Want to discuss - CIVILIZED - hypocricies within religious contexts

[Lazarus]

I simply would like to discuss the "double-sayings" that are mentioned not only in the Bible, but otherwise as well.

This is a CIVILIZED discussion, and all "I'm going to Hell", and other witty remarks may be kept to yourselves.

I enjoy discussing things like this with Mimi, and would like the chance to discuss these things here with you all....

Please, as your host, allow me to start things off....

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Love They Neighbor"


Let's analyze that one first....

That has nothing, I'm sure, to do with the barefoot blonde next door-

This saying is meant to say that you should love your fellow human being....

REGARDLESS of:
------------------
Sexual persuasion

Color

Creed

Beliefs

Race

Personal opinions

Whether or not they prefer 'lee or 'ler....

Seriously, tho....

Why would God want anyone to hate anyone else?

How many damning, disgraceful acts have been comitted in His name?

9/11

"Holy" Crusades

Spanish Inquizition

Waco, Texas

And who knows how many terrorist acts worldwide?

__________________________________________________ ________________

There.

I hope to keep this a CIVILIZED thread, and jokes are more than welcome, as I have been known to be snarky at times.

Please, just remember this:

We are created in His image, and to that end, I feel that God has a heck of a sense of humor-

Just look at the Platypus for proof of that-

And he is not the "Rule with an iron fist" Lord many have protrayed Him to be.

Am I grateful?

Hell, yes:

I am grateful for:

My children
Mimi

My renewed Faith following my oldest Daughter's death, as well as my heart attack

My being able, after frustrating years coping with this fetish, to find a place to call home, the TMF

For my health

etc, and so on.

But there you have it;


Let's us have a decent discussion on the forum for once, where EVERYONE is welcome to participate, and if all else fails, we can agree to disagree, and do it in a CIVILIZED manner.

Thanks....

The LazMan

[Double T]

Originally posted by Lazarus


How many damning, disgraceful acts have been comitted in His name?

9/11

"Holy" Crusades

Spanish Inquizition

Waco, Texas

And who knows how many terrorist acts worldwide?

I agree, Laz, many atrocious acts have been commited "In the name of God", but this usually proclaimed by the ones doing it. hiding behind the Almighty, claiming it's alright to do, because it's what God wants them to do. I'm sure they have no more a direct line to God than you or I do, and we don't do these things.

Kind of reminds my of "The Amittyville Horror". We're supposed to believe in ghosts and possesed houses, just because someone says so? Saying doesn't make it so, therefore, heinos acts in God's name are not, in fact, that, but what the group, community, individual want's us to believe "Hey, it's not my fault! God want's it this way!" Says who?

On the side, I appreciate your very sophisticated way of presenting this. People can disagree without being nasty, which, pretty much, accopmlishes nothing.

Anyway, that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

[leafstk]

To love your neighbour as yourself is abolutely a first principal of the Bible spelled out many times throughout the Old Testament. It is further touched upon by Christ in the beautitudes of Matthew 5. I absolutely agree. As Christ said, "Judge not, that thou may not be judged". The fact other people have misconstrued His word to act in what they think is "His Name", is beside the point. God mean't what He said as you pointed out. Fanatacism is a curse, and people it seems will always use it to their own purpose. It just further punctuates the weakness and greed of man and what it can do. God is the one true Judge and their day will come.

[Celtic_Emperor]

There now, you see? Was that so hard to create this thread? THANK YOU!

As for the thread, hell, I'm not going to disagree with you. Its all OUR FAULT. We have acted and presumped to have acted in the name of God or by His order and thats just down right sickening!

Nothing is God's fault, not a thing. It is we, as feeble, selfish little human beings that have created these problems.

God is the essence of life, and yet we work like busy little bees toward a different direction. When will we learn, just when will we learn?

And people wonder why so many people can't wait for the end of the world? Can you blame them? Look at us! We're degenerates! We've totally become un-godly as a race! If I were God I might have already smote the world!

But see, thats the thing, I'm not God. I'm a human being, and I have the limitation of a human. God is so perplexing yet so simple thats its too unfathomable to figure Him out. But we shouldn't try to. Life isn't about solving some mystery. As christians, its about following the commandments, faith, prayer, and acts of kindness and charity to others. Jesus lived in the service of others and led by example. Never once did he lie or cheat, and while thats an impossible standard to live up to, God doesn't expect us to be perfect. Thats not possible. And God isn't consumed with our sins either, but in our individual repentance of those sins.

