Oh be-jesus!!! its that time of the year again..........

[red indian]

.....St Patricks Day in England. I get totally pissed off with this. English people, born and bred in good old blighty, who spend one day a year pretending to be life long supporters admirers of all things from the emerald isle. I bet you not one of them can tell me when St Georges day is.

Why is it "Trendy" and "pc" to support a foriegn countries national patron saint but not your own? What strange folks us brits are, especially when you consider the thousands of British people who have been murdered by the IRA over the last 30 years. Can you imagine the U.S. ignoring the fourth of july, but going out of their way to celebrate "Bin laden fest"?.....er......no........go figure as you folks say.


p.s. mods. have I been officially "sent to coventry"? or are my threads just getting so boring no one can be bothered to reply?

[Myriads]

Nothing has been done to prevent people from answering your posts if they choose to.

Myriads

[red indian]

......for that ringing endorsement Myriads!!!!

[Limeoutsider]

Well, not to sound mean or anything, but did St George have a good a publiscist as St Patrick? Cuz whoever came up with green beer, that was genius. Seriously, the Irish are famed drinkers, and St Patricks Day gives them an excuse to go get drunk and have a reason to drink (and have drinking buddies), so they probably told everyone under the sun and everyone else looking for an excuse to drink (which is just about everybosy) so its snowballed into one of the Major Holidays

[Lazarus]

April 23rd....

[Neutron]

Let's see the Brits over the years did their damn best to install minority rule in Ireland, they weren't all that hesitant about sending just about any political dissident to Australia, including those they sent on trumped up charges. They had no hesitancy whatsoever in putting down legitmate Irish protest with brutal police state tactics. Yet it's the IRA who are murderers?

My only problem with the Irish is they tend to whine more about the Brits, then to grow the stones to boot their leaching arse off the island.

Tron

[red indian]

......if you are agreeing with me or not tronny, does any of that drivel make our pointless celebration of St Patricks day make more or less sense?

Is this the same Tronny who wants to nuke all terrorists? presumably you meant only when they have killed Americans.

I also presume you find the birmingham pub bombings, Inneskillin, Ohmagh, the deliberate maiming of joyriding teenagers by shooting their knees off, drug dealing, drilling holes in prisoners heads with a black and decker, perfectly acceptable?

The American courts are at present refusing to hand over a group of IRA suspects to the U.K. becuase they have successfully argued that if returned to the UK their "human rights" will not be respected. Which is a bit bloody rich given what the U.S. is doing in quantanomo bay!! which no doubt you support.


For those Americans who dont know "Iniskillen" was an incident were the IRA chose to blow up a crowd of mourners gathered round the cenotaph in Inniskillin on rememberance day.


Tronny....THAT....is what I call murder.

It is 30 years of attrocities of a similar nature that compelle us in the U.K. to give the U.S. as much support as we can post 9/11.What you are appear to be saying Tronny is, if it happens to you its "terrorism" and they should all be Nuked, but if its somebody else its "freedom fighting" and blowing chunks of heavily pregnant women down the middle of Ohmagh high street is a blow for democracy.

[MrMacphisto]

Red Indian... what can I say... your spill at the beginning of this thread is stereotypical Brit one-sidedness... (and I only aim that comment at Brits that fit that stereotype, not the majority of British people who, as far as I can tell, are just as sensible/nonsensible as any other humans) Lemme guess? You're a Tory... or perhaps... a Loyalist. Speaking of that last term... Why is it that the IRA is publicly condemned, but the Loyalists aren't? The Loyalists have done their fair share of killing innocent people just as the IRA has. For those of you not familiar with the history of the conflicts between the IRA and the British government, "Bloody Sunday" will show you just a small example of the kind of anger present between both sides.

In short, I'd say celebrating St. Patrick's Day is a small consolation for the history between the British and the Irish. It's a lighthearted and proud tradition in the U.S., and I would hope the same is true in Britain.

