Casting actors in alternate-race roles?

[Capnmad]

This thread is being started to pull traffic from the Jessica Biel/JLA Movie thread that may be starting a new discussion on race and casting in movies.

Okay folks! Here's your chance to sound off! Should actors of one race be seriously considered to play characters that are historically of another race, or should a director's maintaining of race consistency between actor and character be considered part of having respect for the history of the character?

Would you go to see a movie with Beyoncé as Wonder Woman?

Would you like to see a Superman portrayed by Jet Li, or Batman by Denzel Washington?

Should we entertain the idea of Blade or Spawn's roles being played by Hugh Jackman or Christian Bale?

Could there be an Indian Spider-man?

Chow Yun Fat as Sherlock Holmes?

Wesley Snipes in a remake of "Fistful of Dollars" as "The Man with No Name"?

"The Odd Couple" with Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker?

C'mon people! Where are your boundaries with this? Why or why wouldn't you let people do certain alternate-race roles?

NOTE: We're sticking just to fictional characters for the purposes of this thread, so no arguments about Robin Williams playing Martin Luther King in a biopic, or similar, should emerge.

Give us your thoughts! :xpulcy:

[bugman]

This thread is being started to pull traffic from the Jessica Biel/JLA Movie thread that may be starting a new discussion on race and casting in movies.

Okay folks! Here's your chance to sound off! Should actors of one race be seriously considered to play characters that are historically of another race, or should a director's maintaining of race consistency between actor and character be considered part of having respect for the history of the character?

Would you go to see a movie with Beyoncé as Wonder Woman?

Would you like to see a Superman portrayed by Jet Li, or Batman by Denzel Washington?

Should we entertain the idea of Blade or Spawn's roles being played by Hugh Jackman or Christian Bale?

Could there be an Indian Spider-man?

Chow Yun Fat as Sherlock Holmes?

Wesley Snipes in a remake of "Fistful of Dollars" as "The Man with No Name"?

"The Odd Couple" with Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker?

C'mon people! Where are your boundaries with this? Why or why wouldn't you let people do certain alternate-race roles?

NOTE: We're sticking just to fictional characters for the purposes of this thread, so no arguments about Robin Williams playing Martin Luther King in a biopic, or similar, should emerge.

Give us your thoughts! :xpulcy:

In most cases that could work but with Sherlock Holmes i can't see anybody but a Brit or another caucasian playing that part.Of course Warren Oland and Sidney Toler starred in the Charlie Chan series in the 1930's and 40's but that was strictly the racial norms of the time.Not right but the way it was.But then again after Basil Rathbone i thought they should have stopped making Holmes movies anyway,so what do i know.:upsidedow

[MrPartickler]

To me, it just depends on what direction the writer/director wants to take the film:

Do they want it to be akin to a real-life (re)telling of a traditional story? ...or do they want to take things in a (slightly) different direction and perhaps innovate a little and/or maybe even bring the story more up-to-date?

I'd be willing to give any of them a try, if I thought the movie would be interesting overall.

However, I admit I do bristle a bit when they try to mix the two ideas without acknowledging the differences. I mean, there are just some places where some ethnicities are not going to "blend in." To me, it sometimes looks silly if people in the movie carry on acting as if that's not the case.

[bugman]

However, I admit I do bristle a bit when they try to mix the two ideas without acknowledging the differences. I mean, there are just some places where some ethnicities are not going to "blend in." To me, it sometimes looks silly if people in the movie carry on acting as if that's not the case.

YES.That is the crux of the matter,and the words i was looking for.Thank you for expressing my feelings better then i was able to.:D

[maniactickler]

Id have to vote no. im a stickler for keeping things very original.

[kis123]

If all the other remakes around here held to traditional characters, I'd be all for staying within tradition. But these remakes don't even keep to storyline or the characters looking like the original cast.

So why not think outside the box and pick other character matches. As much as I hated Lethal Weapon, I thought Mel Gibson and Danny Glover matched very well (that's why they made about four of them).

I think Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan work as an Odd Couple. How many of those rush hour movies have they made? I can definitely see them doin a remake of Odd Couple.

As I said in the previously mentioned thread, there are actors of color who played in roles originally cast by white actors. Will Smith played in the remake of Wild wild west. He also played in six degrees of separation (one of his best, I might add) and that movie with Matt Damon (I still can't remember the name) and that was originally cast for a white actor.

Jennifer Lopez made most of her acting money playing roles normally written for white actresses. She even admitted it on Bravo during an interview. She was more interested in getting out there as an actress back then than to care if the role was for a white or Hispanic woman.

So if these two actors can do it, why not someone else? Someone mentioned on the other thread that casting Tyra Banks in the Wonder Woman role would be the same as casting Jack Black in Blade. Jack Black is IMO, a very underrated actor who can actually carry any role he plays in. He played a bad-guy role in "the jackal" with Bruce Willis; it was a short role but I thought it was a long way from the goofy comedies he's normally cast in. He just settles more for the comedies. But he's played in dramatic roles as well. He's also an accomplished (and relatively good) singer. I think he very well could pull off a role in Blade just as easily as Wesley Snipes ( who I just really can't stand).

I was only thinking outside the box and even agreed that Jessica Biel would be a decent choice. But she's too small to fit in Lynda Carter's shoes and the body type just isn't there. I thought Lynda Carter and immediately went to two women of color who could rock the role. Those ladies are Tyra Banks and Beyonce'. They have the height, the perfect body type, and could rock that role. But if you're fitting the role solely based on race, I still wouldn't make Jessica Biel my first choice.

Now I'm being accused of being racist because I thought outside the traditional box. I'm getting sick and tired of everytime issues of color get mentioned, I become the racist. I didn't say or do anything wrong; but it looks like I won't be saying anything else about it either. When the smoke settles, dust clears, and day is done, they'll pick a white female in the role. It really wouldn't matter who they picked because I'd be waiting for it to come to video rentals before I spend ten bucks in the theatre to see anyone!

[Laugh]

I would want the casting to be historically correct only if the character actually did exist and was not a work of imaginary fiction.

Wonder Woman is not real. She does not and has not ever existed. Therefore, it is impossible to say if she is white, black or both. She isn't a real person. It's the ideals she stands for that makes her Wonder Woman.

That said, I would not want to see Brad Pitt playing Martin Luther King Jr. and I would not want to see Denzel Washington playing John F. Kennedy. Those are actual historical figures and not a work of fiction. It would be inaccurate.

Yes Will Smith did play James West in 'Wild Wild West'. Again, a non-existent fictional character. I have no problem with that. There has also been talk of a black character being cast as Captain James T. Kirk in a Star Trek remake. I have no problem with that because once again, James Kirk is not a real person.

Hollywood cannot be inaccurate when nothing exists to dictate it's accuracy. Comic book characters can never be inaccurate because they have never existed in reality.

[kis123]

I would want the casting to be historically correct only if the character actually did exist and was not a work of imaginary fiction.

Wonder Woman is not real. She does not and has not ever existed. Therefore, it is impossible to say if she is white, black or both. She isn't a real person. It's the ideals she stands for that makes her Wonder Woman.

That said, I would not want to see Brad Pitt playing Martin Luther King Jr. and I would not want to see Denzel Washington playing John F. Kennedy. Those are actual living historical figures and not a work of fiction. It would be inaccurate.

Yes Will Smith did play James West in 'Wild Wild West'. Again, a non-existent fictional character. I have no problem with that. There has also been talk of a black character being cast as Captain James T. Kirk in a Star Trek remake. I have no problem with that because once again, James Kirk is not a real person.

Hollywood cannot be inaccurate when nothing exists to dictate it's accuracy.

I like the way you think!!

I'm glad Star Trek expanded it's vision. They had Avery Brooks, and (sorry I can't think of the name of the woman) who eventually became captain of Starship Enterprise. Gene Roddenberry was a visionary before his time anyway; in the 1960s, he cast a black woman, an Asian, and a Scottish man to run the Enterprise. The roles were recast in the 1980s with THE SAME ACTORS!!! What a novel concept!!! They added other cast members (Kirstie Alley comes to mind), but they kept the original cast members in the movie roles.

We've been handed down a bunch of garbage over the years. We've been spoon fed all of these so called remakes and they don't touch the originals. If that's the stance Hollywood decides to take, then go outside the box and bring people onboard that will drive ticket sales throught the roof. Tyra and Beyonce' would drive ticket sales regardless what the so-called "purists" think!! Young kids want to go see thier favorites on movie screens and are willing to pay for it.

[WorkInProgress]

I have more of a background with live stage than cinema, and my opinions are mainly formed from what I know about. Essentially, I favor non-traditional and multi-ethnic casting when it doesn't throw off the audience's ability to get the point of the story. I absolutely think comic book heroes can be of any ethnicity, and I absolutely think classical theatre should be cast inclusively. I have a bias, I'll admit: my social circles include aspiring black actors who want more opportunities open to them. I'll add, I think blood relatives in a story should look plausibly like blood relatives, and if a play takes place in 1901 Louisiana, it really does make a difference who's black and who's white, but when skin color and ethnicity, the things people call "race," aren't germane to the story, I think we need more ethnically inclusive casting.

[drew70]

If the the characters were from a book or narrative, I think it's cool to cast them of an unexpected but workable ethnicity. Characters such as Wonder Woman, Superman, and James West were originated of a particularly ethnicity, and I don't like to deviate that far from the original. However one instance in which it was pulled off pretty successfully in my opinion was in the movie Daredevil. The Kingpin was white in the comics, but black in the movie. The character didn't suffer at all because of it. Mainly because the Kingpin is basically a huge bald guy. I didn't mind his being black in the movie, because he was still a huge bald guy.

[brianspencer66]

I know that for years in hollywood during its golden age whites actors played mexicans, arabs, even chinese people. The Amos and Andy radio show had 2 whites actors playing the role of black characters. It was not until the TV show in the 50s that the shows producers were forced to use and all black cast. Do I think Denzel Washington should play George Washington? Of course not. But as for Superman or Wonderwoman, Santa Clause even Jesus Christ well why not a person of color. Its been taken for granted to long that all these characters or biblical figures are or should be white. I think lots of black kids have a low self esteem when they turn on the TV and most of the people they see simply dont look like them. So diversity is a healthy thing. They did a test a few years ago with little black girls with doll babies of diffrent races and most of the little girls wound up choosing the little white dolls with blond hair and blue eyes. Now Im not saying all that comes from television but it does say alot about our pop culture. If you talk to many black actors they are constantly frustated finding work when they see casting ads with buzz words like "all american". Hell I even seen casting here on this forum looking for actors of a certain color. And lets face it hollywood does not reflect the social reality of american society.

[milagros317]

NOTE:[/b] We're sticking just to fictional characters for the purposes of this thread, so no arguments about Robin Williams playing Martin Luther King in a biopic, or similar, should emerge.

Give us your thoughts! :xpulcy:

I saw an African American actor portray Julius Ceaser in Shakespeare's play of that title, and he gave a fine performance. Yes, the historical Julius Ceaser was Italian, but in fact the play was in no way less effective because the actor was African American.

