Don't curcify me, just a question

[alchemy]

This is just something that has been on mind lately. You know, every time you turn on the TV, all you hear is Obama this and Obama that. He's being hailed as the next JFK, he's being fawned over as this Christ-like, savior of our country, he's being praised left and right by the mass media. Hell, if you listen to some of the "news" programs, he's already a great president...and he hasn't even taken office yet. Personally, I find all of this to be ludicrous and absurd. It's like, he could take the office of the presidency, sit on his ass for 4 years and not do a damn thing, and STILL be hailed as one of the greatest presidents ever. It's actually offensive. Why not let his presidency speak for itself like every president before him? Anyway....

An interesting little query came to mind a while ago and I'd like opinions on it.

Just suppose...hypothetically, that Obama had run on the Republican ticket? You know, alternate universe type stuff. What if, his political philosophies were similar (with "Change" and all that), but were such that he sought out and won the Republican nomination (I suppose his competition on the Democrat side would have been Hillary)? Would he have gotten as many votes? Would he have won? If he had won, would any of the above paragraph be taking place? Would Obama STILL be thought of as the next JFK? Would all of the hollywood and television celebrities have supported and fawned over him?

Thoughts?

[Cy/MiG]

I think people are just desperate for hope after the last 8 years, justified or not.

The bar has been lowered so far that jumping over it seems a foregone conclusion.

I will agree that there might be other potential factors attributed to the overall popularity of Obama, but that really doesn't matter yet, IMO.

I'm waiting to see what he does his first 2 years before I render a verdict.

Like you said, it's WAY too early to vote aye or nay yet.

[maniactickler]

If he ran as a republican, he'd be labeled a madman by the democrats.

[jj82277]

This is just something that has been on mind lately. You know, every time you turn on the TV, all you hear is Obama this and Obama that. He's being hailed as the next JFK, he's being fawned over as this Christ-like, savior of our country, he's being praised left and right by the mass media. Hell, if you listen to some of the "news" programs, he's already a great president...and he hasn't even taken office yet. Personally, I find all of this to be ludicrous and absurd. It's like, he could take the office of the presidency, sit on his ass for 4 years and not do a damn thing, and STILL be hailed as one of the greatest presidents ever. It's actually offensive. Why not let his presidency speak for itself like every president before him? Anyway....

An interesting little query came to mind a while ago and I'd like opinions on it.

Just suppose...hypothetically, that Obama had run on the Republican ticket? You know, alternate universe type stuff. What if, his political philosophies were similar (with "Change" and all that), but were such that he sought out and won the Republican nomination (I suppose his competition on the Democrat side would have been Hillary)? Would he have gotten as many votes? Would he have won? If he had won, would any of the above paragraph be taking place? Would Obama STILL be thought of as the next JFK? Would all of the hollywood and television celebrities have supported and fawned over him?

Thoughts?
The political systme as we know it is based on the dems getting about 90-95% of the african american vote.if that ever normalized then the democratic party would no longer be a nationally viable entity...

[WorkInProgress]

I don't know what media you've been reading, Alchemy, but the major papers and online news services don't fit your description in the slightest. The stories running about Obama now have more to do with the tough challenges he's going to face, and with the fact that a lot of his supporters are disappointed in some of the moves he's made. So I think you're reacting to a phenomenon that's largely of your own imagination when you say that there's an overwhelming tendency to depict Obama as a messiah. There was a degree of euphoria when he won, for some pretty obvious reasons (not to be confused with saying that I would expect everybody to share the euphoria), but I'd say the assessments of him nowadays are pretty realistic, and again, I don't know what media you've been reading.

If he were a Republican, he wouldn't be doing very well right now, because Americans at the moment don't particularly want the Republicans running the show. But I'm sure the Republicans will be back, just as the Democrats are "back" now, and if Obama were a Republican at a time when voters wanted Republicans, he'd be getting fawned over by Republicans every bit as much as Obama is getting fawned over by Democrats, which still isn't anywhere near what you're making it out to be.

And make no mistake: Obama's got a tough job, not only with winning over his critics, but with keeping his fans. He's got a lot of balancing acts to pull off and I don't envy him. But I voted for him in the primary at a time when there were other viable choices, I voted for him in November, and I stand by that now.

[alchemy]

I don't know what media you've been reading, Alchemy, but the major papers and online news services don't fit your description in the slightest. The stories running about Obama now have more to do with the tough challenges he's going to face, and with the fact that a lot of his supporters are disappointed in some of the moves he's made. So I think you're reacting to a phenomenon that's largely of your own imagination when you say that there's an overwhelming tendency to depict Obama as a messiah. There was a degree of euphoria when he won, for some pretty obvious reasons (not to be confused with saying that I would expect everybody to share the euphoria), but I'd say the assessments of him nowadays are pretty realistic, and again, I don't know what media you've been reading.

If he were a Republican, he wouldn't be doing very well right now, because Americans at the moment don't particularly want the Republicans running the show. But I'm sure the Republicans will be back, just as the Democrats are "back" now, and if Obama were a Republican at a time when voters wanted Republicans, he'd be getting fawned over by Republicans every bit as much as Obama is getting fawned over by Democrats, which still isn't anywhere near what you're making it out to be.

And make no mistake: Obama's got a tough job, not only with winning over his critics, but with keeping his fans. He's got a lot of balancing acts to pull off and I don't envy him. But I voted for him in the primary at a time when there were other viable choices, I voted for him in November, and I stand by that now.

:bsflag:

Hold on, gotta go throw up...hang on a sec...

....

....

....

..there we go. That's ok, I didn't need that dinner anyway. It's cool.

So...