[MrMacphisto]

One last thing... Red... I totally agree that my country has done some things that easily match the history of brutality and atrocity that Britain has also engaged in. Neither America nor Britain nor really any dominant culture in this world can claim innocence from committing extremely vile acts in the pursuit of greed and ignorance. The point is to learn from your mistakes. A few years ago, I would've said we were on the way towards this goal, but now, America has gone back to its meddling with Third World nations. Yet, Britain is in the mix too. As far as Iraq is concerned, you guys are our greatest allies. Some of us thank you for it, while others are against not only our own involvement but yours as well. I'll put it this way; I'm glad that, despite our history of conflicts in the 1700s and early 1800s, we've grown close to our British brothers and sisters, but neither of our countries can really point the finger at each other about issues of morality. I suppose the main difference between the violations of our government and the violations of yours are that the American government prefers to mess with the citizens of other countries, while your government spends more time messing with its own.

In short, I retract any moral implications made toward you or your government, but I will say that St. Patrick's Day is harmless, so why bugger it?

[red indian]

....so, its all sorted out then. Just watch a TV programme about one incident wich took place on one afternoon in 30 years of predominantly IRA terrorism and hey presto! you have it all explained in a nutshell! Brilliant, makes you wonder why i never thought of it myself.

The "bloody sunday" incident is currently the subject of the longest and most expensive inquiry in British legal history. There is much evidence to suggest that the British Army were guilty of murder. This inquiry is being paid for by the British tax payer and is fully supported by the British government in an attempt to discover the truth and to find who is responsible.

No such inquiry is planned for any of the cowardly acts i refer to and no one has been brought to justice for them.

Loyalists are equally condemed for their acts of terror but Americans are unlikely to get anything like a balanced picture of the situation in the UK once is has been through the Irish american propaganda machine.

Why must I be a Tory to be against terrorism? do you have to be a republican to be against acts like 9/11?

[red indian]

.....you make some good points worth considering. Its bloody Tronny who got me wound up! I think he does it on purpose sometimes.

[Haltickling]

Sometimes? :p

[Neutron]

Yes I am sorry. I do agree with your assessment that what the IRA does is murder. I only found it ironic that a Brit would protest after all the underheanded crap they've done to Ireland.

You can't compare it with 911. We weren't occupying any Mid East Territory that I know of whereas Britain has illegally occupied Ireland for ages. So far as I know the US has never done anything outright oppresive in the Middle East, whereas for centuries British policy towarss Ireland has been extremely oppressive, lest we forget, had it not been for WW1 the Brits would have repressed the Easter Rebellion with a Naval bombardment of Irish towns. Sounds like murder to me...

Tron

[MrMacphisto]

A few things Red... I never said that Bloody Sunday is the ultimate and comprehensive source for understanding the conflicts between the Northern Irish and the British. It is simply a good way to start researching the subject. Bloody Sunday gives a relatively accurate context for how events transpired in that period of time. I never suggested that it should be the only thing you research on the topic.

Quite frankly, if you give half a shit about the sanctity of human life or human rights, then the British taxpayer's money involved in the inquiry should be less of a concern to you. If anything, this is an inquiry that should've been done and completed long ago. Bloody Sunday occurred about 30 years ago. Don't you think it's about time that the deaths of dozens of innocent people by the hands of your own government should be investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice? You do remember that, initially, the British military was basically pardoned of all crimes committed in that incident. The media basically covered it up as well.

I think you know the reason why so much effort is being put on the inquiry as well. It's one thing if a terrorist group like the IRA kills innocent people. It's a whole other can of worms if the military does it. The military should be an institution you can trust to protect innocent people and not slaughter them. An inquiry into a terrorism group's acts is no less important, but an inquiry into the military is more urgent. You don't want Bloody Sunday to happen again; if it did, it would guarantee yet another surge in the membership of the IRA.

By the way... Irish Propaganda Machine? There is no Irish Propaganda Machine here, unless you're counting what John Cusack refers to as "the angry, Irish Republican guys." People like Bill O'Reilly are "angry Irish Republicans," but (despite a similar name) they have nothing to do with the Irish Republican Army. If indeed, we have an Irish Propaganda Machine in the U.S., then how come far more movies about the IRA's evils are released in this country than movies coming out about the Loyalists?

Your last point I must concede on... You don't have to be Republican to be against terrorism. In fact, I'd like you to help me get that through the heads of our current government and many of the more militant Republicans in this country. My comment about your possible Tory affiliation is that most Loyalists tend to be Tory, and from what I've gathered, Tories (of all the main political parties in the UK) tend to have the most negative view of Irish people. Granted, I realize this is a broad generalization....

