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Medjugorje

ReturntoGod

Registered User
Joined
Sep 13, 2001
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Greetings all! I arrived back from an arduous plane journey late last night and was too tired to fire up the old computer. I'd like to tell you what I discovered in Medjugorje. I promise that I will try not preach :) I'll just tell you what I saw and what I learned and you can take it for what you will.


We arrived to Mejugorje by way of airlines from St. Louis to...Cincinnati...New York...Prague...Split...and then a three hour bus ride to Medjugorje. It is a poor country of dirt roads and crudely built rock houses surrounded by small stone mountains. It is a country of weather beaten old women covered in shawls plucking the grapes from the vineyards beneath the excruciating summer heat. There are no three story buildings in Medjugorje. There are no shopping malls or internet Cafe's. There is no Starbuck's nor even a McDonalds. It is a land largely untouched by the commercialism of the western world.

We stayed in the home of Mirijana, one of the six visionaries. Mirijana is now in her early thirties and she has received all ten secrets from the Blessed Mother. Her daily visions have ceased, but she stills sees the Virgin Mary on her birthday as was promised her.

Three places dominate Medjugorje. First, St. James Church which stands at the foot of the second, Mount Krychevik. And third is Apparition Hill where the six children first saw the Blessed Mother in 1981. Whether you're an occasional visitor to your local church or even an avid "church goer" you cannot imagine the kind of mass that is held at Saint James Church. The daily english mass is at 10:00 am. The Church is built to accommodate around five hundred people. It is not enough. All around the outside of the church are pews and speakers blare out the mass to those who cannot fit inside. The daily attendance at these masses was near 600-800 people and this is at a time when pilgrimages are down nearly 60% due the turmoil in America and the threat of impending war.

The mass at Medjugorje is unlike any other mass I have ever attended, anywhere. In one of her messages the Blessed Mother says that we should feel as if the Church is our home. That is exactly how it felt. People did not merely respond to the Priest, they shouted with devotion. When they sang the hymns it was not like most churches, their voices thundered and seem to shake the large cathedral to its foundations. I attended mass there daily and there was never less than twenty priest celebrating mass on the alter. Let me say that again, 20 priests! I have seldom seen more than two or three at a given time. Priest come from all over the world for just the chance to say mass at Medjugorje.

On the second day of the trip we rose at around 5 am and took a small bus to the foot of Mt. Krychevek. For two hours we climbed the steep ascent of jagged rocks stopping at intervels to say the Stations of the Cross. One thing that shocked me, brought me almost to tears was the devotion of the Croatian people. Old women, some in their eighties, were climbing this dangerous path of sharp rocks and they were doing it barefoot. Their rosaries clasped in hand and whispering prayers under their breath. At the top of Mount Krychevek stands a giant stone cross. Many people have reported seeing miraculous visions and supernatural events around this cross. I'll come to that in a bit.

Two days later we ascended Apparition Hill. The climb was not as long as that of Mt. Krychevek, but it was much steeper and much more dangerous. A false step on one of the loose stones could give you a serious concussion and a nasty fall. But again, the old women were walking barefoot up this hill, their pain a testament to their faith. As we go up Apparition Hill we say the rosary as is the tradition and when we reach the top we the statue of the Blessed Mother of Medjugorje. It stands about twelve feet tall. In her left hand is a rosary and she is looking down on "her children" with a peaceful half smile. Hundreds and hundreds of people are on their knees, the sharp rocks digging in their flesh does not seem to bother them. Besides the murmuring of prayers there is a peaceful silence. For everyone who comes here knows that this is where the Blessed Mother first began her apparitions in 1981 and Mirijana has told us that the Blessed Mother prays daily on this hill.