I agree with the passages you've provided. How can I not?

God isn't pety, we are.

To quote reverend Charles Stanley of "In Touch Ministries" (which is a protestant service, by the way, and I'm a catholic but love this man and his teachings, choice of words, and speechs-

" We are being offered the gift of a loving God, who desires that you and I desire the best which he's prepared for us."

It really almost is as simple as that. Living a christian life isn't easy all the time. Its not supposed to be. But it doesn't need to be so needlessly complicated either. I'll admit that ALL churches of all religions have debased themselves from God in some way or another.

But I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with spiritual welfare. Thats what its about. My soul, my spirit, not some internal political dispute.

I do however appriciate the church, as it still remains pure and true to the word even though it is constantly rocked like a craddle or seems like it is playing to the beat of a different drum.

Whats important is that I know whom I serve, whom I'm indebted to, and whom I love with all my heart, my soul, and my passion. And I say now, more than ever, that that person is God, through and by the Holy Spirit and Jesus, the Christ.

In all bluntness, Satan can do whatever the hell he wants. He has permission. But lets just you and I remember who is really in charge, and let us not lose faith no matter what happens.

Yes, this was more of rant, and I do admit I can into this thread with aggrivation from another. But I mean well, and if thats not good enough for anyone that I'm sorry. Perhaps later, when I'm more composed I might be of more use in this thread.

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

Originally posted by Lazarus

Please, just remember this:

We are created in His image, and to that end, I feel that God has a heck of a sense of humor-

Just look at the Platypus for proof of that-


"I cannot persuade myself that a beneficient and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars" - Charles Darwin

[qjakal]

"Love They Neighbor"

:sowrong: Man, you need to meet some of mine.

The sentiment is good, as are nearly all of the tenets and theoretical guiding principles of religion(s)...it's the execution and organizational policies and procedures that are lacking. Having fallible beings in charge of ANY large privileged group leads to abuse and horrific actions eventually. My 2 cents is that organized religion was (until the advent of AOL) the greatest marketing coup ever to be perpetuated upon mankind. Spiritual leadership comes from within, not from another flawed member of our species who has been arbitrarily annointed into a position within an organization that has been artificially inflated into a social and political force in our civilizations society....

Think for yourself and reason out the attributes of afterlife and the associated method of attaining it, should it exist. The concept of omnipotence is contradictory in terms of prayers and worship, because if you accept the one premise, it follows that all else is ordained and inevitable. Hence, IF your God exisits your prayers are predetermined and act only as a solace for you as an individual to justify or rationalize your own behavior. There cannot be a cause and effect ratio unless you propose a "semi-omnipotent" being whose opinions can be swayed by your individual (or group in the case of an organized religion) activities or lack thereof...

Hey, all that being said, I hope there IS some form of God(s)/afterlife/continuing ed program, etc. I haven't finished nearly any of the things I'm interested in doing, to paraphrase a bold author badly...lol.

Good luck with the discussion.

Q

[august spies]

religion is full of hypocracies, thats what its used for, to condition people to accept hypocracies in politics to justify atrocities.


a boss in heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore if god did exist he would have to be abolished--bakunin

[the_Baron]

after sin entered God's perfect creation, this fallen world and all that dwell in it no longer reflect the perfection of their Creator. in fact, while Genesis tells us that Adam was created in God's image, we are then told that his offspring were created in "Adams's Image".

consequently, while the Church struggles on this side of Heaven, we will no doubt continue to sin. a congregation without sinners would be empty.

however, Christ has brought the Kingdom to us, and has conquered sin and death and satan. Christ will help us to begin to hate our sins and to perform more works of goodness that glorify His name. He will also help us to keep more steadfastly such commandments as "love thy neighbor".

remember, much of the world has not accepted the Gospel, and so, there is naturally infighting and hatred.

[Celtic_Emperor]

The problem is people love sin. Its their drink of choice, their poison.

The amasing thing is that God loves us more than we love ourselves and is all so willing to help us. But how many of us are content as we are? How many of us see no evil, speak no evil, and hear no evil but really do? For anyone to deny they are sinful would be to deny their humanity. And for anyone to doubt God cannot and would not forgive even the most miserable of wretches, then where is the faith?