[Neutron]

Who would have cared, Tory, Loyalist. He'll cross to either side at will. That's the great thing about having no convictions or ethics.

I still never figured out what the IRA felt they'd accomplish by assassinating Mountbatten (who wasn't even a true English lord he was a morganic German Prince)

Tron

[MrMacphisto]

Originally posted by Neutron
So far as I know the US has never done anything outright oppresive in the Middle East

Tron... this is the only thing I disagree with you on in your second to last post... The second War with Iraq qualifies as oppressive, and some of our agreements with Saudi Arabia and Israel might also be construed as such.

[Neutron]

Oppressive, when it comes to war or government means you're in it, or started it in order to conquer a country for your own benefit, ANd intend on impinging on that countries ability to govern. At NO time has the US ever said they're in Iraq for the long run. For the most part the Iraqis want to be self governing, and are wiling to change their fom of government BACK TO IT"S HISTORICAL form. In other words, as soon as the Iraqis are capable of self governing AND they're not a danger to us, we'll go our merry way

Britain has always been opposed to Home Rule for Ireland. This is centuries old. They've oppressed the natural ability for the people to govern with armed force and forced the Irish economy to go along with British needs.

As for Isreal... Uh, You're clueless. For one, we were encouraged by the Brits among others to acknowledge the country. We've never told her how to govern herself AND we're probably the #1 reason they haven't gone apeshit all over the Arab nations/

Prior to discussing Oppresion please know what it means when it comes to government and war. Otherwise you sound plain ignorant.

Tron

[red indian]

.....with the foul language squire! no need for it. Tronny and me will often have good knock about debates but we never use abusive language to each other, he gives me plenty to think about sometimes and vice versa (I hope)

My point about "tax payers money" is that the British governement and the british people via their tax money are happy to look in to what happened on that day, it could well prove to be the case that the Army were to blame, control was lost, mistakes were made, some soldiers may have pannicked. The point is we are looking i to it and are prepared to admitt responsibility.

No such burden is to be shouldered by the Republican movement, you wont find "St Gerry of Adams" taking part in an inquiry in to the Birmingham pub bombings, you wont catch him telling you which one of his mates enjoys tying British soldiers up in remote barns and drilling holes in their heads.

The American/Irish propaganda machine is, not suprisingly rather quiet these days, but i can assure you it used to be very vocal and it ran a major fund raising operation called NORAID which has raised millions of dollars for the IRA over many years. Funding for this seems to have dried up somewhat, not suprisingly.


I do not have a negative view of Irish people, I drink with a whole buch of them most nights. My initial critisism was of the English, who have no interest (believe me) absolutley NO interest in any kind of celebration of their own country or national flag waving holiday such as the Fourth of July. It just does not happen, but then we stagger about in stupid hats drinking guiness and going to bogus irish theme bars which no self respecting Irishman would be seen dead in!

There are of course reasons why people committ dreadfull acts of terror,and the route causes have to be looked at, and solved if at all possible. But this in itself is no reason to excuse the slaughter of innocent people at prayer at the cenotaph in Northern Ireland or going about their business in the world trade towers.


I recall Tronny dismissing out of hand any suggestion that Bin laden and al qeida may have some sort of logic, reason or greivence that would explain their actions. His answer was that "they should all be nuked". However he feels able to dredge up all kinds of antique historical events to justify acts of terror in the UK. Is this the view of many US citzens or is it just dear old Tronny?

[MrMacphisto]

I suppose I know you well enough Tron that you'll pick a fight with anyone, but I'm happily in possession of a much greater intellect than you could probably contend with... Shall we determine this fair and square?

First things first... who's the ignorant one, if you can't even spell oppreSSion? That's right, 2 letters, not one.

Second, Iraq... Oppression is generally a term that defines any kind of unwarranted attacks on a person or group of people. The second War with Iraq fits this quite nicely in that we attacked before they did. The first time around we had a justification for attacking Iraq because they were invading Kuwait at the time. The second time around, it had been about a decade without any major incidents of them attacking anyone. There was a rather uneasy period of us flying planes over them and them firing at us, but it wasn't an official war (and we were blowing the shit out of their installations anyway). So, unless you want to delve into semantics, you should see my point on this one by now.

