. I WON the moment I opened my mouth, I WON the moment I spoke my mind, and I WON when I didn't back down.

i agree with you..you were winning the argument..some people just won't admit when they are wrong...i always admit when i'm wrong..

aun_existe_amor
04-05-2007, 05:54 PM
LOL This thread will get deleted too.

I hold my hands up to getting annoyed with certain posts and posters because I felt patronised. If I feel that someone is patronising me it's like showing red to a bull. Maybe no one intentionally patronised me, I don't know but that is the way I felt.

It's not very nice to call someone a troll just because they speak their mind or have an opinion which differs to yours.

Lets all move onto another thread, maybe we'll agree on something there. I don't hold any grudges. I have nothing against anyone on that thread. I hope no one has anything against me either.

Cid
04-05-2007, 06:30 PM
Well I'm going to wash my hands of this.

:justlips: :justlips: :justlips:

kisses!

Icycle
04-05-2007, 06:31 PM
LOL This thread will get deleted too.
Sigh... I fear that may be true.


I hold my hands up to getting annoyed with certain posts and posters because I felt patronised. If I feel that someone is patronising me it's like showing red to a bull. Maybe no one intentionally patronised me, I don't know but that is the way I felt.
I can't speak for everyone on that thread, but I'm pretty certain that Lindy, Redmage, and I were not intending to patronize you. I respect your feelings on that matter, but I really think that wasn't our intent.


It's not very nice to call someone a troll just because they speak their mind or have an opinion which differs to yours.
It was meant as an observation, not an insult. I was using in the Internet sense, not the monster under the bridge sense. To quote the jargonfile, a troll is someone who "regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks...for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion." It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with their opinion, but rather it has to do with posting in a style and tone that seems to be intentionally inflamatory and confrontational. For example, without naming names, there are people here on the TMF P&R forum whose politics I agree with, but who I would call trolls.


Lets all move onto another thread, maybe we'll agree on something there. I don't hold any grudges. I have nothing against anyone on that thread. I hope no one has anything against me either.
I can assure you that I hold nothing against you or anyone on the old thread. I didn't intend to start this thread as a forum for rehashing the arguments, disagreements, and personality conflicts of the previous thread. I was hoping to discuss the greater problem of entire threads getting deleted by the moderators.

I would still be very interested in know why the entire thread was deleted. Many of us, including you aun_existe_amor, put a lot thought and time into our postings on that thread, and now it is all gone. We may not be able to bring that thread back, and it might even be advisable to do so, as tempers still seem to be running hot. But it would be very good to understand what happened here so we can avoid having it happen again. I've been on one too many deleted threads.

What happened on that thread that was so terrible that it required the nuclear option? Or was it simply easier to nuke the whole thread than tease out a few inflamatory comments here and there? Should we really throw away the 95% good content with the 5% bad? Do the mods really want us to report to them every single comment that might possibly be taken the wrong way by someone? But if by doing so, are we simply risking another entirely deleted thread? Do we need to recurit a few more mods to spread the work around a little bit? Can the mods consider less drastic actions, like temporarily locking the thread or warning or locking users who are causing problems?

aun_existe_amor
04-05-2007, 06:50 PM
The way you descibe trolls, I'd say that Viper was one on that thread. If it was deleted because of a troll, I'd say he was it. I doubt that is the reason it was deleted though.

Mimi
04-05-2007, 08:18 PM
The thread was reported by numerous forum members within a very short amount of time. I was the only moderator online when they came in, and I only had a short window to deal with it before having to leave the house. The final page of the thread alone when I took it down was filled with flaming and cussing and insults being thrown in every direction, and very little actual discussion was taking place at that time. I felt something had to be done quickly before it escalated even further out of control, and a full edit to the entire thread would have taken a considerable amount of time which I did not have when I reached it. So I pulled it down and left it to be discussed among the staff on what the best way to handle the thread would be. Not enough of the staff has been able to weigh in just yet, so nothing had been done with it yet.

If many of you truly feel the thread was of merit and a good discussion was taking place, I will go in and edit out all posts containing flames and heated attacks and then return it to the general discussion forum. If I do so, however, and it begins to fill up once more with the same cuss filled garbage that I yanked it for this morning, I will take it down again without question and will not be returning it. I suggest those of you who were unable to control yourselves from spewing flames across the thread the first time around gain better control of your tempers and learn to debate with a bit more tact this time around for the benefit of all involved in the discussion.

sabaki
04-05-2007, 08:37 PM
If many of you truly feel the thread was of merit and a good discussion was taking place, I will go in and edit out all posts containing flames and heated attacks and then return it to the general discussion forum.
I think the thread had merit and I saw many people making good points. I saw only a couple insults the last time I looked at it.

Removing random flames may be a good idea. But if you edit out all the heated attacks, then the thread will lose context. Many sensible things were said in response to such posts, and that sense will be damaged if such posts are removed.

Also, a mean post, though it can upset the reader for a moment, does no lasting harm. In some sense it's actually beneficial because it warns us which people are meanspirited and allows us to use the ignore feature of the bulletin board if we wish. If the posts are removed from public view that information is lost. The people who said the very worst things have it stricken from their record, so to speak, with no consequences. And the ignore feature is rendered useless.

Why would the people who reported the thread not simply have ignored the users whose posts they found offensive?

Dave2112
04-05-2007, 09:27 PM
As Mimi has stated, there are times when a very large thread cannot be edited on the spot, either because of time or questions that require the whole Staff.

Let me make a couple of things clear. We do not pull threads just because people are arguing in them. If that's what anyone is going to try and do to get a thread removed, it's not going to work. And, it's going to make the Mods look very closely at you when you are involved in long threads. (Not directed at anyone in particular here, just a statement of fact.)

