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View Full Version : Establish a voluntary 3rd party vetting service



Kalba
02-06-2009, 12:05 PM
Short version, in the chatroom, there are way too many posers. And while making vetting a mandatory activity isn't the way to go. Those who want to vett themselves and be able to authenticate who they are should have a choice to do so. Please consider the basic idea. One chatroom participant has said the girls have basically done this. If so, how's about doing the same for all of those interested so we don't have to keep playing these stupid games.

Kalba

Myriads
02-06-2009, 04:01 PM
This is an idea that has been suggested a few times over the years.

Sadly there is no way I'm going to try and enforce a 'prove your gender' requirement for use of the chat room. There are a lot of reasons.

This would mean that anyone who wanted to use the room would need to open a voice/video chat with some person before they would be allowed to enter the room.

That means there would NEED to be a person on duty 24/7 to do this.

I can't provide 24/7 moderation coverage to the room for the princely pay of $0 per hour that we are able to offer. So I have a feeling I'll have a hard time getting a pass monitor to be available for al times. So I guess the room has to shut down when I don't have a person there to do the job. Can't let un-vetted people in can we?

This would tend to limit the use of the room very significantly.

Seeing as we have a chat room to allow folks to meet and interact, and pay a good deal for that room every year, closing it for significant periods during a week seems sort of silly to me.

We WANT our room to be used and enjoyed. And not be a pain in the hinder to enter.

We are not the gender police. There is no realistic way to screen people on the web for gender without creating a system that is so limiting to new entries that it makes it pointless. Many users are not very secure even being on the site. They are not comfortable with the fact they have a fetish, and are shy about interacting at all. So to have to not only ask permission, but SHOW yourself to a pass monitor would mean many would never use the room. That's defeating the reason we have a room.

Myriads

Kalba
02-06-2009, 04:08 PM
it's not either do nothing or be a dictator. for people want to go through a TMF vetting process, they can verify their gender and be done with it. I guess I don't buy your characterization. So, it's life as usual in the chatroom. men posing as women with no oversight. pathetic.


Kalba

The Fallen Angel
02-06-2009, 04:13 PM
it's not either do nothing or be a dictator. for people want to go through a TMF vetting process, they can verify their gender and be done with it. I guess I don't buy your characterization. So, it's life as usual in the chatroom. men posing as women with no oversight. pathetic.


Kalba

ive been in the chat and find this to be the case as well. But as Myraids stated that would inquire to much work from moderators who already do a lot and arent paid for it. I mean you dont have to go into the chat, there are billions of sites on the net and almost as many chat rooms, so there is an easy fix to this dont go in it and find a new chat

Kalba
02-06-2009, 04:17 PM
you aren't trying to police the frauds, just establish the vetted. Myriads is knocking down strawmen. This is doable. There simply isn't the will to do it. Formally anyway. Informally, chat members do it daily. It would just be better to have something more established.

chicago
02-06-2009, 05:35 PM
So who's going to start going through the tens of thousands of members to see who's lying and who's not?

The TMF is free, paid for by other people out of their own pockets and the chatroom is pretty expensive too. Dealing with losing your erection a couple times as you find out you're cybering with a guy, is unfortunately something you're going to have to deal with while all these awesome things are provided to you free of charge.

-Hari-
02-06-2009, 06:15 PM
As A chat moderator its always been my view that people can be who they want in the chatroom.

If people want to be a nine tailed fox I dont mind, if men feel as tho they would like to pretend to be a woman then I dont see a problem there either, for many its a fantasy land to be who you wanna be.

Only way it ever gets to be a problem is if a closeness is built between two members and one turns out not to be who they say and the other becomes upset, but this can happen in all sorts of other ways, age, looks, location, promises.

When it comes to it, the person pretending will no doubt eventually see that they will never be able to move from theyre online identity to theyre real life one if they arnt being themselves online. And if theyre ok with that and wish to remain online only then it will never cause any real problems if people just leave them alone and let them do theyre thing.

To justify checking one person we would have to check them all, and not only is there not the resources to do so, as you say... from me at least, the will isnt there either, This issue doesnt cause a real problem.

If you feel someones faking then you dont need to communicate with them, maybe even go as far as putting them on ignore if you like.

In my mind no one is obliged to prove anything to anyone in the chatroom as long as they are not actively causeing issues for other members, everyone uses it for different reasons, some for fantasy roleplay acting as someone they are not, to fulfill theyre fantasies, I dont see it fair dissallow them to do that.

Ive always had more trouble from those who wish to "out" those who they assume are faking and then pester them and make theyre time in the room as difficult as possible.

In conclusion, "Ignorance is bliss"

LD_Tickler
02-06-2009, 06:15 PM
So, it's life as usual in the chatroom. men posing as women with no oversight. pathetic.

That's pretty well the standard on the internet.


