Arabs in America

[WallStreet]

I think with all the things going on in NY and Washington right now we need to remember something. Habib down at the local 7-11 is NOT our enemy. Neither is Babu down at the newspaper stand. Alot of these people came to America to get away from the shit that's going on in their homelands. Trust me, nobody is more into retaliation than me, but it's got to be focused retaliation.
I feel that wether or not Afganistan give us Bin Laden that they need to be attacked as an example of what will happen to those who foster terrorists. The example it sets will last for years to come. Anyone who saw with their own eyes what I saw on 9/11/01 would totally agree.

[thenaveltickler]

Wall Street...glad to hear from you...it's been a hectic two days. I also agree with you on the need to focus our anger on the right people and not just any Arab we see on the street. However I do believe there are probably a few thousand Arabs in the States that support and even are part of terrorist cells supported by terorist groups in the Middle East. I think the FBI needs to get these Arabs out of this country and unfortunately all Arabs may have to go under some unfair scrutiny to make this happen. We need to take back our country and not be intimidated by these gutless religious idiots. I am a little disappointed that Afghanastan has not been hit already..we know Bin Laden is involved and has been involved in several other incidents...so what the hell are we waiting for?? Anyway, once again glad to hear you're ok...

[SuperTickler]

Originally posted by WallStreet
...Babu down at the newspaper stand.
(Wagging index finger slowly, from side to side): "He's a bad man, this Jerry Seinfeld. He's a very, very bad man!" :cool:

Glad to hear that you're OK, W$!

[dig dug dog]

LOL--good one, SuperT. Gotta love Seinfeld.

WallStreet: What I want to hear is Islamic religious leaders teaching loudly and clearly how their religion absolutely prohibits and condemns these types of actions. It is the combination of Arab nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism which is currently the most dangerous force on earth.

ddd

[Darkknight]

"Islamic religious leaders teaching loudly and clearly how their religion absolutely prohibits and condemns these types of actions."

Dig Dug Dog we had some Islamic religious leaders in Chicago speak out loudly about this as we had some racial tension with Arabs. They codemn this terrorist act and said how these actions went against all their beliefs.
Like Wallstreet said... most came here to get away from all that bull$hit.

I do not agree to grab all Arabs in America and put them thru hell especially the American Arab people to filter out those that follow Bin Laden.
I am 100% Hispanic but have 3 cousins that are half Arab and their father is 100% Arab, born in that country.
He's not the nicest guy but he would never cheer on such slaughter and often spoke against the politics of his country. My cousins got a lot of heat with the Gulf war.
I worry about them though they are tough kids. They were born Americans and love America and fight for America.

We have to stick together as Americans.

Nuff said,
DK

[thenaveltickler]

Darknight - when will it be ok to inconvienience the Arab American community for our safety? When someone brings in a nuclear warhead and kills a million people?? I'm sorry...I am so sick of this liberal ass the whole world revolves around me bullshit. I have no doubt the FBI knows a good portion of the "bad" Arabs in this country so I don't think there is a need to recreate what happened to the Japanese in WW2 or make a sequel to the movie the Siege. However, the Arabs in question, their friends and families need to be THOROUGHLY INTERROGATED. And as far as I'm concerned if there is any doubt as to their allegiance to the US they need to be deported the hell out of here.

[SLT]

hi all - first of all wallstreet im very happy to see ur alive and well. i hope in the days that follow we can say the same of many new yorkers. now im in the sales business in ny. my job brings me into contact with several store owners of arab descent either born here or there originally. i think in the weeks and months that lie ahead, it will be very interesting to sound these people out on their feelings about this horrific occurrence. and then lets see where their allegiences really are, especially after this country's retalliatory strikes.

[thenaveltickler]

slt...that's a great strategy...let's wait around and see what happens. That strategy is identical to the one we have taken the past several years which has now resulted in thousands of people being killed. Enough is enough..America needs to go on the offensive and yes it's going to suck for some really good people but that's what needs to be done to solidify the country.