Second thing. We seem to have this discussion every time a long thread does get pulled for one reason or another. We say the same things, we explain the same policies, and then have to do it all over again the next time. Those of you who have been around for awhile know the drill. We Mods are few. The Forum is very large. Our time is often limited. We make mistakes. (I'm not saying a mistake was made in this instance, far from it. What was done was done for good reason.)

The topic of large threads with flaming in them being removed gets revisited quite often. Here's the bottom line. If it benefits the Forum as a whole to have something like that removed (and this is after all other avenues have been exhausted), it simply has to be that way. In this instance, didn't those who were involved in the thread get just about everything they were going to get out of it? It seemed to be about six or seven people involved. Out of the whole Forum. Yes, it was initially beneficial...and I think the benefit exhausted itself once the "Fuck You"s started flying.

We will always try to do the best we can when it comes to leaving threads intact. But, we will never discourage people from reporting posts they feel need Moderator attention, as some have suggested in one way or another. This allows the community to help police itself when our small numbers are occasionaly overwhelmed. If you look at the boards across the Internet, I think we do a pretty good job of balancing Forum control with member freedoms. And regardless of what people may tell you, it's a constant fine line to walk.

Icycle
04-05-2007, 10:26 PM
I have a techinal question for the moderators: When temporarily or permanently removing a thread, is it possible to at least put a placeholder that says something like "This thread has been temporarily removed due to abusive content"? It would be a bit friendlier than simply having the thread disappear without explanation.

Icycle
04-05-2007, 10:45 PM
The thread was reported by numerous forum members within a very short amount of time. I was the only moderator online when they came in, and I only had a short window to deal with it before having to leave the house. The final page of the thread alone when I took it down was filled with flaming and cussing and insults being thrown in every direction, and very little actual discussion was taking place at that time. I felt something had to be done quickly before it escalated even further out of control, and a full edit to the entire thread would have taken a considerable amount of time which I did not have when I reached it. So I pulled it down and left it to be discussed among the staff on what the best way to handle the thread would be. Not enough of the staff has been able to weigh in just yet, so nothing had been done with it yet.

Mimi, thank you for the explanation. I do understand that being a moderator is a tough job, with so much to do and so few moderators.

It sounds like during the 12 hours so that I was gone from the thread things had escalated dramatically to point that things and devolved into cussing, insults, and profanity with no more constructive dialogue and discussion. That is why I was so confused and upset. When I left, things were interesting and on a low simmer, and I when I came back, the thread was simply gone without explanation.


If many of you truly feel the thread was of merit and a good discussion was taking place, I will go in and edit out all posts containing flames and heated attacks and then return it to the general discussion forum. If I do so, however, and it begins to fill up once more with the same cuss filled garbage that I yanked it for this morning, I will take it down again without question and will not be returning it. I suggest those of you who were unable to control yourselves from spewing flames across the thread the first time around gain better control of your tempers and learn to debate with a bit more tact this time around for the benefit of all involved in the discussion.
I do strongly feel like there was a significant amount of quality content and discussion in the thread, and that the quality content on both sides outweighed the flames and insults. I would hate to see all of the hard work and thoughts of those people simply disappear forever.

However, I'm not sure how much more new productive discussion was going to come out of that thread. Sometimes I am surprised by how much discussion can be squeezed out of a thread though. In this case, I see even from postings in this thread that tempers might still be running kind of hot, and the the other thread might be at risk of decending back into a flame war.

Perhaps as a compromise, we could bring the thread back, with the offending posts from this morning removed, but have the thread locked against new posts. Then people can still benefit from reading what people already had to say, people's posting history is preserved, and everyone's hard work and thoughts are not wasted.

Icycle
04-05-2007, 11:07 PM
Second thing. We seem to have this discussion every time a long thread does get pulled for one reason or another. We say the same things, we explain the same policies, and then have to do it all over again the next time. Those of you who have been around for awhile know the drill. We Mods are few. The Forum is very large. Our time is often limited. We make mistakes. (I'm not saying a mistake was made in this instance, far from it. What was done was done for good reason.)
I'm still a relative newbie around here, having been only posting for a bit less than a year, so I haven't really been involved in this discussion before.

I really do understand that there are very few moderators for a very large forum. And I do understand that it is a hard job to keep things from decending into a morass of flamewars.

As for this particular thread, I will have to take your word for it that it deserved to be pulled (or at least parts of it), since I never saw the part where it truly decended into chaos.

However, I still strongly feel like pulling a thread is a nuclear option that should only be used very rarely and as a last resort. It feels a bit like the "memory hole" from 1984. I put a lot of thought, care, and research into each of my posts, and it is very upsetting when they vanish without a trace. It's a like a little floppy disk with the only copy of my essays has been run over with a magnet. Can't we consider less destructive options, like locking the thread temporarily or permanently? Would have a few more volunteer moderators help out?


The topic of large threads with flaming in them being removed gets revisited quite often. Here's the bottom line. If it benefits the Forum as a whole to have something like that removed (and this is after all other avenues have been exhausted), it simply has to be that way. In this instance, didn't those who were involved in the thread get just about everything they were going to get out of it? It seemed to be about six or seven people involved. Out of the whole Forum. Yes, it was initially beneficial...and I think the benefit exhausted itself once the "Fuck You"s started flying.

I feel like a thread has benefit not only in the moment as part of an ongoing discussion. I also feel like it has benefit as a historical record. I do occasionally look at the past posting histories of various TMF members to see what they are like, what kinds of thing they like to talk about, what their opinions are on various topics, how they write, etc. When a thread is deleted, it leaves important gaps in the historical record.