Dealing with losing your erection a couple times as you find out you're cybering with a guy, is unfortunately something you're going to have to deal with

rofl


Jokes aside, I think this is a really interesting idea, I've never heard it brought up before. While I stand by any decision Myriads makes, I'd be interested to hear a bit more from Kalba on specifically what mechanism he would suggest to do this.

TMF Jeff
02-06-2009, 07:06 PM
I can understand caring about the gender of the person you're flirting with. But I think you're not really seeing how big a deal this would end up being.

I think this sounds like a pretty big logistical undertaking, even without going to the extreme that Myriads was suggesting.

Even just creating a database of people known to be the gender they claim, would be a lot of work. I know that I don't want to take dozens of calls from people just to prove they're who they say they are. And I don't really want to ask anyone else to do that.

And then we have to set up some kind of way to access that information. Someone either has to be on deck to answer the question "Is this person really a girl?" or else we have to... what, make it publicly available? Isn't that a little demeaning, having a list of girls who have had to prove their gender?

Also that seems to involve someone giving someone else their phone number, either the chatter or the verifier, and that's a lot of information to give away along with your gender.

And all of it for what exactly? My advice would be 1) don't do anything in the chat room with someone if you would be freaked out by their being a guy instead of a girl, unless you've talked to them. And 2) if they want to do that kind of stuff but won't talk to you, see rule 1.

Or maybe I'm wrong. I'm open to hearing where I misunderstood, or am not seeing something...

Mitchell
02-06-2009, 07:29 PM
I wanted to chime in here. Having been a member of this forum for over six years, the whole "gender" thing is something I've had discussions about with many people over the years.

I used to speak to many new girls in the chatroom, until keeping a much lower profile in recent years. I used to be friendly with two forum members, whom I of course will not name, who would pc me every time I started talking to a new member whose profile said female, and these two people would say to me: "Mitch, Susan K (A fictional name of course) is a guy". This would tick me off to no end. While these people might have thought they were being helpful, it didn't do me, or anyone else, any good, if I was trying to get to know someone, and these people pced me frequently, saying all this. Neither of these people had any proof that Susan K was or wasnt a guy, and they would only serve to do two things. One, upset me if I was trying to talk to someone, and two, unfairly smear Susan K, who might well have just been a new girl, trying to talk to and get to know a new guy.

I'm not naive. I'm sure that there are members on here, whose profiles say "Female", who are actually guys, coming on here to get their kicks, and fuck with people's heads. On the other hand, I'm sure there are far more people, who visit TMF, for the purpose of being legitimate. I try not to concern myself with the first kind of person. I completely understand Myriads and Jeff's positions, about neither them, nor the forum, having the resources to prove who and who isn't definitively a guy or girl. My advice to you would be this: Read profiles, take TMF for what it is, a place for people with the common interest of tickling to meet and discuss, and, if you befriend someone for a while, at that point, ask them to do webcam, send you a picture, or pictures, or call you on the phone. It would be extremely unwise, and would not make you many or any friends, if you go around saying to every girl you talk to "Hi, even though you dont know me, I want you to get on cam, or call me, so I can prove you're a girl". Use discretion. My feeling is, that anyone who is legitimate, will not mind.

I hope this helps.

Mitch

Jorschach
02-06-2009, 09:15 PM
Short version, in the chatroom, there are way too many posers. And while making vetting a mandatory activity isn't the way to go. Those who want to vett themselves and be able to authenticate who they are should have a choice to do so. Please consider the basic idea. One chatroom participant has said the girls have basically done this. If so, how's about doing the same for all of those interested so we don't have to keep playing these stupid games.

Kalba

You could do all this yourself. I mean, if one wants to wank it to the real thing. No need for the whole entire chatroom and those who enter and leave on whim to be having to do that.

I'm really a man, and I've gotten all sorts of pussy.

..Glamorous..
02-06-2009, 09:21 PM
You could do all this yourself. I mean, if one wants to wank it to the real thing. No need for the whole entire chatroom and those who enter and leave on whim to be having to do that.

I'm really a man, and I've gotten all sorts of pussy.

Yes, now take my picture out of your sig!



Srsly, This is why I don't use it. But you pretty much just have to take someone's word for it. I think it's a little silly for everyone to have to verify.

Jorschach
02-06-2009, 09:30 PM
Yes, now take my picture out of your sig!

See?

Yeah, I tapped it.

Kalba
02-06-2009, 09:53 PM
requires either constant surveillance or some long telephone book research. You simply establish a 3rd party (mod, vetted member, whatever) who can verify someone who requests to be vetted, voluntarily and maintain a list of TMF members who have made the request and gone through the vetting process. If someone isn't vetted, that's fine. It remains up to the chatroom participant if they want to risk it or not. But at least it gives a way for good faith participants to establish themselves and remove all doubt. As I said above though, doesn't sound like there is the will, though I believe there is a way.

Kalba
02-06-2009, 09:57 PM
So who's going to start going through the tens of thousands of members to see who's lying and who's not?

