Help needed understanding American Politics

[BOFH666]

I would like to ask for some help to try and understand an issue that I’ve been grappling with for years. I’ve considered posting this question before but have never been able to think how to phrase it until now. A friend of a friend sent me something this morning that summed it up perfectly and I’ve reproduced it here:

Accepting what is told to us
Is the norm for today
Believing that we're always right-
Is that really the best way?
We go around sporting
the colors red, white and blue-
And although we claim that they mean freedom
Do America's actions prove that true?
How do we know whether or not
We're on the wrong side or the right?
Is it by trusting what our leaders say
Or by our own untainted sight?


Basically, ever since 9/11 I’ve become more and more interested in politics in general and American politics specifically, mainly as they have such an impact on the rest of the world. In my reading of news, opinion pieces and general discussion forums such as this I keep coming across one attitude that I simply can’t understand:

Blind Patriotism (which is the title of the above poem).

I don’t intend this as criticism, and it would be appreciated if we could all refrain from turning this into a flame war. All I’m after is a calm, measured and logical explanation as to why such a large number of people react with such anger to anything said against the current government of the USA, relying on that anger and vitriol to prove their point rather than reason and evidence. This wasn’t, as far as I can see, a major problem during the Clinton administration (though as I don’t live in the USA I may be very wrong about that) but now… well, let me give a couple of examples:

The Dixie Chicks:

From checking transcripts Natalie Maines said “"Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas." to a London audience. The reaction in America was incredible to what is, as far as I can see, a perfectly reasonable expression of her own opinions which I believe is a right guaranteed in the American constitution. She did not threaten the man or the position, she did not claim to be supporting terrorists and didn’t suddenly grow horns and a tail. Yet I have seen reactions along the lines of “she should be banned from singing” all the way up to “they should all be shot as traitors”. Why? Why the massive reaction to such a simple statement?

Iraq:

I was reading a story today on, of all places, Slashdot which dealt with American politics and showed opinions that, to summarise, said “our military forces are proud to be liberating 25 million people in Iraq”. This is by no means a rare opinion. Yet, while no-one’s debating there’s merit in removing Saddam from a human rights perspective, 'liberating' Iraq was NEVER given as the main reason for going to war, certainly not to the public and as far as I'm aware, not to the military. Yet somehow the months of statements from the White House before and during the war about “Weapons Of Mass Destruction” and “Terrorist Links To Al-Qaeda” being the primary reasons for the conflict have been forgotten in favour of attacking anyone who questions whether or not attacking Iraq was the right thing to do.

Freedom Fries:

This is the one I really don't understand. The French say “let's give the weapons inspectors the time they need”, a view that turned out to be absolutely accurate, and suddenly they are seen as “opposing freedom”. Leaving aside how this looks to the rest of the world (I rather suspect that even Tony Blair put his head in his hands when he heard that “French” was now a forbidden word in the USA), I would have thought the French, more than any other nation on earth, would have been synonymous with Freedom in the USA. After all, if it hadn't been for the French the War of Independence would (by most commonly accepted academic views) have turned out very differently. Yet suddenly they're being vilified on, in some cases, the same level as Hitler.


As I said, this isn't intended as an affront, slight, insult, attack or knock on the USA or the people that hold these views. I just want to try and understand why you hold those particular views and, perhaps more importantly, why there is this tendency to dip into anger and attack anyone who presents an opposing view rather than engage in civilized debate.

Thanks for your time and help.

Steve.

[ticklishbbw]

I can't offer you an answer, because I have some of the same questions. As someone who opposes almost everything our current administration has done, I've been called "Un-American" because I have my own opinion and don't blindly follow the leader. Funny, I thought this country was founded on the principles of freedom- of choice, and expression. I guess it only applies when you follow the crowd.

I'm curious to see what kind of responses you get. Hopefully you'll receive some insightful ones, and not just flames!

tbbw

[ShadowTklr]

Well, the question you're asking has nothing to do with American politics, and everything to do with the hopelessly romantic notion of an America that never existed, but is often portrayed as the backbone of who Americans really are.

This is where the idealized version of America comes from. These images emblazened in our collective conscience reverberate with emotion and define the very core of America. Read on, and daydream with longing about the paradise that is America.

America is tree-lined streets with children laughing and playing in the yards, old folks taking a leisurely afternoon stroll, and the paperboy never missing the porch as he throws the daily newspaper from his moving bicycle.

America is neighbors having a barbecue, and no one has a cross word to say about anyone; Everyone is friendly and people smile and give you a friendly slap on the back as they meet you.

America is a Saturday matinee and a malted at the corner ice cream parlour. When we take our girls out, we always have them home on time, and treat them with respect. A kiss on the cheek at the end of the date is all American guys need to make them kick their heels on the way back to the car.


America is courting the one true love whom you'll marry and grow old with. Its rolling up your shirt sleeves and not being afraid to get dirty; where every honest man can find work and loves what he does.