I think what this boils down to is self-discovery and who God is to you. This is an answer we will never find in this lifetime. Just when we think we have God figured out we realize we know nothing about his being except by His word. But His word is the key, it is His communucation to us, as is prayer and meditation.

For one to say God does not speak to people obviously hasn't tried to hear him. And if they have, they were expecting instantanious results and were praying with their mind, not their heart. A commune with God is extrodinary. As a person spiritually develops for the better they gain a deeper understanding and appriciation for God's works and aims for us. While God Himself is the utlimate mystery we know His plans for us, and to deviate from that is to want nothing to do with Him. To make excuses is to deny His call.

Indeed mankind has warped His teaches, and deluted His messeges. But the greater good of us know better. We are where we are supposed to be. God realizes we worship, pray, and give thanks amidst strife and division, but His rewards for us are great. He gives us the tools we need to not only make it through the mess, but come out on top, and with the pride and honor that comes in knowing you are a child of God.

Different people have different agendas, power is abused, power is gained.

But let us not forget that Jesus instituted the church. And as long as we follow HIS church, than the uncertainty, doubt, and fear for self-preservation will be taken care of for us.

In God we gain strength and courage. Let us not be conflicted, but rather know what we believe to be true, and work with that toward the life we were meant to live.

A true christian is a true christian, and no matter how much the face of a religion may change, the word of God and His set examples for us will not. That is something we can take refuge and comfort in.

[Haltickling]

What strikes me most about this noble bible word is the fact that it is ignored so often, many times replaced by another bible word: An eye for an eye.

People are expected to love their neighbor, particularly if you are their neighbor. But if somebody hurts them or their beloved ones, they refer to the Old Testament, justify their revenge with "an eye for an eye", and simply forget about Jesus who taught his followers to turn the other cheek, and to love even our enemies.

As far as I know, Christianity is named after Jesus Christ, not after the vengeful, often cruel God of the Old Testament. Jesus sacrificed himself to form a new pact between God and mankind, sealed with his own blood. A new pact means some changes to the old one, and Jesus showed us how we should live up to that new pact.

However, people continue to kill and maim and cheat in the name of Christianity. This is one of the reasons why I have turned away from the Christian (in fact from all organized) faith. IMHO, it is a lot of hipocrisy.

[Celtic_Emperor]

I really understand where you are coming from, and so I can understand you. But I ask Hal, why leave atall?

Me for example, I haven't left, and I have no desire to. And I'm a member of the Catholic Church inparticular, the one largest sect of christianity that is the most pronounced and yet heavily bombarded and scrutinized.

If you were me, are you saying you would leave just because of that? Isn't that just turning tail and running away from the problem? Would not God want me to stick it out and remain faithful in spite of what may or may not be going on around me? Just give up? Just walk away? Churches may be something different nowadays, but it is still God's church. Should I therefore abandon it? Its like a soldier dropping his gun and surrendering to the enemy in a battle which otherwise will have been hard faught, but won.

When people with your sentiment give that as the reason for leaving the church it baffles me. Being a part of the church doesn't mean being a part of any of it's corruption. You can choose to believe in God and worship Him and follow Him the way He has instructed us to in spite of any changes. He speaks of this very issue in scripture.

No one in a church is going to put a gun to your head and force you to conform. When you are there you are free to worship at the level you choose. Even if you may be sitting next to a hypocrite, whats stopping you from experiencing God with other people that are like you? And how will you know who is who? Would you or did you actually seek community?

I'm sorry, but Christianity is not the lost cause you and so many people see it to be. If you have Christ and you are following him, theres no reason to leave. If you say its just the principle of it, and thats why, then why not remain with that same intensity and use any disdain you have for the way things are going to fuel and further cement your ties to Jesus and his church? You aren't selling your soul to the devil or selling out by remaining, not that I'm saying you are saying that. And you most certainly will have gotten your just rewards for remaining faithful dispite whats happening.

How can anyone say they are in search of God and His peace and love when they are constantly running away from it?

[Haltickling]

Celtic, there were more reasons to leave. The discrepancy between the words and the action was only the trigger to more thoughts. I found that this world can be explained perfectly well without God. It is even more logical to explain it that way, without the breach in the logic chain which a logic-defying concept like a God certainly is.

