• The TMF is sponsored by Clips4sale - By supporting them, you're supporting us.
  • >>> If you cannot get into your account email me at [email protected] <<<
    Don't forget to include your username

The TMF is sponsored by:

Clips4Sale Banner

Excerpts of article with additional perspective

MN Tikl

TMF Poster
Joined
Apr 25, 2001
Messages
108
Points
0
As we prepare to go to war with terrorists (aka radical Islaamic fundamentalists), we need to move forward with our eyes open. That means trying to understand as much as we can about our enemy. This article is helpful in that respect. Make no mistake about my point of view: the monsters who perpetrated this disgusting and vicious act must be struck down for what they've done. But we also need to do something about the American public's ignorance of the rest of the world.

The full article can be found at:

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/09/25/arabs_media/index.html



The media's Islamic blind spot
News reports are obsessing on how the terrorist attacks happened, but not why.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert

Sept. 25, 2001 | Islamic and Middle Eastern experts who have spent their careers attempting to educate Americans braced for the worst in the aftermath of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. They feared an immediate backlash in the press. Americans have historically expressed low regard for Islam, given the violent political struggles it's been associated with, and the press has often catered to public ignorance and distaste.

* * *

The bad news, according to . . . experts, is that the mainstream American press has largely been ignoring what many experts see as the root cause fueling Islamic terrorism: America's own foreign policy. Even as media executives are publicly defending on-camera displays of flags and patriotic slogans, insisting that these fits of patriotic fervor don't affect actual news coverage, skeptics are charging that the press has so far been studious in avoiding serious examination of past American policy failures, and in questioning Bush's rhetoric.

For instance, many in the Middle Eastern studies field were stunned when Bush used, without irony, the word "crusade" to describe America's new battle with mostly Muslim terrorists. Or when he explained, in a statement essentially unchallenged by the press, that attackers struck the World Trade Center "because they can't stand freedom."

Rather than reflect steadfast resolve, scholars suggest such utterances simply telegraph an ignorance about the Islamic world and its history.

When you say, 'They can't stand freedom,' you have to put a couple of phrases on the end of that," notes Voll at Georgetown: "They can't stand freedom in the United State while the U.S. government provides muscle for suppressing freedoms around the world, and specifically in the Middle East. People there are convinced citizens in the United States have freedoms others don't have, [and] that the United States is also the chief supporter of suppressing democracy."

Can't stand freedom? "That's bullshit," says Walter Denny, professor of art history and Middle Eastern studies at the University of Massachusetts. "In a national crisis people always try to frame a struggle using their own ax to grind."

Despite the disturbing silence from the press, Denny says, "The most important question we should be asking ourselves is 'Why do you think they hate us so much?' And if you look at our foreign policy that question is not too difficult to answer."

The key grievance, he says, is hypocrisy.

Even if it were possible to set aside the specific Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which has been inflaming passions for half a century, Denny notes that throughout the Middle East the United States time and again has sided with authoritarian regimes in Morocco, Egypt, Turkey, Algeria, Jordan and elsewhere. These are governments that routinely curtail basic rights, such as freedom of the press, for their Muslim citizens. So rather than despising freedom, many Muslims despise America for standing in the way of their own freedom.

"We [the United States] don't trust democracy there. We believe stability is better than democracy. But it's a false kind of stability," notes Denny. "We want to believe in shahs and kings who like us very much. We want to believe they're popular in their own countries. But the American capability for self-delusion is so extreme we put all our money on the Shah of Iran when that horse was dead at the starting gate."

Such views, widely shared by Middle Eastern experts, have been kept well hid during the last two weeks by media outlets, either relegated to the foreign news hole in newspapers, or all but ignored by cable's 24-hour television news coverage.

"People are looking for who is responsible and they want to lash out," says Ann Betteridge, executive director of the Middle Eastern Studies Association at the University of Arizona. "But I'd like to think the question of why is the next step along the way. But I fear it may not be."

Instead, nearly all attention has been focused on how, rather than why. At first, the question was, how was the attack pieced together logistically? Later, following a few spasms of discussion about Islam and the Middle East in the days following the attack, the press focus shifted to military maneuvers. But why did it happen in the first place?