For the current thread in question, sure there were perhaps six or eight highly active participants in the discussion, but based on the number of views of the thread, there were probably a large number of lurkers as well. And if the thread is revived, who knows how many people would access the posts in the thread when viewing peoples posting histories, or searching the forum?

I wouldn't go quite as far as sabaki in supporting unfettered free speech on the forums. I would certainly support removing outright profanity, direct insults, and outright flames. But I really don't want to have to throw out the 90%+ of good, productive discussion with those few offensive posts.


We will always try to do the best we can when it comes to leaving threads intact. But, we will never discourage people from reporting posts they feel need Moderator attention, as some have suggested in one way or another. This allows the community to help police itself when our small numbers are occasionaly overwhelmed. If you look at the boards across the Internet, I think we do a pretty good job of balancing Forum control with member freedoms. And regardless of what people may tell you, it's a constant fine line to walk.

As someone who posts relatively few posts, but puts a lot of thought and effort into each one, I have to admit, I do have reservations about reporting a violation to a moderator for a thread in which I am participating. If deleting the thread is a possibility, I would rather hope that the offense goes unnnoticed and unreported, that have all of my hard work wiped out. Or worse yet, I might be tempted to simply not bother posting thoughtful posts, or posting on controversial topics, because why bother spending the time if it's just going to get removed?

sabaki
04-05-2007, 11:41 PM
I wouldn't go quite as far as sabaki in supporting unfettered free speech on the forums. I would certainly support removing outright profanity, direct insults, and outright flames.
*double take* Er, uh, what?

No, just to be clear, I am for removing posts in a number of instances: if they are insults that are totally off-topic and thus whose removal would not harm context; if they are libel, and thus likely to continue to misinform as long as they stand; if they are complete gibberish, and thus a waste of data storage.

Even if it's removed, IMO, some placeholder should remain so we can see that the person said it. I completely agree with your image of the memory hole, and about the importance of keeping a record.

Not that my opinion matters at all, nor do I claim it should (since I'm not paying for the TMF) -- I just wanted to be clear.

LindyHopper
04-05-2007, 11:59 PM
The thread was reported by numerous forum members within a very short amount of time. I was the only moderator online when they came in, and I only had a short window to deal with it before having to leave the house. The final page of the thread alone when I took it down was filled with flaming and cussing and insults being thrown in every direction, and very little actual discussion was taking place at that time. I felt something had to be done quickly before it escalated even further out of control, and a full edit to the entire thread would have taken a considerable amount of time which I did not have when I reached it. So I pulled it down and left it to be discussed among the staff on what the best way to handle the thread would be. Not enough of the staff has been able to weigh in just yet, so nothing had been done with it yet.
Thank you for the explanation, Mimi, and for your effort in cleaning up the thread. I'd missed the entirety of the ugliness you describe on the last page. It sounds like a lot of us did.

As a matter of future practice, when temporarily removing a problem thread, would it make sense to start a new thread in the same forum titled something like, "Google stalker thread temporarily removed, pending moderation" (locked to any replies, of course ;) )? This Suggestions thread, and all the next page of discussion, only happened because people were confused and frustrated that they didn't know what was going on. A placeholder with a one-line explanation for what happened to the thread would save you the trouble of having to come over here and deal with the confusion, in addition to the actual problem.


If many of you truly feel the thread was of merit and a good discussion was taking place, I will go in and edit out all posts containing flames and heated attacks and then return it to the general discussion forum. If I do so, however, and it begins to fill up once more with the same cuss filled garbage that I yanked it for this morning, I will take it down again without question and will not be returning it. I suggest those of you who were unable to control yourselves from spewing flames across the thread the first time around gain better control of your tempers and learn to debate with a bit more tact this time around for the benefit of all involved in the discussion.
Thank you again for your effort in editing out the flames. :bowing: Nevertheless, I still feel uncomfortable that if the same people start flaming again, the whole thread will be removed, again, this time permanently. The people who were posting politely and constructively will be no more at fault the second time around than they were the first time, and they will still have their meaningful contributions deleted as a result of other people's irresponsibility.


The topic of large threads with flaming in them being removed gets revisited quite often. Here's the bottom line. If it benefits the Forum as a whole to have something like that removed (and this is after all other avenues have been exhausted), it simply has to be that way. In this instance, didn't those who were involved in the thread get just about everything they were going to get out of it? It seemed to be about six or seven people involved. Out of the whole Forum. Yes, it was initially beneficial...and I think the benefit exhausted itself once the "Fuck You"s started flying.
I understand and agree with the general policy. And I agree that the profanity added no benefit to the discussion. However, I don't believe it erased the benefit of the rest of the thread. No matter what happened on page 6, the start of the thread was a useful public service announcement, and a productive discussion about risk assessment. Those things would still be true if someone stumbed across this thread and started reading it a year from now.

Thus, I believe the preferred course of action, in nearly all cases, would be to delete the offending posts, and then lock the thread. That preserves the quality content up to that point, and eliminates the possibility that any more flames can be spread on that thread. In fact, in this particular situation, I would vote for locking, because as you observed, most of us have already said what we wanted to say. And then I wouldn't have to worry that the same troublemakers are going to start up again, leading to the permanent removal of the content that I've been lobbying to protect.

Once again, thank you for all your time and effort. It does not go unappreciated. :bowing:

simulated
04-06-2007, 12:03 AM
Look at me, look at me, look at me!

*slap*

Cid
04-06-2007, 12:15 AM
The original posters intent went unappreciated, the so called SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT went unappreciated until you found your so called INTELLEGENT POSTS no longer in their place. That's why the first few posts were filled with sarcasm. You know trolls don't always have to use swearing, or be insulting. You only considered me a troll because I hurt your wee feelings, but in all honesty I couldn't care less. Like you said Lindy I said what I wanted to say, just because YOU or REDMAGE, or anyone else consider me a troll doesn't mean I didn't make valid points. You see it was the parting of the ocean, the trembling of the earth, or the booming sounds of thunder that drew me to this post after Redmage posted, I saw the word Google and a smile cracked my lips. It looked like this. :)

I found it funny you guys cry about insults when you were throwing around quiet a few yourselves. That troll, and newbie thing hurt my feelings. I mean it... there could have been tears. lol.