The example you gave would be different, in that a biography of Dr. King would be about race in many periods of his life. Race was not a subject in that Shakespeare play, as it clearly was in Othello.

[isabeau]

i say sure i would....Denzel Washington as Batman...wowow...nothing sexier..

i don't see why it couldn't work...i haven't looked at the Jessical Beal thread as i haven't a clue as to who she is...

[WorkInProgress]

Some years back I worked for a publication which routinely ran casting notices, and I was directly involved in processing and editing them. As much as I was in a position to, I addressed the problem that Brian Spencer refers to, of inadvertently insulting phrases like "all-American," as well as the problem of character descriptions that omitted all reference to ethnicity and let it be assumed that roles were white unless otherwise indicated. I was influenced by a call I got from a black actress who had had the experience of seeing lines like "Bertha: 25-35, sensitive yet decisive," and showing up at open calls only to be told that there weren't any roles for black performers. I made a practice of asking producers to say "Bertha: 25-35, white, sensitive yet decisive" if that was indeed the case.

[TickleGoddess06]

All I have to say is "The Legend of Bagger Vance". It was based off of a true story, so, yes, those people were real and the role Will Smith played was originally a white person.

(At least, that's what Access Hollywood had said, when the movie came out)

Personally, I could care less. But that's me, I've never been one to be really picky about which roles actors potrayed as long as the person in question, could actually act.

Now, I can understand, like Denzel being JFK wouldn't work and Brad being MLK wouldn't work, but thing again, I'm not one to get my panties in a bunch if that happened. I would still see the movie and I would still accurately review it and never, ever go insane over who played who.

OMGZ tis a black doode playin JFK <---- Never, ever, ever. I would not freak out about it.

[ticklegothgirls]

I wanna see a White Shaft.


That's my answer to that question. :cool:

[Capnmad]

I wanna see a White Shaft.

Then I'm sure there's a special section in the adult video store just for you. :D

Next? :cool:

[General Zod]

Then I'm sure there's a special section in the adult video store just for you. :D

Next? :cool: Boooooooooooooooooo :p

As a comic book purist I say no Take for example Wonder Woman She is basically an Amazonian character with ties to the Greek and Roman gods To me she should then have say a Greek accent

Look back at the first two Batman movies Harvey Dent aka Two Face was played by Billy Dee Williams An African-American He played Harvey/Two Face before he became a villain Now I did not have a problem with that

Look at Batman 3 Tommy Lee Jones played Harvey Dent who became Two Face in that movie

So was Harvey Dent a black guy,or white guy?

As a long time comic book fan,I don't like when Hollyweird takes liberties with comic book characters

[brianspencer66]

Boooooooooooooooooo :p

As a comic book purist I say no Take for example Wonder Woman She is basically an Amazonian character with ties to the Greek and Roman gods To me she should then have say a Greek accent

Look back at the first two Batman movies Harvey Dent aka Two Face was played by Billy Dee Williams An African-American He played Harvey/Two Face before he became a villain Now I did not have a problem with that

Look at Batman 3 Tommy Lee Jones played Harvey Dent who became Two Face in that movie

So was Harvey Dent a black guy,or white guy?

As a long time comic book fan,I don't like when Hollyweird takes liberties with comic book characters

And did you know that Lassie was played by both male and female Collies in the old TV series? No one cares, its fantasy and entertainment. If one wants to be a die hard fan then Id stick to the comics.

[Strider]

It would have to be taken case by case. You mentioned Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker in the Odd Couple, that would be perfectly fine, because it doesn't really matter what the characters in the Odd Couple look like, the point is the concept(indeed, Neil Simon wrote a female version which was basically the exact same script with different names).

On the other hand, too much tinkering can just stretch the bounds of credulity. If you want to write a version of Hamlet set in Imperial China, then do so. But don't cast a Chinese actor as Hamlet and change nothing else, the idea that there could have been a Chinese member of the Danish royal family in the 16th century is just silly and would look ridiculous(although, to echo what Mils said, this seems to be more of an issue on screen than in theater).

On the subject of comic book characters, being a huge comic book geek, I'm sort of a purist just on general principle. I didn't have a problem with Michael Clarke Duncan playing the Kingpin, because the Kingpin, first and foremost is a huge guy, and while I suppose they could have cast a white pro-wrestler, it was nice to see them pick someone who could actually act. By the same token, I did have an issue with Jennifer Garner playing Elektra, because Elektra's Greek, and Jennifer Garner looks about as Greek as Cate Blanchett. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if they had just not mentioned her ethnicity, but they specifically made the point that her father was the Greek ambassador, and cast a Greek actor to play him, so it just looked silly.

Just on the Wonder Woman issue, she is an Amazon, so I'd like to see them at least try to get someone who looks vaguely Mediterranean.

[Cosmo_ac]

And did you know that Lassie was played by both male and female Collies in the old TV series? No one cares, its fantasy and entertainment. If one wants to be a die hard fan then Id stick to the comics.


People would care however if they used a bulldog for lassie more then likely.


IMO, while creative licensing can be a good thing, V for Vendetta is a great example where creative licensing for a comic to movie adaption worked out great, it should be taken with the writers own peril. Most people when they go to see a movie on a well established charactor aren't paying to see somebody take that charactor and twist it into something else. Ie,if i'm paying to see Spider-man, i don;t want to see Cuba Gooding playing the role of peter parker. Incidently however, i don't want a white guy playing peter parker, and then have him being a pimp on the side to make a few bucks. Want to make a movie with a black actor with spider powers? Want to give somebody powers like an established charactor but have his personality completely different? Perfectly fine. Just don't do it with a well established charactor that everybody already knows and loves.

[Wildtime]

Everyone has pre-conceptions of who would be the ideal actor for their favorite fictional characters; based on appearance, mannerisms and ethnicity. However, if the actor doesn't fit the role--the character won't be as believable. Case in point: George Clooney playing Batman.

When Battlestar Galactica came out with a female Starbuck, I really wasn't expecting that. However, Katie Sackoff (I hope I spelled her name right) is one hell of an actress and I think she defined the character better than Dirk Benedict ever did. Plus, having Boomer as a female cylon is one of the best character re-definitions I have ever seen.

[brianspencer66]

People would care however if they used a bulldog for lassie more then likely.


IMO, while creative licensing can be a good thing, V for Vendetta is a great example where creative licensing for a comic to movie adaption worked out great, it should be taken with the writers own peril. Most people when they go to see a movie on a well established charactor aren't paying to see somebody take that charactor and twist it into something else. Ie,if i'm paying to see Spider-man, i don;t want to see Cuba Gooding playing the role of peter parker. Incidently however, i don't want a white guy playing peter parker, and then have him being a pimp on the side to make a few bucks. Want to make a movie with a black actor with spider powers? Want to give somebody powers like an established charactor but have his personality completely different? Perfectly fine. Just don't do it with a well established charactor that everybody already knows and loves.

I think my point may have been lost here Cosmo. Im not really all that concerned if Spider Man or Superman or Wonderwoman is either black or white and to tell the truth I dont think most people really care either. keep in mind most people who are serious comic book readers are males between 12 and maybe 25. And that is just a small fraction of the male population. Personally I dont think the general audience really cares about Spidermans backround I think they are paying their dollars to see a cool looking guy swinging from buildings.

But the main point I was making really is that there are sooooo many parts in hollywood that are fictional that could go to actors who are asian, hispanic or black that simply go to white actors all the time. Open the newspaper and look at the movie ads or flick the channel on the TV set and count how many actors of color you see compared to white actors. Thats the real point Im trying to make as Im not really a comic book reader anymore anyway (I prefered Archie lol). So if you comic book young guys want someone Greek to stay true to the character no problem. But It does make you wonder why are people so bothered by a Black Spider man?

[kis123]

Ie,if i'm paying to see Spider-man, i don;t want to see Cuba Gooding playing the role of peter parker. Incidently however, i don't want a white guy playing peter parker, and then have him being a pimp on the side to make a few bucks.

Care to elaborate???

Why would changing the race of the character lead to changing the storyline? And why would you state that casting a black actor changes the storyline to a pimp?

I'll wait for your response before I comment any further. I'm just hoping my interpretation of your post is wrong.

[Dussicar]

Sometimes it gets downright annoying to see in the casting mindset.

Why would you make a movie set in Britain and then cast Americans as the main characters? Now, don't get me wrong, I loved how Hugh Jackman pulled off Wolverine, but if you break it down, it just comes across as odd:

They cast an Australian...To play a Canadian...In an American movie.:illogical

As for the topic at hand, it really depends. Some production companies hire based on talent. Others do it based on pandering to a demographic. It's pretty easy to spot the ideal they were going for about a quarter into the movie.

I don't like false pretenses.

[Cosmo_ac]

I think my point may have been lost here Cosmo. Im not really all that concerned if Spider Man or Superman or Wonderwoman is either black or white and to tell the truth I dont think most people really care either. keep in mind most people who are serious comic book readers are males between 12 and maybe 25. And that is just a small fraction of the male population. Personally I dont think the general audience really cares about Spidermans backround I think they are paying their dollars to see a cool looking guy swinging from buildings.


Something to keep in mind though Brian is that the reason these comics are being made into movies in the first place is because of that male 12 to 25 fan base. Without that fan base it's much more likely the movies would not have been made at all, so i do think the fans have a right to feel a little miffed when somebody takes a well established charactor and puts their own little twists and turns to them.


But the main point I was making really is that there are sooooo many parts in hollywood that are fictional that could go to actors who are asian, hispanic or black that simply go to white actors all the time. Open the newspaper and look at the movie ads or flick the channel on the TV set and count how many actors of color you see compared to white actors. Thats the real point Im trying to make as Im not really a comic book reader anymore anyway (I prefered Archie lol). So if you comic book young guys want someone Greek to stay true to the character no problem. But It does make you wonder why are people so bothered by a Black Spider man?


I agree that a lot of parts go to white actors instead of black actors, but their are several reasons for that, one being that white actors tend to outnumber the actors of other races. Now, this will change in time i'm sure, but probably not for another 20 years or so when they bring in more fresh blood.

Care to elaborate???

Why would changing the race of the character lead to changing the storyline? And why would you state that casting a black actor changes the storyline to a pimp?

I'll wait for your response before I comment any further. I'm just hoping my interpretation of your post is wrong.

Changing the race of an actor doesn;t have to change the story one bit. However,your still changing the race of a well established charactor. Also, i didn't say changing the charactor into a black person makes them a pimp. i specifically said

Incidently however, i don't want a white guy playing peter parker, and then have him being a pimp on the side to make a few bucks.

Just because they use the right race, doesn;t mean that they get a clean bill. Being a pimp, as the example i used, would be completely out of charactor for the charactor of Peter Parker.

[kis123]

:wavingguyChanging the race of an actor doesn;t have to change the story one bit. However,your still changing the race of a well established charactor. Also, i didn't say changing the charactor into a black person makes them a pimp. i specifically said



Just because they use the right race, doesn;t mean that they get a clean bill. Being a pimp, as the example i used, would be completely out of charactor for the charactor of Peter Parker.