"Whoever did this horrendous act must have hated us a lot. But nobody questions our foreign policy, so the United States people don't know why [so many Muslims] are angry," says Haddad at Georgetown. "Instead we're told it's just hatred, and I blame the press for that."

Haddad, suggesting that press failure stems from more than simple ignorance, says radio and television producers often call her for an interview request, conduct a preliminary Q&A to hear what she would say and then quietly withdraw the invitation.

"The press censors what they don't want to hear," she insists. "There is no question in my mind. I don't care and I'm not angry about it. If people want to know what those in the Arab world are thinking, I'll tell them."

CBS News anchor Dan Rather offered a glimpse into what some prominent journalists were thinking when he appeared on "The Late Show with David Letterman" last week. There, he insisted that Middle Eastern anger stems from the fact that people there "see themselves as the world's losers. They'd never admit that. They see us, we have everything. We win everything. They see themselves and think, we should be a great people but we're not. It drives them batty. They hate us for who and what we are."

"That," says Betteridge, "is totally off the wall." (Perhaps even more remarkable, Rather also hyped a wild rumor to Letterman's national television audience -- "I don't know this for a fact" -- alleging that hijack sympathizers who knew about plans for the World Trade Center attack climbed onto rooftops in New Jersey to cheer the strike as it happened.)

Even worse, when some media outlets have actually succeeded in incorporating Muslim perspectives in their coverage, they've been quickly criticized. Immediately following President Bush's address to the nation Thursday night, ABC's Peter Jennings sought reaction from Imam Yahya Hendi, Muslim chaplain at Georgetown University. Writing in the Washington Post the next day, television critic Tom Shales condemned ABC's Q&A with the chaplain as "a bizarre choice journalistically."
 
Counterpoint

The Salon article you mention is another of those that blame America for everything, including a murderous assault on our citizens. I don't buy it. We could equally say that the Nazis had an understandable grievance and were simply acting on it.

I've read the Koran and made an effort to study Islam. Nowhere in the Koran are the Faithful told to murder the innocent. Nowhere in the Koran is hatred of Christians or Jews preached. Those things are perversions of Islam, no less than "Christian Identity" (a Klan spinoff) is a perversion of Christianity.

We have to fight this war on several fronts:
(1) We're at war. We should show those at home who would give aid and comfort to our enemies the error of their ways.
(2) It's nice to have allies, but we should make it known that we will act alone if necessary, and that we will be the sole judge of necessity.
(3) Every nation in the Middle East should be given a choice - join us or suffer the consequences. Our supposed Islamic "friends" tolerate virulent anti-Americanism. They need to suppress it.
(4) The Voice of America gives equal time to our enemies. They would have given equal time to Hitler. Their Middle East programming needs to be run by veterans of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, who always knew whose side they were on.
(5) It isn't enough for Islamic clerics and Islamic Americans to deplore the attack on the WTC. The clerics should denounce terrorism as un-Islamic, repeatedly, in no uncertain terms. Our fellow citizens should make a point of looking for terrorists and their sympathizers who live among us, and report them to the authorities. There is some evidence that there were people unconnected to the terrorists who knew in advance about the WTC attack, but said nothing. That's intolerable if true.
(6) Those who have declared themselves our enemies should be given a taste of what that means. Guilt or innocence in the WTC attack isn't an issue. Exterminate Bin Laden and his followers. Exterminate the Hezbollah bastards who bombed our embassy and killed over 200 US Marines in Lebanon 15 years ago. Find their money and confiscate it. Root Saddam out - finish the job this time. Don't stop until there is no organization intact that could attack us, and destroy any government that would shelter or aid them.

We can't make our enemies love us, so let's make them fear us. Genghis Khan managed it with swords and archery - we can do lots better. For a thousand years, let mothers frighten children with what we've done.

Strelnikov
 
Leave it to Strel to have the well-thought-out, carefully considered opinion on this issue.

Since I'm basically a liberal, people like Strel and I will someday go back to debating the fine points of things like, say, environmentalism. But we'll do that LATER...after the war is over and our nation's enemies are defeated. Right now, it's very important to stick together.