The TMF is free, paid for by other people out of their own pockets and the chatroom is pretty expensive too. Dealing with losing your erection a couple times as you find out you're cybering with a guy, is unfortunately something you're going to have to deal with while all these awesome things are provided to you free of charge.

Second, as I've said, don't buy the going through the telephone book. We're talking about maintaining a list of folks who voluntarily get vetted, aren't but a small # of folks from TMF's overall membership who frequent the chatroom anyway. Should be pretty easy to seperate the posers from the real deal if we had the collective will to do it. YMMV.

Kalba.

..Glamorous..
02-06-2009, 09:58 PM
requires either constant surveillance or some long telephone book research. You simply establish a 3rd party (mod, vetted member, whatever) who can verify someone who requests to be vetted, voluntarily and maintain a list of TMF members who have made the request and gone through the vetting process. If someone isn't vetted, that's fine. It remains up to the chatroom participant if they want to risk it or not. But at least it gives a way for good faith participants to establish themselves and remove all doubt. As I said above though, doesn't sound like there is the will, though I believe there is a way.

There may be a way, no one said there wasn't. This is a free site, That's something that is most likely going to require more money out of someone's pockets. If you are more than willing to pay then by all means I suggest you keep pushing, However I think the whole thing is a little silly. Why is it that big of a deal?

Jorschach
02-07-2009, 01:05 AM
requires either constant surveillance or some long telephone book research. You simply establish a 3rd party (mod, vetted member, whatever) who can verify someone who requests to be vetted, voluntarily and maintain a list of TMF members who have made the request and gone through the vetting process. If someone isn't vetted, that's fine. It remains up to the chatroom participant if they want to risk it or not. But at least it gives a way for good faith participants to establish themselves and remove all doubt. As I said above though, doesn't sound like there is the will, though I believe there is a way.

What's your angle? What are you exactly trying to achieve with the outcome of this?

C.K. Storyteller
02-07-2009, 03:46 AM
I've been going to the chatroom for a couple years now, and I think that over time, you get a sense of who's legit and who is not.

If it's someone who does TMF Radio or has been to gatherings (Annie, Crystal, Bright), they're obviously who they claim to be.

If it's someone who has been in contact with other chatters who vouch for them, that's a good sign too.

Anyone else, its an "at your own risk" situation.

---

There would be a way to do what you're asking, kalba, but in my opinion, it'd be no fun whatsoever.

Would I need to be vetted, just to prove I am who I say I am? How many of us go about under a nickname? Does that mean we are fraudulent?

Seems to be more trouble than its worth, to me.

chicago
02-07-2009, 03:20 PM
Ok, so unless this designated "mod" who's job it is to vouch for people has met the person that wants to be vetted (someone who would only care about being vetted if no one had any idea who they were), how would they know they aren't lying?

If I hadn't been to 3 NESTs, met 100 or so people from here, did TMF Radio shows, didn't post my picture, and wanted to be vetted, I could say I was a dude, but how would I prove it?

This would require either 1. a phone call or 2. webcam.

How else would one be vetted?

Kalba
02-08-2009, 09:24 PM
a phone call and a webcam. I think there are many ways to vett or verify someone's gender, which seems to be the main consideration, all of which have the inherent risk of being bypassed. A poser could get a friend of the opposite gender to pick up the phone and slip in front of a webcam. I would think starting with a list of people we know and can verify and build from there. If the list is voluntary then it's up to the person to decide if they want to go through the vetting process. You don't mandate anything. And it remains the right of any chatroom goer to take whatever risks they are taking now. I just don't see the down side.

Kalba

DownUnder
02-08-2009, 09:39 PM
I don't use the chatroom here, not because of the whole dude/chick issue, but I just don't have the time.

Sure, I don't see the harm in the vetting process, but:
1. Who is going to oversee it? As stated in this thread, this is a free forum, folks give up their time voluntarily. If the forum concensus demands the institution of this system, then I'm sure some folks here will be happy to lend their time; however if even Jeff does not support the system, who is going to do it?

2. What really is the point of the vetting process? Sure, cybering with a guy who claims to be a girl is an awful thing. But that's part and parcel of internet life. Not to say it is acceptable, but I fail to see why the TMF has a special obligation, on top and above other adult websites, to institute such a system.

chicago
02-09-2009, 01:22 PM
Ok, so let say we start this list on a voluntary basis. Everytime someone volunteers we have to ask around if anyone knows for sure if they are who they say they are.

If I'm a dude, pretending to be a girl and I want to to be vetted as a chick, all I have to do is volunteer for the list, then make another account to act as the person vetting for me.

Therefore, the list is useless.

Any other ideas?

