View Full Version : A victory for bin Laden
04-03-2002, 07:53 AM
Although he took his lumps tactically in the Afghan war, maniac bin Laden is now on the verge of a tremendous strategic victory over the west and the moderate Arab states. In the immediate aftermath of 9-11 the U.S. rightly determined that there should be no linkage between our struggle against Al Queda and the decades old Israeli-Palestinian conflict.Bin Laden, who really doesn't give a rats ass about the Palestinians, seized on the issue as a means to incite the greater war between Islam and the west that he so fervently desires. Ariel Sharon easily out-manuevered George Bush on the linkage issue by using Bush's own broadly defined terror doctrine as the justification for Israeli action. So now we have a situation where the issues are clearly linked and U.S. interests in the region have been severely damaged. If it does turn into all out war the only winners will be Osama bin Laden and his Al Queda cohorts.
04-03-2002, 04:13 PM
04-03-2002, 04:14 PM
Actually, given the recent swing in public opinion, I won't be at all surprised if we decide to intervene militarily in the situation after we dismantle Iraq. The importance of a steady oil supply will force our hand if nothing else. Rant and rave all you like, but we will do whatever is needed to ensure that production continues to meet demand...up to and including annexing countries that fail to meet the criteria that OPEC and the USA have agreed upon...this is why the other Arab states all pay lipservice to the proclamations of "oil embargo" that Iraq and Iran shout about, but don't cut production. They would be forfeiting the only item that is of value to us that they possess, and inviting disaster. Granted, we need to move away from the dependence level we have established upon foreign oil, but it will be on OUR timetable, not theirs.... Hopefully, we can promote a civilian government in Iraq, and reign in Irans extremists without having to demolish their infrastructure. This would allow these nations to rejoin the economic world and prosper once again along with us, rather than throwing resources they can ill afford at maintaining pathetic defenses against each other and the imaginary Great Satan they think we epitomize. A Palestinian state is a feasible idea, but not with the current leadership and propaganda being shoveled to the people of the region...such a shame...it could be awesome to see what a blend of these ancient religions could accomplish working in tandem, rather than at loggerheads constantly. Maybe the future will bring clarity...here's hoping! Q
04-03-2002, 07:51 PM
A glassier could out manouvre George Bush!
04-03-2002, 09:19 PM
If Bin Laden is still alive and what he wishes for is an all out war between the US and the Islamic world then Osama is as dumb as he is ugly. Essentially the US has seven large strategic battle groups, one of these battle groups alone could easily take care of the entire middle east region. Leaving the entire Islamic world as nothing more than a gigantic parking lot. If thats what you define as a victory for bin laden then bring it on.
04-03-2002, 09:38 PM
George W. Bush, on SNL- "Usama bin Laden, if you had any brains at all you woulda challenged me to a game of Scrabble!"
04-04-2002, 01:19 AM
Red, I know that you like to be "funny".....and sure, you are quite amusing, but that remark was going a little too far. I am quite proud of what our President has accomplished. I suggest you think about what you are saying before you say it. Is that how you really feel??
04-04-2002, 01:52 AM
Easy, Krokus, easy! And you, red indian - I thought you Brits were on OUR side.
Headtripper25 has a valid point. I posted the following in the World War III thread:
"The timing of the Palestinian terror bombing campaign against Israel is no coincidence. It's enemy action in the greater war. Consider the following:
"Israel's enemy is our enemy: Islamic extremists. The state sponsors and allies are the same: Libya, Iran, Iraq, Syria. The tactics are the same: murderous attacks on civilians, including women and children. They use their own women and children as human shields so that the Israeli response will result in television pictures of dead kids. That serves two purposes. Any Islamic government that cooperates with the West risks riots and insurrection at home. And it allows the anti-war Western Left to weep and wail, and prate about moral equivalency, thereby weakening Western resolve to finish this war, once and for all."
We can still win this war. We have no choice but to do so. But nobody said that it would be easy.