Okay, I'm glad I got clarification before I went there. See, an old dog can learn a new trick or two!:woot:

[Cosmo_ac]

np hun. God knows i've read posts incorectly a few times and/or taken them the wrong way. One thing i've learned is that if i read something i find odd or upseting/insulting, i re-read the post several times, usually after i've taken a moment to cool down a little, to make sure i did indeed read it the right way.

[brianspencer66]

Something to keep in mind though Brian is that the reason these comics are being made into movies in the first place is because of that male 12 to 25 fan base. Without that fan base it's much more likely the movies would not have been made at all, so i do think the fans have a right to feel a little miffed when somebody takes a well established charactor and puts their own little twists and turns to them.





I agree that a lot of parts go to white actors instead of black actors, but their are several reasons for that, one being that white actors tend to outnumber the actors of other races. Now, this will change in time i'm sure, but probably not for another 20 years or so when they bring in more fresh blood.



Changing the race of an actor doesn;t have to change the story one bit. However,your still changing the race of a well established charactor. Also, i didn't say changing the charactor into a black person makes them a pimp. i specifically said



Just because they use the right race, doesn;t mean that they get a clean bill. Being a pimp, as the example i used, would be completely out of charactor for the charactor of Peter Parker.

What you mention about the fan base is true. But dont you think that many more people will go to see the movie for example, those who never read a comic book. I can think of countless people who never read the book "Roots" for example or "The Color Purple" and they went to see the the television or theatrical release. Roots was the highest rated TV movie in history. Lots more saw that then read the book. Another example is Ken Russells movie "Tommy". The Whos rock opera. People who never listened to The Who started to buy their records based on what they heard and saw in that movie. These productions greatly expanded the fan bases for Alex Haley, Alice Walker and Pete Townsend. And in two of these cases they wavered from the original idea and were of great success. More times than not the hard core book or music fans will complain how the movie did not stick to the orginal intent the book or 1969 album. But that is of a small consequence to the success of the project overall. And in hindsight people can always read the book or hear the original soundtrack at a later time.

As for your point about work for black actors, well its only natural that there are more white actors than black ones. There are more white people than black people. It was like that 20 years ago and will be like that 20 years from now too. Its not a shortage of black actors that are a problem, its the hiring practice of the people that make the movies. Talk to Denzel Washington or Hallie Berry or Danny Glover or countless other people of color and they will all tell you how they had to fight for roles.Talk to asian and hispanics actors like Margret Cho or George Lopez, they will say the same thing. New York alone is teaming with starving actors of all colors Ive worked temp jobs with tons of them.The problem is what I see on the screen does not reflect the reality of what I see walking on the street in my daily life. How does a guy like Woody Allen make movies about NYC for 30 years and not a single one has a black character ? Oh wait he did have one a black woman playing a hooker lol. But Im sure you get my point here.

Now you may say that "Roots" and "Color Purple" would not work with white actors and in this case its true due to the race specific story content. But my line of reasoning here is strickly to point out only that movie makers always take "poetic licence" to sell many more tickets (rightly or wrongly) to greatly expand the initial fan base. But there is a great diffrence between Kunta Kente or Sealy from "Color Purple' and Spider Man or Wonder Woman. The first too are in the wrelm of fictional historical content and the later two are comic book fiction. Im not going to say one is more important than the other, I dont have a right to make that judement, but to me it should have no bearing on if super heros are black or white. Thats sort of like saying Santa Clause should be white beacuse dark skinned people dont live on the North Pole. Well hardly anyone lives on the North Pole anyway, and who is to say who lives on Cripton?

[bugman]

Thats sort of like saying Santa Clause should be white beacuse dark skinned people dont live on the North Pole.

Santa Clause should,if we want to be accurate should be protrayed as someone of Greek or Turkish heritage since he is based on St. Nicholas of Myra.The Santa we all grew up with was created as part of an ad campaign for Coke in the late 1920's or early 30's.Of course drawings and paintings before that period show him as white also.I think we all know that if non whites were used in advertising at all back then it would be in a stereotypical and degrading manner.

[Capnmad]

I LOVE THIS EXCHANGE!!!

Why would changing the race of the character lead to changing the storyline? And why would you state that casting a black actor changes the storyline to a pimp?

I'll wait for your response before I comment any further. I'm just hoping my interpretation of your post is wrong.

Just because they use the right race, doesn;t mean that they get a clean bill. Being a pimp, as the example i used, would be completely out of charactor for the charactor of Peter Parker.

:wavingguy

Okay, I'm glad I got clarification before I went there. See, an old dog can learn a new trick or two!:woot:

np hun. God knows i've read posts incorectly a few times and/or taken them the wrong way. One thing i've learned is that if i read something i find odd or upseting/insulting, i re-read the post several times, usually after i've taken a moment to cool down a little, to make sure i did indeed read it the right way.

I could kiss you people! THANK YOU for being an example of putting inquiry before assumption and discussing things like civilized people! That, my friends, is a model of how to proceed with discourse even when things look like they're hitting an edge. Inquire, be open, and discuss.

Sometimes you won't like the answer and things'll go south anyway, but always try to give someone a chance to discuss what they've said... Preventing overreactions to misunderstandings can be as simple as asking someone to elaborate or re-explain... If more people would inquire for clarity and maybe cut out the misunderstandings like you two just did, this place would make another step toward lightening up even more.

Kis, thank you for asking. Cosmo, thanks for the explanation. You guys ROCK! :bowing::bowing::bowing:

I'm feelin' the love! Do you feel the love?! I'm feelin' the love! :lovestory




Well hardly anyone lives on the North Pole anyway, and who is to say who lives on Cripton?

I'm guessing... ...The Crips? :shake: <-- Don't shoot me! I'm wearing your color!!!

[ijustwannaplay]

I think it really comes down to the story and the character. Someone mentioned having a black Captain James T. Kirk, and for me that just wouldn't work. I know Kirk is a fictional character, but he is a fictional character that has been established through many movies, TV episodes, and books over more than 40 years. That isn't to say that a black man can't captain a space ship; to the contrary Captain Sisko has a whole space station that he runs in DS9, but Captain Kirk is a white male from Iowa, I believe. You can't just change that after 40 years, it doesn't work that way. I personally would not go to see a movie that did make that change.

But on the other hand, if you were to remake the movie Trading Places, I don't think there would be a problem with changing races. The point is that a poor person and a down-on-his-luck former investory/banker/whatever combine forces to make a lot of money and screw over the old-fashioned establishment on Wall Street. You could just as easily have the poor guy be white and his sidekick be black, or maybe both of them Asian or Hispanic.

That is my $.02, anyway.

[brianspencer66]

I think it really comes down to the story and the character. Someone mentioned having a black Captain James T. Kirk, and for me that just wouldn't work. I know Kirk is a fictional character, but he is a fictional character that has been established through many movies, TV episodes, and books over more than 40 years. That isn't to say that a black man can't captain a space ship; to the contrary Captain Sisko has a whole space station that he runs in DS9, but Captain Kirk is a white male from Iowa, I believe. You can't just change that after 40 years, it doesn't work that way. I personally would not go to see a movie that did make that change.

But on the other hand, if you were to remake the movie Trading Places, I don't think there would be a problem with changing races. The point is that a poor person and a down-on-his-luck former investory/banker/whatever combine forces to make a lot of money and screw over the old-fashioned establishment on Wall Street. You could just as easily have the poor guy be white and his sidekick be black, or maybe both of them Asian or Hispanic.

That is my $.02, anyway.

I see your point about captain Kirk, but you know Rocky was a fictional character too. In fact they actually erected a statue in Philly for him. And well there has not been a white heavy weight champ in this country for over 50 years. So would you not say that is a stretch of the imagination too? And well that did not keep me from seeing it because Rocky was a white guy. It was a wonderful movie though I know it was bullshit. Listen its only fiction you can do anything you want, think about it.:bouncybou

[CitY of MicA]

I see your point about captain Kirk, but you know Rocky was a fictional character too. In fact they actually erected a statue in Philly for him. And well there has not been a white heavy weight champ in this country for over 50 years. So would you not say that is a stretch of the imagination too? And well that did not keep me from seeing it because Rocky was a white guy. It was a wonderful movie though I know it was bullshit. Listen its only fiction you can do anything you want, think about it.:bouncybou
I didn't know that statue existed until last night, when I had the Philly-Dallas football game on. Honestly, I found it a bit galling (then again, I'm not a Rocky fan). It made me wonder about Joe Frazier, my favorite fighter, and a non-fictional character who grew up in Philadelphia. I'm sure they're erecting his statue as we speak. Incidentally, I remember hearing that part of the Rocky character was based on Joe Frazier's early career.

With Hollywood's current fixation on remaking everything not bolted down (with liscensing rights), we stand to see loads more White superheroes, White working-class heroes, and White average-joe heroes. Such were their ideas of heroism. For my money (which is not spent on Hollywood movies, anyhow, so they have nothing to worry about), people of all ethnicities should be considered for open roles of a non-historical nature, unless the role was written for a specific ethnicity due to a point the writer is making about race/ethnicity (i.e. My Big Fat East Timor Wedding). Indicentally, how many Asian actors/actresses commonly find work in Hollywood? Or should I rephrase that- is Lucy Liu the only one (Jackie Chan and Chow Yun Fat more or less working out of Hong Kong)?

When I was a kid, I can remember liking the Falcon, a Black superhero. Anybody else remember him? He appeared in Captain America comics, albeit very infrequently. Considering the fact that we probably won't see them make a movie with the Falcon any time soon, it seems only fitting that non-whites should be cast as Superheroes. This has to be done actively, however, if one takes into account the fact that comics commonly portrayed only Whites. I remember DC trying to diversify when they aired the Superfriends on tv in the 70s- they added an Indian superhero (Apache Chief), a Black superhero (Black Lightning), and a Japanese superhero (Samurai), all of whom had not appeared in the comics. They caught a certain amount of grief for it, too.

[kis123]

I LOVE THIS EXCHANGE!!!



I could kiss you people! THANK YOU for being an example of putting inquiry before assumption and discussing things like civilized people! That, my friends, is a model of how to proceed with discourse even when things look like they're hitting an edge. Inquire, be open, and discuss.

Sometimes you won't like the answer and things'll go south anyway, but always try to give someone a chance to discuss what they've said... Preventing overreactions to misunderstandings can be as simple as asking someone to elaborate or re-explain... If more people would inquire for clarity and maybe cut out the misunderstandings like you two just did, this place would make another step toward lightening up even more.

Kis, thank you for asking. Cosmo, thanks for the explanation. You guys ROCK! :bowing::bowing::bowing:

I'm feelin' the love! Do you feel the love?! I'm feelin' the love! :lovestory






I'm guessing... ...The Crips? :shake: <-- Don't shoot me! I'm wearing your color!!!


I sought clarification from Cosmo because I'm familiar with his posting style. I don't always agree with his political viewpoints but he's always been respectful towards me and others of color. It seemed so out of context that I had to ask for clarification. If it were certain other wonderful souls around here, I can't guarantee that I would have been as patient.