[SLT]

wait a minute - did you even bother to read what i wrote? who said anthing about lets wait and see. i said i want to know which of these people i work with might be sympathizers of these animals. u must be kidding me i agree with lawrence eagleburger the former us asst sec. of state who said hours after this happened, the us has to hit someone fast, he went so far as to say its not all that important if its the exact group that carried it out. beacuse there were probably so many groups involved. its a matter of just pick one.

i would never advocate this nation "waits and sees" . we have already waited too long. if truman were president today, the attack would have long since taken place.

[qjakal]

Don't do the very thing you were just ranting about, bud. Lumping all "right wingers" together as though they are identical. I think the younger memebers of our group are howling for blood a bit indiscriminately, but that's the nature of youth, and the reason that decisions are made by more mature representatives. As an avowed conservative, I too deplore some of the decisions that were made in MANY other administrations, but I also try to temper that with the knowledge that I don't possess (and neither do you), the amount of information that was used to MAKE these decisions at that time...an important distinction. Looking backwards and using the power of hindsight to "see" mistakes is simple, but nonproductive. Sorry for your losses, both physical and emotional, but as a fellow NYC resident I also want justice served....and if that requires blood and sacrifice, so be it. Its time to stand together and SHOW that you support the basic principles that make us unique as a nation. Please don't EVER bring Nazi actions into this discussion again. The concept is abhorrent and insulting to intelligent life, and will only serve to divide us at a time when unity is critical. We can debate politics after justice has been served..... Q

[sceej56]

There were spontaneous outbreaks of celebration in the West Bank; the spinmeisters are now trying to claim this was a result of confusion. There were spontaneous celebrations in Queens - mere miles form the WTC. I could lie and say I was an eye witness; I wasn't but it's been reported from two independnet eyewitnesses including a close friend, who was part of a growing mob held at bay by cops as drum beating Arabs were loaded into a police van laughing and screaming anti-American invective.

I'm not saying we need internment camps but it will not be business as usual. It's becoming apparent that some of the perpetrators were "innocent Arabs" living in America as sleepers for years. I'm sure most Arabs here are loyal to this country but it is plain naive to think, for example, that from the forseeable future John Smith and Ahmed Akbar Mohammed will be or should be treated equally as they approach an airport metal detector - and yes I am aware that Ahmed could be a Purple Heart winning Marine!

[Bootman]

All I know is there was a group of middle east people(not sure of their background)happy as hell celebrating in our country in the streets, (about 3 towns away from my house) that people had died..That pisses me off...I'm not going to do anything about because I'm mature and not a savage but I'd like to do something about it. These people if they ever do that around americans, will probably be beaten or killed..It's like spitting in our face. I just hope this nightmare is over soon and the people responsible are dealth with swiftly..

[qjakal]

If you happen to hear of a law being passed to that effect, then speak that vile term...until then you're just spouting crap, because 10 hotheads used the term "towelheads". If you honestly believe our countrys government is of "Nazi" quality, you should be migrating south or north rapidly....if I did I'd be out of here in a wink. Obviously you're also overemotional about the events of Tuesday,as we all are, but that rant has NO place here and no facts backing it up. We've been in a position to conquer the world several times, and have instead repaired and nurtured it. The vast majority of America is made up of intelligent compassionate people, and you besmirch us all with that judgement. The acts of a few do NOT reflect the will of either the government or the majority, as you well know. The frustration of having an "invisible" enemy is tremendous, and people will overreact. Dealing with it is part of the process of belonging to a democracy..... Q

[Darkknight]

thenavaltickler,

INCONVIENCE THE ARABIC COMMUNITY??

You know, I'm about to lose my cool. And this board is for intelligent discussion. So I'm shutting my mouth to avoid conflict with my own people (AMERICANS) and keep my anger focused on those incline to kill thousands of innocents.

But know this, I have a kind-heart woman at work crying her eyes out because she is of Muselum (sp?) faith and she's in fear for her sons at school cuz of this biased rage on
finding anyone wearing a "towel-head" cuz they must be secretly be behind Bin Laden.