It would be too complicated to explain this in detail within this thread. I have already stated some of my opinions in another thread:
http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2918

That's where I ramble about the difference between God, religion, and church, about good and evil, the devil, hell and heaven. I also included some views of other religions.

I only chimed into this thread because of the catchwords "love thy neighbor"; for the sake of this thread, I didn't wish to expand my arguments beyond this topic too far.

And I certainly wouldn't want to convince anybody to leave his faith. Faith in itself is not a bad thing. But I react very allergic towards proselytizing and sermons...

[JoBelle]

Don't take this wrong....but,the problem I have with people who dissect religious texts in order to disprove them is simple. They don't seem to comprehend that there is a little thing called faith that some have that allows them to believe in God as so chosen by their own spiritual leadign....and along the way they can share with others whom they understand to be less than perfect like themselves.

I've found in my short life of 32 years that people put too much emphasis on other peoples' behaviors when dicussing religion. None can prove or disprove "God." It's faith. I truely believe that everyone on the planet will one day wake up and find themselves in a position where all they have is faith in something they always viewed as "make believe." Bless you if you haven't been there YET. But you WILL be. One day. And on that day, it won't matter what the hypocrite next door does after the weekend services. I know I didn't care. And on that day, you just might change your views forever.

By he way, Q....prayer and worship ....??? Hmmm...I've always related it in terms of my son. He can tell me I'm a great mom (worship). He can ask for a new toy (prayer). He can throw a fit if I tell him no. But guess what! Sometimes he will get his way...and he thinks it's his asking that did it. Nope...I knew every step and every ploy. I still like to hear I'm a great mommy! ;)

There are 6 billion people on this planet alone and each one of us seems to hold our thought processes as natural brilliance that others just do not "get." We each seem to have this whole religion thing all figured out. Deny or believe is each person's choice. I find it interesting that anthropologists have found what seems to be evidence of belief in after life as part of human understanding. Skeletal remains have been found of early man with flowers and food buried with them. Go figure. Seems we're wired for it.

All in all, what I guess I'm rambling about is that I find NO problem sharing faith and spirituality with other people inside the confines of organized religion. I just simply have to remember that I will not and SHOULD NOT agree with every other human being. just as I wouldn't in politics, grocery stores or movies. And since religious texts of all faiths were written by men whether inspired by God or not, I will have to carry my faith without worry that two of those writers may have had different views. AND that I don't have to scream like a scalded cat everytime someone disses my outlook.

*shrug* Ah well. I hope you each find what gets you by. I'm sure the big guy upstairs will understand no matter what you neighbors might say.
Jo
My apologies for the typos...just spent too many hours in the pool and I'm worn out! :D

[Celtic_Emperor]

Well, thats ultimately your choice. I suppose if you must know everything science is the way to go, but never at any time did God have to be about an explaination of the world, the universe, or life. Its not so much an explaination as it is a state of being.

We needn't stray or go elsewhere when we know the facts of life and of the world as common sense and common knowledge. Research and study is food for the brain, God is food for the soul. Its possible to get by in life with either or. Its even possible to get by with neither. But I would feel such a person would be at a huge disadvantage in the quality of fullness of their life. If merely 'making it by' is what someone wants, I pity them, as there is so much more to it than that, and it not needlessly be complicated.

EDIT: This is directed at Hal.

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ Jo Belle- Thanks for that post. :)

[qjakal]

By he way, Q....prayer and worship ....??? Hmmm...I've always related it in terms of my son. He can tell me I'm a great mom (worship). He can ask for a new toy (prayer). He can throw a fit if I tell him no. But guess what! Sometimes he will get his way...and he thinks it's his asking that did it. Nope...I knew every step and every ploy. I still like to hear I'm a great mommy! ;)


You were definitely among the hypothetical semi-omnipotent beings I was speaking about, Ms Joby. I agree that any trace of divinity or spark of faith I have ever experienced has been found in my childs eyes. I'll do my best to enable her to find her way spiritually despite my own conflicts in this area.

I can wait patiently at this point to have a reckoning with any powers that be who may lurk in the afterlife. I'm confident of at least a draw in a fair discussion...