Children are always respectful of their elders in America, and the wisdom passed on by seniors is looked upon with both awe and reverance.

Americans are fair handed people who always stand up for the little guy. If there's one thing we can't tolerate, its a bully. Americans always reach out a helping hand to a neighbor in need. We don't have to know him to help, because that's what Americans do.
Money is great, but human kindness is worth so much more than gold, and we know this...why? Because we're Americans.

America is a strong defense. We don't start fights, but we sure can scrap when the going gets tough.

Amercia is church on sunday, dressed in your best suit. God loves America because we embody all the things that he intended for the rest of the world. When God writes his memoirs, America will be his greateset chapter.

America is pride in the things we manufacture. Workmanship and quality are the staples of American ingenuity, and by God, nobody builds em' like us!

America is apple pie, parades, and lemonade under a tree by the brook on a hot summer day.

As Americans, we're quick to take up the fight to support our great land. To disagree with us is to assault the very fabric of our blessed nation. Freedom fries you say? Damn straight. Those lousy French bastards couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack and they have the balls to disagree with us?

This is MY America, and you'd damn well better like it, because only commies, pinkos and facists say otherwise.

[Krokus]

Basically, the United States and it's Presidential Administration is full of shit. What else is new? I am an American by the way. It just sickens me how this country has gone down the crapper the last 8 or so years. The United States is fully prepared to do whatever....and I mean WHATEVER it takes to ensure that it is the world empire for as long as possible. It doesn't matter if it is at other peoples expense....or even at the expense of americans....it's just sad.

[tklr5150]

As if I really didn't understand
That I was just another part of the plan
I went on looking for the promise, believing in the Motherland

From the comfort of a dreamer's head
And the safety of my own bed
I went on speaking of the future while other people fought and bled

The kid I was when I first left home
Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own
But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet when the truth was known

I have prayed For America
I was made For America
It's in my blood and in my bones
By the dawn's early light
By all I know is right
We're going to reap what we have sown

As if freedom was a question of might
As if loyalty was black and white
You hear people say it all the time:
"My country, wrong or right"
I want to know what that's got to do
With what it takes to find out what's true
With everyone from the President on down trying to keep it from you

The thing I wonder about the dads and moms
Who send their sons to the Vietnams
Will they really think their way of life has been protected when the next war comes?

I have prayed For America
I was made For America
Her shining dream plays in my mind
By the rocket's red glare
A generation's blank stare
We'd better wake Her up this time

The kid I was when I first left home
Was looking for his freedom and a life of his own
But the freedom that he found wasn't quite as sweet when the truth was known

I have prayed For America
I was made For America
I can't let go till She's come 'round
Until the land of the free
Is awake and can see
And until Her conscience has been found

-Jackson Browne

[BOFH666]

Damn, sorry for the HUGE delay in replying.

Thanks for the replys from all of you, ShadowTklr's in particular I think gave a pretty good insight into one reason why folks feel as they do, and I wish I'd phrased the original question slightly differently now.

Still, disapointing that there's no-one trying to provide the other side of the story. As I said, really don't want this to devolve into a flame war, so I'd ask those that I know sit on the other side of a lot of these issues to contribute and, in turn, for those that disagree with them to holster the blame throwers, fair?

Steve.

[qjakal]

I think you're not seeing a lot of responses because this ground has been covered in many other threads, and the discussion (using the term quite loosely) has turned ugly constantly.

Do you think statments such as:

"We're *ashamed* the president is from Texas"

actually accomplish something, or convey meaning and/or solutions? These are entertainers making millions of dollars a year and living a lifestyle most people will never attain. If they really have issues, let them apply some of their personal resources towards what they feel are problems rather than taking verbal cheapshots disguised as opinions. Why not phrase it as something like:

" We're deeply disappointed in the actions our country has taken lately under this administration, and we intend to work towards change utilizing a few million dollars and our access to media outlets throughout the world...."

I know I'd be more impressed with that approach...

Conversely, to reject everything ANY administration does with a blanket "I disagree with everything Bush does/says/stands for/votes for.." also seems like shotgun thinking. No administration will ever please everyone, because there's hundreds of issues and areas of interest. Obviously many here feel that this administration has failed badly in both foreign policy and internal economic recovery among other items. Education issues have also surfaced, as well as privacy et al and dozens of others. I'd say it's par for the course, having seen more administrations than most on the board. People bitched about Eisenhower, and screamed about Kennedy while he was alive, on nearly this many fronts.

I think the problem is that the balance of power in the world has gone to hell in a handbasket without the presence of the USSR. The system of checks and balnces that pervaded the previous 50 years is gone, and we're watching the struggle for achievement of a new form of world balance.

9-11 was a serious wound, and the response to it has been even more serious, perhaps past rational at times. We can't afford to ignore terrorism at this point in time, and we have no effective methods of isolating it to combat it without massive fallout to civilians, both individuals and nations.