Um...how's life in that cave over there, little guy? Hmmm? You uh....you reading a lot of good books? Hmmm? You um....reading some news? Maybe...you know...reading into it what you want to read into it? Hmm? You doing that little guy? You um...you got a little place in your cave where you can stick your head in the sand every so often? Hmmm? That, um...that working out for ya? Umm..don't know if you've got a fucking tv in that cave of yours over there little guy, but if you get a chance, go over and turn it on. I know, little guy, it's hard, but just try for me. Turn it on, and listen to the endless, fawning and crap that's spewing out of it. No no...don't talk...just listen...
There...isn't that better? You um...you like that little guy? Hmmm? That's called reality. Yeah. Yes it is, yes it is! That's that mean ol reality that you've been hiding from, little guy.

Thanks for the response anyway. To actually answer some of your questions Workie:

1. I read Google and Yahoo news, I listen to Jim Rome, Mancow (when I can catch it), and Dennis Miller, and I use the normal TV news and daytime shows for background noise.

2. No, as much as some of you would like to believe, I am not imagining nor am I exaggerating all of JFK/Messiah crap. I hear/see it nearly every single day, not only from the media, but from the general public as well (I work in customer service). What news have YOU been listening to?

3. Not a response to a question, but seriously Newsie, Obama's got the easiest job ever now. The guy's already been proclaimed a historic figure for fucks sake. They're probably getting ready to chisel his mug onto Mnt. Rushmore as we speak! He doesn't even have to keep his nose clean at this point! The man can potentially do whatever the fuck he wants and not give a flying fuck about it because of the tremendous support and backing he has from not only the national media, but every powerful celebrity in the book. Do you seriously think that Oprah wouldn't sell her soul to make sure he always came out smelling like roses?! Tough job my ass! This cat's got it made!

But yeah...WOW duder, just....WOW...

[some1somewhere]

The problem with this question is that we have a harder understanding of who could have had a chance. The questions almost makes it out to be an good black republican verses a white bland democrat. Think about a Michael Steel verse a Hillary Clinton. If MS having a couple years in the senate. Or maybe a Ken Blackwell and a couple of years in the Ohio governors office. The 2008 race, I think that race would not have benefited a republican, but maybe benefited a democrat due to media bias turning it into a "black token" and bush stupidy. Maybe 2012 a black candidate or beyond.

It is much more complex than Obama (far left) over McCain (middle). I even think that Obama will be much more middle than he campaigned.

Anyway, the question seemed to lead to whether a black republican could win election. Not in 2008 with Bush around 20% or less. But other elections possiblity. There are many black republicans like those mentioned and Hermon Cain and others. Or other minority Republicans. I hope and pray we have gotten beyond the day of race politics and toward a day of ideas.

Two days ago I hugged a black man as one of my teachers in my short life. I live in the south. If we can not see beyond race to the heart of the individual, then we are helpless in our own stupidity. I pray for a day that we will rise above our skin to our hearts and find the right men for the job.

[Dave Pavet]

Hello!!! Obama is from the GOP, he gets trashed by the main stream liberal media from day one... Obama is a Dem and he will get trashed by Fox and talk radio from day one...All this crap (aka News/Perceptions) is about the messenger and has little to do with the message or performance!... The so-called news is essentially an infomercial for their Candidates!!! It's much more of a nightly Othello/Iago thing then actual news!

[Marquis De Sade]

This is just something that has been on mind lately. You know, every time you turn on the TV, all you hear is Obama this and Obama that. He's being hailed as the next JFK, he's being fawned over as this Christ-like, savior of our country, he's being praised left and right by the mass media. Hell, if you listen to some of the "news" programs, he's already a great president...and he hasn't even taken office yet. Personally, I find all of this to be ludicrous and absurd. It's like, he could take the office of the presidency, sit on his ass for 4 years and not do a damn thing, and STILL be hailed as one of the greatest presidents ever. It's actually offensive. Why not let his presidency speak for itself like every president before him? Anyway....

An interesting little query came to mind a while ago and I'd like opinions on it.

Just suppose...hypothetically, that Obama had run on the Republican ticket? You know, alternate universe type stuff. What if, his political philosophies were similar (with "Change" and all that), but were such that he sought out and won the Republican nomination (I suppose his competition on the Democrat side would have been Hillary)? Would he have gotten as many votes? Would he have won? If he had won, would any of the above paragraph be taking place? Would Obama STILL be thought of as the next JFK? Would all of the hollywood and television celebrities have supported and fawned over him?

Thoughts?

For me, personally, it had little to do with him being a Democrat or a Republican.

It was him, his stance on things and how he carried himself. Wouldn't have mattered, to me, what party he belonged to.

[BellaRisa]

I don't know if he'd be thought of as the next JFK by quite as many people, but I do believe that the fawning and accolades would be remarkably similar. To be frank, he'd still be a very likeable family man who seems to genuinely care about the poor and middle class (whether you believe he's sincere or not it did win over a LOT of hearts), he'd still be a Handsome Younger Black Man that people love because he's not a Crabby Old White Man (people really are tired of Bush/Cheney lookin' guys runnin' everything, I know that's awful to say but it's true). After the last 8 years people really wanted someone Nice and New, and you can't get much Nicer and Newer then a brown man with a huge smile and a cheerful demeanor. :lion: I'm not a democrat, I'm much more of a centrist, and just as I'd have voted for McCain 8 yrs ago I'd have voted for Obama now no matter which party he was with, so long as the policies I believe he'll stand by were the same.

[Capnmad]

This is just something that has been on mind lately. You know, every time you turn on the TV, all you hear is Obama this and Obama that. He's being hailed as the next JFK, he's being fawned over as this Christ-like, savior of our country, he's being praised left and right by the mass media. Hell, if you listen to some of the "news" programs, he's already a great president...and he hasn't even taken office yet. Personally, I find all of this to be ludicrous and absurd. It's like, he could take the office of the presidency, sit on his ass for 4 years and not do a damn thing, and STILL be hailed as one of the greatest presidents ever. It's actually offensive. Why not let his presidency speak for itself like every president before him? Anyway....