Remember...I don't care how much you hate a particular nation for its policies; you don't wake up one morning with the resolution in mind to fly an airplane full of innocent people, including 2-year-old children, into a building full of innocent people. You don't do it. You just DON'T. It doesn't matter what your grievances are, it's just plain and stark raving simple WRONG, and nothing you can say or do is ever going to make it not be wrong. It's an act of war, as blatant as an act of war can be. And if you start a war, you don't then try to initiate a debate about human rights. If you start a war, you reap the whirlwind...so if you don't want the whirlwind, you don't start a war.
 
I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on the Salon article, Strel. I don't think that the article blames America for the murderous assault. Instead, it points out that most Americans have a blatant misconception as to *why* the terrorists felt justified in carrying it out. What's worse than our ignorance, the article continues, is that most media outlets are intentionally feeding Americans this misinformation.

Now, if you're arguing that we shouldn't *care* why they did it, that's a valid and debatable point. Certainly, there is *no* possible justification for what they did, so in at least one sense it doesn't matter what their motivation was. But the Salon article takes the viewpoint that we should care why they did it, because ignorance is bad and could lead to further similarly horrible events, and because knowledge of our enemy is helpful in crafting the most appropriate response. I think these are valid points worth considering.
 
Hello All,

I just have to say that I am impressed with the well-worded and thought out opinions you have all expressed. I admit my own ignorance in politics & religion and so (with the inadvertant help) I am now motivated to do my own research and forge my own opinion.

It's been enlightening to read the inteligent and thought provoking views of our TMF members on the Terrorist attack issues.

I didn't mean to take this thread off track. Please carry on...:)
 
Sigh again...

Its always so depressing to read the "rationalization" for abhorrent acts of violence. Someone always feels we're "holding them down"...which I translate to mean they can't seize power and pillage the government to their hearts content as they would like to do. The problem actually is our tolerance level for these fools. They wish to wield power without taking the prerequisite steps that are necessary to obtain said power, and often temper ones taste for it. To put it simply, many things that require one to strive mightily to achieve and obtain often result in a change of perspective on the journey towards the goal. Focusing on the meaning of the word "crusade" is an abstract line of reasoning that serves only to fog the true issue. Strel was his usual subtle self (rofl) with all those shades of grey in his statements...lol. Regardless of what grievances may legitimately exist as a result of our operating as the worlds policeman, this isn't the answer, and I truly believe that bin Laden planned to become a martyr with these ridiculous acts of wanton stupidity. It is unbelievable that a businessman of his acumen could have so misread the American nation and its temperament to this degree, therefore it is a form of suicide that will give him his moment of glory. Strel is absolutely correct when he states that all truly Islamic countries and governments should be branding him as a " Non-Islamic" extremist and doing so constantly and loudly. We haven't seen nearly enough of these statements, which of course causes a backlash of suspicion towards the very Islamic people that want us to "trust" them and not malign them as a group. We are definitely in an "action speaks louder than words" mood, so lets see it!! Q
 
good and bad terrorism

Qjakal-

I think the reason why we don't see Islaamic organizations and governments issuing blanket condemnations of terrorist activities is that they have all, in one degree or another, applauded and supported the very same terrorism in the middle east conflict between Israel and the PLO. All of these orginizations have endorsed the terrorist activities of Hamas and Hezbollah, in their continuing fight against Israel. These organizations, under the approving eye of Yassir Arafat and the PLO, have been launching suicide attack after suicide attack on the civilians of Israel for decades (inflicting larger casualties than the recent WTC bombing), yet the Western world must walk on eggshells in siding with Israel against such despicable conduct. Why? Because the West (and particularly the U.S.) is afraid of losing the "coalition" of moderate Arab states who want to be our friend, yet would love to see Israel erased from the map. Let's face it -- Islam is in favor of whatever it takes to annihilate Israel, and they won't condemn terrorism because they see it as appropriate in certain circumstances. In their eyes, there is good terrorism (when used against Jews) and bad terrorism, when used against others.
 
Fatboy-

I think the article's main point is that the U.S.'s view that "we are the symbol of freedom and an end to opression anywhere and everywhere in the world!" is NOT shared by the nation of Islam. Boehlert argues that -- in the eyes of Islam -- the United States is the symbol of freedom while simultaneously acting as the INSTIGATOR of oppression throughout the world. Thus, your statement that "I just think other countries are a bit jealous of us" is exactly the point Boehlert rails against in his article.
 