What's funny about the whole exchange is I misinterpreted his post because I missed reading one word. I would've felt pretty stupid if I would've jumped in with both feet and was wrong, huh?:evilha:

I'm trying to become a little less tempermental in my approach to the ever hot topic of race. Keep in mind that this is a work in progress the next time I knee jerk at someone!:jester:

[brianspencer66]

I sought clarification from Cosmo because I'm familiar with his posting style. I don't always agree with his political viewpoints but he's always been respectful towards me and others of color. It seemed so out of context that I had to ask for clarification. If it were certain other wonderful souls around here, I can't guarantee that I would have been as patient.

What's funny about the whole exchange is I misinterpreted his post because I missed reading one word. I would've felt pretty stupid if I would've jumped in with both feet and was wrong, huh?:evilha:

I'm trying to become a little less tempermental in my approach to the ever hot topic of race. Keep in mind that this is a work in progress the next time I knee jerk at someone!:jester:

Kiss I misread that too and caught it and your right cosmos is ok

[brianspencer66]

I didn't know that statue existed until last night, when I had the Philly-Dallas football game on. Honestly, I found it a bit galling (then again, I'm not a Rocky fan). It made me wonder about Joe Frazier, my favorite fighter, and a non-fictional character who grew up in Philadelphia. I'm sure they're erecting his statue as we speak. Incidentally, I remember hearing that part of the Rocky character was based on Joe Frazier's early career.

With Hollywood's current fixation on remaking everything not bolted down (with liscensing rights), we stand to see loads more White superheroes, White working-class heroes, and White average-joe heroes. Such were their ideas of heroism. For my money (which is not spent on Hollywood movies, anyhow, so they have nothing to worry about), people of all ethnicities should be considered for open roles of a non-historical nature, unless the role was written for a specific ethnicity due to a point the writer is making about race/ethnicity (i.e. My Big Fat East Timor Wedding). Indicentally, how many Asian actors/actresses commonly find work in Hollywood? Or should I rephrase that- is Lucy Liu the only one (Jackie Chan and Chow Yun Fat more or less working out of Hong Kong)?

When I was a kid, I can remember liking the Falcon, a Black superhero. Anybody else remember him? He appeared in Captain America comics, albeit very infrequently. Considering the fact that we probably won't see them make a movie with the Falcon any time soon, it seems only fitting that non-whites should be cast as Superheroes. This has to be done actively, however, if one takes into account the fact that comics commonly portrayed only Whites. I remember DC trying to diversify when they aired the Superfriends on tv in the 70s- they added an Indian superhero (Apache Chief), a Black superhero (Black Lightning), and a Japanese superhero (Samurai), all of whom had not appeared in the comics. They caught a certain amount of grief for it, too.

Thanks City of Mica I really see you get it. Its not about taking away from anyone its really about lack of diversity.

[Cosmo_ac]

What you mention about the fan base is true. But dont you think that many more people will go to see the movie for example, those who never read a comic book. I can think of countless people who never read the book "Roots" for example or "The Color Purple" and they went to see the the television or theatrical release. Roots was the highest rated TV movie in history. Lots more saw that then read the book. Another example is Ken Russells movie "Tommy". The Whos rock opera. People who never listened to The Who started to buy their records based on what they heard and saw in that movie. These productions greatly expanded the fan bases for Alex Haley, Alice Walker and Pete Townsend. And in two of these cases they wavered from the original idea and were of great success. More times than not the hard core book or music fans will complain how the movie did not stick to the orginal intent the book or 1969 album. But that is of a small consequence to the success of the project overall. And in hindsight people can always read the book or hear the original soundtrack at a later time.


I do think those who haven;t read the comic book will go see the movie, if something about what they have heard or seen appeals to them. As far as "roots" goes, i've never seen the movie, but i think one of the reasons it got such attention was because of Opra's support of it. I remember watching a Bio on her, and she seemed to have a lot to do with supporting this movie. If i remember correctly as well, I could have sworn critics also kicked the movie around the block after it was shown.

As for your point about work for black actors, well its only natural that there are more white actors than black ones. There are more white people than black people. It was like that 20 years ago and will be like that 20 years from now too. Its not a shortage of black actors that are a problem, its the hiring practice of the people that make the movies. Talk to Denzel Washington or Hallie Berry or Danny Glover or countless other people of color and they will all tell you how they had to fight for roles.Talk to asian and hispanics actors like Margret Cho or George Lopez, they will say the same thing. New York alone is teaming with starving actors of all colors Ive worked temp jobs with tons of them.The problem is what I see on the screen does not reflect the reality of what I see walking on the street in my daily life. How does a guy like Woody Allen make movies about NYC for 30 years and not a single one has a black character ? Oh wait he did have one a black woman playing a hooker lol. But Im sure you get my point here.


Unfortionatly i don;t know enough about the hiring process.However, i think whereever you have a majority of one race, you will have a majority of TV shows and movies aimed or at least staring similiar ethnic groups of that race.

Personal, and perhaps it's a racial thing i don;t know, i don;t find many all black TV sicoms really grab me. I did grow up watching Fresh Prince, Family Matters (is that the one with Steve Irkel?), and the Cosby show(and i loved Fat Albert!), but for some reason i didn;t take to the newer black comedy shows as i grew up. Maybe some were just horrible shows (sister sister? seriously come on people!), or maybe i just didn't feel i could relate with the chars, but none of them really stuck, and i ended up watching shows that were at eaither all white (Loved the Drew Carey Show) or mixed (DPS is the best trek series of all!).

Now you may say that "Roots" and "Color Purple" would not work with white actors and in this case its true due to the race specific story content. But my line of reasoning here is strickly to point out only that movie makers always take "poetic licence" to sell many more tickets (rightly or wrongly) to greatly expand the initial fan base. But there is a great diffrence between Kunta Kente or Sealy from "Color Purple' and Spider Man or Wonder Woman. The first too are in the wrelm of fictional historical content and the later two are comic book fiction. Im not going to say one is more important than the other, I dont have a right to make that judement, but to me it should have no bearing on if super heros are black or white. Thats sort of like saying Santa Clause should be white beacuse dark skinned people dont live on the North Pole. Well hardly anyone lives on the North Pole anyway, and who is to say who lives on Cripton?

I pretty much agree with what your saying, but i just would think it would be a bad idea to try and take a charactor who is historically one race, and make them into another race for no other reason to appeal to fans of that minority. I'm somewhat a fan of political correctness, but i think if they took somebody like wonderwomen and made her into a black women, would be just too much.

[Cosmo_ac]

I could kiss you people! THANK YOU for being an example of putting inquiry before assumption and discussing things like civilized people! That, my friends, is a model of how to proceed with discourse even when things look like they're hitting an edge. Inquire, be open, and discuss.

Sometimes you won't like the answer and things'll go south anyway, but always try to give someone a chance to discuss what they've said... Preventing overreactions to misunderstandings can be as simple as asking someone to elaborate or re-explain... If more people would inquire for clarity and maybe cut out the misunderstandings like you two just did, this place would make another step toward lightening up even more.

Kis, thank you for asking. Cosmo, thanks for the explanation. You guys ROCK!

I'm feelin' the love! Do you feel the love?! I'm feelin' the love!


lol, thanks Cap. I'm just glad Kiss is willing to give me the benefit of the doubt and ask for clarity.

I sought clarification from Cosmo because I'm familiar with his posting style. I don't always agree with his political viewpoints but he's always been respectful towards me and others of color.

Awww, thanks Kiss! *Hugs and tickles!*

Kiss I misread that too and caught it and your right cosmos is ok

Thans Brian :D

[Capnmad]

I sought clarification from Cosmo because I'm familiar with his posting style. I don't always agree with his political viewpoints but he's always been respectful towards me and others of color. It seemed so out of context that I had to ask for clarification. If it were certain other wonderful souls around here, I can't guarantee that I would have been as patient.

I understand entirely. Some wear their welcomes out faster than others with people, I grant you.



What's funny about the whole exchange is I misinterpreted his post because I missed reading one word. I would've felt pretty stupid if I would've jumped in with both feet and was wrong, huh?:evilha:

And sometimes one or two words are all it takes.



I'm trying to become a little less tempermental in my approach to the ever hot topic of race. Keep in mind that this is a work in progress the next time I knee jerk at someone!:jester:

Cool. I think everyone has things to work on and things they can do better. :) I know I do, and I'll tell you, every time I meet someone who thinks they have nothing to work on, nothing to improve about themselves -- those are the people I often regret meeting. I have a bad allergy to Gods.

But again, I commend you both for settling this like adults -- inquiring, discussing and proceeding. I hope more follow suit. It'd make this place a lot friendlier. :xpulcy:


On to the topic...

I'd been avoiding throwing my two cents in because it seems so very grey an area, and a rare one I can't very well articulate my views on, I don't think...

I've been an avid comicbook fan for years, and so, have a great appreciation for continuity, and consistency of character. Generally, there's also an appreciation for variety, insofar as it doesn't conflict with canon (and so, the popularity of DC's "Elseworlds" line and Marvel's "Ultimate" line of comics). But deviance from character in a story that is considered as "in-continuity" upsets a lot of folks... When longtime Green Lantern Hal Jordan went mad, became "Parallax", and basically destroyed the universe, people got pissed. When Batgirl Cassandra Cain, a previously illiterate human weapon, who after a traumatic incident in childhood vowed never to kill, suddenly spun on a dime and decided that an assassin was what she was at heart, there was outrage.

When you make a movie based off of comicbook characters, there are varying degrees of desire for consistency depending largely on one's level of devotion to a character and it's portrayal being faithful to what one has known. For myself, I grew up with Batman being my favorite. As a child, I pretended to be Batman with friends -- we'd trade off on who would play Batman depending upon who was visiting whose house. I had a very clear idea of who and what Batman was very early, and part of that was rich, billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne who was unerringly portrayed as a white man in the comics and by them in TV and movies.

I think I would have increasing difficulty the further Bruce Wayne's appearance departed from causcasian, and with the degree to which Alfred's background departed from British, unless it was acknowledged from the get-go that this is a separate continuity. At the same time, I think I could deal with a black Batman if the part was convincingly acted -- good acting does a lot... Still, for whatever reason, I could never get around Alfred not being British. There's something about British culture for that role that could not be replaced to me... I don't know why.

In my opinion, Halle Berry could have done beautifully as Catwoman if the director had clue one about what he was doing. Alas, he did not, he acknowledged no history of the character (which has nothing to do with race), and produced a bomb.

I could get into having a black James T. Kirk if it was acknowledged from the beginning that this is an alternate reality that we're following. Within the parameters of the "Star Trek" series, this shouldn't be a problem. But trying to pretend it's the same continuity and retconning the pre-established race and history of the character grates.

I think there's a lot to be said in setting the context of a story such that alternate race roles can be explored. There's a strange, Hitchcock-like movie called "Suture" that features Dennis Haysbert playing the identical twin of a white actor whom he looks nothing like. And the other actors seem not to be able to tell them apart. On the surface, it sounds absurd, but in the context of it being avante-garde cinema, you just go with it, and it allows for an unusual feel to the piece you wouldn't get if the actors in fact looked alike or were of the same race.