Irrational thinking is BULLSHIT.

DK

[WallStreet]

I thought I'd check back in on the thread I started. Looks like I really broke a hornet's nest open this time. To quote Thurston Howell the Third on the classic Beauty Contest episode "Gilligan, what a can of peas you've opened this time!"
Now I want you guys to play nice, otherwise I'll have to start giving out demerits.

[qjakal]

Sorry, but I hate when people bandy the Nazi comparisions around whenever something comes up...that GOVERNMENT did atrocious things that will ring down through history as the standard for evil. To even apply it to individual actions is ridiculous. Q

[MrHighArches]

Wallstreet glad to hear you are aok. My sister dated someone a year ago who worked for fred alger on the 93 floor of the north tower. He wasn't so lucky....

[Daumantas]

I know someone personally who has undergone harassment for any number of years because she is a naturalized citizen who happens to be of Iranian descent, despite the fact that her family FLED Iran in 1979 precisely in order to escape Khomeini and his murderous regime.

I fear for her safety these days. Remember, people, let's focus our anger on our enemies, who are EXTERNAL, and not on loyal fellow Americans who happen to have parents or grandparents who came here from the "wrong" country.

[Shem the Penman]

Quite right, Daumantas.

Also, regarding those Arab-Americans and Arab immigrants who are insensitive enough to celebrate: One of the things about a free society is that people have a perfect right to be schmucks. It's no different in principle from, say, that Klan rally in downtown Manhattan last year. Both were highly offensive to the vast majority of Americans, but both are protected forms of expression no matter what. To forbid them is to open the door to curtailing our own right to express our opinions.

I realize knowing that doesn't make it any easier to tolerate, but in the long run those celebrations are irrelevant. They won't change a thing; they won't stop the rebuilding to come, or the discovery and punishment of the guilty.

[MadKalnod]

Qjakal, this might help distract you from your anger...

Remember what P.J. O'Rourke said in Give War a Chance :

"I don't mind when people call me a Nazi. Really, I get a kick out of it. Because nobody, anywhere, ever has had sexual fantasies of being tied to a bed and ravished by someone dressed as a Liberal."

[qjakal]

Okay...that hit the spot..thanx Mad, I needed that. Q

[WallStreet]

I think when I started this thread I made enough of a mess, but I must now add that these people who are rejoicing in our streets actually DO have a right to celebrate just like the Klan would or any other hate group would. Just like WE have the right to kick their asses if we ever see them doing it.
I'd like you all to remember my original post, and that is that we can't just go around lashing out at every arab looking person we see. If they're in the street celebrating that's a different story. But we can't just steamroll Arab Americans the way we did the Japanese Americans in WWII. Alot of Hindus that resemble Arabs are probably catching abuse for no reason at all.
As more time unfolds we are finding out more and more about who exactly planned the attack. I think we already know who it is anyway. Hopefully our next posts will be those of rejoicement and YES, those of revenge.

[MistressMia]

Just wanted to let you all know that the Mods DO read everything that is posted. And I have noticed and am pleased to see that eventhough this is a passionate subject for us all, this thread has thus far been self-sufficient.

We are all going through an onslaught of emotions right now. I myself find that I'm going through some crying, numbness and anger, yet all of these things are reflected in this very thread. We all feel basically the same way, however our solutions are slightly varied. This too is reflected in this thread.

Please remember, all opinions are as valid as the next. As you know, we don't need or desire flame wars and your help in this is appreciated.

I already noticed that some have ALMOST started, but the maturity of the members themselves have stoked them out. We are greatful for your efforts. Thank you and keep up the good work. I just hope I haven't spoken too soon...lol!