Israel... Pardon me, but I have to say that you're clueless in that you didn't get the side of my point. I wasn't saying we were oppressing Israel; I was implying quite the opposite. I mentioned Israel because we have been supporting Israel's oppressive behavior towards the Palestinians. Obviously, the Palestinians aren't innocent either, but Palestinians aren't the ones occupying land that isn't theirs. Bush, in his typically idiotic way, verbally supported the actions of Israel when they recently attacked Syria. When you support a nation that has a long history of oppressing its neighbors, I'd say that's about as bad as doing the oppression yourself.

[MrMacphisto]

sadly... "Tronny's" infantile behavior is characteristic of many Americans. Usually, the "kill 'em all" mentality is reserved for rednecks and/or ex-military blokes that have either gone off the deep end or have simply lost touch. To his credit, I would assume that Tron fits neither of those descriptions, so the question remains: Why does he fly off of the handle so easy with these topics? I'm not sure what the answer is, but let's hope his cynicism can be refined into a more biting wit and less of a prickish self-righteousness.

[JoBelle]

Happy St. Partrick's Day you, Prat!

You're my favorite Irishman, Red! I won't tell anyone about that shrine you have in your hall. :p We know you were pissed up singing Oh Danny Boy! Admit it! You're green to the bone!! C'mon outta the closet, babe!

As far as the rest...:zzzzz: Same shit, different day.
*kisskiss*
Jo

[qjakal]

From another who doesn't comprehend the entire need for these "holidays"....

Consider this a ringing endorsement, at least upon this particular topic, red.

Q

[theshire]

Too many people in this country love to hate England or Britain as a whole - and most of them love the French. That kinda tells you what sort of people they are.

And do you find this sort of thing in the U.S? No, they're all PROUD to be American. Most of us seem to have been poisoned by Tony's Cronies and their policies (or lies).

St. Patrick's Day? I for one don't celebrate it. What sane Englishman would? To me, it's a fine signifier of things to come for England. And I don't like the signs.

[MrMacphisto]

It's kind of ironic that a person by the name of "theshire" would be against St. Patrick's Day. I mean, aren't the Hobbits kind of a metaphor for the Irish? Maybe they're more of a metaphor for the Scottish, who knows? Whatever the case, it is just a holiday, and getting upset over it is like acting as if any other holiday should be eliminated. I mean, with as few reasons to celebrate as the modern working world has, why blast any chance to just kick back and get drunk? Did you know that many Third World countries, like China, have a ton of more holidays than most First World nations? Heck, America has even fewer "official" holidays than Europe. I suppose with relatively less holidays than most other First World nations, America is able to focus more on the few we recognize.

I have to say... Your post confused me, theshire. You complained how people love to hate England, but then you said people are getting poisoned by Tony's Cronies and their lies. Ok, so... You love your country, but you don't love your government, right? If that's what you meant, I guess that makes sense. A lot of Americans feel the same way about their country. That's where the pride thing comes in, but I and many others have figured out that nationalism is the root of many problems. I suppose hating a country has the same negative effect. History would seem to support the ideas that regarding yourself as simply an individual and judging others as individuals are more effective ways to associate with people. Of course, I make the same mistake of judging people by their location as well (like I did about Tennessee in another thread, which I now take back).

[red indian]

.....what shire means is that our present government got in to power on a very anti-nationalistic ticket. Blair is on record deploring old fashioned patriotism and used to spend a lot of time apologising for Britain and all it has stood for.

In its place we had "cool britainia" what ever that was supposed to be. Basically, in practical terms it seems to have meant constantly apologising to every one about every thing that Britain has done as a nation since Boadacia.

This government has encouraged a whole generation to be ashamed of its entire history, good or bad, and that under this government, under Tony Blair we have made a fresh, squeaky clean start in the world. He even had the audacity to call Britain "a young country" in one of his apologetic, lick spittaling speeches!!! how does he work that out when he has recently appointed a new lord Chancellor who,s office can be traced back over a thousand years!!!

I doubt even the most rabid Democrat would dare make such anti american speeches and hope to get elected.