If the original post is resurrected I have every intention to post, and I don't plan on backing down.

LindyHopper
04-06-2007, 01:13 AM
I wasn't the only one using naughty words. So if you want to point fingers at the trouble causers I suggest you stand in front of a mirror while doing it. I'm not the only one who caused that thread to be deleted, we ALL played a part in that.
I have to respectfully disagree. I've been posting on controversial topics since I first arrived at the TMF, and to the best of my knowledge, I've never had a post edited or removed by a moderator. This remains true on the Google stalking thread - all of my posts remain untouched. You may not have been the only one using profanity, but it is inaccurate to say that we all were responsible for what happened.

In contrast, as of this moment, you have posted 86 times, and only 29 remain standing. I've also seen enough of these posts, before they were deleted, to have some idea of why they were removed. To me, this indicates that you're consistently looking for trouble, or at least are awfully good at finding it: hence, "troll." I apologize if the label seems harsh, but you oughtn't blame me for the way you are being perceived, as it is based on your own actions, and nothing else.


Oh and incase anyones curious I'm 25% newbie, and 3% troll. I say what people wish they had the nerve to say.
Based on the data I've cited above, it appears to be more like 66% troll. ;) But in all seriousness, I appreciate your desire to express yourself honestly. Nevertheless - and I say this not to be hurtful, but only to help - if you're going to make a worthwhile contribution to this forum, you're going to need to learn to rein yourself in. It is possible to express your ideas in a powerful manner without resorting to profanity and personal attacks. It takes a little practice (or a lot), but it's well worth doing. I hope you'll consider it. :)

Cid
04-06-2007, 01:44 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. I've been posting on controversial topics since I first arrived at the TMF, and to the best of my knowledge, I've never had a post edited or removed by a moderator. This remains true on the Google stalking thread - all of my posts remain untouched. You may not have been the only one using profanity, but it is inaccurate to say that we all were responsible for what happened.

In contrast, as of this moment, you have posted 86 times, and only 29 remain standing. I've also seen enough of these posts, before they were deleted, to have some idea of why they were removed. To me, this indicates that you're consistently looking for trouble, or at least are awfully good at finding it: hence, "troll." I apologize if the label seems harsh, but you oughtn't blame me for the way you are being perceived, as it is based on your own actions, and nothing else.


Based on the data I've cited above, it appears to be more like 66% troll. ;) But in all seriousness, I appreciate your desire to express yourself honestly. Nevertheless - and I say this not to be hurtful, but only to help - if you're going to make a worthwhile contribution to this forum, you're going to need to learn to rein yourself in. It is possible to express your ideas in a powerful manner without resorting to profanity and personal attacks. It takes a little practice (or a lot), but it's well worth doing. I hope you'll consider it. :)

I've been around since 2001 and until this very user name I haven't had any of my posts deleted as well. And with all due respect I couldn't really care less what your opinion on me is. You might not say anything harsh enough to get your posts deleted, but you are no less a troll than I am. The only difference between me and you is your clique. I said something against Redmage, and his clique came to his defense. Hell look at what simulated said. If this guy had posted in that thread you wouldn't even bat an eyelash, Viper told everyone who agreed with me paranoid, yet I'm labeled the Troll.

You think your posting thought provoking posts, but it's merely you repeating everything Redmage says, your a parrot nothing more. Redmage has a funny way of thinking. He opens his mouth and nothing but truths spill forth, you agree, and so does Icycle. But not because he's right, hell you might even disagree, but you stand up for him for one simple reason. And we both know that reason don't we?

I've seen Redmage's posts in the past I know how he works. If I was calm and collective he would have been more sarcastic and rude, if I had been rude myself he would have taken the moral high road. Which he did, YOU said what he couldn't. I also noticed he had a funny way of dismissing certain things, and ignoring other facts. And we all know why, I'm not the only one saying this about him, you, or Icycle. So this isn't just one guy making trouble, this is one guy stating the obvious. Or beating a dead horse as it were.

You ALL are just as responsible for that post being deleted than I was. I know this little thread, you mention me, it all stems from several factors not just what I said. Viper was more the troll than I was, you probably even consider what I'm saying here as trolling.

You call me a newbie as well, I'm wondering what exactly makes me a newbie? I don't have as many posts as you? Or this username isn't as old as yours? Is that what makes me a newbie?

simulated
04-06-2007, 02:08 AM
Hell look at what simulated said. If this guy had posted in that thread you wouldn't even bat an eyelash,

Probably not, no. The world just isn't fair.


You think your posting thought provoking posts, but it's merely you repeating everything Redmage says, your a parrot nothing more.

You obviously haven't known the woman for that long ;)


Redmage has a funny way of thinking. He opens his mouth and nothing but truths spill forth

I'm glad you noticed, thats why I like him too.


you stand up for him for one simple reason. And we both know that reason don't we?

Because they're both well read, intelligent individuals :confused:


I also noticed he had a funny way of dismissing certain things, and ignoring other facts. And we all know why, I'm not the only one saying this about him, you, or Icycle. So this isn't just one guy making trouble, this is one guy stating the obvious. Or beating a dead horse as it were.

You and drew could start a fan club!


You ALL are just as responsible for that post being deleted than I was.

Not true. If you hadn't posted at all in that thread, it would have never devolved into the state it did.


you probably even consider what I'm saying here as trolling.