;)

[qjakal]

Headtripper, I think if you re-read my post, I actually acknowledged that we were ALL overemotional at this point, and that I agreed in general for the call for keeping our heads and some perspective. I'm ping-ponging between depression and blind rage/frustration....and I've admitted to staring at guys that up til now have just been a part of the neighborhood scenery. It's a bad time, and you're correct that the sort of emotions that are of a destructive nature would likely please our enemies greatly. Still....we need some sort of action in the near future, or despair may indeed creep into our national consciousness. Peace --and may the days ahead be filled with victories of many sorts. Q

[Ticklebug]

Guys, your are making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

We should simply make Afghanastan the 51st state, suck out it's oil, kick out the men, and tickle all the girls.

Simple Justice

[red indian]

I have to agree with those in this thread who are against blowing holes in the desert ( and anyone carrying the koran) thats the kind of jackass response they are after, I think you intellegence guys and army guys can learn a lot from the Northern ireland situation. We have been putting up with appalling acts of this kind for a long time in the UK (the scale is not the same of course but the principle holds true) and the jackass responce would be to invade the place or nuke it which we could very easily do ,but the politicall and humanitarian considerations are overriding in the 21st century thankfully.We have of course been taking action against the IRA and it has taken 30 years to get them to the negotiating table and that is in large part due to sucsessfull under cover intelligence work which was striking at the heart of their organisation ( soory to dissapoint you all, it had bugger all to do with clinton!) so i hope and trust that the UK government will back you guys all the way and I hope that you get the right people and only the right people.just a final thought, moderate muslims are of course against this dreadfull act and have said so but I want to hear it loud and often and they should realise that they are key to getting these nutters, its no use sending a CIA guys in dark shades chewing gum, they the muslims hold they key to victory over these scum.

[dig dug dog]

red indian--

You make a crucial point. Until the Arab and Moslem worlds come down passionatly and unequivocally against terror conducted in the name of Islam it will be much harder to eradicate it. If we can bring the RELIGIOUS power of Islam into play against these dark forces, the chance of success are much greater. Let's hear from the so-called moderate Islamic states and let's see some real action on their parts.

ddd

[Ticklebug]

Red indian,

your govenment has not been working 30 years to get the IRA to the table , but rather for over 300 years to take their land.

[red indian]

Well if you want to go down that road TB there is an obvious answer and the clue is in my name.

[ForgottenTcklr]

Fellow Americans. For the first time in my life I am truly proud to be an American. It is at this time that we have focused ourselves together for the greater good of our nation. We are breaking through political descrepencies and personal, racial, gender, and religious differences. I pray that we find ourselves through this. May God guide every decision we make.

[Ticklebug]

Right you are Red Indian,

Someday i'll share my manifesto solution. But not now and not here.. but you point in mentioning it is legitamate

[red indian]

You fell right in to that one TB! but you raise a good point about the broader issues of this tragedy, how far back do you go in history to find the "real" cause of these shamefull acts? and of course one mans terrorist is another mans "freedom fighter" the palestinians of course feel their land was "taken" from them by U.S. backed israel and the IRA carry out their atrosities on innocent civilians with millions of pounds collected in the U.S. You talk of taking land? let me just add this "They made us promises, more than I can remember, but they kept but one; they promised to take our land, and they took it" Red Cloud.

[qjakal]

The landscape is indeed littered with guilt in all directions, but we should at least try to make the distinction between the processes of assimilation that displaced the American Indian (still not right, but inevitable) and the blatant evil acts foisted upon the world in the name of a Holy Cause. The cultures of many of the Native American tribes still exist, and their influence upon our present day society has been in evidence for generations. I feel fortunate to count Cherokee in my heritage, and am sure that their part in the mosaic we call the USA is secure and profound. May the ancestors of those brave, proud warriors who lived harmoniously with nature be with us in this time of peril. You have a good point about "freedom fighters" , red indian, and I'll be happy to discuss it further, but at present it's time to finish our sad search through the rubble and begin to seek the justice that our country craves so badly. Forgive the sour attitude, my company just finished cleaning the gear of 22 Fire Departments, and unless you have a strong stomach, I'd never describe what came off them to you.....we'll clean the other 50+ departments when this mess is over, and I intend to tear up the bill and make it my contribution to the effort. Q

[red indian]

you make some very good points q and thanks for your response, but make no mistake, I am 100 percent behind the u.s. on this, as is well documented else where on this site. i do not pretend to have any of the answers to these questions but i had to respond to TB,s interesting point.