Q

[Cosmo_ac]

Ah...God and faith...you know, i'm somewhat devided. I'm truely not sure if i pity or Envy those with faith. In some ways, it must be nice to believe in the Bible and god, to be able to say without hesitation what will happen when they die, why there here, yadda yadda yadda. It' must be very nice to be that secure.


However, i see too many things wrong with the bible and "God" to want to praise him. First, i want to be clear about something. I've never read the bible from cover to cover, so i'm sure i don't know everything that takes place in it. However, i do know some of the things, and one of those things is i don't think i could worship such a genocidal, petty, pathetic god as the one in the bible.

Now, you might wonder why i say these things. Well, mainly there from Bible stories. FOr example, lets take a look at Sodom and Gramora. God din't like what was going on there, and destroyed the entire city, everybody in there, gone. He floods the world, sparing only Noah and his family. He kills all of Egypts first born, despite the fact many people have no choice as to what Pharo does, then makes Moses and the Jews walk the desert for 40 years, because Moses made a claim he made water come from a rock he struck using his +4 devine enchanted staff (For sale at your nearest AD&D shop ;) ). Then, he makes Moses Kill his onw brother, for worshipping another god then God, because Gods been fucking them all around 40 years! And when they finally arrive at the Land of Glory, Moses Dies.

And there's so much more. God takes men that love him, worship him, and makes them go through hell to prove a point. He has people kill in his name, but because he's god, it's ok.



I also dislike the whole "God has a plan for all of us" concept. I mean, thats the rule right? If you believe in god, then you feel he has a plan for all of us. So, does that mean the child molester down the street, Molested that child because it was gods will? Did the person on death row kill that man, because god willed it? And, if god does have a plan for all of us, how can we sin? If god has already decided our actions for us, then we're simply actors, acting out a script the big guy wrote, so how can we be punished for doing something we were destined to do, not by our choice, but his?

Now, thats not to say i don't have some faith. However, the god i worship, is a hell of a lot more mercyful and loving then the one of the bible. Because the Bible god isn't a god of infinite mercy. He's a god of "Conditional Mercy". If you don't follow his rules, or ask for his forgiviness, Or even choose that faith to believe in, even if you've never even heard of that faith where you are and never had the choice to take it up, your SOL. Frankly, in my opinion, a god of Infinite Mercy and love, would forgive you no matter what you did, despite wheather you wanted that love and forgivenss or not.

[Double T]

Originally posted by Lazarus


"Love They Neighbor"

That has nothing, I'm sure, to do with the barefoot blonde next door-

jokes are more than welcome

So, I CAN love the barefoot blonde next door?

Wow! Almost makes me wish there was one!

[JoBelle]

I just have to say that I love all the different "takes" on religion.

I've always been a bit flabbergasted though that everyone automatically goes to the Bible when "religious texts" are mentioned. There is more than one religion. More than one interpretation of God. Just a curious thought.

Please continue.
Jo

[BigJim]

Originally posted by JoBelle
Don't take this wrong....but,the problem I have with people who dissect religious texts in order to disprove them is simple. They don't seem to comprehend that there is a little thing called faith that some have that allows them to believe in God as so chosen by their own spiritual leadign....and along the way they can share with others whom they understand to be less than perfect like themselves.

I've found in my short life of 32 years that people put too much emphasis on other peoples' behaviors when dicussing religion. None can prove or disprove "God." It's faith. I truely believe that everyone on the planet will one day wake up and find themselves in a position where all they have is faith in something they always viewed as "make believe." Bless you if you haven't been there YET. But you WILL be. One day. And on that day, it won't matter what the hypocrite next door does after the weekend services. I know I didn't care. And on that day, you just might change your views forever.

By he way, Q....prayer and worship ....??? Hmmm...I've always related it in terms of my son. He can tell me I'm a great mom (worship). He can ask for a new toy (prayer). He can throw a fit if I tell him no. But guess what! Sometimes he will get his way...and he thinks it's his asking that did it. Nope...I knew every step and every ploy. I still like to hear I'm a great mommy! ;)

There are 6 billion people on this planet alone and each one of us seems to hold our thought processes as natural brilliance that others just do not "get." We each seem to have this whole religion thing all figured out. Deny or believe is each person's choice. I find it interesting that anthropologists have found what seems to be evidence of belief in after life as part of human understanding. Skeletal remains have been found of early man with flowers and food buried with them. Go figure. Seems we're wired for it.