Just an opinion:

I’ve held back my views for a long time, mostly because I think that Americans are entitled to a huge amount of fury after this horrible mass-murder. But the article MN posted here forces me to quit my silence.

First of all, I must state that I’m neither American nor Anti-American; I consider myself a citizen of this planet as a whole, so “my country” suffered a lot more casualties than any single state. My grief about that nearly killed me in my fragile health, and I wept for many days during every TV rerun of the massacre. To my own horror, I felt the urge to grab a gun and kill someone responsible for that myself, although I abhor violence. The drive for vengeance can be overpowering sometimes; it is very human.

But back to the article: May the Americans forgive me, but good old US of A has never been renowned to be particularly sensitive in handling world politics. Perhaps the fact that more than ten percent of American university graduates won’t find USA on a geological globe (without political borders) is responsible for that. This isn’t my opinion, it was a study by an American congressional committee on educational matters less than a dozen years ago. Still, USA (like most nations) spends billions more for the military forces than for education.

Certainly the news coverage in the States doesn’t help the Americans to understand global matters better. Any major traffic accident in the next county gets more media attention than parliament elections in non-American states, for example. And like in so many Hollywood flicks, the choice between good and bad seems very easy.

It isn’t. There is no such thing as “an universal truth”, and just like in personal conflicts, there are always two sides of the same medal. Both can be true, and no medal is “good” on one side and “bad” on the other.

Let’s take an excursion into the history of the Middle East: Both the Palestinians and the Jews were promised their own country by the British, in order to win their support in WW2. After the war, the British withdrew from their previous “protectorate” and left the region in turmoil. Israel turned out to be victorious in this struggle (first on their own, then with American assistance), but at what price?!

Palestinians fled in thousands from the country they had lived in for many centuries. The Israelis were entitled to their own country after the holocaust, no doubt. But their justification for the possession of this special region, drawn from ancient times, doesn’t count for those people whose ancestors have lived there much longer. Just imagine the American Indian tribes claim their rights on American soil for historic reasons, and the UN granting them this right because of the Bill of Human Rights, signed by USA. The same happened to Palestinians. They were furious about losing their own home country, but they had neither the weapons nor the financial means to destroy Israel. Frustration results in hatred, and hatred caused violence in the more aggressive Palestinians. Hatred against the aggressors and those who supported them (doesn’t that kind of argumentation sound familiar in your ears?). Organized terrorism started with the PLO.

The Palestinians were forced into crowded refugee camps. All the Arabian oil-dollars could have been used to help them, but these Arab states chose to leave them in misery and poverty, well aware that the refugee camps provided an excellent source for anti-Israelian sentiments in the whole world. And the USA never considered those camps a threat to world peace, they continued their lopsided support for Israel. Oh, of course, America has initiated the peace process there with the Camp David treaties. Ironically, this caused the Nobel Prize Committee to grant the Peace Award to two former terrorists: Arafat (PLO) and Begin (formerly Haganah).

As to America being the world’s police force: This has never been something else than the strongest one forcing his opinion on the weaker ones. Of course, the strong ones bears a responsibility to protect the weak, but in history America only seemed to be interested in this if their economic or political influence was at stake. Korea? Yes. Vietnam? Yes. Both because of the desire to push back communism. Kuwait? Yes. The Shah? Yes. Oil. Nicaragua, Panama, Cuba? Yes, economic and political interests.

Kurdistan? No. Indonesia (East Timor)? No. Tibet? No. I could continue this list, but I won’t. Just nothing to be gained there, although the weak are suppressed by the strong. But as an American expert on the Middle East said: If guerillas support the West (the USA), they are "Freedom Fighters”, and they are supported with money and weapons. But if they fight against despotic West-friendly rulers or against Israel, they are terrorists. As long as the Taliban fought against the Russians, USA supported them with weapons and CIA training camps. Now they are the strongest force in Afghanistan, and they claim the right to control this country. They are even imitating the US unknowingly in this principle. Just as America has the biggest amount of bombs and weapons in the world, the Taliban have most of the guns in their country, and they act accordingly.

Stamp out terrorism? Of course! But nothing forced the USA to act when all Afghani women were forbidden jobs and denied medical treatment. No problem as long as no Americans are involved, is there? This was just one of many beginnings.