If he did nothing while in office, the people would catch on, and he'd be out in 4 as a "do-nothing President". The reason why people are making so many projections now is because they have nothing else to cover politically except Blagojevich and the surface inactivity/behind-the-scenes midnight regulations and legacy enhancement of lame duck Bush. Bush is boring and depressing save when dodging footwear, and Blagojevich is just disgusting insofar as he's every ugly suspicion you've had about politicians come to life. You need something positive.

For the left, that's Obama, and yes, they oversell and should wait for policy to judge rather than comment on appointments.

For the right, Blagojevich is actually the perverse positive, and any attempt at guilt by association for Obama is wonderful. A couple of weeks ago, Rush claimed that Obama's mere statements about what he'd do in office were scaring Wall Street and causing the turmoil and volatility. When folks have lost and are confused, they comfort themselves by taking potshots at their enemies.

Bottom line: News abhors a vacuum. And right now, we are in some sense without a President, and presidencies eat up a lot of a 24-hour news cycle.

Speculation fills the gap, and it's split according to bias as to what Barack Obama means for this country.



An interesting little query came to mind a while ago and I'd like opinions on it.

Just suppose...hypothetically, that Obama had run on the Republican ticket? You know, alternate universe type stuff. What if, his political philosophies were similar (with "Change" and all that), but were such that he sought out and won the Republican nomination (I suppose his competition on the Democrat side would have been Hillary)? Would he have gotten as many votes? Would he have won? If he had won, would any of the above paragraph be taking place? Would Obama STILL be thought of as the next JFK? Would all of the hollywood and television celebrities have supported and fawned over him?

Thoughts?

Barack could have still won based on his ability to motivate crowds, stay cool, and the fact that he doesn't just talk change, but he feels like change. The Republicans would be hampered by the last administration, but the more he really felt like change, the less party name would matter. A winning Republican would have to make the term "conservative" respectable again, and have a history of showing a "compassionate" conservative side, rather than a strictly corporate one.

McCain was too close to Bush and Bush's policies, and folks were tired of Bush. And no, he wouldn't have been pictured as the next JFK, but rather, as the next Reagan, since he's that party's hero.

Same difference, in the end. He'd still win, he'd still be lionized by one side and demonized by the other before reaching office, there'd be fewer celebs, but the Repubs would have pulled maybe 30% of the black vote.

[jaba]

He's being hailed as the next JFK, he's being fawned over as this Christ-like, savior of our country, he's being praised left and right by the mass media.


Gee….. then maybe this story I read wasnt just a figment of my imagination…:rolleyes:


Washington Capitol Hill News:
http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2008/08/28/media-cheers-obama-speech/


Media Cheers Obama Speech


Several members of the media were seen cheering and clapping for Barack Obama as the Illinois senator accepted the Democratic nomination Thursday.


Standing on the periphery of the football field serving as the Democratic convention floor, dozens of men and women wearing green media floor passes chanted along with the crowd.


Two members of the foreign press exchanged opportunities to take each other's pictue while wearing an Obama hat and waving a flag.


Several others nearby screamed "woo" during some of Obama's biggest applause lines.

Or the words of our liberal progressive democrat speaker of the house…



At a fundraiser for Obama in San Francisco on Monday House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Obama is :

“a leader that God has blessed us with at this time".


And according to CBS News Early Show national correspondent Tracy Smith’



“When Obama talks about "the fierce urgency of now" and warns against those counseling patience, he's dissing a return to the Clinton years, but he's also echoing JFK's Inaugural declaration.”

by the way, JFK speechwriter Ted Sorensen supports Obama and speaks regularly with the campaign's speechwriting team, so that may account for some of the Obama speech similarities.


But as NBC reporter Lee Cowan admitted on national T V, “it’s hard to remain objective” when covering Obama….







An interesting little query came to mind a while ago and I'd like opinions on it.

Just suppose...hypothetically, that Obama had run on the Republican ticket? You know, alternate universe type stuff. What if, his political philosophies were similar (with "Change" and all that), but were such that he sought out and won the Republican nomination (I suppose his competition on the Democrat side would have been Hillary)? Would he have gotten as many votes? Would he have won? If he had won, would any of the above paragraph be taking place? Would Obama STILL be thought of as the next JFK? Would all of the hollywood and television celebrities have supported and fawned over him?


a republican Obama, or any other republican would have still lost. As Bill clinton said, "it's the economy, stupid", and just as Al Gore lost, even in Gore's own home state of Tennessee and clinton's state of arkansas during the period of clinton's recession, the incumbent party generally loses in bad economic times.

[Tantrum]

This is just something that has been on mind lately. You know, every time you turn on the TV, all you hear is Obama this and Obama that. He's being hailed as the next JFK, he's being fawned over as this Christ-like, savior of our country, he's being praised left and right by the mass media. Hell, if you listen to some of the "news" programs, he's already a great president...and he hasn't even taken office yet. Personally, I find all of this to be ludicrous and absurd. It's like, he could take the office of the presidency, sit on his ass for 4 years and not do a damn thing, and STILL be hailed as one of the greatest presidents ever. It's actually offensive. Why not let his presidency speak for itself like every president before him? Anyway....

An interesting little query came to mind a while ago and I'd like opinions on it.

Just suppose...hypothetically, that Obama had run on the Republican ticket? You know, alternate universe type stuff. What if, his political philosophies were similar (with "Change" and all that), but were such that he sought out and won the Republican nomination (I suppose his competition on the Democrat side would have been Hillary)? Would he have gotten as many votes? Would he have won? If he had won, would any of the above paragraph be taking place? Would Obama STILL be thought of as the next JFK? Would all of the hollywood and television celebrities have supported and fawned over him?

Thoughts?

Actually, alchemy, I think Hillary herself is a damn good example of what might have happened to Obama if things had turned out the way you describe. She became the media's honorary Republican.