No, this is the best you've done since the start of the other thread. It's ok to be wrong, just be respecful about it.


You call me a newbie as well, I'm wondering what exactly makes me a newbie? I don't have as many posts as you? Or this username isn't as old as yours? Is that what makes me a newbie?

The correct term would probably be noob, actually, though that convention doesn't seem to be followed here. Your inability to grasp the finer points of the issue, combined with (iirc) gratuitous use of the SHIFT KEY and a debating style which brings to mind images of a drunken irishman are what made you the noob in that thread.

Cid
04-06-2007, 02:11 AM
Sorry... But I'm not going to bother reading your post. You see your a troll, and trolls are ignored.

Cid
04-06-2007, 02:12 AM
Are you waiting for me to say something? OR are you waiting for someone? Lindy? Icy? Can't say anything without more members of your clique?

Oh! And you should be ashamed to let someone like Simulated stand up for you. He's breaking your rules. The ones you like to break on ocassion

Cid
04-06-2007, 02:14 AM
Just us Icycle. You started it... Got enough gull to finish it?

Myriads
04-06-2007, 02:20 AM
The behavior directly above is a good example of what we here on the TMF call trolling. Don't do it. It's a GR violation.

The user has been banned from GenDis as a result of it. This is due to repeated violations. His sockpuppet will get a similar ban if it starts to act the same.

Further personal attacks in this thread will end up in more bans as needed. I suggest moving on.

Myriads

Cid
04-06-2007, 02:23 AM
Well this post was directed not only towards the deletion of said post, but me as well. Excuse me if I did exactly what was expected. I'm sure what you said Myriads was directed directly at me, if you wish to ban me do so, but don't pretend I'm the only one at fault.

simulated
04-06-2007, 02:33 AM
The behavior directly above is a good example of what we here on the TMF call trolling. Don't do it. It's a GR violation.

The user has been banned from GenDis as a result of it. This is due to repeated violations. His sockpuppet will get a similar ban if it starts to act the same.

Further personal attacks in this thread will end up in more bans as needed. I suggest moving on.

Myriads

:twohugs:

LindyHopper
04-06-2007, 04:33 AM
The behavior directly above is a good example of what we here on the TMF call trolling. Don't do it. It's a GR violation.

The user has been banned from GenDis as a result of it. This is due to repeated violations. His sockpuppet will get a similar ban if it starts to act the same.

Further personal attacks in this thread will end up in more bans as needed. I suggest moving on.

Myriads
Thank you for taking action on this matter. It's gratifying to be able to trust our moderators to see a situation for what it really is.

I do have a question though. A longtime TMF member created "Cid" for the express purpose of spreading a great deal of hostility without endangering his own "good" name. And he has used similar strategies several times in the past. Given that you know who it is, and that "Cid" is merely an false face for him, why do you ban the puppet, and not the puppetmaster?

I'm not asking for anything to happen here, I'm really just curious. It seems to me like the policy of banning the mask instead of the human being behind it would only feed into his Multiple Personality Disorder. :D

Once again, thank you for your prompt attention to a pretty crazy situation.

LindyHopper

Cid
04-06-2007, 05:00 AM
I ain't petty. But I'm through here.

Myriads
04-06-2007, 12:53 PM
When I issue a ban it's always a last resort solution.

Linking puppets to accounts is more an art then a science. Unless I feel very confident that two accounts are linked I will not issue multiple bans. I'd rather err on allowing annoyance, then knocking out someone accidently.

However socks often cause me to step up to high level IP bans that shut off providers if the accounts cause enough issues, having the side effect of clocking all the socks co-accounts.

I'll add that engaging in debate with such accounts does not help us at all, and increases our workload. Ignore them.

Myriads

Speedbump
04-09-2007, 01:20 AM
Hi guys.

Cid
04-12-2007, 01:15 PM
The list of threats here prove how low these people will sink to protect these people. And not only that, but prominant members of the TMF, who are loved and worshiped are the ones who spouted these threats. And as childish as these threats are, how sad and pathetic they are, people still stand by these guys. The threat about the "Connections" are being spouted by an old man who honestly believes he has the power to have people thrown off the internet. Not the TMF, but the internet as a whole! Can you believe that? I mean the story section itself is filled with swearing, and acts of forced orgasms, yet I say a few things against this guy and now I have the internet police breathing down my neck. He said when he first issued this threat I would be off in a few weeks. 2 to be exact. Well here I am! He said he had others thrown off the internet, yet they are still here. Yet he's popular on this site, I made sure everyone saw his threats, yet I still remained the troll. And the threat about the mafia? I remember in grade school that used to be a threat amongst us kids, that and "My dad's going to come to school and beat you up." That one was scarier than the mafia threat. Yet I remained the troll.

Yet! I'm getting IM's from people who agree with me. I've gotten IM's from people who agree with me on each, and every post I've made.

Is there something that happens on the TMF that effects people this much? To make people think they have so much power, so much control! Or is it sad people going to another site on the internet? People look their noses down at me because they don't like what I have to say. Well all I can say is too bad.

That's all I have to say for now.

Cid
04-12-2007, 10:30 PM
Oh I reported them. But it was just a waste of time, a waste of my time to do so. Actually I wouldn't mind hearing why these guys and gals used those kinds of threats against me.

And why one of those old timers still hold by it. Like the connections thing. He said I'm being investigated, how many people in the world are there that use the internet? Millions? Billions? And if people were really being investigated online why are they only investigated people who swear in a PM and in threads on a fetish site dedicated to tickling? The world we live in shows there are more important things to investigate than a few cussers on a fetish site. Secondly if such an organization exsists, and people could complain about the swearing online wouldn't it take years to investigate me? I mean wouldn't billions of people be ahead of me? Or does his connections go straight to the top? lol. Lastly if people were investigated so quickly as this guy implies than wouldn't the internet be a pretty scarce place to be in? And secondly do you think any of us would still be here on the TMF?