Many people have experienced miraculous events in Medjugorje and I will say that I was no exception. I saw the "Miracle of the Sun" which so many people have reported from Apparition Hill. It was miraculous indeed! Coming down Apparition Hill with my mother I saw that several people below were on their knees, their hands outstretched before them. They were looking at the sun. I turned towards it and to my shock I could look right at it. I didn't need to shield my eyes or squint. I could look at it as if I were looking at the moon. Then I saw the miracle. Inside the sun was a white host, a brilliant white. And around it was a disk of pure gold. All around this disk was a pink aura. As if this was not enough, the sun began to dance. It was literally jumping around the sky and the host was pulsating within it. At that very time many people in our pilgrimage were down in the village and later told us that they saw the Blessed Mother beneath the sun. It was the most amazing thing I had ever seen. This was not the extent of the supernatural though. One day while praying the rosary, I took it from it's case and looked in awe at the rosary that had once been silver. It was now gold. I had heard that this sometimes happened, but I never thought it would happen to me :) The last miraculous thing I saw on our final night. We were walking amid the small town, at the foot of Mt. Krychevek. It was dark out and we could not see the large stone cross that stood at the mountain's peak. Suddenly people began shouting. I turned and looked and at the top of Mt. Krychevek the stone cross was alive with flames. I would have fallen to my knees if my surprise had not been so great. This lasted for about half a minute and then the cross began to turn all kinds of dazzling colors in a matter of seconds. Then it faded and we could see only darkness.

As wonderful and miraculous as some of these things sound they are not the true miracles of Medjugorje. No indeed, the true miracle is the faith itself. This is a town that was ravished by communism. It's Franciscan priests were martyred and the diocesan priest driven away. Yet they could not kill the religion in the heart of the people. They could scare them and abuse them, but they could not kill their love of God. There is an indefinable quality about Medjugorje, something in the air or perhaps something in the water. But whatever this amazing aura should be, I know only that it gives you peace. Real peace. If I could have I would have stayed in Medjugorje. I didn't want to come home. Not ever. I didn't miss the television or the internet or the football games. Nothing on this earth compares to the sense of peace you feel in Medjugorje. Thousands of non-believers have traveled there only to be converted. It is truly, as others have said, a piece of Heaven on earth.

So why am I writing all of this? What does this have to do with the world at large? In short: everything. Vicka, who receives the monthly messages for the world on the 25th of every month received this message last Tuesday from the Blessed Mother:

"Message of September 25, 2001 "Dear children! Also today I call you to prayer, especially today when Satan wants war and hatred. I call you anew, little children: pray and fast that God may give you peace. Witness peace to every heart and be carriers of peace in this world without peace. I am with you and intercede before God for each of you. And you do not be afraid because the one who prays is not afraid of evil and has no hatred in the heart. Thank you for having responded to my call."

The constant theme of the Blessed Mother throughout her messages is a call to prayer and conversion. For as she has told Mirijana several times...a time is coming when it will be too late for conversions.

We actually got to sit down and do a sort of interview with Mirijana and Jakov (two of the visionaries). I'll just give you the highlights of that encounter. (We had a video made of it. If anyone would like a copy email me and I'll get one to you.)

MIRIJANA INTERVIEW:
Question: You say that many times when you see Mary she is crying. Why?

Mirijana: Blessed Mother is crying because she is mother to all of us. She is crying because people don't feel God's love in their hearts. She loves all children the same and she is crying for unbelievers because she knows what awaits them.

Question: You were given a vision of Heaven. Can you tell us what it looked like?

Mirijana: You will be having an interview with Jakov later today. He has seen Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. So save that question for him.

Question: What is it like when you see Mary?

Mirijana: There are no words to describe it. When she comes all the people in the room fade away. The room itself fades away. My own children fade away. All I see is Blessed Mother. She is very beautiful. She has long dark hair and very pretty blue eyes. If only once you could see the tears in the Blessed Mother's eyes you would live at the Church.

JAKOV INTERVIEW:

Jakov: I know what all of you want to hear about and what you're going to ask. You all want to know about Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. I will tell you. When I was ten, Blessed Mother took me and Vicka and hid us from the communists. She told us I am going to show you these visions so that you will know they exist. Then she showed me Heaven. I saw a great expanse with no end. There was a light unlike anything I have ever seen on earth. There were people in long flowing gowns. Really, that is all I can say. There are no earthly words to describe it.

Question: What about Purgatory?

Jakov(laughing): I'm coming to that. Next Blessed Mother showed me Purgatory. I saw a large dark space and there was like a thick gray fog everywhere. Blessed Mother says some people who die with sin come here. But they can no longer pray for themselves. They need the prayers of their family so they can get to heaven. The souls there are in pain. Often the Blessed Mother goes to comfort them........Next Blessed Mother showed me vision of Hell (long pause). All I can say is that I don't wish that on anyone. I don't like to talk about it and I try never to think about it. That is all I want to say about that.
__________________________________________________________

So what to make of all this? Miracles and Visions, Secrets and revelations...It all sounds like something out of the Bible doesn't it? When I first read the book on Medjugorje I thought the same. But the more I read the more I was convinced. Doctors from all over the world have been sent to do test on the visionaries. When they are in a state of ecstasy (during a vision) their eyes move in unison as do their lips, but no words come out. During the apparitions people have attempted to shine spot-lights in their eyes, prick them with pins, etc. They never blink, they never take their eyes off of that unseen vision. The doctors cannot explain what is happening. They have done unnumbered test on the visionaries and find them to be healthy people, physically and psychologically.

So then what is the one message of Medjugorje? What sums it all up? I don't know if it can be summed up in one sentence, but if it can be I think it is this: We need to return to prayer. The Blessed Mother said in another vision that a century ago Satan came before the Throne of God and asked permission to tempt the Church for the next one hundred years. God gave him permission. Look what has happened to our sacraments: Marriage - 50% end in divorce, people have stopped going to church. We have broken families, drug addictions, pornography, abortions, etc, etc. This is all an offense to God and it a seed of evil that has been sewn in our society. So what do we do now? We go back to God. Look what happened in New York. It took a terrible tragedy like that to fill our Churches again and already they are saying that people are going back to normal, that attendance is dropping again already. So we run to God when we need him. When we're afraid, but the rest of the time He's just not important enough? Is that our answer?

The Blessed Mother has given us five tools for salvation in one of her messages. They are these:
1. Monthly Confession
2. The Mass (she says the mass is more important the her apparitions)
3. The Eucharist
4. The Rosary
5. Fasting (she has asked us to fast on bread & water on Wend.& Fri.)

"Prayer can change the natural law" says the Blessed Mother, "it can stop wars." In our times, in our dark days I think we need more then ever to return to prayer. As she tells us, "Once the second secret comes to pass it will be too late for conversion." I can't say I know exactly what it means, but I think I get the gist of it. And still the Blessed Mother is appearing and she is weeping in her visions, because she loves all of her children and "she is crying because of unbelievers. She knows what awaits them." - (Mirijana)

You can take from this experience of mine what you wish. I don't intend to try to force anything on anyone. I simply wanted to share with you a very profound experience. If you are at all interested in Medjugorje and would like to read more about it I can recommend a couple of good books:
"Visions of the Children"
"Letters from Medjugorje" by Wayne Weible

To hear the monthly messages go here: www.medjugorje.org

Peace,
Scott

A bit of preaching: (don't read if you're offended by such things :)

C.S. Lewis once wrote: "The two greatest misconceptions man makes about the devil is one; disbelieving in his existence and two; having an unhealthy compulsion towards him."

It is also said that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making the world belive he didn't exist.

The devil exists. He is strong and he hates God and us. Misery loves company and he wants all of our souls with him in hell. Padre Pio, the Stigmatic who died in 1968 (also had visions), once said that if we could see the demons in the world, if they were made visible - there would be so many that they would blot out the light of the sun.

Evil is all around us. That should be evident by our society, by our decaying morals. The devil is whispering in our ear, tempting us, he has thousands and thousands of tricks. He knows our desires and our fears and he uses those against us. We cannot defeat him alone nor can we resist him without aid. We need prayer. We need God, because without him we are lost. The Blessed Mother's messages are about prayer, love and peace. Where is that in our world today? Turn on CNN - "prayer, love and peace"? I see desecration, hatred and war. Something's wrong here. Maybe it's time we started listening to our Blessed Mother. Maybe it's time we went back to church, not just because of a tragedy, but to build a relationship with God. We need God more so than we need oxygen. As the bible tells us, lean on God. We must be like children, children who trust blindly in their parent's love. So we must do the same and we will never be led astray. Prayer can change the natural law the Blessed Mother tells us, it can stop wars. Let's start praying. We've tried to do it our own way for the last hundred years and look where it's gotten us. Isn't it about time we gave God a chance?

(Again if you would like a copy of the video with Mirijana and Jakov's interviews as well as footage of them during an apparition, then email me and I'll get one to you.)

my email: [email protected]
 
Try not to preach???!!!

May all our chosen gods help us if you DO start preaching.
 
I can't wait until Myriads sets up the Non-Tickling Topics Page. I think Mirijana should lay off the Marijuana.
 
I, for one, would like to see the end of these posts. I find them absurd, idiotic and totally without the slightest bit of merit. It's the Internet equivalent of the moron on the street corner with the "Jesus" sign haranguing you about God.

Scott actually has the gall to post his insane rantings here after destroying my--and many others'--writings on the old Forum because he thinks that everyone should think and act as he does. He should be banned permanently from ever posting here and this thread should immediately be deleted.
 
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I agree with the above, and would like to add that anyone who actually comes here to read shit like that should also be banned.
 
Not to get picky,but nothing says you have to read it people.
 
Is this Scott A.k.a Physco(sp), the guy who created the TMF in the first place and then left? It is right? If so I agree with Shark, ignore it, why did he even come back? I will not disrespect the guy or bitch at him though because I used to exchange emails with him and he was a cool ass guy who if not for him there would not be this board. I just can't believe this is physco, this is sad. Preach elsewhere, this is a tickling board, I doubt anyone wants to hear it. But I agree with Shark, instead of disrespecting the guy just ignore it. All my opinion.
 
They are right, you don't have to read.
Since I don't believe anyway, I read it for amusement.

To each their own.

DK
 
contradiction in terms

To shark and all others who take the "dont read it" attitude, please look up the word "Forum" in the dictionary, this is a place for people to express their views and for people to read these views and comment on them, how the hell else is it supposed to work? we have to read scotts rubbish in order to call it rubbish (is this rocket science?) and scott can dissagree with us in turn, and we call it a "THREAD" What kind of a site would it be if we all posted and then ignored each other? I do not aggree with scott but I would not stop him posting, let him have his say and then we can all tell him where to get off.
 
Hi Scott....

Hi Scott...good trip? You have guts as well as faith to be flying around the world in these times. Welcome back and hope you'll be returning to your other forum(s) soon to continue some of our previous threads.... Q
 
The final word.

Here is the deal on the thread:

It stays... for a bit.

Once the General Discussion forum is open next week I'll move it over there, so that these hallowed halls of tickling are not besmurched by any non tickling conversation.

For those of you who dislike seeing such types of posts I'll be more then happy to restrict your access to the General discussion forum. Just drop me an e-mail and I'll be sure to block you from it.

Super Tickler, and Fetter, please, when you have a second, confirm for me that you don't want access to the General Discussion forum. From your above statements I'll operate on the assumption that you Do Not want access when I set it up.

Myriads
 
Myriads, please do whatever you want. Create your special section and you can all go in there to read Scott's bullshit tripe about the Blessed Mother 'til the cows come home!
 
Myraids...

MYR, anyway the general forum can be opened sooner then next week? If not that is fine. Just have a lot to talk about.
 
General Non-tickling Discussion forum

If time allows I'll get it done Saturday night, if not then, it will be Sunday night at the latest.

Myriads
 
Myriads,

You are a good man for trying to accommodate the vast majority of the TMF members that enjoy tickling but have other valid interests as well. You definitely have my support in this.

All,
I was wondering if we could work on some of the FUCKING swearing that flavors these recent posts? I was just thinking that maybe we could restrain the use of this SHIT.

What do you TMFer's think? :D ...whatever....
 
cursing

Are we not allowed to curse on this board? Im asking because I had just one curse word in my post and it got edited. If it is a rule on here then let me know.
 
To red indian:
I don't care what the definition of a forum is.Some of these people are not just commenting.Free speech does not mean that you can slur anyone you want anyway you want.It's only common sense that if you know the posts that will be presented,you know the topic,(and it seems everyone does in this case),and you find it less than agreeable,avoid it.
Just wodering how many of the people slamming Scott would scream bloddy murder if their posts were refused like some here would have done with Scott's.
 
The forked tongue

As far as swearing goes, I agree with Mistress Mia. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I never swear. I'm in the military, surrounded by profanities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think Mia is upset about is where everybody is directing their vocabulary. I've seen posts where a f*ck or a sh*t was just casually thrown into a post, not really directed at anybody in particular, and thus never drawing attention to itself. This post, on the other hand, where people are lashing out at Scott for his difference in opinions, is a definite attention-getter. Like I said, if I'm wrong, Mia, please let me know, but my opinion is that if you don't direct them at anybody, they're just words. I'm not trying to chastise anyone, or suck up to the MODs, but I want you guys to remember something. When you first log on to the site, take a look at what it says somewhere roughly on the top left corner of the screen. Isn't it something like, 'The Flame-Free Forum'? That concept is something very important to this forum, and is taken very seriously. I've already gotten in trouble in the chat room a while back for someone misunderstanding a profanity I used jokingly towards another chat member. I had forgotten that people cannot completely read the emotions you're trying to express when all they are looking at is words on a screen. Before I go too far off subject, Myriads is already taking care of anything non-tickling related, so if there's something posted that isn't for the greater good of the forum, the MODs will get rid of it, or place it in it's appropriate category. If you don't want to hear what Scott's got to say about his experiences, you've got two choices, use that scroll bar on the right side of your screen to skip it, or use the magic 'Back' arrow on the top-left corner of your screen and pick another post to read. I don't wish to ramble any further, so I'll leave it at this. Please, just be civil towards each other.
 
Thats a good idea Flatfoot. I don't think anyone should be attacked for their opinions.
 
^#@£$!

TMF Policy on swear words.

It's a judgement call in each case. The rule I use, is this: Are the words being used as a invective against a person or group, or not?

For example: The "Mods do your Fucking job" in an above post in this thread is a usage that I would have no problem editing, or allowing a mod to clip from a post. No need for it, and it's abusive in use. It's a flame starter.

Use like: "What a fucking good time I had last night!" or "I saw Ellen on CBS last night and it was monkey shit thrown at the screen." while a touch crude, should be left alone. They harm no one directly.

Over all, I prefer to keep the use of profanity to a minimum on the forum. It's not outlawed, but like any strong tool, it should be used with care and moderation.

Myriads
 
Flatfoot,
Thank you thank you thank...I too was in the military and still curse like a good soldier. I don't advise the use of profanity in the Forum because as you clarified for me, you can't read the expressed or intended usage of it through written words. If we were in a room together, and I could SEE or (perceive) the manor and tone of the use of a swear word, I would be able to absorb it the way it was intended to be heard. Being that we merely communicate our thoughts through a written form, that novelty is lost. We are at the mercy of how others interpret our words. Thank you for saying what I couldn't explain before.

As usual, Myriads is completely right. I see it this way, if they (meaning the swear words) are "pointed" or directed at a person or a group they will be considered flame starters and will be edited. I'm only one person, so I can only edit what I see.

A good rule of thumb is, if you have to stop and question your use of an expression or profanity, then you may be better off not using it. I've edited my own Husband's posts before, I'm not going to think twice about editing other members posts.

Since this is a Forum for all and mixed company, I should like to think that everyone will do what is right. :)
 
Comes the Inquisitor...

I've been to the www.medjugorjeusa.org site that Scott posted when he left, and the www.medjugorje.org that he mentions now, and as a person who reads voraciously about genuine investigations of paranormal activity, I can say with confidence that the place is a hoax, run but charlatans eager to make a living from preying upon the faith and fear of the credulous and desperate.

Look at the first site with the www.medjugorjeusa.org url. Look at the list of links down the left-hand side of the page. What comes first? The Gift Shop. The actual messages and "miraculous" photos come a bit further down. Even on the www.medjugorje.org site, the Online Stores are the only links that get the Boldface type and flashing "New! Updated!" notices. What does that say to you? To me, that says that this otherwise resource-barren little village in the Balkan boondocks has discovered that there's profit in prophets. They've discovered that thousands of people are willing to spend American dollars for the privilege of being told what they want to hear. How much were you charged for your visit, Scott, and how often were you asked for donations?

As for Scott's supposed miracles, I see little actual divine influence in them. The "Miracle of the Sun" can easily repeated by staring at any exposed light bulb. The glowing disc with a shining halo he describes is simply what happens when the rod and cone cells on your retina get overstimulated by staring at the light source. The pulsing and dancing effect arises when natural, otherwise imperceptible motions of the eye shift new rods and sones into the area of effect, and they become over-stimulated as well. As I said, you can do this with any bare light bulb, and it doesn't meen that Thomas Alva Edison was the Second Coming. As for the fact that he could stare at the sun without squinting, I've done that myself in Autumn and Winter. At this time of year, the Northern Hemisphere receives much less direct sunlight, and temperature inversions are common, which means that you've got a lot more moisture higher up in the atmosphere that normal. As a result, that's more moisture for the sunlight to be diffused and refracted through before it gets to the eye.

I must question the truth of Scott's accounts of the Rosary transmuting from silver to gold, and the light show on the Crucifix, but that is more due to Scott's actions. We have only his testimony to go on, and assertations on an internet discussion board aren't the sort of thing that holds up under close scrutiny. I can tell you all that I'm actually an astronaut or that I've had lengthy personal conversations with the Dali Lama, but that doesn't make it true, does it? I could even say that I'm not really a human being, but rather a highly evolved form of bicycle, couldn't I? See, I can say anything I bloody well like, but backing it up is impossible under these circumstances. It doesn't help that Scott has a history of deception and duplicity on this forum, like: Posting religious harangues under the thread title "New Pics," coming back with a new screen name and pretending to be someone else for every post, etc. Not the actions of a forthright and truthful man, are they? "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is what I'm thinking of here. A lie told in the service of God does not please Him in the least.

I've looked at the "miraculous photos" on the www.medjugorjeusa.org site, and there's little I haven't seen in previous cases of supposed UFOs and hauntings. There's a lot of lens flare, a lot of sunlight reflecting off of the camera's internal mechanisms, and a lot of faces being interpreted out of random splotches. These photos are like Rorschach inkblots: Descriptions given of them say a lot more about what's going on in the observers' heads than about the actual image. It is a natural function of the human mind to impose familiar patterns onto unconnected elements. The oil stain on my garage floor might look like Elvis when viewed from the right angle, but that hardly means that it's a spiritual message from the King. I won't even talk about the blurry shot produced by sticking the camera up close to a painted devotional statue being passed off as an apparition.

Another area which calls the validity of this operation into question is the fact that the originators of the sightings were children. The testimony of children is notoriously suspect, since, seeking approval, they have a tendency to say whatever they think the questioner wants to hear. In the segment that Scott quotes in his post, they claim to have been shown Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory (A place whose reality, IIRC, even the Catholic Church currently does not endorse...), yet are remarkbly vague and evasive when asked non-specific questions about them. I noted with interest the interview on the www.medjugorje.org site where the children are asked to describe the appearance of the Blessed Virgin. In the space of a few sentences, they went from maintaining that the BVM wore no jewelery or adornments of any kind to eagerly describing her Crown of Stars when the interviewer asked if she wasn't wearing one. Even adults are not immune to this effect, as many studies of paranormal cases have shown. When a believer in UFOs questions a subject, he may lead the witness by casting his inquiries in the terms of an alien abduction, while the same interviewee could provide evidence to support the theories of a believer in Satanic Ritual Abuse. Have these kids ever been questioned by anyone who wasn't desperately seeking proof of Divine Manifesations? Do you think they'd say anything otherwise when their continued pronouncements have been the only thing keeping their entire village from starving for 20+ years?

As for the children's prophecies themselves, I am struck by how unimaginative and repetitive they are, just the same exhorations to pray and fast and go to Mass and accept Jesus and beware the Devil, slightly reordered but repeated again and again. These are exactly the sort of ideas children would have about what God expects of them morally, which brings me to another point. The advice offered by the "prophecies" is little more than a childish idea of how to get into Heaven: Where are the calls to help your fellow man, to treat him with respect, and to consider how your actions affect others, to act like a mature and responsible adult? That would be too hard, as you'd have to exert real effort towards good behavior. It's so much easier just to repeat the empty words and hope God can be bought with flattery. All they offer is simply clinging to ritual alone, with no mention of putting God's teachings into action in your dealings with other people. They mention monthly confession, which is another cop-out. Commit all the sins you want for a month, and five minutes saying "I'm sorry" to the priest will absolve you of all consequences. I don't buy that idea, any more that I believe God will let murderers and rapists into Heaven simply because they shout His praises loudly enough once they've "found Him" during their stays on death row. I refuse to accept the picture of God that Scott paints, being more concerned with how often and how fervently you tell Him how wonderful He is, than with how you behave towards your fellow humans. God is not that vain and shallow.

By Scott's own admission, he was once deeply involved in New Age and Alien Theologies. Now, I like "The X-Files" as much as the next guy, and think that Yanni is a much more talented artist than he gets credit for, but I just can't see how anyone with more brain cells than teeth can fall into the trap of New Age/Alien Theology with all the dolphin-hugging, dream-catcher-hanging, crystal-rubbing, crop-circle-chasing, Shirley MacLaine's-past-lives-chanelling, the-Space-Brothers-have-messages-of-Peace-and-Enlightenment-for-us-beleiving, that'll-be-another-$230-for-the-self-actualization-video-series-buying nonsense that it encompasses without seeing straight away that it's all a scam to transfer money from the convert's wallet to the guru's accounts with brutal efficiency. Well, I do see the appeal, actually. It tells you that your problems aren't your fault, it's all the "negative energy" around you. All you have to do is mutter the right chants, stroke the right quartz rocks, sniff the right incense, and that'll re-align your chakras and get your chi flowing according to proper Feng Shui paths again. And it's all so much easier than actually taking the effort to change your life in a way that matters. Isn't this the same thing Scott's doing now? Scott's problems aren't his fault, they're really the Devil's doing, and all he has to do is say the right prayers and eat the right wafers and his soul will have a Preferred Seating ticket to eternal bliss. And it's so much easier than actually trying to help people. It's so much easier than actually facing whatever he was so afraid of that he got into chronic masturbation to avoid dealing with it.

In case any of you think I'm not putting my money where my mouth is, let me mention Jami. Some of you may be too new to have heard of her, but many will remember her as TicklishJami, VeryTicklishJami, or Gambit's Girl. At the risk of telling tales out of school, she'll be the first to admit that she had/has a serious problem with depression and low self-image. (It's like alcoholism. You never get rid of it completely, but you can keep it on a pretty tight leash) When she told me this, I did everything I could to help her. I sent her a package full of info about specific, concrete actions she could take to fight her condition. I sent her a list of contact info for places in her area where she might find people who would accept her for the qualities that she thought made her weird. I sent her e-mails and IM's repeating that no matter how difficult it might seem to overcome her problem, I would be there to talk to, and offer whatever help I could. I did this because I had been in her place for most of my life, and I have vowed not to let anyone else suffer through it alone if I can prevent it. On October 13th, 1998, I stood on the roof of Caesar's parking garage in Atlantic City, and I was ready to jump. As I looked over the edge, a quiet thought occurred to me: "No. This isn't going to fix it." I stepped back from the ledge. I went to see the counselor, and I asked for solid information about cutting my depression out of me like the cancer it was, rather than sitting and blaming my father for my problems like I had been doing. I took the medication required, even though I was afraid of the possible side effects, because I knew that I had reached the point where I couldn't go any further without addressing the physical side of my condition. I was able to face my fear of my father, and today I work beside him 40 hours a week because I've learned that I don't have to let him affect me if I don't want him to. And most importantly, having done this, I've learned that I have a responsibility to share what I've learned when I find people who need it. And I strongly suspect that you might need it, Scott.

Ask yourself this, Scott: When you got into the New Age movement, did you think it had all the answers? Did you think it was the One, True Way? Did you think that everyone else should join you in it? Did you think that your life would be so much better if you simply did what you were told to do? How is what you're feeling now about Christianity any different?

Understand this, Scott, if you understand nothing else I've said. I'm not saying these things here and on the Religion thread to mock your faith, or to ask you to renounce God, or even to come back and run the Forum again. If you want to improve your life, and want to take steps to overcome your problems, then I cannot laud you enough; but all the evidence I see from you indicates that you have simply found something else to bury yourself in as a means to hide from your problems. I'm saying it because I question if this is the right way for you to go about that goal, because you don't seem to have done so. I'm asking you these questions because you need to think about the answers; and if you don't like the answers you come up with, shouldn't that tell you something about the path you've chosen? I'm saying it because I see somebody in trouble, and it concerns me.

I don't think you're a bad person, Scott, just a troubled and confused one. In your one post on the Religion thread recently, you said you realized that Christianity was the right way for you, but not for everyone; and that other religions are valid. Yet you still take every opportunity to say that Jesus is the only way, with no exceptions. You said when you first came back as "Sauron" that you hate this place and wish you had never created it, yet in the same breath you praised Myriads for how well he was doing as administrator. You claim that we should all be wary of the Devil's subtle influence, no matter how harmless it may seem, yet you choose "Sauron" as your first screen-name and use "Nazgul" in your e-mail address. These are the names of demonic entities from the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Is naming yourself after a demon, even a fictitious one, really avoiding Satanic influence if you really believe that it exists so strongly? You later used the screen-names "No One" and "Not Important" (or variants thereof, as the original threads are deleted, I can't find them to check.) To me, these actions suggests a heart and mind in conflict with itself.

I agree that this would be a very beneficial discussion, and the threads should not be deleted, but the problem is that Scott doesn't appear to want an actual discussion. Since his return, he's done little beyond start threads to toss an Evangelical Molotov Cocktail into the forum, then qjakal, Strelnikov, Hal, myself and others debate the issue, and come to agreement rather quickly. Scott does not respond for a month or two at a time, then when he does resurface, it's simply to start another thread and repeat the process. In fact, the only evidence I've seen that he's bothered to read what we post in reply is when he took offense to a jest I made about his apparent refusal to stick around and support his end of the argument (If he had read the subsequent posts, he'd know the context and that it was meant lightly) and chose to childishly boast of his athletic prowess. To this date, I have yet to see him carry on a reasoned debate, or even to refute a single point we have made. Perhaps he can't refute anything we've said. If you don't feel your beliefs are strong enough on their own to stand up to disagreement, Scott, maybe that should tell you something about them.

If Scott is to be banned from the forum, it is not because of his beliefs, but rather because of his steadfast refusal to do anything other than ambush us with them. The Monty Python Argument Clinic sketch ("This isn't an argument." "Yes it is." "No it isn't" "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!") stops being funny after the third viewing or so, and simply become tedious after that point. Until he actually starts to carry on a conversation, he's doing little more than shouting "Fire!" in a crowded forum.

I leave you with a song by Enya, from her most recent album A Day Without Rain which seems to be appropriate to Scott's situation. It's called "Pilgrim":


Pilgrim, how you journey...on the road you chose
To find out why the winds die, and where the stories go

All days come from one day
That much you must know
You cannot change what's over
But only where you go

One way leads to diamonds
One way leads to gold
Another leads you only
To everything you're told

In your heart you wonder
Which of these is true
The road that leads to nowhere
The road that leads to you

Will you find the answer in all you say and do?
Will you find the answer...in you?

Each heart is a pilgrim
Each one wants to know
The reason why the winds die
And where the stories go

Pilgrim, in your journey
You may travel far
For pilgrim it's a long way
To find out who you are...

Pilgrim, it's a long way...To find out who you are...

Pilgrim, it's a long way...To find out who you are...
 
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