[SlaverTickler]

I am a Canadian. I come from a country that has pryded itself on it's muticulturalizem. We (hitoricaly) aided slaves in excapping to the freedome of the north, granted Jews equil rights as sitzens, with out human rights activest breathing down our necks. We were in World War II wen the first shots were fired. We will stand by our brothers to the south against the comon foe of Terrorisim. That is the enamy here my friends. Not Muslums, or any other group of people. It is the actions of some people who we are battling, don't hate an entire race of people simply because a group of terrorists are of the same culture. Thenaveltickler, you are praposing to violate the very rights that this war is going to be fought to for. Maybe we should watch you and make sure you don't blow up any churches or building consisting of Arahbs. remember Arahbs died working in the World Trade Center that were just making a buck, every one must remeber what our two nation represent, THE NEW WORLD. New hope, New lives, and New oprotunities for some who would have none at all. Thank you for reading.

[Ticklebug]

Red Indian- i agree you have a legitamate point but must remind you that i promised at a later time i will unviel my manifesto which will make your "how far back should we go" question" irrelavant.

SlaverTickler- lets not forget the enmemy here. It was not the IRA, it was not the Chechans, it was not the chiapas....

It was ARAB terroists... please don't be like all the wimpy politically correct liberal new casters who refuse to admitt the obviuos... (You can be honest in here- you are anonymous and won't loose your job for being so) these terroists were ARAB... ARAB TERRORIEts GET IT.?????


Yes they were individuals.. but they were ARAB individuals... Lets not forget that they were ARABS.

FACT... FACE IT

[MistressMia]

All,

Just a reminder, due to the unusual and stressful times we are all experiencing, I (we Mods) urge you to take careful consideration in the words and tone used in posts BEFORE hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

We are all undergoing some measurement of grief, anger and irritation, however we must try to keep it in check as best we can.

Some recent posts come across antagonistical and are instigating an argument that is bound to turn into an all out flame war. Let's avoid this route and refrain from picking any fights and/or making tasteless/senseless remarks.

Let's be strong and get through this difficult time...

ps
It's never too late to edit your own posts! (not just in this thread but in any others as well!)

[Ticklebug]

Sorry Mia and SlaverTickler

[Strelnikov]

It's coming. Published accounts of the FBI investigation indicate that the hijackers were terrorist moles who lived in this country for years before the attack. Habib at the 7-11 may have had nothing to do with it, may in fact be appalled, but he's going under the microscope regardless because the terrorists look like him.

It can't be otherwise. The threat is deadly and resources to combat and thwart it are finite. Should we pretend that the next attackers will be Hasidic Jews or Irish Catholics, all for the sake of political correctness?

ACLU and others like them be damned. We can sort this out, and pay compensation if it's warranted, after the war is over.

Strelnikov

[qjakal]

It can't be that way....we have to face our fears and be brave enough NOT to make the assumption that we can tell who is a "bad" person by sight. I have admitted my own transgression, and I am determined to master these emotions and channel them into something productive. Not to be "politically correct", for that is another way to be cowardly, but to be brave enough to extend our freedom to any that have not violated us personally. We are strong enough to do this Strel, but it isn't going to be simple, for it requires discipline and effort. Take the high road and watch over these people, 99.9% of whom are merely working to better themselves and their families lives. Not easy...not easy at all. I have been coping with anger for many years from a variety of sources, mostly related to family tragedies that seem endless and unfair, so I am aware of the effort it takes to do this.....be a "protector" until it is time to do otherwise, and then be the monster that rages inside us all at times like this. I have a feeling we're not done with the entire business yet...if I were planning this attack, I'd have another set of reserves ready to counter the retaliation that they KNOW is coming. I also feel strongly that when this spider web is untangled, it will lead back to our old nemesis Saddam.....time will tell. Q

[Daumantas]

Good point about Saddam, Q...I too believe he is ultimately the source of this.