Goodieluver
02-09-2009, 02:04 PM
Its really not hard for someone to pose as male or female, even if they are proven to be the other. If i was really desperate to prove i was a woman, i could get a random friend to supply pertinent info

Chat is fine the way it is, Get ID and proof of billing address if you want proof they are female or not

Kalba
02-09-2009, 09:10 PM
Several people have made good points as to why this isn't really workable, or needed. Since you seem determined to keep arguing for it (and, frankly, your reasons for keeping it up escape me):

A) Why don't you list these "many ways to vett or verify someone's gender" that don't require a phone call or webcam?

B) Since you admit that they can all be bypassed, then why should any of them be implemented? If people can still misrepresent their identities to the "vetter", it's all an exercise in pointlessness.

I'm not sure why you insist on this point after people have presented good reasons it wouldn't work out. I usually don't toss out the word "trolling", but I'm starting to wonder if that's what we have here.

And I think it's a pretty sad day when we can't have a conversation without namecalling and labeling. Sure, they have offered reason. And I disagree. Agree to disagree. You can do that without ad hominems. As I said earlier. There are ways to do it (btw, didn't all would be by passed, just that this risk is inherent,show me a vetting system that isn't, ask Tom Daschle), just not the will. So, we continue to do nothing. ok.

Kalba

Kalba
02-09-2009, 09:16 PM
Ok, so let say we start this list on a voluntary basis. Everytime someone volunteers we have to ask around if anyone knows for sure if they are who they say they are.

If I'm a dude, pretending to be a girl and I want to to be vetted as a chick, all I have to do is volunteer for the list, then make another account to act as the person vetting for me.

Therefore, the list is useless.

Any other ideas?

so reasoning from a false premise is just knocking down another strawman. Obviously people vetting would have to be credible/vetted themselves. And as so many have pointed out, most established people are well known. So, a list isn't useless, only a strawman list that noone would use is useless. But one does have the feeling that's where we are ending up, aren't we.

Think about it, we switch to registered members only to improve the quality of the chatroom experience, but then to nothing to enforce the registration/chatroom participation process. Sort of makes the whole exercise an experience of futility, doesn't it.

Kalba

Kalba
02-09-2009, 09:19 PM
Its really not hard for someone to pose as male or female, even if they are proven to be the other. If i was really desperate to prove i was a woman, i could get a random friend to supply pertinent info

Chat is fine the way it is, Get ID and proof of billing address if you want proof they are female or not

Why start trying to prove a negative? Many chatroom participants have been to NESTs, a gathering or have been with people who have. The community itself is the best way of vetting. And several posters have already pointed out that the legitimate are pretty well known. All I'm saying is why make it a secret or confined to those in the know. Makes no sense to me.

Kalba

TMF Jeff
02-09-2009, 09:44 PM
So far you've made a lot of generalizations I think, about how it could be done. But I think you haven't really addressed my points about what it would actually be like to try to do this. So let me ask you this... if this was your forum, and your responsibility, what EXACTLY would you do if you were going to set up a verification system?

Kalba
02-09-2009, 10:03 PM
So far you've made a lot of generalizations I think, about how it could be done. But I think you haven't really addressed my points about what it would actually be like to try to do this. So let me ask you this... if this was your forum, and your responsibility, what EXACTLY would you do if you were going to set up a verification system?

Pick already vetted volunteers from TMF to evaluate claims for the vetting list and follow up if necessary (phone calls, emails, IP address review). Whatever works for the claimant that meets the straight face test for TMF vetters. Ever try to open a new credit card at a furniture store Jeff? They call a credit card company who looks at your credit record and asks you addresses you haven't lived at in 15 years, you miss the question? no problem they ask you something else. If you miss enough, pretty clear you aren't who you say you are.

If you were vetting me right now, I would give the names of 3 well known people in the community I know and have either spoken with or met (NEST or elsewhere). For another person, it might be something different. It's not a cookie cutter. I don't think I can give you one. And it's not the way most vetting systems operate. Yet, if there is value in helping to authenticate the chatroom experience simply by maintaining a list of known or established people, not trying to stop every fraud, the incentive is there for legitimate people to establish themselves. I see it as an extension of "no profile, no chat". And Jeff, please accept that my post is intended in good faith. And if you believe that I am trolling. The accept my apology, not my intent.

Kalba.

asutickler
02-09-2009, 10:58 PM
I don't really get why anyone would go to all this trouble... Once you get to know someone a little bit, you can "vet" them yourself with a phone call or audio/video chat or something. Or just go to gatherings and network a little... You'd be really surprised how many folks you get to know secondhand. :)

For the record, I've got tons of folks who can vouch that I am indeed a rhinoceros. :D

RobAce
02-10-2009, 12:07 AM
Here is my problem with a "vetting" process.

Many within this community already feel "edgy", "out of the norm", or "timid" about their fetish. So a new person IF they wanted to go into the chatroom first has to decide to "come out" and register. Then secondly would have to get to know or become "vetted" by people they do not know, already having a hard of enough time coming out and just posting in the first place. Also some people WANT the secrecy, and prefer not to have contact other than chats or IM.