Someone mentioned a Hamlet set in China -- if the whole thing was done so, royal families and all, fine... Just like "The Lion King" was the animated children's version of Hamlet for the African veldt. There's a lot to be said for having context to provide for exploring new races (and species) in these roles, as well as exploring new racial dynamics...

Imagine a "Huckleberry Finn" with races reversed and an African-American Huck always referring to his friend as "Whitey Jim" or "Cracker Jim"...

Beyond resetting the context for the characters, I think opting for different race portrayals will always be a bit of a gamble, mostly dependent on how strongly a race has been set as part of the character (you can't have a white person portraying the superhero "Black Panther" aka "T'Challa", a chieftain of a native African tribe), and the ferocity of fans to defend traditional continuity (Superman is an alien from Krypton, but has always been depicted as caucasian in appearance, and likely always will be).

[brianspencer66]

I do think those who haven;t read the comic book will go see the movie, if something about what they have heard or seen appeals to them. As far as "roots" goes, i've never seen the movie, but i think one of the reasons it got such attention was because of Opra's support of it. I remember watching a Bio on her, and she seemed to have a lot to do with supporting this movie. If i remember correctly as well, I could have sworn critics also kicked the movie around the block after it was shown.



Unfortionatly i don;t know enough about the hiring process.However, i think whereever you have a majority of one race, you will have a majority of TV shows and movies aimed or at least staring similiar ethnic groups of that race.

Personal, and perhaps it's a racial thing i don;t know, i don;t find many all black TV sicoms really grab me. I did grow up watching Fresh Prince, Family Matters (is that the one with Steve Irkel?), and the Cosby show(and i loved Fat Albert!), but for some reason i didn;t take to the newer black comedy shows as i grew up. Maybe some were just horrible shows (sister sister? seriously come on people!), or maybe i just didn't feel i could relate with the chars, but none of them really stuck, and i ended up watching shows that were at eaither all white (Loved the Drew Carey Show) or mixed (DPS is the best trek series of all!).



I pretty much agree with what your saying, but i just would think it would be a bad idea to try and take a charactor who is historically one race, and make them into another race for no other reason to appeal to fans of that minority. I'm somewhat a fan of political correctness, but i think if they took somebody like wonderwomen and made her into a black women, would be just too much.

Well as far as Roots is concerned and the Oprah connection your wrong there Cosmos. See Roots was braodcast on ABC TV as a 5 part TV movie in 1977 and Oprah was not famous until the 1980s. And no citics loved the movie Im old enough to remember seeing it and it was indeed the highest rated TV movie in history. Oprah however did have a feature role in the movie the Color Purple and she did indeed praise the book.

As far as hiring practice goes well reread what I said before regarding Danny Glover et all. And yes black people tend to watch black shows and whites shows with white actors but there is enough cross over potential and advertising dollars to keep shows like "Sisters" or "Bernie Mac" on the air, so there is no reason not to have shows with a large black cast other than racism. but I see what you mean about the newer TV shows, but lets face it bad TV is not race specific most TV is garbage. I really prefer to watch PBS anyway.

As for your "it being to much" if Wonder Woman were black well why? Im not sure if your aware that on the old "Batman" tv series the Catwoman character was initally played by a white actress named Julie Newmar. Eventually she left the series and was replaced by "Eartha Kitt" a famous black actress who is still around today. Not only did she pull off the role but she was an even better Cat Woman than Newmar ever was. I dont recall the earth shattering or anyone complaining that Catwoman was black all the sudden. But they praised Kitt for enhancing the role and doing a better job. Im sorry to me this is all fiction and I cant get around how race should make a diffrence. To me Spider man is red and blue not black or white and what superheros stand for is somthing much more universal than the mere race of the actor playing it. And like I said and I know you agree most people seeing the movie are not comic book readers anyway.

With all that said Id like too add that whites have a privalege that people of color dont have. When every major superhero looks like a white person thats not problem for a white child but how does it make a black child feel to never see someone that looks like he or she. Sit back and close your eyes and REALLY REALLY stop and think about it for a little while and put yourself in anothers shoes and suspend your old fashioned belief system for a little while. In the end this all just fiction and regardless of selfish self intrest in "being true" to some fictional character. Id say its much less selfish and more important to be all inclusive and make all people feel included.

[JimmyBoy]

I'm not really for it. I'm for keeping it original. I'm sorry but the new Honeymooners was horrible as was Hallie Berry as Catwoman.

I do like it for comedic purposes such as Rob Schenider in Chuck and Larry as the Japanese-American reverend. I like to see other races try to pull of other races, whether it's meant to be serious or not. Changing original characters into different races I am against.

[Cosmo_ac]

Well as far as Roots is concerned and the Oprah connection your wrong there Cosmos. See Roots was braodcast on ABC TV as a 5 part TV movie in 1977 and Oprah was not famous until the 1980s. And no citics loved the movie Im old enough to remember seeing it and it was indeed the highest rated TV movie in history. Oprah however did have a feature role in the movie the Color Purple and she did indeed praise the book.


Ah,ok,my bad. I was probably thinking of "The Color Purple" then.

As far as hiring practice goes well reread what I said before regarding Danny Glover et all. And yes black people tend to watch black shows and whites shows with white actors but there is enough cross over potential and advertising dollars to keep shows like "Sisters" or "Bernie Mac" on the air, so there is no reason not to have shows with a large black cast other than racism. but I see what you mean about the newer TV shows, but lets face it bad TV is not race specific most TV is garbage. I really prefer to watch PBS anyway.



I don't know enough about Showbusiness to say one way or another, but i would imagine the people who are making/writing TV shows care more about money then making sure that only a few all black TV shows are on air.


As for your "it being to much" if Wonder Woman were black well why? Im not sure if your aware that on the old "Batman" tv series the Catwoman character was initally played by a white actress named Julie Newmar. Eventually she left the series and was replaced by "Eartha Kitt" a famous black actress who is still around today. Not only did she pull off the role but she was an even better Cat Woman than Newmar ever was. I dont recall the earth shattering or anyone complaining that Catwoman was black all the sudden. But they praised Kitt for enhancing the role and doing a better job.


I remember watching a bit of batman when i was younger. If i remember right, and i could be wrong, Newmar's char died, and then Kitt's catwomen came allong. That being said though, i don't think using the old batman show is a good example, as really, that show was all camp and i don't think anybody took much if any of it too seriously.

Im sorry to me this is all fiction and I cant get around how race should make a diffrence. To me Spider man is red and blue not black or white and what superheros stand for is somthing much more universal than the mere race of the actor playing it. And like I said and I know you agree most people seeing the movie are not comic book readers anyway.


Here's the thing though, and maybe because i read the comics i see it this way, but the suit spider-man wears, pretty much means nothing. It's not the suit that makes the hero, but as you so well pointed out, what they stand for and what they believe in that makes them the hero, and this is where generally the man or women behind the mask becomes important. Usually it's been their lives before they gained their powers that shapes them into the hero they are.

With all that said Id like too add that whites have a privalege that people of color dont have. When every major superhero looks like a white person thats not problem for a white child but how does it make a black child feel to never see someone that looks like he or she. Sit back and close your eyes and REALLY REALLY stop and think about it for a little while and put yourself in anothers shoes and suspend your old fashioned belief system for a little while. In the end this all just fiction and regardless of selfish self intrest in "being true" to some fictional character. Id say its much less selfish and more important to be all inclusive and make all people feel included.

More and more these days we are seeing black superhero's. Storm, Blade, Spawn, Static Shock, Green Lantern, Mace Window, and the list is probably larger and growing as we speak. I don;t believe being true to a long time established charactor has anything to do with being selfish or self interest. It's simply stating how things are.

Making people feel included is great, and i support it totally. However, i don't believe you need to change an existing charactors race to do that. I think we both agree that what makes a hero is their morals and beliefs and how they act. So why not create a new hero, an original one, instead of taking an old one and changing them?

[brianspencer66]

Ah,ok,my bad. I was probably thinking of "The Color Purple" then.



I don't know enough about Showbusiness to say one way or another, but i would imagine the people who are making/writing TV shows care more about money then making sure that only a few all black TV shows are on air.




I remember watching a bit of batman when i was younger. If i remember right, and i could be wrong, Newmar's char died, and then Kitt's catwomen came allong. That being said though, i don't think using the old batman show is a good example, as really, that show was all camp and i don't think anybody took much if any of it too seriously.



Here's the thing though, and maybe because i read the comics i see it this way, but the suit spider-man wears, pretty much means nothing. It's not the suit that makes the hero, but as you so well pointed out, what they stand for and what they believe in that makes them the hero, and this is where generally the man or women behind the mask becomes important. Usually it's been their lives before they gained their powers that shapes them into the hero they are.



More and more these days we are seeing black superhero's. Storm, Blade, Spawn, Static Shock, Green Lantern, Mace Window, and the list is probably larger and growing as we speak. I don;t believe being true to a long time established charactor has anything to do with being selfish or self interest. It's simply stating how things are.

Making people feel included is great, and i support it totally. However, i don't believe you need to change an existing charactors race to do that. I think we both agree that what makes a hero is their morals and beliefs and how they act. So why not create a new hero, an original one, instead of taking an old one and changing them?

Well to start with the Newmar charcter did not die off. Julie Newmar appeared in 12 epoisodes of the show and during the 3rd season decided to film a movie due to the erratic schedule of not being a constant character in the TV seires. Thats when Kitt was asked to step in to fill the role. And well this show is a perfect example of what we are talking about here. Same with the old Superman series of the 50s or most TV shows dealing with superheros. They for the most part take poetic licence and simply dont stick to what is in the comics as they want a wider audience.

Ok you say what he wears is not important and I agree. Its the person behind the mask right. Well arent good virtues universal? Regardless of color? Dont these things transend racial or sexual backrounds. Its somthing we all understand.

As for the list of more and more black superheros. Well im not comic book reader and the only one Ive heard of was the Green lantern. And Im well aware that they are making strides to bring more people of color to the fore. But I also dont understand why race is such an issue here when someone suggested that Hallie Berry play one role. I truly dont think this a a big deal and will hardly ruin the landscape for comic book purest.

[Iggy pop]

The way I see it there is nothing specifically white about Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne other than the fact that they have been historically portryed as white. In fact, I think we need black actors playing parts like Bruce Wayne. The two promient areas that blacks are seen today are gangster rappers and sports stars. You have very few middle class and professional portrayals in the media today, and that is not good. I have met more than one white person that honestly does not believe there is a black middle class out there.

[kis123]

The way I see it there is nothing specifically white about Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne other than the fact that they have been historically portryed as white. In fact, I think we need black actors playing parts like Bruce Wayne. The two promient areas that blacks are seen today are gangster rappers and sports stars. You have very few middle class and professional portrayals in the media today, and that is not good. I have met more than one white person that honestly does not believe there is a black middle class out there.

:bowing::bowing::bowing::bowing::bowing:

As far as I'm concerned, the thread could stop right here with this statement!

For all of you who think these character portrayals should remailn white, do you realize what the social climate was when these characters were originally created? The world was a completely different place back then. We're now in a society where racism and class-ism is unacceptable (sorta') and we should remain consistent to the new value set!