What could be gained with a military strike against the Taliban? America is perfectly able to stamp out all Afghanistan without problems. Would that end terrorism? NO! On the contrary: While most Islamic states hate the Taliban, they would show solidarity to a mass loss of civilian lives who are just as innocent as the WTC victims. A huge upraise of the whole Islamic world would follow and result in an enormous increase of terrorist attacks, if not in WW3.

Hitler was proven wrong when he believed that bomb attacks on British civilian targets would cause the Brits’ resolve to fight against him to falter. It welded them together like nothing before, similar to what the WTC attacks did to Americans. The Taliban will not run scared because of America’s aircraft carriers cruising somewhere in the Indian Sea. The ocean can’t be seen from any point in Afghanistan, it’s many hundred miles away. They have been victorious over the Russians who had much shorter supply lines, and they really believe that in the end, they will win the war. They won’t, but they might cause a much bigger trouble to the world if we all ignore that political reality doesn’t only exist in the United States of America or the European countries.

Islam itself isn’t responsible for terrorism. One of the main sources of terrorism is the Palestine problem, as Mr. Peres said in his speech at the US Congress. Economic and political greed (both by western and non-western nations) are other roots, as are widespread discontent, poverty, and the lack of freedom in the Third World.

Sorry for this extensive ramble, but I just had to get it off my soul. No historic, political, or religious background can justify these or any terrorists’ attack, that much is clear. But asking for the “why” must be allowed; it is more important than the “who”.

I only fear for my world, and it’s your world, too.
 
Nooooooo.......

Again we see apparent logic being applied to an illogical act. Let me respond to your entire "review" with a simple statement and then pose a question:

1-- There will NEVER be any one way to act that will please more than 50% of the world.

2-- What other country would NOT have already conquered the known world if it had the resources and technological advantages that the United States has held at various times throughout its history?

Yup...its a MIGHTY short list, and even then you're guessing. The world has been up for grabs numerous times in our history. Guess all arguments of intentions pale a bit when placed against the ACTIONS of this country.

Nope--we're NOT always right. But if you doubt that overall we're trying to be right, I suggest you just keep thinking about what the world would be like if some other nation wielded our arsenal and had a volunteer army equiped with our technology. I think the odds of your being able to make the number of choices regarding your lifestyle would be VERY curtailed....especially if you happened to be female.

Write all you wish if it makes you feel better, but think on #2 once in a while....you won't sleep well, but at least it will be an honest troubled night of tossing and turning and weighing all the "what ifs".....scary.
 
Notebooks

Daumantas, you've given me the perfect intro for this post. A tip o' the pickelhaube to you.

The September 26 Washington Post carried two articles germane to this thread.

The first, "A Just Struggle" by E. J. Dionne Jr., can be found at www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26284-2001Sep26.html. He says that liberal views are consistent with fighting a just war, which this is. Furthermore, his fellow liberals had best get their minds right if they want to have any influence at all on the course of the war.

The second, "Pacifist Claptrap" by Michael Kelly, is at www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26290-2001Sep26.html. He says that pacifists give aid and comfort to the enemy, who in this case are the enemy of all civilized people, not just Americans. Since it serves the cause of evil, pacifism is itself evil. No middle ground, you're with us or against us.

MN, the only "Nation of Islam" I'm familiar with is Louis Farrakhan's crew. No such thing otherwise, any more than "Christendie" still exists as an organized force. Some who claim to be Muslims favor murdering innocent people for political advantage. The Koran tells the strong to protect the innocent. On that basis, true Muslims will join the rest of us in exterminating terrorist vermin.

Mia, Fatboy, glad you could drop in. Don't take our word for it. There's plenty of good info out there, including good English-language translations of the Koran.

Q, I figured you'd show up here. As usual, we're traveling in the same direction. I've been tempted to start my own thread, "Notebooks of Strelnikov" to record random thoughts. Instead of "Rub her feet" I'd have to say "TICKLE her feet" but it's hard to argue with "Always put your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark."

Life is short-

Strelnikov
 
Oh, thank you so much, America, for not having conquered the world when you could. You’re too generous!