Also, what happens with personal information such as personal emails, phone numbers, real names IF someone finds that information somehow or by accident (it has happened) gets out.

I think as adults we should police ourselves. If something seems out of place, if something does not pass the smell test, then there should be a reason to believe someone is not whom they claim to be. Chatroom users can help each other by talking amongst each other and comparing notes on particular people they may have concerns with. And if there begins to be a lot, then take it to a moderator. They have handled situations like this before. I know of a few ways, but I hesitate to say exactly what they are because I do not know if I should be saying it or not....it may be a trade secret of the great TZAR.

I know its a pain in the ass to be chatting with someone, having some fun cybering then to start seeing the person is not that hot girl with perfect size 6 feet and 36DD breasts, but a 47 year old guy with size 16 feet and the same 36DD breasts. But the TMF simply should not start "vetting" people in the chatroom for something that people will find a way around. Whether its the jokester that gets his girlfriend in on the joke, or just someone that has someone else sign up for him on lark one day and continues to use it long after.

The best way to "vett" people is a personal process. Each person should be sure who they are talking to before they do it. To create some panel of approval would be a hindrance and a possible barrier to new members who like I said before, already are unsure about coming out so to speak in the first place...and now they are being asked to "prove who they are" before they can utter one hello in the chatroom? I think that is doing the community a disservice, may turn a lot of people off from using the chatroom if they have to jump through hoops just to participate. Registering is normal, but to add extra to that for chatroom privileges I think is a bit too much.

Its a great idea in theory to "vett" people, but in practice I think the problems outweigh any benefit to the community at large.

The other thing of a voluntary list is that, then the people who do not want to be "vetted" for perhaps very good reasons, will then be suspect and will be grilled by people in the chatroom or just flat out ignored. Not a great way to make friends and influence people. Kind of like at jobs where someone stole money and the bosses ask for everyone who wants to prove they didn't do it take a polygraph. Yeah sure you don't have to do it to keep your job, but the ones that do will have an easier time at work and no suspicious eyes cast on them.


That's my dollar and two cents.

Rob

Goodieluver
02-10-2009, 12:09 AM
Why start trying to prove a negative? Many chatroom participants have been to NESTs, a gathering or have been with people who have. The community itself is the best way of vetting. And several posters have already pointed out that the legitimate are pretty well known. All I'm saying is why make it a secret or confined to those in the know. Makes no sense to me.

Kalba

I have not been to any gathering

I have met 2 person from this forum which if you want to argue will support or is here or not is questionable. I have 2-3 other people i have spoken to on a rare based frequency.

Am i a male or female? I can support evidence to prove both

Will i not be allowed in unless i prove to you or some other person multiple forms of identification?

It seems to be a reason for someone who is mad to be fooled by someone who was male who said they were fem.

Typically its very easy to pick up on that

Chat is fine, live and learn

Goodieluver
02-10-2009, 12:11 AM
I don't really get why anyone would go to all this trouble... Once you get to know someone a little bit, you can "vet" them yourself with a phone call or audio/video chat or something. Or just go to gatherings and network a little... You'd be really surprised how many folks you get to know secondhand. :)

For the record, I've got tons of folks who can vouch that I am indeed a rhinoceros. :D

Amen

I'll just PM random men and women for whatever frills i want, screw chat :goodjob:

Kalba
02-10-2009, 08:40 PM
Here is my problem with a "vetting" process.

Many within this community already feel "edgy", "out of the norm", or "timid" about their fetish. So a new person IF they wanted to go into the chatroom first has to decide to "come out" and register. Then secondly would have to get to know or become "vetted" by people they do not know, already having a hard of enough time coming out and just posting in the first place. Also some people WANT the secrecy, and prefer not to have contact other than chats or IM.

Also, what happens with personal information such as personal emails, phone numbers, real names IF someone finds that information somehow or by accident (it has happened) gets out.

I think as adults we should police ourselves. If something seems out of place, if something does not pass the smell test, then there should be a reason to believe someone is not whom they claim to be. Chatroom users can help each other by talking amongst each other and comparing notes on particular people they may have concerns with. And if there begins to be a lot, then take it to a moderator. They have handled situations like this before. I know of a few ways, but I hesitate to say exactly what they are because I do not know if I should be saying it or not....it may be a trade secret of the great TZAR.

I know its a pain in the ass to be chatting with someone, having some fun cybering then to start seeing the person is not that hot girl with perfect size 6 feet and 36DD breasts, but a 47 year old guy with size 16 feet and the same 36DD breasts. But the TMF simply should not start "vetting" people in the chatroom for something that people will find a way around. Whether its the jokester that gets his girlfriend in on the joke, or just someone that has someone else sign up for him on lark one day and continues to use it long after.