Truth be told, I always wondered how Democrats would fare if they were treated like Republicans by the media. But I NEVER, not on my wildest day, imagined it would be the CLINTONS! And it wasn't just the media. Liberal and far-left groups which had sanctified Bill and Hillary turned on them like wounded lions! Oh, that was just too good!

[WorkInProgress]

Thanks for the response anyway. To actually answer some of your questions Workie:

...

3. Not a response to a question, but seriously Newsie, Obama's got the easiest job ever now.


So first I'm Workie, then I'm Newsie?

Always a pleasure, Alkie.

(No rebuttal to offer here; I stand by my original statement, but have no illusions of persuading any of the people who think you're making sense here.)

[kis123]

Not a response to a question, but seriously Newsie, Obama's got the easiest job ever now. The guy's already been proclaimed a historic figure for fucks sake. They're probably getting ready to chisel his mug onto Mnt. Rushmore as we speak! He doesn't even have to keep his nose clean at this point! The man can potentially do whatever the fuck he wants and not give a flying fuck about it because of the tremendous support and backing he has from not only the national media, but every powerful celebrity in the book. Do you seriously think that Oprah wouldn't sell her soul to make sure he always came out smelling like roses?! Tough job my ass! This cat's got it made!

Alchemy, with all due respect.......

You couldn't seriously believe this statement could you? Obama has the hardest job in the history of American politics imo. He's not even sworn into office and he's working already. What president are you familiar with that has the same work ethic? He's the first real (Bill Clinton aside) black President of the United States. You don't think he's gonna' get press?

And this "messiah" commentary makes my stomach and rear-end hurt; people need to knock that crap off! He's a realist who hasn't even had time to savor his victory and his place in the annals of history for attempting to resolve eight years of Bushenomics. Come to think of it, he should be inducted into sainthood on that alone!

Here's a thought; how about letting Obama get into office and make some mistakes before his critics eat his lunch? How about he move into the white house first? He and Michelle haven't even picked the curtains or china yet and everyone's on his ass for a miracle! There is no miracle; only hard work and patience if we're ever going to get out of this mess. It took us decades (yes I said it) to get in this mess, it's going to take more than a few months or years to get out.

[poetic]

Let's see.....recession, rampant jobloss, inflation, an unprincipled war, an inhuman deficit, rightwing idiots downplaying him before he has even taken office.....tell me, alchemy, where is the easy part? Where is the cake walk you keep referring to? Cuz last time I checked, the Presidency was THE hardest job in the nation, seeing as how it involves running the nation.
You, like so many on the right, are too snappy to even give the man a chance to take control of the office he was elected to and implement his policies. All I hear from guys like Rush and Hannity is "Where is the change","Why aren't the tides receding and why isn't the arctic ice refreezing, the messiahs' here", and all that sarcastic nonsense. So don't tell me about jumping the gun. I mean, since you listen to news and whatnot, try listening to the crap the right is peddling out. Learn something.

[alchemy]

Let's see.....recession, rampant jobloss, inflation, an unprincipled war, an inhuman deficit, rightwing idiots downplaying him before he has even taken office.....tell me, alchemy, where is the easy part? Where is the cake walk you keep referring to? Cuz last time I checked, the Presidency was THE hardest job in the nation, seeing as how it involves running the nation.
You, like so many on the right, are too snappy to even give the man a chance to take control of the office he was elected to and implement his policies. All I hear from guys like Rush and Hannity is "Where is the change","Why aren't the tides receding and why isn't the arctic ice refreezing, the messiahs' here", and all that sarcastic nonsense. So don't tell me about jumping the gun. I mean, since you listen to news and whatnot, try listening to the crap the right is peddling out. Learn something.

First of all, you didn't answer the question I was posing on the thread. You automatically assumed that I was a Republican nutjob and went on the attack. Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

But I'll go ahead and respond I suppose...

The thing is, I'm pretty much the polar opposite of him politically. So, why would I want to wait for him to implement all of his policies before making a judgment call? I DON'T WANT him to do these things. He has made it very clear where he stands politically and what he wants to do, and so far, I haven't agreed with anything that's come flying out of his pie-hole.

Secondly, I am NOT a Bush person, nor am I a Republican...but I'm also not naive enough to actually believe that YET ANOTHER politician is going to somehow be better. If people had actually elected that idiot McCain, I'd still be bitching, but at least I wouldn't have to listen to the endless fawning and crap from the media.

Finally, the reason that those conservative hosts are probably saying that (Holy shit, I fucking HATE Hannity), is exactly why I started this thread. They're fucking tired of all the crap they're hearing in the media.

[alchemy]

Alchemy, with all due respect.......

You couldn't seriously believe this statement could you? Obama has the hardest job in the history of American politics imo. He's not even sworn into office and he's working already. What president are you familiar with that has the same work ethic? He's the first real (Bill Clinton aside) black President of the United States. You don't think he's gonna' get press?

And this "messiah" commentary makes my stomach and rear-end hurt; people need to knock that crap off! He's a realist who hasn't even had time to savor his victory and his place in the annals of history for attempting to resolve eight years of Bushenomics. Come to think of it, he should be inducted into sainthood on that alone!

Here's a thought; how about letting Obama get into office and make some mistakes before his critics eat his lunch? How about he move into the white house first? He and Michelle haven't even picked the curtains or china yet and everyone's on his ass for a miracle! There is no miracle; only hard work and patience if we're ever going to get out of this mess. It took us decades (yes I said it) to get in this mess, it's going to take more than a few months or years to get out.

I agree. I think that his presidency should be judged upon it's own merits after the fact, but this is exactly what I'm complaining about. It seems like everyone else isn't waiting to make their judgment calls, so I start to wonder why I should either.