04-04-2002, 07:41 AM
I think some of you mistakenly believe that the war on terrorism is purely a military struggle. I read the same Charles Krauthammer article where he states that "American might is the only thing that the arab street understands." This is a naive and counter-productive viewpoint that has alienated us around the world. Sure we can turn the Middle east into a parking lot but such a "strategy" only gaurantees our own destruction. Do you people really think China and Russia will sit by idly while we destroy the middle east? They both have enough nukes to turn the U.S. into a parking lot. These are dangerous times and unfortunately our leadership is recklessly pursuing a unilateralist foriegn policy that is leading to un-precedented Anti-Americanism. The "I don't care what anyone else thinks" attitude of the administration is not winning us the support we desperately need to root out the Al Queda cells around the world.
I realise this is not a popular viewpoint on this very conservative board but you guys have had your say over and over again so maybe you ought to try listening for once.
p.s.- Q, I think it was very unfair for you to label my initial post as "ranting." The post contained no flames and was an opinion, not a rant.
04-04-2002, 12:52 PM
Is there any reason why the U.S. president should be above critisism? he is an elected leader and world statesman and therefore a public figure.I reserve the right to critisize him no matter how flippantly. Once again I find myself on the wrong end of direct personal abuse from Krokus simply because he disagrees with me.
We are indeed on your side as Strellnikov says but does this mean I or anyone else can not be critical of America? we can be allies but not always be in perfect harmony. Is this difficult to understand? during WW2 the British had many long and bitter disputes with the USA but at no time was there any doubt about who the enemy was. Did I really have to spell that out or are you guys having a laugh?
04-04-2002, 01:35 PM
You're right red indian, you shouldn't have to endure direct abuse, so I'm editing it. And you're right that Bush is not above criticism. However your statement came across less as a critique than as a catcall, so you shouldn't be surprised by the response. ;)
04-04-2002, 04:26 PM
Post deleted, and as long as you continue your personal attacks, they'll get deleted. It would be a good starting point for you to cut down your hatred, don't you think so?
04-04-2002, 04:55 PM
Sorry to say I wasn't aiming that one at your post, headtripper..lol! It was just a general message mostly pointed towards the national media in general...your opinion/post was read however, and i thought you made your points quite nicely. I'm not much on personal attacks, but do enjoy batting the 'ol ideological ball around a bit! Labels such as conservative and liberal tend to constrain one to little pigeonholes and boxes, and usually don't wind up fitting an individual too well...for instance, you probably consider me a "conservative", yet I believe strongly in the rights of women regarding abortion, an "anti-conservative" viewpoint on an explosive emotional issue. There's most likely quite a few places we agree, and just as likely more where we don't. Feel free to jump on my posts, but remember that I'm tough to categorize...;) Q
04-04-2002, 09:37 PM
Sorry Q, I guess I made my coffee a little too strong this morning..lol!
04-04-2002, 09:38 PM
I have listened and here is my reply. The war on terrorism is a military struggle whether you like it or not. It has been war for a long time and only recently has anyone had the guts to admit it. I could give a rat's ass if people elswhere around the world like it or not. We will eliminate terrorism where we find it, if you don't like it tough, just stay the heck out of our way. As for the Russian military I think it is probably pretty much in shambles and they really need us more than we need them. China is in a better situation but they really still do need us more than we need them. Of course if Clinton had not sold half our military secrets to China we would be in a better position but you can't have everything. The US is a leader and to be a leader you have to act like one. I for one am tired of having to cowtow to every country who still end up hating us no matter what we do anyway. There has always been Anti-Americanism and there always will be, big deal. What other people think should not stop us from doing what is right. As someone rightly mentioned a Roman saying from an earlier thread "I don't care if they love us so long as they fear us.". Do you really think anyone in the middle east is ever going to help us? They barely helped us to help Kuwait out. Thats even one of their own Arab countries. No one in the Arab world is going to lift a finger to help us no matter how much of the rest of the world is behind us. If however they realize the consequences of going against us as Reagan showed Khadafi then at the least they won't do anything against us. Khadafi has been real quiet after Reagan telegraphed a cruise missle to his tent. Ahhh the kind of diplomacy that actually works.