Pray for Kujman.

Pray also for all the families of the deceased.

Tomorrow is Monday. I intend to go to work and do my job just like always. I'm scared, of course, as we all are. But it we allow the terrorists to give in to fear to the point where we are afraid to leave the house, they win. Take appropriate precautions -- but go about your daily routine. Trust in God and he will protect you.

[Haltickling]

thanaveltickler, I must sincerely ask you to cool down. Islam is not a 'barbaric' religion at all, it is abused for madmen's political causes just as much as Christianity. No truly believing muslim is part of this terrorism; the ones I know even consider those who committed this hideous crime to belong to Islam's worst enemies. No religion or race can be held responsible as a whole for the deeds of a bunch of dangerous, criminal fanatics.

So please let's stop infighting, and let's concentrate on those who are really responsible. They will be stamped out!!!

[dig dug dog]

No matter what happens in the next days, months and years, there will always be a war that, on one crucial level, was worse for the US than any other: the Civil War--brother against brother, friend against friend. I don't even think we can conceive now of how awful this was for the nation.

Please remember this one and all (navel tickler and dark knight) before issuing harsh words and challenges....


ddd

[MistressMia]

Thenaveltickler and DarkKnight original posts have been removed due to flame content.

[sltkl]

My fellow ticklers,
I, as well as the rest of the country, would like to extend my thoughts of good will and prayers to all who were affected by the heinous events of Tuesday last. I am a natural born American citizen, male, caucasian, 28 yrs. old. I am the grandson of Immigrants from Hungary on my fathers side, and the 5th or 6th generation descendent of Irish and English Immigrants on my mothers. I give you this information so that you will understand that every last one of us has a branch in our family tree that leads from North America to Europe, or Asia, or Africa, or most germanely, the Middle East.
These people are not, "foreigners", or "Ay-rabs", or any other derogatory name that you might lable them with. They are Americans! Perhaps Americans with a different genetic ancestry than most of us, but Americans none the less. We should all be cognizant of the fact that if just one American citizen has their rights violated, we are just that much closer to surrendering to the kind of thought processes that drive the animals who have attacked us.
Some evils are greater than others. Which of us hasn't lied. Or cheated. Or done any of a dozen other trivial evils. But occasionally in the world an evil will arise that is so diabolical, so dastardly, that it requires the unification of all who are civilized, regardless of race, religion, creed,or country. Hitler was one of those evils. International terrorism is another. I would like to thank you for this opportunity to air my thoughts and would like to close with a quote by Winston Churchill
"... we have nothing to give but our blood, toil, sweat, and tears.
Thank You,
sltkl

[LordProtector]

Every dog has its' day. They had theirs, we will have ours. But that the sadness of all this. It will never end. There will always be some pissed off person, faction or country around the world. Terrorism has now become a fact of life for everybody. My own secret fear is that this is the beginning of the end. How far are we willing to go in the name of freedom and democracy? Sure we can wipe out anybody we like, but there will be others. And in our crusade we'll piss of some others and they will be our enemies and so on and so on.... until there is no one.

[ManInBlack]

Hey guys,

I'm a many generational American whose roots go back to Ireland and Scotland. But I found these words from an Afghani-American very instructive:


Food for thought for the Militarists
Written by an Afghani in the U.S.

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age." Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My
hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind
that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan.

When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would
exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, uffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the easons
why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

---------------------

End of Afghani-American's thoughts Part 1

MB

[Strelnikov]

I never said, "Let's round them up, load them on flat bed trucks and take them to camps in the desert." We did that once, to our shame.

I never said, "Go firebomb a Lebanese restaurant." Nabeel had nothing to do with the WTC, and furthermore I don't want the Molotov cocktail to land in my lap while I'm eating lunch there.