The best way to "vett" people is a personal process. Each person should be sure who they are talking to before they do it. To create some panel of approval would be a hindrance and a possible barrier to new members who like I said before, already are unsure about coming out so to speak in the first place...and now they are being asked to "prove who they are" before they can utter one hello in the chatroom? I think that is doing the community a disservice, may turn a lot of people off from using the chatroom if they have to jump through hoops just to participate. Registering is normal, but to add extra to that for chatroom privileges I think is a bit too much.

Its a great idea in theory to "vett" people, but in practice I think the problems outweigh any benefit to the community at large.

The other thing of a voluntary list is that, then the people who do not want to be "vetted" for perhaps very good reasons, will then be suspect and will be grilled by people in the chatroom or just flat out ignored. Not a great way to make friends and influence people. Kind of like at jobs where someone stole money and the bosses ask for everyone who wants to prove they didn't do it take a polygraph. Yeah sure you don't have to do it to keep your job, but the ones that do will have an easier time at work and no suspicious eyes cast on them.


That's my dollar and two cents.

Rob

down to. What do you have to offer up and what do you have to hide. Making poser hide isn't an issue to me since they aren't obeying the rules to start with. Problem is, no enforcement, no rules. It's like a 55 mile an hour speed limit sign in the 1980s. Establishing a list of the legitimate doesn't force anyone to "come out". It just gives an option to those with nothing to hide a way to validate who they are.

Kalba

Kalba
02-10-2009, 08:44 PM
I have not been to any gathering

I have met 2 person from this forum which if you want to argue will support or is here or not is questionable. I have 2-3 other people i have spoken to on a rare based frequency.

Am i a male or female? I can support evidence to prove both

Will i not be allowed in unless i prove to you or some other person multiple forms of identification?

It seems to be a reason for someone who is mad to be fooled by someone who was male who said they were fem.

Typically its very easy to pick up on that

Chat is fine, live and learn

If you knew or know someone credible with Jeff, Myriads, Amanda or whoever, fine validate yourself or don't. That's up to you. Point is if you want to vett yourself, you should have that choice. And Chatroom participants should have some protection from posers. Raising red herrings and strawmen does nothing to address the issues at hand. Again, simply maintaining a list that is voluntary doesn't raise any of the 1984 arguments you present. Respond to the proposal.

Kalba.

Jorschach
02-10-2009, 09:16 PM
If you knew or know someone credible with Jeff, Myriads, Amanda or whoever, fine validate yourself or don't. That's up to you. Point is if you want to vett yourself, you should have that choice. And Chatroom participants should have some protection from posers. Raising red herrings and strawmen does nothing to address the issues at hand. Again, simply maintaining a list that is voluntary doesn't raise any of the 1984 arguments you present. Respond to the proposal.

Kalba.

lol.

"Respond to the proposal."

Okay.

I think it's a whacked idea, that has no viable possibility of even working. Ever. You say that chat-room participants should have protection? Okay. Protect yourself. The chatroom is not some government mandated function that needs to be in use to maintain a balance in everyday society. Especially THIS chatroom.

If *you* want to create your *OWN* application process, that will allow member's the once in a lifetime golden opportunity to chat or even cyber (which is what the main reason of this is for, I'm betting) with you, then go for it!

I admire your diligence, but it's useless. Own up to the defeat and keep on keeping on, guy.. or girl.

What? I couldn't resist that one.

Kalba
02-10-2009, 09:29 PM
lol.

"Respond to the proposal."

Okay.

I think it's a whacked idea, that has no viable possibility of even working. Ever. You say that chat-room participants should have protection? Okay. Protect yourself. The chatroom is not some government mandated function that needs to be in use to maintain a balance in everyday society. Especially THIS chatroom.

If *you* want to create your *OWN* application process, that will allow member's the once in a lifetime golden opportunity to chat or even cyber (which is what the main reason of this is for, I'm betting) with you, then go for it!

I admire your diligence, but it's useless. Own up to the defeat and keep on keeping on, guy.. or girl.

What? I couldn't resist that one.

When you are short on ideas just attack the proposer instead of the proposal and lord knows gotta have those red herrings and strawmen. Beats thinking. ;)

Kalba

venray
02-10-2009, 09:37 PM
Pick already vetted volunteers from TMF to evaluate claims for the vetting list and follow up if necessary (phone calls, emails, IP address review). Whatever works for the claimant that meets the straight face test for TMF vetters. Ever try to open a new credit card at a furniture store Jeff? They call a credit card company who looks at your credit record and asks you addresses you haven't lived at in 15 years, you miss the question? no problem they ask you something else. If you miss enough, pretty clear you aren't who you say you are.

If you were vetting me right now, I would give the names of 3 well known people in the community I know and have either spoken with or met (NEST or elsewhere). For another person, it might be something different. It's not a cookie cutter. I don't think I can give you one. And it's not the way most vetting systems operate. Yet, if there is value in helping to authenticate the chatroom experience simply by maintaining a list of known or established people, not trying to stop every fraud, the incentive is there for legitimate people to establish themselves. I see it as an extension of "no profile, no chat". And Jeff, please accept that my post is intended in good faith. And if you believe that I am trolling. The accept my apology, not my intent.