My last question goes to this man... If I actually believed this crap, and I stayed away from the TMF and I found myself still online, than what would you have accomplished? Keeping me away for a few months? Next time you threaten someone, and that goes to the chick who threatened me with the mafia, make sure your threats have a little weight behind them. Don't BS me thinking I'm stupid. You might think of me as a troll, but I'm not a stupid troll.

In case anyones wondering I did press these questions to this man, and he couldn't answer. He actually refused to answer. It was so sad and pathetic. I actually feel sorry for this elderly old fart who has to make threats like this just to feel important.

ChosenofMystra
04-13-2007, 12:03 AM
I agree about the clique thing going on here. If you're not with the "in" crowd or if you're friends with someone the clique doesn't like, then you're not worth talking to. Its one of the reasons I don't come here much these days, I got tired of the high and mighty attitude and realized I wasn't having fun anymore having to choose between friends. Its a load of bull to be honest.

Cid
04-13-2007, 12:28 AM
I agree about the clique thing going on here. If you're not with the "in" crowd or if you're friends with someone the clique doesn't like, then you're not worth talking to. Its one of the reasons I don't come here much these days, I got tired of the high and mighty attitude and realized I wasn't having fun anymore having to choose between friends. Its a load of bull to be honest.

The sad thing is it doesn't matter how low these people sink, and sad and pathetic they seem they will still be held in the lime light. People will jump at every opportunity they can to protect these people. Your right, I came here 2001 had no problems because I didn't stick my neck out, and the second I do the people I used to admire show their true colors. The guy who threatened me with his connections. I liked that guy, and the girl with her mafia. Heck I looked at her like she was someone famous on the site, but the second I said something they didn't like I suddenly became a troll. Is there a difference between them and me? Aren't they just members like the rest of us? Well apparently they aren't.

Your right though, the TMF has become a pretty bad place to come to, but thankfully there are enough forums out there that we can go to and enjoy. In my opinion Tickling Theater is a lot better than the TMF. I don't know if they were around longer or not, but it doesn't matter, I think they are better. A lot friendlier, and I also think the mods and admins are impartial there as well. Where a blind eye isn't turned to certain members, members who can say and do as they damn well please.

Here's a great point, everyone knows the first post I posted on. I'm sure most of you have done enough checks on me to find out all you can on me. That guy created a thread in the tickling discussion, and it belonged in the personals. I'm not sure how long it stayed there, but that's not the point. 5 posts around it had been moved because they were in the wrong section of the site, yet that remained. So... the question is is why? Some one made the excuse that the personal section didn't get as much action as someone would hope, but that didn't make it alright for the member, or members who had created those 5 posts that were moved.

Look at this thread here. Everyone mentioned me, not by name until the very end. And yet it's ok. What I said was considered trolling, what everyone else did was considered... noble? What? I don't get it. I really don't. Heck I have friends tell me they received pm's by people until they mentioned they agreed with what I said, suddenly those members became defensive and didn't send any more.

Heck I'm not saying it's all about me, it's only coming down on me. The proof is here. The proof is coming from those people brave enough to say 'Hey we know this site is controlled by cliques.' And the proof is always down at the bottom of the main page. I find it funny when there are 400 members online next to 700 guests. I'm thinking we might have 1100 members if we didn't let this site be controlled by cliques. Do you guys even wonder what kind of people your keeping from posting with your cliques? What kind of brilliant writers, artists, movie makers, or even someone who might have something important to say. No. Well if everyone was forced to follow the rules, if everyone was treated equally.

Wild fantasy I know...

Well I'm done for now.

Iggy pop
04-13-2007, 01:34 AM
The list of threats here prove how low these people will sink to protect these people. And not only that, but prominant members of the TMF, who are loved and worshiped are the ones who spouted these threats. And as childish as these threats are, how sad and pathetic they are, people still stand by these guys. The threat about the "Connections" are being spouted by an old man who honestly believes he has the power to have people thrown off the internet. Not the TMF, but the internet as a whole! Can you believe that? I mean the story section itself is filled with swearing, and acts of forced orgasms, yet I say a few things against this guy and now I have the internet police breathing down my neck. He said when he first issued this threat I would be off in a few weeks. 2 to be exact. Well here I am! He said he had others thrown off the internet, yet they are still here. Yet he's popular on this site, I made sure everyone saw his threats, yet I still remained the troll. And the threat about the mafia? I remember in grade school that used to be a threat amongst us kids, that and "My dad's going to come to school and beat you up." That one was scarier than the mafia threat. Yet I remained the troll.

Yet! I'm getting IM's from people who agree with me. I've gotten IM's from people who agree with me on each, and every post I've made.

Is there something that happens on the TMF that effects people this much? To make people think they have so much power, so much control! Or is it sad people going to another site on the internet? People look their noses down at me because they don't like what I have to say. Well all I can say is too bad.

That's all I have to say for now.

I have to be honest, I have trouble believing this. I have disagreed with tons of people on this forum, and I have only been threatned once. A guy once told me he was going to come over and kick my ass. Long story short: He didn't come over and kick my ass. Now, I have had people call me names and infer stuff about me, but mafia threats never. I have never heard of anyone getting mafia threats before. Do you have any proof? If you do then forward it to a moderator.

Cid
04-13-2007, 07:40 AM
I have to be honest, I have trouble believing this. I have disagreed with tons of people on this forum, and I have only been threatned once. A guy once told me he was going to come over and kick my ass. Long story short: He didn't come over and kick my ass. Now, I have had people call me names and infer stuff about me, but mafia threats never. I have never heard of anyone getting mafia threats before. Do you have any proof? If you do then forward it to a moderator.