I never said, "Damn the Constitution." Since 1914, and especially during the Cold War, liberty has nearly bled to death here in the West. We would do well to remember that centralized power is a greater long-term threat to freedom than terrorism.

Here's what I said: The WTC wasn't an IRA or JDL or Baader-Meinhof operation. Middle East types who lived among us committed this atrocity. Since resources aren't infinite, investigative efforts (including greater scrutiny at security checks) should be focused on likely threats. Profiling is a workable and legitimate tool for doing so. Let's hope that it can be used without trampling too heavily on citizen rights, but ACLU and others like them need to realize that public safety is the paramount responsibility of government.

Strelnikov

[ManInBlack]

OK, here’s the rest of the thoughts from an Afghani-American: (sorry if this is long guys, but this is a complex issue)

We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age". Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it ready.
Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.

Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks.
Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

In Peace,

Tamim Ansary

--------------

End of thoughts by an Afghani-American.

MB

[thenaveltickler]

Deleted because of severe insults.

[MistressMia]

Please keep comments and oppinions civil, mature and intelligent. Any insulting, threats, or potential flaming posts will be removed.

Things posted in this forum are OPPINIONS ONLY. Please do not take member posts personally and refrain from singling other members out.

If a post comes across harsh and insulting or otherwise, guess what... it will be removed. I don't know how else to say this.

Be the bigger person and express yourself in a mature manner always and your post will be around for others to see. Do the opposite and when it is caught, it will be handled appropriately.

I hope we can all manage to get through this and see the bigger picture... thanks for your time.;)

[MTJpub]

Mia

I just want to publicly state that you have my support in this matter.

[qjakal]

By now, Man In Black, I'm sure you're aware that Pakistan has "sold" Afghanistan out for a couple of billion bucks. We have the access we need to get to Afghanistan. However, as you correctly point out, the proper way to do this is with ground troops...or rather, the "traditional" way. Look for something completely novel in the history of the USA, namely us using covert missions with air support as well as an economic embargo. We will NOT repeat the mistakes of the Russians, precisely BECAUSE we've seen the results of using armor and troops in the region, even WITH good supply lines. Accept the inevitable fact that although you ARE correct regarding the countries lack of wealth, it will still be subjected to bombings, for their pyschological effect as well as their press value.....it's unfair but logical. Having said all that, I sincerely hope we can accomplish our objectives without further torment to the population in general. Afghanistan and the US will hopefully be back on better terms with the removal of the Taliban and their parasitical religous pretension. The Northern Alliance will most likely be "our" ground troops in whatever limited role they can/wish to play. Evil days are upon these poor people, but try to remember that the USA has a history of repairing and restoring at least the physical infrastructure of a country we've devasted in warfare. Not a lot of comfort to those who lose their lives because they are surrounded by cowards who use them as shields, but a grim reality nonetheless. I pray the losses on both sides are minimal, and that we will see the day when Afghanistan joins the community of the world again...we can always use another friend. Q

[WallStreet]

Every time I check back into this thread it gets crazier and crazier. It's hard to believe DarkK and NavelTickler are having posts edited and deleted. These are two of the most mild mannered members we have.
--------
Man in Black has a good point about bombs mainly getting the sick and crippled. It's too bad the Afghani government isn't as concerned about those people as Man in Black is. There is no religous excuse for what Bin Laden did and he should be turned over. If the Afghanis were worried about there sick and crippled being bombed they shouldn't have been hosting Bin Laden's Training Camp for terrorists.
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I know that both Navel and DarkK are good dudes and if their posts were off color it's only because we are in a very stressfull time.