Kalba.

most well known members are not going to give up time to verify gender so guys know who they are playing with in chat.....

There are a lot better things to do with one's time...

If you have a problem with chatting with folks you cant prove are male or female, then vett them yourself....

meet at a munch or gathering or exchange numbers with those that will do so, but dont put it on the forum and its mods and members to do it for you..

Kalba
02-10-2009, 09:43 PM
...., but dont put it on the forum and its mods and members to do it for you..

But there isn't much point having a suggestion & feedback board if you can't make suggestions and feedback, is there? Not every suggestion is accepted. But at least you can discuss ideas respectfully without the ad hominems and personal attacks. Or maybe you can't here. I don't know. done...

Jorschach
02-10-2009, 09:44 PM
When you are short on ideas just attack the proposer instead of the proposal and lord knows gotta have those red herrings and strawmen. Beats thinking. ;)

Kalba

Only attack the one doing the attacking. You clearly don't like that everyone isn't all ZOMGWHATAGREATIDEALETSDOIT. So, instead of letting it die gracefully, you continue to bring up repetitive points with little to no impact.

Circular, if you will.

You spin me right round baby, right round..?

Kalba
02-10-2009, 09:50 PM
Only attack the one doing the attacking. You clearly don't like that everyone isn't all ZOMGWHATAGREATIDEALETSDOIT. So, instead of letting it die gracefully, you continue to bring up repetitive points with little to no impact.

Circular, if you will.

You spin me right round baby, right round..?

asked the question. I tried to respond to his point, specifically. And I did not employ a lot of red herrings, tangents and strawmen.

TMF Jeff
02-10-2009, 09:53 PM
I still don't see this as remotely do-able. But if you want to set up such a system, the TMF will support and endorse it.

Jorschach
02-10-2009, 09:54 PM
asked the question. I tried to respond to his point, specifically. And I did not employ a lot of red herrings, tangents and strawmen.

You remind me a lot of vsa7a. That user was persistent as all hell for a seperate area/name/ect for youtube videos.

Just thought I'd make an observation. :)

Good luck with your attempt at screening 81,000+ members at random time intervals and in random situations.

chicago
02-11-2009, 01:03 AM
When making this list of vetted members, please no use of the words "red herring" or "straw men".

DownUnder
02-11-2009, 02:19 AM
I'd like to ask a legitimate question.

So far Kalba's proposal has received unfavourable feedback from the Tzar, the Founder, the venerable Venray, plus folks like Robace, CrystalLight and AnnieHall, all of whom extremely knowledgeable and experienced members of the forum. If that is not a ringing disendorsement of the proposal, I don't know what is.

Myriads and Jeff had been extremely patient in allowing so much discussion on this proposal, despite minimal support from the community at large.

Can I ask how will this proposal be determined? Is it an executive decision by the admins and mods, or will it be put to a forum-wide poll? If it's the former, how much more submissions on the proposal will be allowed before a decision is reached? If it's the latter, may I move the motion that Kalba's proposal, pursuant to the opening post of the thread, be put to vote?

Kalba
02-11-2009, 07:51 PM
I still don't see this as remotely do-able. But if you want to set up such a system, the TMF will support and endorse it.

It's your system, your responsibility and oversight. If you up to it, manage the system you created. Delegating or trying delegate changes you know you won't try is a waste everyone's time. Next time, don't solicit imput unless you are serious about taking responsibility for it.

Kalba

Kalba
02-11-2009, 07:54 PM
You remind me a lot of vsa7a. That user was persistent as all hell for a seperate area/name/ect for youtube videos.

Just thought I'd make an observation. :)

Good luck with your attempt at screening 81,000+ members at random time intervals and in random situations.

Thanks for your input. I'm not persistent, just not a doormat. You guys make a suggestion forum. You should honor it and not make contributors feel like criminals.

Kalba
02-11-2009, 07:57 PM
When making this list of vetted members, please no use of the words "red herring" or "straw men".

and stop the needless ridicule to improve or at least discussing improving conditions on TMF for all of its member instead of this banter.

Kalba.

LD_Tickler
02-11-2009, 09:17 PM
I think it's a neat idea.

Although, Kalba, even if participation is voluntary, the mere presence of a list of "authenticated" users will create a bit of a tier system. People will feel pressured to participate, voluntary or no.

There are plenty of reasons somebody might not want to participate even if they are who they claim to be.

So for that reason, I would advise against this system. I don't think it's fair to add any pressure at all for people to expose themselves.

Jorschach
02-11-2009, 09:24 PM
Thanks for your input. I'm not persistent, just not a doormat. You guys make a suggestion forum. You should honor it and not make contributors feel like criminals.

You've only made a suggestion. You need more of a pitch to back it. If you want something this bad, then set up shit. You know; pie-charts, flow charts, image charts, connect the dot's for the kids. All that shit.