04-05-2002, 01:29 AM
It means "If God wills it", and it's a useful Islamic concept that has begun to work to our advantage. We're fighting members of a backward culture that has a warrior tradition. Compassion and restraint on our part are interpreted as weakness and irresolution. Our diplomacy, to be effective, MUST be backed up by application of overwhelming military force. The fact that we have evicted the Taliban from Afghanistan and given Al-Quaeda a beating is proof that - inshallah - God is on OUR side. That's enough to deter the less motivated. Notice how the enemy got fewer volunteers and recruits as the war progressed.
As for the highly motivated, we'll have to kill them all. It's them or us - no other choice.
04-05-2002, 08:51 PM
Excellently put Strelnikov.
04-05-2002, 09:28 PM
Anyone care to venture an idea why most intelligence agencies and think tanks the world over predicted that our "actions" would cause millions of people to flock to the extremists, overwhelmingly wrong, as we all now know....? Q :confused:
04-05-2002, 10:00 PM
Kurchatovium- I disagree with almost everything you say and have valid reasons for doing so. For you to say "stay the heck out of our way" implies that your view is the only "American" view and that anyone who disagrees with you should not have a voice. I guess you'd like to bully me out of the way so you can dialogue only with people who share your view. My message to you is that intellectual in-breeding causes deformities of thought.
04-06-2002, 12:09 AM
Headtripper25 I support fully your right to disagree with everything I say and would actually fight for your right to say it. This is what this war is about ultimately, it is about freedom and your right to be free to say what you want without fear of reprisal. More importantly it is about your right to exist, your right to live, the most basic human right of all. So believe it or not I am actually glad you are here arguing with us. There are so many places in the world where such disagreement would not be allowed, where it would be silenced. Perhaps I am a bit overzealous in my support for this country, perhaps it is because I take the time to realize what we have. If that is a deformity in my way of thinking then I'll gladly wear it with pride but I will let no one take away my right and your right to say what you think. So keep being you Headtripper25 and I guess I'll have to keep being me.
04-06-2002, 07:54 AM
Although mr bin laden was silly for all his terrorist atrocities and his silly beard, some of his views actually make sense.....such as western society taking too many things for granted, and losing sight of what the important things in life are. a lot of people in the richer areas of europe and america seem to think possesions and social class are all that are important, but those are things are just bollocks. its the same with people who complain about things that really do not need complaining about ( i used to work in a supermarket- ive heard some pretty silly things)
also, mr bin laden has been turned into a 'popular media villain' by the media around here, we dont KNOW what the real truth is, we just have to believe what we are told.
still........i hope they nuke the bastard.
04-06-2002, 08:58 AM
first red indian, yes you were out of line.
next; it is true, the only thing the arab mind respects is brute force. they are a naturaly aggresive, and violent culture, and respect only those that can beat them.
next; china, and russia would cry, and whine, but would do nothing to stop us. china offered to send a million man army into afganistan to catch bin-laden for us! russia also offered to send an army, if we'd pay the expenses. they realize that terrorism is not too far from reaching them, and are happy we are taking the lead in fighting it.
next; as president bush said, this is a simple issue, either you are on our side in this, or you are against us. what nation is going to say, "no we're with the terrorists!". the only ones that stupid are other middle east countries.
lastly, i'm sorry, but no, this is not a time for discussion, and back stabing the president, and our military efforts. it's only a time to show resolve, and suport for anyone trying to wipe out terrorists!
04-07-2002, 04:00 AM
Normally I steer clear of such political debates, and I'm quite positive this response will prove why.
Ever play the board game "Risk?" No one can hold onto the middle east unless he also holds Africa, Asia and Europe...and if you hold all that, you've essentially won the game.