Proof I have, and proof admins have recieved.

Myriads
04-13-2007, 01:27 PM
Clarifications:

Cid was banned from P&R not for his actions in one thread, but for an over all pattern of being unable to conduct debate with fellow members over points. He would quickly move to personal attacks, rather then debating the point. Once you start insulting other members in open threads on a regular and consistant basis it's pretty much going to end in a ban if the user will not self-correct.

Here we have a statement, debate the point not the person. Once a 'debate' drops to the personal level it stops being of value, and is simply a slugging match that brings nothing. Users who do this and will not stop after warnings tend to get banned. This is the case that happened here.

None of the PM's presented to me in the above mentioned matter were actionable in my opinion. I suggeted to the user that he place the other user on his ignore list as we always do when such low level PM slap fights seem to happen. I saw no threat of physcial harm being made. I have no idea where the mafia comments have arisen from. I've seen no PM's that refrence mafia action.

I offer an open invitation to any and all of Cid's many supporters who have PM'ed him to drop me a PM and show me their support of him. Or if Cid wishes he can authorise me to log into his account and look at his saved PM files myself to withness the support Or he can foprward sid messages to me. If this issue is indeed as large as he feels, then seeing such material would be highly useful to me in understanding and correcting the issue here.

As for the 'clique' aspect of things, I assume you are speaking about the General discussion, P&R and other general Non-TK forums?

These community forum areas have always, and always will be the focus of social networking. People who spend more time there, and have more outgoing personalities will be known there, and thus carry more weight when they post, if only in the getting of eyeballs department. It's how social forum systems work across the web. It's popularity and volume based.

I don't see this issue in the tickling related forums here. People post media, and it sure seems to get looked at. People ask questions on Tickling Discussion and people seem to answer them. The areas of the TMF that are tickling oriented seem to function pretty well in my opinion. So if you are here to look at material and discuss your fetish then it seems you get a pretty fair hearing.

If it's to social network, then like in any social situation, it's harder to get your foot in the door and meet the 'group'. But I see new people fitting in and making lots of posts, and seeing lots of response all the time, so it does not seem that the clubhouse is closed. It just takes some work.

Myriads

Cid
04-13-2007, 10:46 PM
Sorry, but if they want to let you know who they are, than they can PM you. And Myriads I'm not the only one who recieved the connections threat. And a threat by any nature deserves some action on your part. Putting him on ignore doesn't solve the problem, nor does it end future problems with other members. The fact that you refuse to do anything against this guy only fuels the power he thinks he has.

Iggy pop
04-14-2007, 01:43 AM
Cid sent me one of the pm, and I have to admit it looks like a certain person was(and could still be) trying to intimidate him. The email, however, is kind of vague, and I did not see anything about mafia connections. I have no problem with Cid being banned by a moderators for his actions, but I have a real problem with the threats of background checks and police reports sent through pms. Like I said the email that Cid sent me is vague, so I'm not completely sure that this going in this case, but like I said it is a little suspicions.

Myriads
04-14-2007, 12:23 PM
People seem to be under the impression that nothing was done regarding the the 'leave the net' PM.

While I considered it not actionable, that does not mean that there were not results from it, and the issue has been dealt with, in such a way that it will not repeat.

I love how everyone here is arguing the issue with only fragments of the entire story and how all that happened came to be as it now is.

Here is perspective:

A user with communication issues decided to insult a good portion of P&R in his short time there. At one point with a total posting history of less then 60 posts we had close to two dozen reports on him. And not by just some clique of people, but a wide cross section of users (albite a cross section of P&R). Yes we do pay attention to who reports stuff, and what axes they might be grinding.

This variety of reports showed us that this user has some difficulty in conducting himself in heated areas of debate. Rather then debating the points they would prefer to insult the posters.

You poke enough posters with direct insults and you get retalitary posts and PM's like this user has seen.

None of it is good, None of it builds the sort of site that we want to have.

In cases like this I try to deal with the problem at it's root. In this case the solution was to remove the problem poster from P&R, and to have words with the people that retaliated against his insults in threads or PM's.

In my eyes this solved the issue, and hopefully headed off future ones.

My other option? Ban about 20% of P&R's regular posters for various retalitary reactions that in my opinion were provoked. Not an outcome that I felt served the forum or the membership. Like it or not that's the call I made. Solve the root issue directly, and try and make sure the secondary resulting issues do not repeat. It seemed the way to go.

There are days when I wonder what all of you expect of us.

We've built a site for you to share your fetish, and get free media to get off with. We've provided you with ways to interact and actully meet other people who get their jollies from what you do. And you pay the princly sum of nothing to use it. And it's all kept spam and pretty insult free by an unpaid staff of people, who if they get the same sort of mail I do, get regularly insulted, threatened, and generaly treated like shit for trying to do something for a community. Yet they do keep doing it with almost zero complaints.

I'm amazed that so much of our resources go to caring for a sub-forum that has nothing to do with the reason our site is here. I'm amazed that so many users manage to ruin their own enjoyment of the rest of the site over the stuff that goes on in there. I'm boggled that people feel a need to get into debates about P&R stuff here on a tickling forum. There are far better venues on the web for such. If it's that sort of discussion you crave I highly suggest trying them. You'll get much more out of them then here.

There seem to be a fair number of people here who are unhappy with the TMF. I regret that. I've always said that the forum is not going to be a good fit for everyone, and thankfully there are many other fine tickling related discussion sites that might be. Each offers a different feeling community. Perhaps those will be more to taste should we no longer suit.