Kalba
02-11-2009, 10:07 PM
I think it's a neat idea.

Although, Kalba, even if participation is voluntary, the mere presence of a list of "authenticated" users will create a bit of a tier system. People will feel pressured to participate, voluntary or no.

There are plenty of reasons somebody might not want to participate even if they are who they claim to be.

So for that reason, I would advise against this system. I don't think it's fair to add any pressure at all for people to expose themselves.

differently. I respect your position. In all candor, I don't expect anything will be done. It's just frustrating going into the chatroom with the same "guys" hitting on me (or someone else) in violation of the rules and nothing gets done. I think though someone was on to something regarding greener pastures. No system is ever going to get better when there is more heat than light in the dialogue.

venray
02-12-2009, 12:06 AM
A voluntary system will not stop those same guys from hitting on you....

Use the ignore button and out them in open chat.....

That has always worked for me...


Look...you made a suggestion, no one wants to implement and moderate it...

A thousand such suggestions are made in a year covering various topics...some are implemented some not...

The bottom line is that such a system will do little to help the forum in general and the work involved would not be justified....

Since the mods are unpaid and do this in their spare time and other forum members come here to do their own thing, it is highly unlikely that something like this would ever get off the ground even if you did have a way to do it which you have shown no one..

It is fine to make a suggestion, but you need to have some plan in mind as to how it could be carried out or accept the fact that the reasons you were given for not doing it are valid ones...

Goodieluver
02-12-2009, 05:48 PM
Im pretty sure Venray is a hologram

I have evidence to prove this and will vett it to all

Kalba
02-12-2009, 09:09 PM
A voluntary system will not stop those same guys from hitting on you....

Use the ignore button and out them in open chat.....

That has always worked for me...

I do. And thanks for the input. Nice to hear something constructive for a change.



Look...you made a suggestion, no one wants to implement and moderate it...

A thousand such suggestions are made in a year covering various topics...some are implemented some not...

The bottom line is that such a system will do little to help the forum in general and the work involved would not be justified....

Agree noone wants to implement or maintain it. The idea that a vetting list would do little to help the forum is conjecture and supposition.


Since the mods are unpaid and do this in their spare time and other forum members come here to do their own thing, it is highly unlikely that something like this would ever get off the ground even if you did have a way to do it which you have shown no one..

It is fine to make a suggestion, but you need to have some plan in mind as to how it could be carried out or accept the fact that the reasons you were given for not doing it are valid ones...

Well not sure how I follow a plan being necessary for having valid reasons. People present valid reasons every day without plans. Besides, as I said, you don't need a cookie cutter to maintain a list. It's pretty simple. Someone either meets your vetting standard and judgment or they don't.

A vetting list not getting off the ground is fine but not the issue. It's to raise awareness about problems that confront TMF members and find ways to address them. I was simply offering an approach. I'm content with it not being favored. You never learn anything if you don't propose and discuss.


Im pretty sure Venray is a hologram

I have evidence to prove this and will vett it to all

:rolleyes:

venray
02-12-2009, 09:15 PM
A vetting list not getting off the ground is fine but not the issue. It's to raise awareness about problems that confront TMF members and find ways to address them. I was simply offering an approach. I'm content with it not being favored. You never learn anything if you don't propose and discuss.



:

True...discussion is always good

ikaiyoo
02-16-2009, 05:08 PM
I can understand caring about the gender of the person you're flirting with. But I think you're not really seeing how big a deal this would end up being.

I think this sounds like a pretty big logistical undertaking, even without going to the extreme that Myriads was suggesting.

Even just creating a database of people known to be the gender they claim, would be a lot of work. I know that I don't want to take dozens of calls from people just to prove they're who they say they are. And I don't really want to ask anyone else to do that.

And then we have to set up some kind of way to access that information. Someone either has to be on deck to answer the question "Is this person really a girl?" or else we have to... what, make it publicly available? Isn't that a little demeaning, having a list of girls who have had to prove their gender?

Also that seems to involve someone giving someone else their phone number, either the chatter or the verifier, and that's a lot of information to give away along with your gender.

And all of it for what exactly? My advice would be 1) don't do anything in the chat room with someone if you would be freaked out by their being a guy instead of a girl, unless you've talked to them. And 2) if they want to do that kind of stuff but won't talk to you, see rule 1.

Or maybe I'm wrong. I'm open to hearing where I misunderstood, or am not seeing something...


Well it doesnt have to be that complicated I do not think and I am just throwing out an idea here. But eHarmony, alt.com, and the like have a verification system they use. it is called RelyId (http://www.relyid.com/) is 5 bucks and 5 bucks a month to maintain but we would only need it once. it wouldnt be manditory for the person to participate in it but it would be easy to impliment and they could do it once and there you go. The information they use stays on their system. No infomration has to be given to any of the mods or what have you and it verifies they are who they say they are.

Just a thought.