I’ve got news for you: The world is not for grabs, neither for the US nor for others. Even if any single nation could do it, they wouldn’t. The world as it is now just can’t be ruled by one nation. You can conquer the world, but then you’ll either have to feed the whole population or to kill them.

Mr. Q, I’m disappointed. I would have expected a more differentiated kind of reply from you. Instead, all you do is to deny logic to the rest of the world, and pose purely hypothetical and polemic questions. Logic applied to hypothetical questions may be an amusing philosophical game. May I offer a counter-question therefore: How long do you think would any single nation – however powerful - be able to rule the world before the whole structure falls apart?

I don’t expect a reply; this is just to show you the problem behind your question. My question is just as invalid as yours, if we’re talking about reality.

Reality is: America has one of the highest crime rates in the western world (despite the death penalty), it has still a race problem however much you deny it, and an unemployment and poverty rate unequalled in most of the “civilized” world. America’s unstable trade balance shows clearly its dependency on the rest of the world. The rest of the world is no more dependant on America than the other way round. You’ve got enough problems to solve in your own country, but Mr. Reagan und Mr. Bush jr. decided to spend billions of dollars for a Star Defense program. Mr. Bush jr. decides to ignore the fact that carbon dioxide emissions will eventually destroy our atmosphere and climate, a fact which is accepted by all other industrialized nations. That’s like denying that smoking is dangerous to your health. Just a few examples.

I have to repeat myself: I’m not Anti-American, but some ultra-nationalistic, ultra-ignorant, and ultra-megalomaniac opinions here make it hard to keep up a positive attitude towards America. Luckily, I know many Americans personally, and they are perfectly sane and intelligent, very likeable people. It’s good to know them.
 
Still nooo...

Actually, once conquered, the world would be hard pressed to rise up ever again, due to the enormous resources that the ruling government would have at its command. Not to mention the fact that if it persisted long enough, the memory of the old national structures would fade away and be replaced by this world colony mentality. Perhaps we HAVE done a great evil by not forcing the nations to come together....interesting point Rex. As for denying the "logic" of the rest of the world, I thought it only fair to return the favor..lol. Yup, we have a high crime rate, which may be a byproduct of the extensive individual freedoms we grant our citizens. It's coming down rapidly though, and we'll be fine. Yup, we can and do spend billions on new technology, and will continue to lead the world in both good and bad developments in many fields, especially weaponry. I would imagine we'll be spending a nearly incalculable amount over the next decade, and that our economy will be getting on a war footing shortly and really cranking along again...scary isn't it? Still struggling with both race and educational issues, but each generation sees progress on many fronts, and we at least have a fairly open dialogue about it...can many other nations say the same?

Though you led with a fairly sarcastic reply, I'd suggest that its more accurate than you believe....we ARE too generous, and it may be the death of us yet, though it seems to be inherent.

I'm not an ultra patriot Rex, but there comes a time when even an average citizen has had enough and seen enough. The world can whine and gripe about our "interference" all it likes...just stay the *&%@ out of our airspace. By the way, we can feed the whole world, it wouldn't be as difficult as you might imagine. The problem is that many governments don't want their people well fed and with leisure time to think and plan and dream. Hang in there and we may yet see the day when resources are alloted a bit differently...well...YOU may if you're young enough, doubt I'll live that long. Regardless....peace with honor be the goal, and let the innocent be shielded as well as they may. Q
 
Obviously my words were heard but not understood. Actually, I’m not really surprised.

When in love, people think with their hearts, when hungry, they think with their stomachs, and in situations like these, they think with their irritated gall-bladders. In practically all these cases, you’ll find a sign at the door to their brains: Temporarily Out of Order. Words are not enough to cure diseases or to penetrate deep, intent emotions. Never. Hopefully, there will be enough bloodshed to quench your thirst.

I am sorry to have bothered you with my opinions. From now on, I’ll remain silent on these topics and withdraw to being just another “Registered Lurker” again. Over and out.
 
Hmmm....