Myriads

RobAce
04-14-2007, 12:43 PM
Ok I followed my rule here. I saw this and wanted to reply myself about situations, but before posting something that could be misunderstood or make people upset I waited 24 hours so I could clear my head and put everything in a better frame of mind. Here it goes.

Are there cliques on the TMF. Yes. I will admit being a part of probally every one. I know the cliques, I wont name them...but I do associate freely, openly and respectfully with all of them that I know of.
Do members of same clique rally around each other when one of them is in a heated debate or "insult war". Yes. But it is the way things are. If any of us had a friend and saw them being verbally shallacked and we had the same opinions...of course we would rush to their defense.
What was sent in PM's I dont know, and honestly sending them to me would make no diffrence, Im not a MOD and I have no real power.
I have a well-recieved reputation here on the forum built from being respectful to everyone, and when that does not work...I ignore them. I have 3 people currently on such status. I read a lot of what goes on and honestly I DO SEE that there are times some members who because of connections or posting history get better treatment than other members. Even I recieve that treatment. But let me say it like this....
Some members because of a LONG history of being civil, polite and following the rules do garner a little more tolerance of certain statements and such because they are well known by the MODS and the posting public in general.
Let me try to rephrase...If you are at a club and been going there for years you are more likely to get the attention of the bartenders 1st for drinks, fellow club goers because of your noticablity and if a squabble breaks out with you and a new person involved, the bouncer or manager is more apt to believe, side or let you get away with more because they know you better or because you spend more time/money there.
Even with people you know...are you not going to give more leeway with friends you have known for 4 years than those you have known for 1 month.

I feel that I know this site and its members pretty well, and whether or not you use me as a "judge" or not is up to you. Perhaps I myself might have done something to ire someone...but its not about me. Cid, if you feel unfairly treated I would like to tell you that I personally feel Myraids DOES NOT let cliques get into his train of thought. He is not so much in ANY clique as he is more like me...familiar with everyone that are in the cliques and Myraids has no loyalty to back-up anyone and I in my years in the forum (Ive only been using this name for about 2 years, but Ive been around since the begining) I have never seen anything to lead me to believe otherwise.
Is this forum perfect. NO. Far from it. But it is certainly one of the best run boards Ive seen.
Do I have problems with things. Yes. My biggest problem is that certain threads garner more attention and action from MODS than other threads.
If it is about certain subjects and if certain members are being "insulted" MODS are more likely to come in and say something than in other threads.
This bothers me, but this is not a thread to address my issues. When the time is right and I get my ducks in a row I will handle it not in a thread, but in a PM to the appropiate channels.
My first will be to Myraids...and if it can not be resolved through him...then I will PM MTP Jeff.
Cid if you feel Myriads has not satisfied you, the next person is MTP Jeff. If you address the situation with concern and respect, Jeff will respond and treat you fairly.
If you still can not get a result that you like, then unfortunately there is nothing else that can be done. This is not a democracy around here, it is a public forum with rules and owners whom like any regular store or anything "Reserve the Right to Refuse Service".
Is it fair....no, but it is the way things are.

In short are there people here who wield "ungiven" power because of their status as a long-time member and can cross the line without action. Yes.
Are there people here because only of association can also use that power. Yes. But it is not Myraids that makes these decisons nor should he be blamed. He is only human, like the rest of us, makes judgements on what he knows and because of history.

I apologize for getting involved, but I felt perhaps I could say a few things not yet said here, and perhaps create some understanding. A lot of the newer posters that are trying to become more active I hope find this information informative and hopefully will help them to continue to post and continue to gain a history so things like this will not happen to them.
I mean think about it....250 posts, with 25 in a bad nature or insulting. To having 3800 posts with maybe 5 posts in an insulting or bad nature. Its all about posting history and time put in.

Chosen, I feel really bad that you feel that way. I was never aware that a reason you rarely post anymore was because of what you see. When I first started back on being here frequently it was diffcult at first to garner attention for threads, good comments, and develop a rapport with enough members to feel as open as I do now.
With the way you expressed yourself and your thoughtful posts, I know in no time you could eaisly be one of those that are "clique neutral" like me, never having to choose sides, because everyone knows that your a friend and confidant to all.

Rob

Cid
04-14-2007, 06:28 PM
Clarifications: I offer an open invitation to any and all of Cid's many supporters who have PM'ed him to drop me a PM and show me their support of him. Or if Cid wishes he can authorise me to log into his account and look at his saved PM files myself to withness the support Or he can foprward sid messages to me. If this issue is indeed as large as he feels, then seeing such material would be highly useful to me in understanding and correcting the issue here.

Myriads

If anyone read this statement here while wondering about a privacy policy than here's your answer. Does the privacy of another member depend on another member? Seems like it. Well here's good news I've logged in for the last time. I don't think I want to go to a forum where the mods, and admins aren't impartial, where the privacy of it's members varies. If my step-brother wants to hang around here, that's fine. If the people who stood with me want to stick around, that's cool too. But I said what I felt I needed to say, I might have insulted other members, but no one held their punches with me.

Happy Boy
04-27-2007, 09:38 AM
I agree about the clique thing going on here. If you're not with the "in" crowd or if you're friends with someone the clique doesn't like, then you're not worth talking to. Its one of the reasons I don't come here much these days. Its a load of bull to be honest.

I triple agree. I can see that certain members get preferential treatment here and that there is sort of gang mentality in that if you are attacked and post back even within the rules the members of that person's clique will come to their rescue and say "you need to chill out" after you've been insulted or "you're creepy/a stalker" or some other goofy label grasping at straws. I liked it at first when I came here but now point blank I don't at all and I just see myself coming back and sticking to talking about tickling. I even deleted a bunch of my posts from general discussion and my signature pic. I was warned that there was this type of clique crap when I asked about this site on the Tickle Theater Community but I didn't think it could be this bad.