...and yes, I DO believe that. This is not a black or white issue. You should certainly know by now that that stuff doesn't matter with me. This is a strictly political issue. Sure, the man certainly should get press given that he's the first black president, but that's not what I'm getting at. My beef is that, all to often since his election, the press and national media seem ready to declare him the next JFK rather than simply supporting him and judging him on his merits. I mean, you talk about YOUR stomach hurting, some of this crap makes me feel nauseous. The man's a politician! You know the ethics these people have! Liberal, conservative, democrat, republican...it doesn't matter. They're all corrupt.

[meangry]

The political systme as we know it is based on the dems getting about 90-95% of the african american vote.if that ever normalized then the democratic party would no longer be a nationally viable entity...

You mean like the Republican party is right now.

[kis123]

First of all, you didn't answer the question I was posing on the thread. You automatically assumed that I was a Republican nutjob and went on the attack. Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

But I'll go ahead and respond I suppose...

The thing is, I'm pretty much the polar opposite of him politically. So, why would I want to wait for him to implement all of his policies before making a judgment call? I DON'T WANT him to do these things. He has made it very clear where he stands politically and what he wants to do, and so far, I haven't agreed with anything that's come flying out of his pie-hole.

Secondly, I am NOT a Bush person, nor am I a Republican...but I'm also not naive enough to actually believe that YET ANOTHER politician is going to somehow be better. If people had actually elected that idiot McCain, I'd still be bitching, but at least I wouldn't have to listen to the endless fawning and crap from the media.

Finally, the reason that those conservative hosts are probably saying that (Holy shit, I fucking HATE Hannity), is exactly why I started this thread. They're fucking tired of all the crap they're hearing in the media.

The conservative hosts are trying to sell papers and advertising just like other media so they'll say whatever gets attention. Besides, many of them are still crying in their beer over Obama's victory. There was no doubt what the majority of Americans wanted and they did it at the voting booth.

There may be many things you don't want Obama doing, but he's going to do them anyway. Why? Because he's the president (elect) and he can. I'm sure you didn't like it when Bush sent us to war, backed the Patriot Act, or violated the Constitution and Geneva Convention with his antics. But we had to live through that crap because.........he was (is) President. I can come up with a myriad of things Reagan did that made my stomach churn. Why did he do them? Because........he was President.

That's the way it goes Alchemy; he who's in charge gets to push his agenda. My hope is what Obama does actually puts the American people first. Am I going to get my way all the time? No! He's going to do some things I'm not going to like. But he's presidet so he gets to do them.

And as far as this media blizzard you're talking about; honestly I don't hear much at all. If you look back prior to election day, many if not most of his praise-singers were probably his biggest critics. He's the media darling of the moment; just wait until he makes a mistake.........trust me on this!

[kis123]

I agree. I think that his presidency should be judged upon it's own merits after the fact, but this is exactly what I'm complaining about. It seems like everyone else isn't waiting to make their judgment calls, so I start to wonder why I should either.

...and yes, I DO believe that. This is not a black or white issue. You should certainly know by now that that stuff doesn't matter with me. This is a strictly political issue. Sure, the man certainly should get press given that he's the first black president, but that's not what I'm getting at. My beef is that, all to often since his election, the press and national media seem ready to declare him the next JFK rather than simply supporting him and judging him on his merits. I mean, you talk about YOUR stomach hurting, some of this crap makes me feel nauseous. The man's a politician! You know the ethics these people have! Liberal, conservative, democrat, republican...it doesn't matter. They're all corrupt.

First off, I'm definitely NOT trying to make this a race issue. Unfortunately, the media has clenched its teeth and hasn't let go. I just let them hiss and spit because they have the Constitutional right to do so........then I change the channel.

Obama has rolled up his sleeves and gotten to work; sometimes I feel the media hype (or messiah crap) is just a way of overinflating a human being. When he makes a mistake (notice I said "when"), the media will use the same energy to bury him. They've done it with other presidents, no one has gone unscaved and Obama will get worse from them. It sells papers and advertising alchemy, nothing more.

This is the same media that calls famous young women fat, then blasts them when they starve themselves to some sick form of perfection. If you're not looking like a coat rack with legs, you're overweight. But if you starve yourself until I can see your collar bone from 100 yards, "ooooh, look at her!


When it comes to the media, it's always damned if you do or don't. Should the hype become too much for you.....change the channel. Then wait until he makes a mistake and see the pendulum swing.

[venray]

There may be many things you don't want Obama doing, but he's going to do them anyway. Why? Because he's the president (elect) and he can. !

unfortunately this is not true....Obama will do what Congress lets him...If he pisses off his own base of support he will accomplish very little....He has already begun to "lose" them by changing his position a little more each day on key isuses he campainged on...

if you think you will see national healthcare...think again......if you think you will see a reduction in taxes for those who could use it....dont hold your breath....

As for Iraq, the stage is already set for the redeployment of troops to Afghanistan and the withdrawal of most of the ground troops by 2011....

if you think Obama will change that, you havent been listening lately...

And no...it isnt work ethic that has him doing his thing right now...it is the fact that he has a big case of be careful what you wish for..he got his wish and has a long way to go to get anything acccomplished...

Time will tell....hopefully he will be able to help kickstart the ecconomy, but I fear that is at last 2 years down the road before we see results...

To answer your Question Alchemy...Obama would have lost as a republican especially if Hillary was running against him. He beat her within his own party, but would never have defeated her if he had run as a republican...

He is not JFK...he is not "the one"...he is not "God's gift"..he is a man who will attempt to do the best he can to lead us....he will have some success and some failure.....we will have to wait and see which part is greater and hope for success, but unless congress changes it aint gonna happen...and Obama hasnt shown much in the way of encouraging change with his cabinet nominations thus far....same good ol boys and girls...many that served under slick Willy himself...