Mac you make a good point about the virtues or vices of strong, overt nationalism. It can clearly be a VERY bad thing if allowed to degenerate in to an irrational belief in your own countries god given superiority over all others and an inevitably complimenting hatred of all other nations.

I for one (as many on here already know) have been starting the fight back against the Blairite "guilt fest" and i am glad to have you on board the good ship Britiania Mr shire!!

[theshire]

I have to say... Your post confused me, theshire. You complained how people love to hate England, but then you said people are getting poisoned by Tony's Cronies and their lies. Ok, so... You love your country, but you don't love your government, right? If that's what you meant, I guess that makes sense.

Yes that is what I meant. I am proud to be British, and I think New Labour are completely spoiling it. Most people these days (especially people of my own age) seem rather of the opinion that Britian sucks, and that it would be much better if we were all French. Some of them, even as big football (soccer) fans as they are, don't really care how the national team fare, and are more concerned with the club they support. It didn't even affect them when England won the Rugby World Cup! How much more unsupportive can you get?

As for the hobbits being a symbol for Ireland, I tend to disagree; I think they represent the West Country ("'Oo 'ar, Mr. Frodo," :D )

And red, thanx for inviting me on board your ship. When's dinner? ;)

[MrMacphisto]

I suppose guilt is just about as unproductive as pride... I can see how acknowledging the crimes of the past is important, but at the same time, no one alive in Britain can be held responsible for the actions of Britain during its imperial days. I think an interesting example of how responsibility and guilt are relevant is Bloody Sunday. If I'm not mistaken, the people most responsible for the slaying of innocent people during that day are still around, so they must be held accountable. The same goes for IRA and Loyalist members that have committed terrorist acts in the last few decades.

Where guilt is irrelevant is with events long past. The descendants of people who committed crimes long ago can't be held responsible for those acts. An American equivalent to this guilt thing you mentioned, Red, is slave reparations. It's ridiculous for anyone to request "40 acres and a mule" these days, because no black person still living can say they were a slave, and no white person still alive was a slaveowner. So yeah, I agree that running on an anti-nationalistic ticket is just as silly as running on a nationalistic one, if the reasons for the guilt are so long past that no one still alive is responsible. There are, however, plenty of cases where the people still are alive. For example, corporate reparations for slave labor during the Holocaust are relevant because many victims are still around and the companies are still around. Many of the same executives are still around as well. Another example is how Australia massacred the Aborigines. Some of the mistreatment (and sometimes even murder) of the Aborigines occurred as recently as the 1970s. Some would even say that Aborigines are still treated like second class citizens in Australia. Whatever the case, the guilt that some Australians have is very relevant given the relatively recent nature of the crimes committed.

[BOFH666]

While I'm sorry to say it I don't think you can lay the blame for the current lack of national pride upon a feeling of shame in our history engineered by the government. Rather I believe it comes from the current state of the country as a whole, with a government that clearly wants above all else to hang on to power rather than serve the needs, and on some occasions, the will of the people. With democratically elected politicians being forced to toe the party line in very public settings regardless of their own opinions (just look at the recent Tuition Fees vote for a good example), failing public services, and the general feeling that Britain is becoming less and less of an independant voice in world politics it's no surprise that such feelings of national pride are in short supply. Add in an ever more progressive move towards corporate needs dominating the needs of the individual, and as a direct result, working environments that offer very little enjoyment or job satisfaction, and the picture gets ever bleaker.

As for why “most of them love the French”, well, I haven't heard that specific view myself I can certainly understand it as, based on recent events, the French have been the voice of reason and restraint. Now before anyone starts, that's ignoring all the behind the scenes deals and I'm not saying that those decisions were made on purely moral and ethical grounds, just that to the general public it is easy to see why such a view could be taken.

Personally I think it a very positive sign when people DON'T succumb to blind patriotism. By all means be proud of your country though not simply because someone says you SHOULD, but because you can look at what your country does and feel that morally and ethically it's in the right and that you can be proud of its achievements not just for the citizens of that country but for all those it affects. Sadly, based on those criteria I see little reason to fly the Union Jack at the moment.