And Iggy, unfortunately your "friends" are very short-sighted and obviously don't get out much beyond their own communities because I grew up in middle and upper class black America and they very much still exist and are growing. When they end up living next door to some of your friends, they'll believe it then won't they? Tell them to open their eyes and look around them and stop watching so much television because we're not being accurately portrayed on any level in the media. The postitive things we do aren't interesting enough for tv; keep the rappers and athletes in front and convince the masses that's all that exists. Some people are no more than ignorant sheep that can be so easily led!

[brianspencer66]

The way I see it there is nothing specifically white about Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne other than the fact that they have been historically portryed as white. In fact, I think we need black actors playing parts like Bruce Wayne. The two promient areas that blacks are seen today are gangster rappers and sports stars. You have very few middle class and professional portrayals in the media today, and that is not good. I have met more than one white person that honestly does not believe there is a black middle class out there.

You go Iggy!! Great point!!:D

[SlaverTickler]

Would you go to see a movie with Beyoncé as Wonder Woman?

Give us your thoughts! :xpulcy:

No Beyonce shouldn't play Wonder Woman, Helen Ganzarolli should, she is Brazillian, but looks just like Lynda. If Lynda could do is so can she (assuming she can act and speak english). Casting Beyonce or Tyra Banks as Wonder Woman would be as stupid as casting Nikki Ziering as Storm in an X-Man movie. Believe me if a blue eyed blonde white woman were cast as storm Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, and Louy Ferakahn would be pissing up a storm, and for once I would have to agree with them 100%.

Click this, and prepare to eat crow!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcd0BhBJ2sQ

[CitY of MicA]

No Beyonce shouldn't play Wonder Woman, Helen Ganzarolli should, she is Brazillian, but looks just like Lynda. If Lynda could do is so can she (assuming she can act and speak english). Casting Beyonce or Tyra Banks as Wonder Woman would be as stupid as casting Nikki Ziering as Storm in an X-Man movie. Believe me if a blue eyed blonde white woman were cast as storm Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, and Louy Ferakahn would be pissing up a storm, and for once I would have to agree with them 100%.
I would agree with them, too, hypothetically speaking. There are comparitvely few Black superheroes in the comics, and nearly all the ones portrayed on screen are White. So it would be more than a bit galling to take one of those few non-white heroes, and then cast a White actor/actress. The question would be do all Heroes have to be White? However, if we had Black, Asian, and Latino Superheroes being cast as Wonder Woman, Batman, and Iron Man, and portraying onscreen heroes in abundance, I wouldn't object to casting a White actress as Storm. If Al Sharpton kicked up a hypothetical storm (if you will) at that point, I wouldn't agree with him.

How about Angela Basset as Wonder Woman?

[SlaverTickler]

And did you know that Lassie was played by both male and female Collies in the old TV series? No one cares, its fantasy and entertainment. If one wants to be a die hard fan then Id stick to the comics.

That has to be the stupid thing I have ever read. So if Wesly Snipes played wonder woman would you be ok with that? Shit, please, fuck me, who the hell can tell the gender of a dog. The Truth is Wonder Woman is white, Superman is White, Batman is white thats it, and a white person should play these charactores in a live action adaptation. What happens when a little black girs see a black Wonder Woman in a movie and then when she goes to check out the comic see's she isn't black. If you don't want the film to make money then miss cast it like this and you'll see. And don't tell me Kis wouldn't come on here frothing at the mouth if a white chick had been cast as Storm in the X-Men movie, because that is the one thing I bring up that she fails to comment on.

If they cast Brock Lesner as Luke Cage I would feel the same way, if they cast Jackie Chan as Captain Marvel it would be rediculas. Chris Rock's attention grabber when he bitched about wanting to be Spider-Man was just that, "I play the race card and all camera's will be on me." and thats what happened. I know lets cast Matt Damon as Green Latnern John Stewart that makes sence, I'm sure no one would be offended by that idea.

[SlaverTickler]

How about Angela Basset as Wonder Woman?

What do you think? Have you read anything I typed, I mean did you really read it? How about Brock Lezner as Luck Cage? Nikki Ziering as Storm, Jackie Chan as the Flash, or Justin Timberlake as Fire Star? When they cast that guy as Venom/Eddie Brock in Spidey3 people were ticked off because he wasn't big enough (in stature) for the roll. How do you think they will react to the race issue. I wonder how Kis and other black people would feel if they cast a white chick as Uhura in Star Trek 11? They aren't but what if they did. Chances are this Wonder Woman movie isn't even going to get made, but the point is that the person in the movie should look like the charactore from the comic, end of discution.

[CitY of MicA]

How about Angela Basset as Wonder Woman? What do you think? Have you read anything I typed, I mean did you really read it? How about Brock Lezner as Luck Cage? Nikki Ziering as Storm, Jackie Chan as the Flash, or Justin Timberlake as Fire Star? When they cast that guy as Venom/Eddie Brock in Spidey3 people were ticked off because he wasn't big enough (in stature) for the roll. How do you think they will react to the race issue. I wonder how Kis and other black people would feel if they cast a white chick as Uhura in Star Trek 11? They aren't but what if they did. Chances are this Wonder Woman movie isn't even going to get made, but the point is that the person in the movie should look like the charactore from the comic, end of discution.
What do I think? I think it would be a good idea; that's why I posted it. It's entirely possible, maybe even likely, that people will have differing opinions on this topic. Yes, I read everything you typed, I really read it (now you've got me sounding like Sally Field). Did you read what I wrote? I didn't agree with you.

I'll quote myself from earlier this thread, because I just don't think I can express myself as well as I did a few months ago; people of all ethnicities should be considered for open roles of a non-historical nature, unless the role was written for a specific ethnicity due to a point the writer is making about race/ethnicity. These are fictional, fantasy characters. Skin color is, in most cases, unessential to the characters and storylines.

[SlaverTickler]

I'll quote myself from earlier this thread, because I just don't think I can express myself as well as I did a few months ago; people of all ethnicities should be considered for open roles of a non-historical nature, unless the role was written for a specific ethnicity due to a point the writer is making about race/ethnicity. These are fictional, fantasy characters. Skin color is, in most cases, unessential to the characters and storylines.

Well thats wrong, it is essencial because that is what the charactore is, it's documented, I can hold up and issue of Wonder Woman and say "Look Wonder Woman is white." I can hold up a copy of Power Man and Iron Fist and say "Look Luke Cage is black." I want a white person as Wonder Woman, I want a black guy as Luke Cage, I want and Asian to play The Master of Kung Fu, because that is what the person is in the book. All this is PC ass kissing bull shit.

[dskodj]

my feelings is why the hell cant hollywood just leave the good ol stuff the hell alone, actually get some writing talent and creativity and come up with original things instead of remake after remake as its been the past several years. the art of film and entertainment has gone downhill just as much as music.

[dskodj]

Well thats wrong, it is essencial because that is what the charactore is, it's documented, I can hold up and issue of Wonder Woman and say "Look Wonder Woman is white." I can hold up a copy of Power Man and Iron Fist and say "Look Luke Cage is black." I want a white person as Wonder Woman, I want a black guy as Luke Cage, I want and Asian to play The Master of Kung Fu, because that is what the person is in the book. All this is PC ass kissing bull shit.

but if i have to deal with these remakes...what he said is my answer

[brianspencer66]

That has to be the stupid thing I have ever read. So if Wesly Snipes played wonder woman would you be ok with that? Shit, please, fuck me, who the hell can tell the gender of a dog. The Truth is Wonder Woman is white, Superman is White, Batman is white thats it, and a white person should play these charactores in a live action adaptation. What happens when a little black girs see a black Wonder Woman in a movie and then when she goes to check out the comic see's she isn't black. If you don't want the film to make money then miss cast it like this and you'll see. And don't tell me Kis wouldn't come on here frothing at the mouth if a white chick had been cast as Storm in the X-Men movie, because that is the one thing I bring up that she fails to comment on.

If they cast Brock Lesner as Luke Cage I would feel the same way, if they cast Jackie Chan as Captain Marvel it would be rediculas. Chris Rock's attention grabber when he bitched about wanting to be Spider-Man was just that, "I play the race card and all camera's will be on me." and thats what happened. I know lets cast Matt Damon as Green Latnern John Stewart that makes sence, I'm sure no one would be offended by that idea.

Isnt this an old post? Whey are we bringing this crap up again ?

[SlaverTickler]

Isnt this an old post? Whey are we bringing this crap up again ?

Because I can, and because I found a Brazilian model who looks more like Wonder Woman then Tyra Banks and Beyonce who seem to be, being, pitched here (or at least were).

[Heeko]

Wonder Woman has been cast. Her name is Megan Gale.

[SlaverTickler]

Wonder Woman has been cast. Her name is Megan Gale.

A little thin, but she is tall so we'll see how it goes I guess.

[SlaverTickler]

A little thin, but she is tall so we'll see how it goes I guess.

Lynda better have a decent cameo as WW's mom, other wise I'll have no reason to go.

[kis123]

Wonder Woman has been cast. Her name is Megan Gale.

Too bad her name isn't Beyonce' knowles or Tyra Banks. They have the height, body size, and attitude to carry the role.

If Will Smith and jennifer lopez can play roles normally held by white actors, i see no reason why these ladies couldn't rock the WW character.

It's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!!!!!!!:woot:

[Dr. Vollin]

How about Angela Basset as Wonder Woman?

Best idea in this thread.

While we're suggesting casting ideas, I think Richard Brooks would make a more than decent Batman.

[Laugh]

Keep in mind the reason a lot of comic characters are 'white' are because they were created during a time of racial ignorance and prejudice. Non-whites were never given any meaningful roles or seen in print because (at that time) they were not considered equal.

Most of the famous comic characters such as Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were created in the 1930's. No way under the sun, at that time, would a non-white ever be even considered for such status.

So to pick up a comic and say "Wonder Woman (or Batman or Superman) is white" is a reflection of 1930s thinking. It's not hard to be drawn as 'white' if it's the only thing to choose from.

It's the 1930s and I'm creating or selling comics. Whites are the only ones that can afford to buy them, the only ones to read them and most likely the only ones to see them - why on earth would I make the main characters non-white?

A total reflection of racial ignorance and prejudice at the time. I would hope we are past that, seeing as this is now 2008.

Comicbook characters are not the only reflection of racial ignorance of the times. In the 1970s, there was a show called "Kung Fu" which starred David Carradine as Caine, the lead character.

The story outline is after avenging the death of his teacher, a Shaolin monk flees China to the American West and helps people while being pursued by bounty hunters.

The show was originally conceived by Bruce Lee. But the producers did not offer the role to Bruce Lee since they did not feel that the American audience (at that time) would accept a Chinese actor as a lead, therefore looked for a Caucasian actor to fill the role.

And we all know Bruce Lee knows nothing about martial arts so better give that role to a white because a non-white would not be accepted. Besides, Bruce Lee would never fit the look for the role. (sarcasm)

Talk about racial ignorance and stupidity?

The character of Mr Spock was almost never seen because he was created with pointy ears. It's the late 1960s. We can't have a character that resembles the stereo-type of Satan on TV!! No one would ever watch the show!