[kis123]

unfortunately this is not true....Obama will do what Congress lets him...If he pisses off his own base of support he will accomplish very little....He has already begun to "lose" them by changing his position a little more each day on key isuses he campainged on...

if you think you will see national healthcare...think again......if you think you will see a reduction in taxes for those who could use it....dont hold your breath....

As for Iraq, the stage is already set for the redeployment of troops to Afghanistan and the withdrawal of most of the ground troops by 2011....

if you think Obama will change that, you havent been listening lately...

And no...it isnt work ethic that has him doing his thing right now...it is the fact that he has a big case of be careful what you wish for..he got his wish and has a long way to go to get anything acccomplished...

Time will tell....hopefully he will be able to help kickstart the ecconomy, but I fear that is at last 2 years down the road before we see results...

To answer your Question Alchemy...Obama would have lost as a republican especialy if hillary was running against him. He beat her within his own party, but would never have defeated her if he had run as a republican...

He is not JFK...he is not "the one"...he is not "God's gift"..he is a man who will attempt to do the best he can to lead us....he will have some success and some failure.....we will have to wait and see which part is greater and hope for success, but unless congresschanges it aint gonna happen...and Obama hasnt shown much in the way of encouraging change with his cabinet nominations thus far....same good ol boys and girls...many that served under slick Willy himself...

Ray, you're old enough to know better! Maybe I could understand this if it came from one of the younger set, but you.......you know how politics has and will always work.

Whan a president wants something, he'll work the room until there are enough votes to pass. If he doesn't get his way......he does have the right to veto. He could get overridden in the process, but I'd feel sorry for those who supported it when they need something done. That's how every other president has handled things and Obama will have the same. He'll be more scrutinized and people will hang on his every word looking for flaws they can bury him with in the future, but he'll do what the others have done nonetheless.

Every man who becomes president gets what they wished for, so what's that comment about Ray? Could it be some of you are still bellyaching over the man's historic win? Folks need to let it go; he's the president elect who has had to roll his sleeves up weeks before inauguration because his predescessor jacked this nation up! Bush pisses and craps on the torch then passes it to Obama with a "good luck and happy landings"-come on people, this is starting to get silly!

But Obama is just a man; he doesn't leap tall buildings in a single bound, nor does he have the cure for all of society's ills in his pocket. He's going to try some things; some will work, some will fail. And say what you want about "slick Willy"; the economy was in a helluva lot better shape when he finished than when he started.

[WorkInProgress]

The media, Alchemy, have not been claiming to know anything at all about what he's going to be or do. The media have simply been following his preliminary actions and analyzing what challenges he's going to be up against. They've also given plenty of airplay to the fact that Obama's most enthusiastic supporters are unhappy with some of his choices for cabinet and other posts. You exaggerate so much, I'm beginning to think you fall asleep with the TV on and start dreaming the programs.

[WorkInProgress]

But one thing you don't have to worry about, Alchemy:

Nobody is going to curcify you.

[jj82277]

You mean like the Republican party is right now.

hey man... Mccain is purple...

[Strider]

To answer your question, I don't think he'd have gotten the same level of support from the Hollywood glitterati, but generally speaking the reactions would probably be pretty similar. Personal charisma of that sort doesn't know party lines. And really, there's reasons that so many Republicans felt comfortable voting for Obama. The man's very, very good at appearing as all things to all people (good enough that it seems pretty clear that's a conscious strategy on his part; he's happy to let people believe what they want to believe about him), but his policy proposals have always been cautious and technocratic. I think that's part of why people like me felt comfortable voting for him.

[WorkInProgress]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081218/ap_on_go_pr_wh/inauguration_minister

Here you go--a news story not unusual at all of late. Obama is so determined to be harmless to his critics on the right that he's causing consternation among his most enthusiastic supporters. And the MSM are covering these tensions. So they're not just gushing. They're analyzing. And I happen to agree that Obama is going overboard with the gestures to the right. I voted for him as a liberal, and now I'm one of those liberals wishing that Obama would act a little more like a liberal. But the point is, deny it if you like, the media are giving fair and balanced coverage to the transition.

[Strider]

I voted for him as a liberal, and now I'm one of those liberals wishing that Obama would act a little more like a liberal.

But he's not, he's a centrist, and he's really never claimed to be anything but. I guess I can understand why some might be disappointed by his actions, but the fact of the matter is they should have listened to him a bit more carefully.

[Bugman]

hey man... Mccain is purple...

Can someone translate?I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.:confused:

[Strider]

Can someone translate?I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.:confused:

It means movement conservatives don't view him as one of their own.

[Bugman]

Ok,thanks.I have never heard that term before.I'm done posting here,i'll just sit back and watch the fun.:)

[WorkInProgress]

But he's not, he's a centrist, and he's really never claimed to be anything but. I guess I can understand why some might be disappointed by his actions, but the fact of the matter is they should have listened to him a bit more carefully.

Oh sure, but when McCain accused him of being the most liberal Senator in history, I was saying, yes, he's our man. People looking for a liberal are going to have to live with the fact that he's a centrist. And yet my big point still stands: the media and Obama's supporters all understand that Obama is a human being with strengths and weaknesses. Nobody has him confused with a superhero, especially not in the media.

[alchemy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081218/ap_on_go_pr_wh/inauguration_minister

Here you go--a news story not unusual at all of late. Obama is so determined to be harmless to his critics on the right that he's causing consternation among his most enthusiastic supporters. And the MSM are covering these tensions. So they're not just gushing. They're analyzing. And I happen to agree that Obama is going overboard with the gestures to the right. I voted for him as a liberal, and now I'm one of those liberals wishing that Obama would act a little more like a liberal. But the point is, deny it if you like, the media are giving fair and balanced coverage to the transition.

Thou doth protest to much.