All in all, what I guess I'm rambling about is that I find NO problem sharing faith and spirituality with other people inside the confines of organized religion. I just simply have to remember that I will not and SHOULD NOT agree with every other human being. just as I wouldn't in politics, grocery stores or movies. And since religious texts of all faiths were written by men whether inspired by God or not, I will have to carry my faith without worry that two of those writers may have had different views. AND that I don't have to scream like a scalded cat everytime someone disses my outlook.

*shrug* Ah well. I hope you each find what gets you by. I'm sure the big guy upstairs will understand no matter what you neighbors might say.
Jo
My apologies for the typos...just spent too many hours in the pool and I'm worn out! :D

I could do the usual thing and respond to each coment in kind, but sod it...

A1! :upsidedow

[BigJim]

Originally posted by JoBelle
I just have to say that I love all the different "takes" on religion.

I've always been a bit flabbergasted though that everyone automatically goes to the Bible when "religious texts" are mentioned. There is more than one religion. More than one interpretation of God. Just a curious thought.

Please continue.
Jo

I know I certainly use the Bible more often than any other text Jo, but that's mainly because most of the readers here are Americans and Christianity is the predominant religion of America, whatever it's denomination. I have used quotes from the Vedas, Koran, Talmud and other more pagan texts though. I just use the Bible as my first port of call for context's sake. :)

[areenactor]

all that we read in the various bibles, talmuds, korans, etc., is that they are all writen by men! god didn't write them!
they are writen by men with a purpose. they (the writers) claime they are putting "gods word" to paper. how do we know it's true?
because we are told it's true? because we are told that if we don't believe it's true we will go to "their" hell?

faith is great. but have faith in a holey spirit, not the b.s., and fantasy put forth by religions.

you can be a good heaven deserving person, and never step foot in a house of worship. or praying to some one elses idea of who god is!

steve

[crydun]

Originally posted by leafstk
As Christ said, "Judge not, that thou may not be judged". The fact other people have misconstrued His word to act in what they think is "His Name", is beside the point. God mean't what He said as you pointed out. Fanatacism is a curse, and people it seems will always use it to their own purpose. It just further punctuates the weakness and greed of man and what it can do. God is the one true Judge and their day will come.


That's because, as you pointed out, Fanaticism is not of God. Rather, it is an evil device of Satan's that is played out through the minds of people willing and/or desparate to fall for it.

[crydun]

On that note, I have been led to post this:

The Joy of Simple Faith

Scholars analyze your very existence
They look for evidence to back up your Word,
I don’t heed warnings of hoaxes or jinxes
Cause I have the joy of simple faith.

I need not a scientist to tell me of your life
From your birth to the Resurrection
I know that you died for me on the cross
And saved me from my human affliction.

Father; forgive me if I ever doubt
The love that you gave to me
I already know what salvation’s about
Cause your holy word sets me free.

Let soothsayers say what they will
About your heavenly grace
I have the promise of eternity still
Cause I have the joy of simple faith!

Written by Crystal

[BigJim]

Originally posted by areenactor
all that we read in the various bibles, talmuds, korans, etc., is that they are all writen by men! god didn't write them!
they are writen by men with a purpose. they (the writers) claime they are putting "gods word" to paper. how do we know it's true?
because we are told it's true? because we are told that if we don't believe it's true we will go to "their" hell?

faith is great. but have faith in a holey spirit, not the b.s., and fantasy put forth by religions.

you can be a good heaven deserving person, and never step foot in a house of worship. or praying to some one elses idea of who god is!

steve

Superb sentiments Steve. Longfellow couldn't have put it better. :)

[BigJim]

Originally posted by crydun
That's because, as you pointed out, Fanaticism is not of God. Rather, it is an evil device of Satan's that is played out through the minds of people willing and/or desparate to fall for it.

Crydun and I rarely share opinions when it comes to religion, but she is bang on the money with this one!

Hun, you and I would define the Devil in two different ways, but you're absoloutely right. Fanatascism is a terrible thing that tars decent people with a foul brush. A lot of people express a loving spirituality through their Christianity/Islamic/whatever beliefs, and it's sad that they are stereotyped with the Osama's and Spanish Inquisition's of this world.