Those people have been fighting amongst themselves since there have been people. That's why people migrated to other parts of the world in the first place. If we as westerners had no need for their all-important oil, I doubt we would show much interest in them or their dealings until one power rose from the ashes to threaten another point on the compass...and no doubt they would.
Admittedly, I was never a fan of George W. who I refer to as "Son-of-a-Bush" or his Daddy. Yet I have been impressed by his straight-forward action in Afganistan post-9-11. This thing in the middle-east has no straight-forward answer, however, and our President is balking somewhat (Hesitating? Waiting? Not sure what to do? Don't know the correct phrase, but that wasn't a slam on George W.) at taking direct steps. That's possibly the smartest thing he can do at this point.
Does anyone else wonder if we Americans would show as much interest in the monotonous series of Middle-eastern wars if we relied more heavily on home-grown fuel, taken from the grain we produce more of than the rest of the world? Is there a reason we have NOT already abandoned foreign oil in favor of this renewable recource? Would the people of the Middle-east hate Americans so much if we just left them alone and did not purchase their oil? Yes, they probably would.
The only obvious answers to the other questions I pose is that Big Oil, where the Bushes are members in high standing, does not yet own all of America's farms. Drought? That's what oil RESERVES are for.
As may be obvious by now, I keep as far from politics as possible in general. Not because I'm afraid of a good argument, but because most of the time a political argument has many elements unknown to common folk...Elements like greed, revenge, lust for power...All the elements good politicos and CEOs thrive on. If you're not one of them, it's not possible to win such an argument. If you ARE one of them, you might well refuse to win such an argument for fear of giving away key secrets! The right thing to do is ever so often the thing most such people avoid.
If my 2 cents isn't worth 2 cent, just pass me by.
04-07-2002, 11:16 AM
Haven't heard from you in awhile...hi! As for our ever dependent state of oil hunger, gotta agree that we would have both increased integrity and less economic impact if we took the steps to free ourselves from the oil in this area of the world. President Bush has taken one of the biggest steps we've seen in decades by considering rescinding the prohibitions on drilling in the Northern Alaskan fields...there is potentially more oil there than even we could use for a few thousand years. Still, I'd rather see us get over the fear of nuclear power and utilize more alternative sources (wind, waves, sun) as well...we might be able to shake OPEC within a decade if we applied ourselves to the problem rigorously. Hybrid cars and new battery storage systems would be a short term stopgap "help" as well. I had the pleasure of test driving a prototype hybrid, and that was 2 years ago...they've probably improved dramatically since then. Not sure if that would help the current upheaval, but it sure as hell would weaken the economy and ability to wage war of the surrounding states... Q
04-08-2002, 06:32 AM
Kurchatovium- I think one thing that you and I could agree on is the need to wipe out as much of Al Queda as we can. I see the Pakistani model as the most effective means of achieving this. Last week the CIA and the FBI combined with Pakistani intelligence to nail Abu Sabudayah, a leading Al Queda figure. This is the kind of cooperative effort that will bring results. Our intelligence failed prior to 9-11 because we had no Arab speaking agents and nobody working on the ground in Afghanistan. While this strategy is not without risks, I see it as the least destructive way of attaining our goals.
Take it Easy,
04-08-2002, 09:34 PM
I would agree as well the Pakistani's have proven themselves to be valuable allies. If even a few more of the arab nations were as cooperative things would move along at a much greater speed. Alas I feel that allies in this region are likely to be few and far between. Israel I think of as also being a valuable ally, unfortuanately that one gets us into a lot of trouble. I certainly have no wish to destroy everything in site in this region and if solutions can be found where we can accomplish our goals with no innocent casulities then I would say that is a very good thing. The example you pointed out is an excellent one.
I think if you and me can agree on stuff there still might be hope for peace in the Middle East. :)
04-08-2002, 10:30 PM
I would like to know who made him the almighty judge of the western world.It's none of his asshole business how we choose to live.If he doesn't like it,he can stick to humping goats.Screw this idea that we are guilty of some breach of ideology....I don't see much in the arab world that's worth a shit as far as superior ideology.
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