Sure, there's always going to be exceptions. Whether you accept it as reality or not makes little difference to me, but the fact of the matter is that the media are NOT giving fair and balanced coverage.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/personoftheyear/article/0,31682,1861543_1865068_1867013,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/personoftheyear/article/0,31682,1861543_1865068_1867014,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/2008/six_degrees/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/12/MN8D11MGUQ.DTL&tsp=1

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/us/politics/04obama.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1229662618-/HCW0ly6vG4x7/aKQWGPdw

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/17/us/politics/17early.html?ref=politics

[jaba]

But he's not, he's a centrist, and he's really never claimed to be anything but. I guess I can understand why some might be disappointed by his actions, but the fact of the matter is they should have listened to him a bit more carefully.

If you are asserting that Obama CAMPAIGNED as a centrist in order to secure the presidency, then I agree with you. But Obama is an unabashed liberal who will talk centrist or even conservative when he deems it politically expedient (as in his presidential campaign advocacy of the death penalty for non killers such as child abusers)

Per CBS News, “Obama was known in the Illinois Capitol as a consistently liberal senator who reflected the views of voters in his Chicago district.”

Obama’s own hometown Chicago Tribune acknowledged Obamas run from the left during the presidential campaign and saw “ his move toward the center as an effort to attract independent and undecided voters.”

Usa Today said “Obama’s apparent move away from the left has left some supporters feeling neglected”

The liberal group Americans for Democratic Action gives Obama a 95 percent approval rating, which was the same as Kerry and Sen. Barbara Boxer.

Obama was one of only 8 other liberal democrats who voted against enhanced penalties for gang criminals who were convicted of murder in furtherance of gang objectives, angering other democrats including the democrat who sponsored the legislation.


Obama had a 100 percent rating from the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council for his support of abortion rights, and Obama voted against every Illinois version of proposed born alive legislation, and used as his excuse that the state bill was different from a federal bill that he SAYS he would have supported, but Fact.check.org revealed that both bills contained identical language at the time Obama opposed the state version.

In 1998 according to the Hill, a Washington newspaper, Obama was one of only three Illinois state senators to vote against a proposal making it a criminal offense for convicts on probation or on bail to have contact with a street gang.


And Per fact check. org, Obama lied when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois.

Obama has waffled back and forth on his position on the decriminalization of Marijuana, depending on which interest group he is talking to.

Obama is a liberal who moved to the center to get elected, and the practical reality of the current economic situation is probably going to force him to remain centrist, whether he wants to or not, in my opinion.

Recent edit: even Obama himself admits it....



While running for Congress against Chicago liberal Icon Bobby Rush in late 1999 and early 2000, at a November 1999 candidate forum, the Hyde Park Herald newspaper reported that "there was little to distinguish" the candidates, who "struggled to differentiate themselves" ideologically.

Acknowledged Obama, "We're all on the liberal wing of the Democratic party."

The common political ideology of the candidates was a theme in Herald newspaper coverage of Obama and Bobby Rush throughout the race.


.

[kyle]

Liberal, conservative, blah blah..

The guy is a politician. Expect him to act like any other politician. On most policies he'll probably be a lot like Bush.

[MrMacphisto]

The political systme as we know it is based on the dems getting about 90-95% of the african american vote.if that ever normalized then the democratic party would no longer be a nationally viable entity...

Uh... no... The message should be clear after this election. It was the Republican party that lost some relevance after this election. You lost 8 (and probably 9) Senate seats, you lost the presidency, and the Democratic majority in the House is stronger than before.

The point is, the general public saw the Republicans as out of touch. While it is true that Obama got a massive share of the black vote, there are plenty of nonblack Democrats that won in heavily white areas that were once considered heavily Republican as well.

To chalk up Obama's victory as being due to him being black or getting the black vote is bordering on racism, which is extremely odd coming from a black person to begin with.

Obama won mostly because moderates were sick of the neocon norm that was promoted for the last 8 years. The pendulum has swung slightly leftward now.

If the Republicans hope to gain some ground in the legislature, they'll need to move as far as they can from neoconservatism and towards old-school Libertarian conservatism. Otherwise, the Democrats will hold onto the presidency and both houses at least until 2012.

[jaba]

Uh... no... The message should be clear after this election. It was the Republican party that lost some relevance after this election. You lost 8 (and probably 9) Senate seats, you lost the presidency, and the Democratic majority in the House is stronger than before.

The point is, the general public saw the Republicans as out of touch. While it is true that Obama got a massive share of the black vote, there are plenty of nonblack Democrats that won in heavily white areas that were once considered heavily Republican as well.

To chalk up Obama's victory as being due to him being black or getting the black vote is bordering on racism, which is extremely odd coming from a black person to begin with.

Obama won mostly because moderates were sick of the neocon norm that was promoted for the last 8 years. The pendulum has swung slightly leftward now.

If the Republicans hope to gain some ground in the legislature, they'll need to move as far as they can from neoconservatism and towards old-school Libertarian conservatism. Otherwise, the Democrats will hold onto the presidency and both houses at least until 2012.

Mr Mac, you had me in much agreement with your assessment until you started wading into that "neo con" swamp....

I dont know if you have heard this, but there are some who declare that republicans lost due to an abandonment of what is commonly described as "neo con" values....the word "neo con" around here is merely a liberal pejorative meaning a conservative with extra sprinkles of meanness and evil, so I rarely put much weight in the term when used by our folks around here on our forum.

But if your description of a "neo con" is a lavish spending of tax money president bush, who advocates with mc cain and democrats like Obama for the legalization and attendant health and social service care costs of as many as 25 to 30 million presently illegal immigrants in this country, and advocates for as many tax paid cash bailouts and government subsidies as he can count, then I take issue with your interpretation of the term.....Richard Cohen of the washington post makes a cogent case for his belief that bush and his administrative actions make him more aptly described as a "neo liberal".......

but I agree with your assessments in some other points in your post.