Yet Star Trek is the most watched TV show in television history.

Again, another example of IGNORANCE.

My point is this is 2008. I would hope our future visions are past those of the 1930s. If we see everything as "cast in stone" because that's the way it was in the ignorant years of american media, then we are in sad trouble.

[SlaverTickler]

Thanks for the help...

Comicbook characters are not the only reflection of racial ignorance of the times. In the 1970s, there was a show called "Kung Fu" which starred David Carradine as Caine, the lead character.

The story outline is after avenging the death of his teacher, a Shaolin monk flees China to the American West and helps people while being pursued by bounty hunters.

The show was originally conceived by Bruce Lee. But the producers did not offer the role to Bruce Lee since they did not feel that the American audience (at that time) would accept a Chinese actor as a lead, therefore looked for a Caucasian actor to fill the role.

And we all know Bruce Lee knows nothing about martial arts so better give that role to a white because a non-white would not be accepted. Besides, Bruce Lee would never fit the look for the role. (sarcasm)

Talk about racial ignorance and stupidity?


Basicly casting a a black actress as Wonder Woman would be the exact same thing in reverce. I agree with everything else you posted here. It's true that most comic writers (even to this day) tend to be white, and tend to be male (though Wonder Woman's currently has a female writer and I think the artist might be as well). To me this is no different then casting Liz Taylor as Cleopatra and making her up to apear to have darker skin. I'm tired of making the samd arugument here but the truth is the truth. A white guys as Luke Cage, a white woman as Storm would be just as stupid as Tyra or Beyonce playing Wonder Woman.

[SlaverTickler]

Too bad her name isn't Beyonce' Knowles or Tyra Banks. They have the height, body size, and attitude to carry the role.

If Will Smith and jennifer lopez can play roles normally held by white actors, i see no reason why these ladies couldn't rock the WW character.

It's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!!!!!!!:woot:

Lynda Carter: 5'9" Bust 36.5" Waist: 25" Hips 36"

Hellen Ganzarolli: 5'9" Bust 36" Waist 27" Hips 39"

We are basicly talking about a Brazillian born clone here. You said your main arguments for Beyonce and Tyra were Attitude and curves. Well Hellen's curves are almost inch for inch the same as Lynda's (whom you also said you liked from the tv show). She looks really comfortable in front of the camera, and she even has her own costume for crying out loud. As for this Attitude, Wonder Woman never had an attitude, she was regal, tough and had heart. Attude to me is J.Lo demanding a limo to go take her across the street, thats not Wonder Woman, thats not even a hero. Go watch the old Wonder Woman show and tell me where Lynda displayed Attitude once? Wonder Woman is no Diva, she looks down upon nobody and respect everyone except the dishonest and of course people who bash chicks.

Let me put it to you this way. There have been many Green Lanterns, at least 5 for the area that involves earth in the DC univerce. One was a red alien who dies. The others have been Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, and Kyle Ryner (the was also a golden age guy but I am using the Silver Age corps lanterns here). John Stewart is black, so if an actor were cast as him in a GL movie I would expect him to be black. However if it were Hal Jordan he should be white, because the charactore is white in the comics. Personaly I would use Stewart simply because most kids know hime from the "Justice League" cartoon and kids are the market.

If Tyra or Beyonce were being cast in a film where the roll was considered a more traditional for a white person or even a male (like an exectutive buisness type) and she got it that is called social evolution. Not unlike Uhura on Star Trek. However Wonder Woman as looking a certain way, and the actress who plays her should look something like her. Why do you think Arnold was cast as Conan, because he looked the most like him.

Just remember all this if they caste a white guy as Luke Cage, becaue (ironic as this sound) I will be speaking against it, while you won't be in a position to say shit.

[kis123]

Lynda Carter: 5'9" Bust 36.5" Waist: 25" Hips 36"

Hellen Ganzarolli: 5'9" Bust 36" Waist 27" Hips 39"

We are basicly talking about a Brazillian born clone here. You said your main arguments for Beyonce and Tyra were Attitude and curves. Well Hellen's curves are almost inch for inch the same as Lynda's (whom you also said you liked from the tv show). She looks really comfortable in front of the camera, and she even has her own costume for crying out loud. As for this Attitude, Wonder Woman never had an attitude, she was regal, tough and had heart. Attude to me is J.Lo demanding a limo to go take her across the street, thats not Wonder Woman, thats not even a hero. Go watch the old Wonder Woman show and tell me where Lynda displayed Attitude once? Wonder Woman is no Diva, she looks down upon nobody and respect everyone except the dishonest and of course people who bash chicks.

Let me put it to you this way. There have been many Green Lanterns, at least 5 for the area that involves earth in the DC univerce. One was a red alien who dies. The others have been Hal Jordan, Guy Gardner, John Stewart, and Kyle Ryner (the was also a golden age guy but I am using the Silver Age corps lanterns here). John Stewart is black, so if an actor were cast as him in a GL movie I would expect him to be black. However if it were Hal Jordan he should be white, because the charactore is white in the comics. Personaly I would use Stewart simply because most kids know hime from the "Justice League" cartoon and kids are the market.

If Tyra or Beyonce were being cast in a film where the roll was considered a more traditional for a white person or even a male (like an exectutive buisness type) and she got it that is called social evolution. Not unlike Uhura on Star Trek. However Wonder Woman as looking a certain way, and the actress who plays her should look something like her. Why do you think Arnold was cast as Conan, because he looked the most like him.

Just remember all this if they caste a white guy as Luke Cage, becaue (ironic as this sound) I will be speaking against it, while you won't be in a position to say shit.

ST, I'm not having this argument with you at all! You are obsessed with wonder woman and Lynda Carter which is why you can't see anyone else with the role other than a white woman. Since you are so Lynda Carter obsessed, you do know she's half hispanic right?

And yes, there is a certain 'attitude' about Wonder Woman that a male like yourself doesn't get! She was one of a small handful of women in the 70s and 80s we young girls could look up to for strength and integrity in character. That's the 'attitude' I'm talking about! Whether you like it or not, both Tyra and Beyonce would pull it off since those are genuine personality traits they both possess in their real lives!

[kis123]

Keep in mind the reason a lot of comic characters are 'white' are because they were created during a time of racial ignorance and prejudice. Non-whites were never given any meaningful roles or seen in print because (at that time) they were not considered equal.

Most of the famous comic characters such as Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were created in the 1930's. No way under the sun, at that time, would a non-white ever be even considered for such status.

So to pick up a comic and say "Wonder Woman (or Batman or Superman) is white" is a reflection of 1930s thinking. It's not hard to be drawn as 'white' if it's the only thing to choose from.

It's the 1930s and I'm creating or selling comics. Whites are the only ones that can afford to buy them, the only ones to read them and most likely the only ones to see them - why on earth would I make the main characters non-white?

A total reflection of racial ignorance and prejudice at the time. I would hope we are past that, seeing as this is now 2008.

Comicbook characters are not the only reflection of racial ignorance of the times. In the 1970s, there was a show called "Kung Fu" which starred David Carradine as Caine, the lead character.

The story outline is after avenging the death of his teacher, a Shaolin monk flees China to the American West and helps people while being pursued by bounty hunters.

The show was originally conceived by Bruce Lee. But the producers did not offer the role to Bruce Lee since they did not feel that the American audience (at that time) would accept a Chinese actor as a lead, therefore looked for a Caucasian actor to fill the role.

And we all know Bruce Lee knows nothing about martial arts so better give that role to a white because a non-white would not be accepted. Besides, Bruce Lee would never fit the look for the role. (sarcasm)

Talk about racial ignorance and stupidity?

The character of Mr Spock was almost never seen because he was created with pointy ears. It's the late 1960s. We can't have a character that resembles the stereo-type of Satan on TV!! No one would ever watch the show!

Yet Star Trek is the most watched TV show in television history.

Again, another example of IGNORANCE.

My point is this is 2008. I would hope our future visions are past those of the 1930s. If we see everything as "cast in stone" because that's the way it was in the ignorant years of american media, then we are in sad trouble.

:xpulcy::xpulcy::xpulcy::xpulcy:
:bowing::bowing::bowing::bowing:

Thank you! This is exactly my point!

We are in the new millenium-the 21st century for crying out loud!! Why not try others in the role instead of sticking to old stereotypes? Who is this Helen Gale anyway? Sounds like an unknown to me; how many tickets will she really sell?

[SlaverTickler]

:xpulcy::xpulcy::xpulcy::xpulcy:
:bowing::bowing::bowing::bowing:

Thank you! This is exactly my point!

We are in the new millenium-the 21st century for crying out loud!! Why not try others in the role instead of sticking to old stereotypes? Who is this Helen Gale anyway? Sounds like an unknown to me; how many tickets will she really sell?

Yes your point, witch is bull shit. You want to simply do a roll reversle. Just like Chief Gllespie said to Det. Tibbs "Your just like us... aintcha?". Remeber a little movie called Superman back in 1979, well it featured an unknown named Chris Reeve in the lead roll, I heard it did pretty good. Then of course their was the Wonder Woman tv show that featured an unknown named... um... I forget, and it ran for three years and is a cult favorite. I don't like who they have picked to play Wonder Woman either, because she is a stick. However if they put a strong cast around her (like Gene Hackman and Brando in Superman) then the movie could do well. Besides it's not just a Wonder Woman movie it is the Justice League movie, so their will be other heroes in it.

And I was fully aware that Lynda was half Mexican. She also atribute her figure to both ethnic backgrounds. At any rait the producers have made their choice, I just hope Lynda hands off the tiara to this new girl. After that I will probably sleep through the rest of the movie. If she's not in it, then I probably won't go.

[SlaverTickler]

ST, I'm not having this argument with you at all! You are obsessed with wonder woman and Lynda Carter which is why you can't see anyone else with the role other than a white woman. Since you are so Lynda Carter obsessed, you do know she's half hispanic right?

And yes, there is a certain 'attitude' about Wonder Woman that a male like yourself doesn't get! She was one of a small handful of women in the 70s and 80s we young girls could look up to for strength and integrity in character. That's the 'attitude' I'm talking about! Whether you like it or not, both Tyra and Beyonce would pull it off since those are genuine personality traits they both possess in their real lives!

Your right, becaue I was born in 1973 and was brought up by a liberal minded father. The same father who told me how stupid it was that Dorthy Dandridge couldn't swim in the hotel pool, but that 4 black guys could clean it after she put her foot in the water. "Integrity in charactore" isn't attitude in a hero, it's a prerequisite (yes, I looked that word up :D).

Hero- n pl Heroes
Princable charactore in a film, or book, play, etc; man greatly admired fore exceptional qualities or achievements. Heroine n fem Heroic adj courageous; of, like, or befitting a hero. Heroics pl n exstravagant behavior. Heroically adv Heroism [her-oh-izz-um] n

Basicly what your trying to say is the my picks arn't capable of doing the job because a black actress could do it better. The reasson you won't argue the points I've made is because you can't. I've busted you in mid prejudice, because both of your picks are black women, and that is part of your reason for picking them. My picks were based on possible resemblance to the charactore. You were partly right earlier, I should not have called you a racist before, because that term isn't true, however prejudice can be a different thing. We all want to look up at the big screen and see someone who reminds us of us in the cape and cowle kicking the bad guys ass, and I uderstand that you want to see more black women in heroic rolls, probably black men too. However you have to be careful that in you desire to see your people viewed as such that you don't barrie somebody els' because then you become the very thing you are striving to fight against. Thats how a hero (or heroine) ends up becoming a villian.