Oh, and on the Rugby World Cup win, considering Rugby really doesn't have a huge following in England I thought the response was pretty damn good. If it had been the football world cup it would have been a different story. Same thing if the Welsh won the Rugby world cup, the entire country would be celebrating whereas if we won the football... actually, if we won the football we'd be trying to figure out when we got to bizzaro-world and why no-one else turned up to the competition, but you get the point.

[Knox The Hatter]

Getting back to Red's original statement:
St. Patty's Day here at one time meant a wonderful parade in New York...many of the marchers and revelers would have a bit too much of the spirits, you see, and get in fights in the street and down in the Subway. Really bad back in the 80s and early 90s. Today, it's now a campaign by the beer companies to get the product sold and the merchandise moved. Which is why they're trying to foist Cinco De Mayo on us as well...you have idiots walking around thinking, hey, another opportunity got get sloshed, and what the fuck's 'Cinco De Mayo' anyway, they ask! :D
Most of all, in New York's heritage, it was an opportunity for emigres from that sad island to get together for warmth after being evicted from their own land. St. Patrick's Day was always a lot bigger in New York than even Ireland...

[red indian]

.......the Rams beat the red dogs today four goals to two. We are still in the relegation zone but now only one point separates us from the Forest shite.

I must say I felt quite nostalgic at the match today, as I waited in traffic to get to the game, a massive fight broke out in front of my car in the middle of the road. Within seconds my car was surrounded by god knows how many cop cars with loads of scuffers bursting out of them, armed with fancy new extendable batons and police dogs with enormous gnashing teeth.

This is what I call proper British sport, all hell breaking loose before a ball is even kicked!! its as much a part of our national identity as bowler hats, cups of tea, and her Majesty the Queen.

Bloody marvelous!! and we beat the red dogs at home as well, what more do you want from a saturday afternoon? apart from loads of trouble in town all night caused by pissed off Forest fans who could not get home because the football special was cancelled becuase the roof blew off the train station!!! serves the bastards right if you ask me!!!

Just to help any Americans who are not up to speed, I am talking about the REAL Rams, the ORIGINAL Rams who can trace the origins of their club back over three centuries, not these limp wristed faggots who mince around in body armour and burst in to tears if they get a chip on their nail varnish.

Sing the following to the tune of Rod Stewarts "Sailing" :-

"We are Derby...we are Derby.....super Derby....super Rams.........we are Derby.....super Derby.....super Derby.....super Rams" (continue untill final whistle)

Good lord!!! all this, and Harmison is still putting the wind up the windies!!! proper Bo! ah tell thee!!!

[Knox The Hatter]

Red makes me laugh out loud. He's priceless.

[red indian]

......glad to be of service.

[theshire]

You do know you're going down, right? 22nd in the League. Unlike the mighty Gills who beat Rotheram 2-0 at the weekend. At least I get to see them in the same division next year. Good thing I renewed my season ticket. ;)

[red indian]

.....its a dirty job, someone has to do it. Thinking positively, at least my club has an illustrious and glamourous past to look back on. Where as Gillingham fans look behind them and see what? (other than your own arseholes!!!)

Ok cool it mods, no harm done. No need for terse E mails, its just the way we footy fans converse ok?......chill.

[theshire]

You're not famous...

You're not famous...

You're not famous anymore!

YOU'RE NOT FAMOUS ANYMORE! :D

FYI red - The Gills still hold the record in English football for improving on last season's League position every year: 12 times in a row! We've had so many injuries this season, though, that it ain't likely to happen this time. But next year, with Patrick Agyemang (even if he is the laziest player in the world), and a fuller squad, we'll do much better.

[red indian]

.....I,m talking about TROPHIES laddy!!! such as two league titles and european football, not records for incremental improvements in cronic mediocrity!!!!.....dear oh dear, why do i bother??

We got draw against the Blades away tonight so, we are looking to drag you in to the shite squire!!!!

[theshire]

I could never claim Gills to be the best team in the country, or even in the Division - 'cos quite franky, they're not. But we have a reputation for being a stubborn, hard-working side with great team spirit. Good old fashioned values, not your fancy lumps of metal which you won before there was any good competition around. :D

I think we have great potential as a big club in, say, 25 years time. We get average gates of about 8000 to 9000 every week, but in the promotion season, 50,000 Gills fans turned up at Wembley for the playoff final - a proper Premiership attendance! Derby will never get that many fans...