Well, I attempted to address the points ya raised, big guy, sorry if that wasn't enough! Me and my gall bladder will be over here if you want to chat anymore..:) Obviously you haven't read most of my posts, because I'm one of the least bloodthirsty people posting at the moment. I understood your assertions, but I don't agree with them in general. The Islamic world feels we are "guilty" of siding with Israel on a consistent basis. Yup...but I and many others don't perceive it as a crime, rather as standing fast beside an ally. Let's see, what else did you spray out there...hmmm...trade imbalance...hardly a crime....carbon dioxide emissions.....working on them, going rather well also...electric and hybrid cars are on their way. But basically, according to your argument, you've got us either way...if we "police" in certain areas only, we're guilty of neglecting or ignoring other also worthy spots. If we pulled back and stopped dispensing foreign aid and/or military help we'd be accused of having our heads in the sand (or other bad places..lol).

I've agreed in other threads that it IS wrong that we waited until we were so directly attacked...no argument there...of course we would have been the center of international scorn and ridicule if we had gone after the Taliban for suppressing womens rights before this incident. It really is the crime we are guilty of indeed...waiting for it to be Americans, so the naysayers have only that to whisper about. We should have stepped on this snake MUCH sooner and let the chatterers say what they would have...sigh. Q
 
Hello,
As far as Rex's assertion that no one country would want to take over the world:if we change the word country to government,the United Nations would be a perfect example of a body trying to control the world.If anyone doubts that,read into the UN's goals and charters.They leave no doubt who they want to be in control....and they are slowly trying to undermine sovereign nations every day.
 
I have just this to add: I don't think Q's point was that the US could, or should, conquer all the world and establish a long-lasting, global empire. His point, I believe, was this: Any other nation, in our position, with our wealth and power, would have TRIED to embark on wars of conquest by now. The last individual person to embark on a full-scale bid for world conquest - that would be Adolf - didn't succeed at it; but he did inflict such minor conveniences on the world as the devastation of most of Europe and the deaths of 25 million people. It isn't that the US would conquer the world successfully if it wanted to; it's that just about anyone else you can think of (excluding some of our European friends) would have tried it by now, with catastrophic results for everyone. Q's point (I believe) had to do with the irony of being told how viciously we "meddle" in everyone's affairs when, in reality, America practices remarkable self-restraint.
 
A light!!

Tah Dah! Yup....it's a matter of basic intentions and nature, which SHOULD count for more than we get credit for, but, whatever. We have big shoulders and can take some sniping I guess. "Never perfect, usually trying.." Not much of a motto for a superpower though, is it? His point was that we could do better (absolutely!) and that we need to be more aware of other world views....which is difficult especially for the computer illiterate, due to the egocentric nature of our press. As I've said before, we ARE guilty of waiting for it to be Americans who suffered the bite of these scorpions.....hopefully we can try to make some amends, and perhaps bring a greater world perspective to our own population in the process. We're bound to be hearing about some new perspectives and places if we continue this attempt to rid the world of these types of extremists. Hope we don't forget some of the terrorist Christian extremist groups also....nah.....we're getting too clever to do that, aren't we? Gulp.... Q
 
World Conquest? Nah...

Unfortunately, Monday Night Football is more important than, say, the fate of Somalis, former-Yugoslavs, Timorese, or oppressed foreign women. Can't do anything to affect the outcome of any of these, but you can at least bet on the ball game.

I'm not eager to risk the lives of American soldiers for feel-good missions. They joined up to defend our country. It is a breach of faith with them to spend their lives just so that members of the chattering classes can demonstrate their superior moral sensibilities.

Nor am I interested in world conquest. Read Rudyard Kipling's poem "White Man's Burden". It's a fair summary of the costs of Empire done properly - uplift the savage and so forth. I don't feel that generous.

Truth of the matter is, we've been attacked. There are worse things than war. Letting the bastards who did this get away with it is one of them. Any signs of lack of resolve will be interpreted as weakness, and will just invite another attack. We need to identify our enemies - ALL of them. There's a soldiers' song contemporary with the Kipling poem that says what comes next:

"Underneath the starry flag,
Civilize 'em with a Krag...."

Strelnikov
 
What's New

4/26/2024
Visit Dorr 44 for clips! Details in the D44 box below!
Tickle Experiment
Door 44
NEST 2024
Register here
The world's largest online clip store
Live Camgirls!
Live Camgirls
Streaming Videos
Pic of the Week
Pic of the Week
Congratulations to
*** brad1701 ***
The winner of our weekly Trivia, held every Sunday night at 11PM EST in our Chat Room
Back
Top