Hey... I had a moment of depth... yay for me! :dogpile:

[He-Man]

They cast an Australian...To play a Canadian...In an American movie.:illogical


Not to mention the actor was kinda tall, and didn't have much hair--while Wolverine is a short, hairy dude.

Although if you wanna talk weird, wasn't there an X-Men cartoon in the 80s that had Wolverine with an Australian accent? (i'm pretty sure I remember that) Now THAT made me go "WFT?"

[kis123]

Your right, becaue I was born in 1973 and was brought up by a liberal minded father. The same father who told me how stupid it was that Dorthy Dandridge couldn't swim in the hotel pool, but that 4 black guys could clean it after she put her foot in the water. "Integrity in charactore" isn't attitude in a hero, it's a prerequisite (yes, I looked that word up :D).

Hero- n pl Heroes
Princable charactore in a film, or book, play, etc; man greatly admired fore exceptional qualities or achievements. Heroine n fem Heroic adj courageous; of, like, or befitting a hero. Heroics pl n exstravagant behavior. Heroically adv Heroism [her-oh-izz-um] n

Basicly what your trying to say is the my picks arn't capable of doing the job because a black actress could do it better. The reasson you won't argue the points I've made is because you can't. I've busted you in mid prejudice, because both of your picks are black women, and that is part of your reason for picking them. My picks were based on possible resemblance to the charactore. You were partly right earlier, I should not have called you a racist before, because that term isn't true, however prejudice can be a different thing. We all want to look up at the big screen and see someone who reminds us of us in the cape and cowle kicking the bad guys ass, and I uderstand that you want to see more black women in heroic rolls, probably black men too. However you have to be careful that in you desire to see your people viewed as such that you don't barrie somebody els' because then you become the very thing you are striving to fight against. Thats how a hero (or heroine) ends up becoming a villian.

Hey... I had a moment of depth... yay for me! :dogpile:

now you're putting words in my mouth! I can speak for myself thank you very much! And what do you mean by the 'your people' comment? You could've kept that to yourself! You're accusing me of the very thing you're doing when you say the role has to be played by a white woman in order for it to be legitimate. Once again, Lynda Carter is half hispanic; if the shows producers had your attitude and mindset, she never would've gotten the role in the first place!!

I said they'd be good choices because I think either of them could carry the role, not because they're black! They don't exactly have trained acting ability but both have built their careers through a lot of adversity and endurance. No one handed them anything, they worked hard and built careers for themeselves and that is strength and integrity of character. You don't catch them on TMZ now do you?? They're not on drugs or in and out of rehab, do you?? That is called strength and integrity in character to me!! They represent well not just to my race but to Americans in general. I can see little girls aspiring to be like them as opposed to the Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohans, or Amy Winehouses around here just tearing their lives apart in front of the whole world!

This really has nothing to do with race at all; it just happens to be both women are black. They're also tall, close to Lynda's size, and can carry the role with strength and integrity of character much in the same way Lynda did.

[kis123]

Yes your point, witch is bull shit. You want to simply do a roll reversle. Just like Chief Gllespie said to Det. Tibbs "Your just like us... aintcha?". Remeber a little movie called Superman back in 1979, well it featured an unknown named Chris Reeve in the lead roll, I heard it did pretty good. Then of course their was the Wonder Woman tv show that featured an unknown named... um... I forget, and it ran for three years and is a cult favorite. I don't like who they have picked to play Wonder Woman either, because she is a stick. However if they put a strong cast around her (like Gene Hackman and Brando in Superman) then the movie could do well. Besides it's not just a Wonder Woman movie it is the Justice League movie, so their will be other heroes in it.

And I was fully aware that Lynda was half Mexican. She also atribute her figure to both ethnic backgrounds. At any rait the producers have made their choice, I just hope Lynda hands off the tiara to this new girl. After that I will probably sleep through the rest of the movie. If she's not in it, then I probably won't go.

I have questions for you;

Are you high????

Are you on something???

What the hell is wrong with you???

Prove your accusations or keep them to yourself!!! You are the one turning this into a race war, not me! You're just pissed because I brought alternatives to your lilly white idea of your Wonder Woman obsession! Get the hell over it for crying out loud and move on with your life!!

[SlaverTickler]

now you're putting words in my mouth! I can speak for myself thank you very much! And what do you mean by the 'your people' comment? You could've kept that to yourself! You're accusing me of the very thing you're doing when you say the role has to be played by a white woman in order for it to be legitimate. Once again, Lynda Carter is half hispanic; if the shows producers had your attitude and mindset, she never would've gotten the role in the first place!!


Actualy the only person who wanted Lynda for the role was the producer, the telivition station didn't want to go with an unknown (sounds like somebody else around here). The reason Douglas S. Cramer went with Lynda was because as soon as he saw her he knew she was ment to play Wonder Woman, thats because she looked like Wonder Woman, and he had to fight tooth and nail to get her on the show. Lynda basicly got the part because Cramer said if you don't pick her you don't get me, and he had the contract to produce the show.

I stand by every thing else love me or hate me I am sticking with it.

[SlaverTickler]

I have questions for you;

Are you high????

Are you on something???

What the hell is wrong with you???

Prove your accusations or keep them to yourself!!! You are the one turning this into a race war, not me! You're just pissed because I brought alternatives to your lilly white idea of your Wonder Woman obsession! Get the hell over it for crying out loud and move on with your life!!

Hey I'm just saying when they cast a white guy as Luke Cage you've got no place to speak after all this.

[SlaverTickler]

Not to mention the actor was kinda tall, and didn't have much hair--while Wolverine is a short, hairy dude.

Although if you wanna talk weird, wasn't there an X-Men cartoon in the 80s that had Wolverine with an Australian accent? (i'm pretty sure I remember that) Now THAT made me go "WFT?"

The Australian accent was sort of funny to me in the old cartoon, "Do those guys really think we talk like that?" Jackman was a little tall, and he wasn't so harry, but look at the face, that's Wolverine, believe me. If this movie had been made 10 years earlier it would have been Mel Gibson, and the way things have gone for him lately I am glad it turned out not to be him. Ausie or not, Hugh nailed the role and looked alot like Wolverine, if he had been Canadian that would have been a cherry on the sunday, but that alot different then have a white chick play Storm, then we'll see how that one had gone over.

[kis123]

Hey I'm just saying when they cast a white guy as Luke Cage you've got no place to speak after all this.

i'm no big comic book fan so who the hell is Luke Cage??

Besides, you're way too obsessed to see the real point. It's an alternative choice, not a mandatory one! It's not like i'm going to spend one cent on seeing the movie anyway. You're the one going over the top on this, not me.

:sowrong:

Let it go ST........let it go!!!!

[SlaverTickler]

i'm no big comic book fan so who the hell is Luke Cage??

Besides, you're way too obsessed to see the real point. It's an alternative choice, not a mandatory one! It's not like i'm going to spend one cent on seeing the movie anyway. You're the one going over the top on this, not me.

:sowrong:

Let it go ST........let it go!!!!

Your the one who is obsessed with see a black actress in this roll Kis, my only intrest is that she looks like the charactore in the comic I read every month. My 2 picks so far have been a half Iranian named Catherine Bell and the other is that Brazilian spoke model who looks just like Wonder Woman (and happens to be what Lynda looks like). I've attached a photo of there should be a pic of Luke Cage from the first issue of Luke Cage: Hero for Hire. Maybe it's because you not a big comic fan is part of why you don't get where I'm coming from, I don't knwo, I just want what I see in the book to be on the screen, that is what I am obsesses with if anything.

Thats all I have to say on this.

[kis123]

Your the one who is obsessed with see a black actress in this roll Kis, my only intrest is that she looks like the charactore in the comic I read every month. My 2 picks so far have been a half Iranian named Catherine Bell and the other is that Brazilian spoke model who looks just like Wonder Woman (and happens to be what Lynda looks like). I've attached a photo of there should be a pic of Luke Cage from the first issue of Luke Cage: Hero for Hire. Maybe it's because you not a big comic fan is part of why you don't get where I'm coming from, I don't knwo, I just want what I see in the book to be on the screen, that is what I am obsesses with if anything.

Thats all I have to say on this.

you're as obsessed, irrational, and unreasonable as you've ever been! Instead of accepting a different OPINION, you chose to attack and accuse me of being racist. That's a real shame, ST because I was just starting to think you had grown up some. Guess it was wishful thinking......:sowrong:

And no, I'm not a big comic book fan; I have way too much reality to deal with things like education, family, work. You know, life and I don't have time for the comic fantasy world, thank you very much!

I see, you just want to point and counterpoint because I don't agree with you. Get over it and move on! Or better yet, stay as delusional as you seem to be right now--it obviously works well for you!!:wow::wow:

[SlaverTickler]

you're as obsessed, irrational, and unreasonable as you've ever been! Instead of accepting a different OPINION, you chose to attack and accuse me of being racist. That's a real shame, ST because I was just starting to think you had grown up some. Guess it was wishful thinking......:sowrong:

And no, I'm not a big comic book fan; I have way too much reality to deal with things like education, family, work. You know, life and I don't have time for the comic fantasy world, thank you very much!

I see, you just want to point and counterpoint because I don't agree with you. Get over it and move on! Or better yet, stay as delusional as you seem to be right now--it obviously works well for you!!:wow::wow:

First of all I took back the racist thing, being prejudice isn't the same as being racist, you can be prejudice in favore of something with out hating the other side, racist is flat out hatred. I did say it was wrong for me to say that a few posts back. Maybe you should find away to take 20 min's to endulge in some fantasy reading it might take a bit of the edge off of the things that are causing you such stress. You haven't gone point/counter point with me on this topic since the begining because all you can say is "Think Out Side The Box" well guess what they tried that with Cat Woman once and it tanked. You know why Sin City did so well, because the did exactly what was in the book for the movie. I don't want any more from the producers of this movie then for whats in the book to be in the film, thats where I am coming from. You may not like my perspective, but if this film is going to do well then I'm telling you that is how it's got to be done.

Now I hope this shit is over with, because I have other things to do to.

[kis123]

[QUOTE=SlaverTickler;1611897Now I hope this shit is over with, because I have other things to do to.[/QUOTE]

This is the only intelligent thing you've said this entire thread!!

I'm too busy with reality to indulge in any stupid comic book unrealistic fantasies. Comic books are for kids anyway IMO; most grow up and move on to something more adult!

May I suggest that you back away from the computer, go outside for some fresh air and a cup of coffee. I'm sure a little slice of reality would do you much good!

Oh Catwoman tanked because it was a horrible storyline, not because a black woman played the role! That's just another one of your backhanded stereotypical prejudiced comments. You're way too narrow-minded to think outside the box; that's for the more progressive