Quite a puzzle.

Q

[BOFH666]

I think you're not seeing a lot of responses because this ground has been covered in many other threads, and the discussion (using the term quite loosely) has turned ugly constantly.


And that's exactly why I asked the question. Again, remember I'm based in the UK but by and large we don't see that reaction to our own politics. While I won't for one moment claim discussions on politics remain even-handed, impartial and logical it's very rare to see such... such anger and agression in a 'debate' and I just can't understand where it comes from.


Do you think statments such as:

"We're *ashamed* the president is from Texas"

actually accomplish something, or convey meaning and/or solutions?


No, of course not, but I DO believe it's their right to say such a thing, to express their opinions. Would I like to see all entertainers / celebrities act as you described. Yes, absolutely. but I see no reason to hate someone for voicing that opinion.

On the subject of blanket "I hate bush" statements I agree totally with what you're saying, to disagree with ANY issue just becuase you do not support the person voicing that issue seems ridiculous. Yet... it has to be said that such blanket statements are applied from BOTH sides and, in my recent experience at least, TEND (repeat, TEND) to come more from the right than the left of the political spectrum.


9-11 was a serious wound, and the response to it has been even more serious, perhaps past rational at times. We can't afford to ignore terrorism at this point in time, and we have no effective methods of isolating it to combat it without massive fallout to civilians, both individuals and nations.

Quite a puzzle.


So, and I know this sounds cold-hearted, why worry about it? Let me put this another way: I live in London, I work somewhere that's been bomb-damged and flooded before now, and there have been I believe at least three bombs set off within a five mile radius of my home. I travel on the tube every so often and go to the theatre when finances permit. I've grown up in a country where the spectre of the IRA and others was never far away but I sure as hell don't step out of my door and think "Hmmm, I wonder if I'm going to be killed by a terrorist today?"

Instead I am more likely to be thinking "Hmmm, I wonder if this is the day someone rams my car at sixty miles an hour while I try and pull out of my driveway". I just simply do not understand WHY people are so terrified of dying in a terrorist attack. If the government does its job, it should be able to detect and stop an attack before it happens. If it doesn't, and I die in such an attack the last thing I would want to happen is for innocent people to be killed in retaliation. Kill those responsible? Yes, though I'd rather they were brought to trial, but civilian casualties in retaliation is, to my mind, unacceptable. If it were a loved one that died (and I had family in New York on 9/11 who visited the twin towers the day before so I've thought about this many times over the past few years)... I'd mourn and try to pick up my life again when I could but my feelings would remain the same. But I WILL NOT let terrorists rule my life, I will not live in fear at the thought of a possible attack and if one occurs then all I hope and pray for is that if it's my time then I can come close to the true heroism exhibited by the members of the emergency services that lost their lives on 9/11. Give me that, let me give my life saving others and I will go out happy.

[Knox The Hatter]

A great thread...
Someone at work posted some internet diatribe by some guy down in Tampa, some emotional, angry stuff. In it, he complains about many things, but what really caught my eye was the complaint that the immigrants coming into our country are diluting our values and our culture.
This is one of the oldest libels in the book. It was voiced extensively back in the mid nineteenth century as a complaint about the Irish (with their 'papist', wet ways), and later about the Italians (with THEIR 'papist' ways and their old world customs) and the Jews (where do you start?) and down the line with the Puerto Ricans streaming non-stop into New York with no immigration quotas to stop them, and Jesus Christ, guess who moved into that house down the block and before you know it, they're gonna overrun us and what'll happen to White Culture?
There's this attitude that we're the only country in the world receiving immigrants. Shit, there's this attitude that we're THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD! Now, how do you handle that? How do you change that way of thinking?
Seems when I see concern about the things afflicting our society, all you have to do is dig a little, and see A) bigotry B) paranoia, and C) the xenophobia that results from both. The current administration feeds off of this. Without it, they wouldn't be in charge right now.

[ticklebutton]

Originally posted by BOFH666
Thanks for the replys from all of you, ShadowTklr's in particular I think gave a pretty good insight into one reason why folks feel as they do...
It's one view of Americans; the man Knox describes is another - there are so many more that we are really a jigsaw puzzle.

It's a funny paradox that the diversity anong us that makes life interesting is the same thing that creates so many challenges.

Think of the U.S. as a macrocosm of an imaginary family:

There's the patriarch who is perplexed & angry because of events that he can't control;

the mother who is so worried about her kid's safety;

the thoughtful youngster who sees past the posturing and slogans;

the old uncle who hates to see changes;

the sensitive child who is distressed because nature is dying from industry toxins;

the rebellious one who rants & raves;

the apathetic one who looks the other way;

the activist who tirelessly struggles for change;

I'm sure there are combinations, and some I've missed entirely - but you get the picture.

Button :bubble: