Backing down already.......

president bush is now saying how a palestinian state was always part of a vision. and i heard colin powell will address the u.n. about a creation of a palestinian state. sure, they attach "if Israel's right to exist is respected", but this is all starting to sound like bullshit. what is going on? are they unaware that this is one of the main reasons terrorists attack us? this is completely giving in to terrorism. oh wait, maybe those were "peaceful" car bombs. and teaching your kids to throw rocks and then shoot guns at anything that's not you must be part of the culture, i mean it couldn't be harmful to the area could it? where is this land coming from? i garuantee it's not lebanon and egypt...hmmm...who could they take it from? i have an idea, how about israel, the only non-arab country that's about the size of new jersey. let's make it looks more like rhode island, i mean, then we can practically pretend it's not there.

what is next on president bush's list of cave-ins? i mean, is he going to step down and let gore be president? maybe gore should have blown something up.

sorry, i just see this as the start of a lot of bad decisions to come. i have no problem with arabs or muslims. but giving into one group of terrorists to help you fight another just seems a bit hypocritical to me.

When Trans-Jordan was partitioned after WWII it was the intent for there to be both a Jewish and Palestinian state made from it.

Upon partition war errupted.

The attack upon the newly founded Jewish state ended in a defeat for arab forces, and the destruction of the Palestinian proto-state. With much of it's land absorbed into Israel.

So, Bush's statements are indeed based in historical fact. There WAS a vision for a Palestine.

As to how this historical fact might bear upon the real on the ground events of today... not for me to say.

Myriads

I hadn't heard about this. As Al Gore once said, "I'll have to inform myself." Where did you read this, Sandman?

Assuming this is true, I've got a sinking feeling about it, as you do Sandman. The reason there is no Palestine state is two-fold:

(1) Palestine, and the rest of the Arab world, tried to anhililate Israel immediately upon its creation (Myriad is correct, although I'd amend his statement re: "war erupted" to "all surrounding states simultaneously declared war on Israel"); when Israel defended itself and won the war, it seized those portions of land that launched the attack. Seems reasonable to me. If the U.S. were attacked by Canada, and the Canadians were using strategic military strongholds to rain bombs down upon us, such as high mountains overlooking populated areas, we wouldn't simply give these areas back to them after the dust settled. No less should be expected of Israel.

(2) The rest of the Arab world has refused to absorb the Palestinian "refugees" for political reasons (Sandman is right -- you can bet your bottom dollar that no surrounding Arab states will give up an acre of THEIR land as sanctuary to these people). They'd rather have a PLO out there to drum up world support for these poor, defenseless, displaced people.

Despite the stupidity shown by the U.S. in apparently offering Israel's land on their behalf to terrorists, I wouldn't worry too much about it, Sandman. Israel will not compromise its own security for anything. I believe it would go to war with the U.S. before it compromised its own existence. Second, and more importantly, I'm sure those in the PLO will do everything in their power to destroy whatever deal the U.S. attempts to broker. It's in their interest to keep this conflict going, and to keep the defenseless rock-throwers on television fighting the mighty Israeli tanks. Makes for great press releases to wealthy donors in neighboring Arab countries.

On the board I run someone posted it. It is true. I will ask them to provide a link if they can.

link

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/02/league.bush/index.html

There ya go, they changed the title though.

Unfortunately I'm with you on this one Sandman, I am hoping things will change but at this point it seems like we are going towards the negotiation table versus the battlefield for fear of provoking an Islamic rebellion and of course rousing more fire from the Anti-US policy spitters throughout the world and here in the States (I really wish they'd move to a place like Afghanistan..they might realize that America is worth fighting for when they're about to get executed for having a public demonstration against government policy).

We are fighting a faction that has outright stated all Americans, military or civilian, man, woman or child are targets, they hate us and will do anything including suicide missions to inflict as much damage as possible. Regardless of liberal rhetoric regarding civil liberties, our internal policies, espescially against foreign nationals needs to be overhauled and those in question should be deported. Furthermore, the US cannot delegate tasks to other governments or make deals to get an Arab nation on our side for the sake of making it easier to get at some of these terorist groups. If the Islamic world doesn't like it; tough s#$t, if they decide they want a holy war then so be it. Their militaries are inferior to ours and if we would ever have the courage to use all of the assets the military has I believe we would dominate anyone that would stand against us.

Most Islamic states will always hate the US for being an Israeli ally, be jealous of our freedom and deep down inside, no matter what they say in a press conference out of fear, despise this country. As such, making a coalition with these types is just assinine, we have been attacked and need to take several steps to defend ourselves. Either you're walking those steps with us or we're running you over!!!

I don't normally listen to talk radio (see thread about Rules) but happened to have it on today. Discussion, such as it was, parallelled this thread. The older and more cynical callers all agreed with Sandman - as I do, though I wish it weren't so. Then more innocent people will die.

Anyone else remember Leon Klinghofer? He was an elderly New Yorker murdered by Palestinian pirates on the cruise ship "Achille Lauro" because he refused to grovel to them. He was wheelchair bound - they shot him anyway and threw him and his wheelchair overboard.

How about James Buckley? He was CIA station chief in Lebanon, kidnapped and tortured to death. The murderers sent an audio tape of the murder to our embassy.

Or the Navy diver beaten to death by Palestinian airplane hijackers? Or the more than 200 US Marines blown up in Lebanon by Hezbollah? Or the dead in Saudi, or on the USS Cole? Or the dead of September 11?

My friends, it's payback time. We shouldn't rest until we've liquidated ALL of our enemies and overthrown ALL of the governments that shelter them. I'm not terribly concerned about enemy civilians. They're part of the enemy war effort, just like the Germans and Japanese we cremated in the fire raids on Dresden and Tokyo in 1945. The squeamish among us will say that this will just breed more terrorists. Maybe so - I call that a target-rich environment - eventually we'll prune them back to a manageable level, and terrorize the rest.

Think we can't do it? Genghis Khan managed just fine with nothing more than swords and archery. We can do lots better - and should. If we don't, we've broken faith with those who have already given their lives.

Strelnikov

Stop, Strelnikov!

Sorry, this is too much for me. There is a lot of knowledge under the pickelhaube, Strelnikov, but where is your common sense?

Swatting flies with B-52 and Tomahawk missiles is not very clever, don't you think so? So you need a more target-rich environment. Would the whole Arab world do? Are you cynical enough to suggest a multi-million genocide, just to get rid of unpopular anti-Americanism? Are proposing a policy of "love me or get killed by me"? Do you think the other Atomic powers will just sit and watch America ripping this world apart?

And if you're proud of the destruction of Tokyo and Dresden for example, you're beyond any humanity. The attack on Dresden in February 1945 happened when between 40 and 80 thousand refugees were staying there, shortly before the end of the war. Dresden was a purely civilian target at that time. But it surely was 'target-rich' in your sense. So America just cremated them, huh?

Overreaction in the immediate aftermath of the horrible terrorist attack was quite understandable. But propaganda for an outright world war and multi-million genocide is something else. It is indeed bringing back the primitive hordes of Genghis Khan, and it means destroying all cultural progress we have made since then. Please do exert your right of free speech, but refrain from stating extremist views that are at least as despicable as any terrorists' views, here in this Forum.

It's like I said before...

They invade our space, and we fall back.
They assimalate entire worlds, and we fall back.
Not Again...
The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. And I will make them pay, for what they've done!!!

Captain Jean-Luc Picared re: fighting the Borg
Star Trek: First Contact

Well Mr Bush it's time for YOU to draw the line!!!

It's true

Truer words were never spoken Hal. If you go and kill a buntch of farmers or sheep herders or what ever they have over their just to get at the Talaban is wrong. I remeber watching old movies with John Wayn, and the USA used to come over the hill guns blazing. Men died for what they believed in then. If the American army just sits back lobbing Tom's at Afganastan, it will strengthen the suport for the Talaban. Simply because it makes the US look week. The UN has to go in and beat the Talaban on the ground.

Hal

There's a faction in elite American society that hates America. We're seeing them emerge from under their rocks now, blaming America for the murderous attack on our citizens and everything else too, including dandruff and hemorroids. They infest academe, the media, and the US State Department, and they never fail to infuriate me.

I don't favor swatting flies with B-52's. Nor have I suggested genocide, though the enemy have, when they talk about Israel. I have no doubt that they would attempt the same against Western Civilization generally if they thought they could manage it. As regards cultural progress, some of them have said they want to turn the clock back 1400 years to the Caliphate - or to the way they imagine it was, anyway.

The point I was trying to make is, that we've turned the other cheek to our enemies for far too long. We've risked the lives of our citizens and broken faith with our dead by so doing. We haven't won anyone's hearts and minds - rather, they think we're weak and lacking in resolve. It's well past time to hunt down everyone in arms against us and kill them, and to overthrow the governments that give them shelter. Nothing is gained by half measures, like leaving Saddam on his throne when we could have deposed him easily in 1991.

This country is at war, like it or not. The enemy won't let us just walk away. That inevitably means that innocents will suffer. Since that's the case, better theirs than ours.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, Hal. I have too much respect for you for that. Shoot me an email, and let's sort this out privately.

Strelnikov

Strelnikov,
Truer words have rarely been spoken.