[jj82277]

Uh... no... The message should be clear after this election. It was the Republican party that lost some relevance after this election. You lost 8 (and probably 9) Senate seats, you lost the presidency, and the Democratic majority in the House is stronger than before.

The point is, the general public saw the Republicans as out of touch. While it is true that Obama got a massive share of the black vote, there are plenty of nonblack Democrats that won in heavily white areas that were once considered heavily Republican as well.

To chalk up Obama's victory as being due to him being black or getting the black vote is bordering on racism, which is extremely odd coming from a black person to begin with.

Obama won mostly because moderates were sick of the neocon norm that was promoted for the last 8 years. The pendulum has swung slightly leftward now.

If the Republicans hope to gain some ground in the legislature, they'll need to move as far as they can from neoconservatism and towards old-school Libertarian conservatism. Otherwise, the Democrats will hold onto the presidency and both houses at least until 2012.

1.) JOHN MCCAIN WAS A MODERATE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

2.) i am not saying that barrack obama won because he was black. i am saying that the national democratic party as a whole be it him clinton kerry etc. is predicated on the seduction of black people into the idea of institutional poverty and over reliance on welfare and social programs.

there is no set of issues by which any demographic including african americans would EVER split 95-5. their support was key in CALIFORNIA of all places to ban gay marriage... that is not based on social security, in most barbershops i go into no one knows (as most people of all races) don't know what neo-conservatism is. most people of color do believe in two things, 1.) white people are inherently smarter and more capable of earning income than they are. 2.) that its the governments responsibility to redistribute income.

that's what CARES ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE really means. there is no discussion of this in the media and that is why i have little respect for the electoral process as a whole. this isn;t about honesty this is about salsemanship.

that's how a president elect gets away with talking about redistibutive change and white folks greed running a world in need. in my opinion it is the wrong direction of the next phase of civil rights and will further cement blacks as a permanent underclass but it would take far too long for me to detail why...

[MrMacphisto]

Mr Mac, you had me in much agreement with your assessment until you started wading into that "neo con" swamp....

I dont know if you have heard this, but there are some who declare that republicans lost due to an abandonment of what is commonly described as "neo con" values....the word "neo con" around here is merely a liberal pejorative meaning a conservative with extra sprinkles of meanness and evil, so I rarely put much weight in the term when used by our folks around here on our forum.

But if your description of a "neo con" is a lavish spending of tax money president bush, who advocates with mc cain and democrats like Obama for the legalization and attendant health and social service care costs of as many as 25 to 30 million presently illegal immigrants in this country, and advocates for as many tax paid cash bailouts and government subsidies as he can count, then I take issue with your interpretation of the term.....Richard Cohen of the washington post makes a cogent case for his belief that bush and his administrative actions make him more aptly described as a "neo liberal".......

but I agree with your assessments in some other points in your post.

I can see that. Maybe I was misusing the term....

Hmm... Well, perhaps, you'd agree with the idea that the Republicans lost a lot of influence because they were following suit with Bush on most things?

Whatever the case, I think we can agree that true smaller government principles are what the GOP needs to return to.

[MrMacphisto]

1.) JOHN MCCAIN WAS A MODERATE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. .

...not in a good way. He was moderate in that he contradicted a lot of small government principles the same way that Bush has. By having a platform so similar to Bush, he cooked his own goose.

2.) i am not saying that barrack obama won because he was black. i am saying that the national democratic party as a whole be it him clinton kerry etc. is predicated on the seduction of black people into the idea of institutional poverty and over reliance on welfare and social programs.

This may surprise you, but I somewhat agree. I think much of the War on Poverty was well-intentioned, but in practice, it helped dissolve much of the traditional family structure in the black community.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, without the black vote, they'd be done for (since blacks are still a small part of the population relatively speaking), but yes, the DNC does take blacks for granted. It's kind of like how the GOP automatically assumes it can get the Religious Right vote with concessions on the issues of abortion and gay marriage.

there is no set of issues by which any demographic including african americans would EVER split 95-5. their support was key in CALIFORNIA of all places to ban gay marriage... that is not based on social security, in most barbershops i go into no one knows (as most people of all races) don't know what neo-conservatism is. most people of color do believe in two things, 1.) white people are inherently smarter and more capable of earning income than they are. 2.) that its the governments responsibility to redistribute income.

that's what CARES ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE really means. there is no discussion of this in the media and that is why i have little respect for the electoral process as a whole. this isn;t about honesty this is about salsemanship.

that's how a president elect gets away with talking about redistibutive change and white folks greed running a world in need. in my opinion it is the wrong direction of the next phase of civil rights and will further cement blacks as a permanent underclass but it would take far too long for me to detail why...

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with you. The main reason I supported Obama was just because of the sheer incompetence of the GOP over the last few years. I figure just about anything was better than keeping another Bush-like guy in there.

So, believe it or not, I disagree with Obama on a lot of things, and I can see how the Democrats manipulate certain things, just like the Republicans do.

Probably the best example of the Democratic machine corrupting things is the way that a lot of Illinois politics work (see Rod Blagojevich).

So, you can imagine how uneasy I feel at having voted for a Democrat from Illinois for president.

[jaba]

I can see that. Maybe I was misusing the term....

Hmm... Well, perhaps, you'd agree with the idea that the Republicans lost a lot of influence because they were following suit with Bush on most things?

I do agree, Mac..... and that has been a long held conservative complaint....you cant point to tax and spend democrat malfeasance when bush is spending like a drunken sailor himself....and i'm not talking about defense related expenditures.



Whatever the case, I think we can agree that true smaller government principles are what the GOP needs to return to.

We do agree... I have far less confidence in either party adhering to those principles....but at least Obama flat out tells you he's gonna raises taxes and spend a trillion dollars in entitlements, so it's not like there will be a violation of the disclosure clause....

[WorkInProgress]

*hoping nobody's curcified Alchemy yet*