[qjakal]

Exactly the reason we need to be brave enough to NOT generalize about a people and their religion. There are millions of god fearing Islamic people throughout the world, who dream many of the same dreams as we...a good life for their children, a warm safe home, a productive job and a community of both spiritual and neighborly people. But, as Strel so accurately pointed out, this IS a time to reexamine the current population that resides in the US, for a variety of reasons, some of which are for the protection of ALL our citizens, regardless of their ethnicity and religous background. This isn't polite or even nice, but it IS necessary, and must be done. The security of our nation is not something we can take lightly any longer. Those with nothing to hide or fear won't be harmed other than having their privacy temporarily invaded...a process we had ALL better get used to if we wish to fly anywhere soon. The emotional rollercoaster we find ourselves on is steep indeed...I swing between rage and depression nearly daily, depending on what view of the City I currently have....as either torn asunder dramatically and cruelly, or a chance for a start of a better understanding of each other in the aftermath of this chaos. While I agree that members of the forum are entitled to their "rage", I also agree that nonproductive stereotyping will only further the cause of the fools who committed this act of barbarism. Don't feed them what they so desperately need guys...starve them for news of our citizens behaving badly and overreacting. I'll be the first to show up for the squad of executioners when they bring them to justice, but don't belittle people who have been our neighbors and productive citizens. DON'T FEED THEM what they want.... be brave enough to sort through the individuals around you. Q

[Darkknight]

(putting my hands up slowly)

I didn't challenge anyone my friend, I responded to a challenge directed at me.

These are trying times, I should have not responded to the post, lack of wisdom. I apologize to any one that took it wrong.
I'm human under my mask.
The true heroes are out there in NYC, PA and Washington.
For them I keep further check of my rage.

Peace,
DK

[Shem the Penman]

I'd just like to point out that Pakistan may not have sold out Afghanistan just yet ... from what I've read, while the Pakistani government is trying to cooperate, the general population is not thrilled at the idea of letting their country be used as a staging ground, and the conservative religious parties are openly threatening a revolution if Pakistan is used as a base to attack another Muslim country. (See, for instance, this link (http://208.251.133.165/html/USUnderAttack/alert16.html).) So I don't think the article ManInBlack posted is completely off base right now.

[qjakal]

Took these from the site you linked us to Shem:


"Most people interviewed on the street said that the vulnerability of the American people is due to Washington's flawed policies towards the Islamic world and developing countries. "

"Disturbed by U.S. policy toward Palestine and its continuing air strikes against Iraq, Amna Sajjad, a student of Islamic University in Islamabad, said the United States itself is a terrorist nation. "Are they not terrorists to have made the Iraqi nation suffer, where innocent civilians, babies and women are dying?" she asked. "Most certainly, the Pakistani nation will not want to help the United States to terrorize already suffering people in Afghanistan who are dying of hunger and disease."

Yes...as I expected...they are being their normal rational selves. We OBVIOUSLY are terrorists. Instead of flattening the entire nation of Iraq, we allowed it to exist as a sovereign country despite its complete defeat. What beasts of ravening acquisition! I feel sure that if the situation were reversed they would do the same for us....yup...REAL sure. Guess what? Every once in a while when evil gets so damn bold that it finally infuriates the world enough, we need to say: SHUT UP AND GET OUT OF THE WAY WHILE WE SAVE BOTH OURSELVES AND YOUR RATIONALIZING BUTTS! I agree that Pakistan is in a hard position, but it's reached the point of I DON'T CARE! And neither does the rest of the NATO Alliance. If they don't want to recognize the reality of the situation, if they insist on blindly assuming that because another nation mouths allegiance to Islam without actually following its guiding principles, then let them stand firm and turn us away.......and then a new reality will be introduced to them. Believe me, if this was Russia of the 70's coming in, they'd be falling all over themselves to help, because they knew the Russians wouldn't put up with or give a crap about their "theories" of what is happening and should happen. We take way too much guff from people who don't know what we actually stand for and against, and it's time to stop pretending that we need their support and help to accomplish our objectives. If they insist on sticking their foot out, it will get stepped on...end of story. I sincerely hope that many of the nations we are currently going to have to inconvenience will be counted among our friends and allies in 20 years, but for the moment....Get out of the way, we have a job to do. I think we will offend some nations in the pursuit of justice for our fallen, and I also think we'll sleep just fine every night despite it... Q