[crydun]

Originally posted by BigJim
Crydun and I rarely share opinions when it comes to religion, but she is bang on the money with this one!

Hun, you and I would define the Devil in two different ways, but you're absoloutely right. Fanatascism is a terrible thing that tars decent people with a foul brush. A lot of people express a loving spirituality through their Christianity/Islamic/whatever beliefs, and it's sad that they are stereotyped with the Osama's and Spanish Inquisition's of this world.

gives BigJim a big hug* you're still my British Velvet Teddy Bear!!!

[BigJim]

Originally posted by crydun
gives BigJim a big hug* you're still my British Velvet Teddy Bear!!!


Bless ya.

(((((((Crystal)))))))

[crydun]

Originally posted by BigJim
Bless ya.

(((((((Crystal)))))))


Likewise, my ticklish little Brit!!

[leafstk]

Originally posted by crydun
Likewise, my ticklish little Brit!!

There's one ticklish little Canadian who would like to thank you for your posts as well, Crydun :D :Kiss2:

[Ticklemmmeeeeee]

Lazarus...I too love discussing this stuff...you're blessed to have Mimi to discuss it with:)

First I will say that it was hypocracy surrounding religion, namely christianity (a false view of what that means by people who don't understand it themselves) that always (prior to a year ago) turned me so off to religion that I cared so little about it all I resented atheists for giving something I thought didn't exist, so much attention...tragic to reflect upon.

Anyway, praise God that someone loved me enough to tell me the truth in an intelligent way....that said, here are a few thoughts to add to what I deem an interesting thread:)

Everyone has a world view of religion or what they believe...even if it is unbelief (takes more faith to be an atheist than a Christian:)

Anyway, I believe every person in the world has a world view. What I mean by this is that personal observations have been made about the world, its problems, the ultimate questions of origins, etc. And around this set of observations is wrapped a viewpoint that ties together and explains the observations. This is a world view. What are some facts about world views that people have?

First, world views come in many colors. There is the theistic view, deistic view, pantheistic view, and even those who claim no world view, but to simply exist and "go with the flow," have a "chaotic"world view.

Second, all world views have one major thing in common and that is they all are acts of faith and not results of absolute proof.

Third, world views also have one other thing in common. They all attempt to explain observables. For example, design in nature is an admitted fact. The world view of the Biblical writers and even the Islamic writers explain such design as an act of creation by a Supreme Being. The naturalistic world view explains it as a result of mere chance. Both are faiths wrapped around observations.


Whose view is correct?

How do you "prove" a world view? First, a world view must have explanatory power to tie together a large set of observations. Does it explain why specific things happen/not happen in the world? Does it answer the ultimate questions such as a person's origin, purpose and destiny? These were all important unanswered questions I had that led me to want to know once and for all what I believe.

Second, does it continue to touch base with accepted fact? That is, upon further examination, does it seem to be logical with more observables? For example, is there any factual base for the "Tower of Babel" or the city of "Ur"? Is there any factual base for the Mormon view of history as presented in the Book of Mormon? How the written records of those holding specific world views check out with archeological findings could help firm up one view over another.

Third, is the view coherent? Does the whole system have internal consistency. That is, when the Bible is studied as a whole, with different writers of different backgrounds forming its content, is there is a unity in message and purpose seen? Are there internal contradictions? (This does not mean that everyone cannot use different words in describing an event or teaching or even write with differing degrees of precision.) It is a well known fact that no one has been able to show a bona fide contradiction in the Bible. Those who have tried have been ably answered. Such is not the case with the Mormon writings (cf. Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, by Gerald and Sandra Tanner).

Also, the idea of unity does not mean that there are not some "fuzzy areas" in the system. For example, our present understanding of chemistry is based on a core of accepted truths. But there are some areas that are not clear and are really "above and beyond" the ability of most chemists to understand. Chemists call this the "land of nebulosity." More thought and research may bring out new truths that tie up the present loose ends. But none of this argues against an overall internal unity in the discipline. The same is true of any other world view. The existence of "fuzzy areas" do not argue against its overall consistency. In Christianity, the inability to comprehend the "Trinity" does not argue against it.:)


Why accepting a world view is an act of faith...

First, because a person does not have the time or resources to examine each and every world view, selecting one must be an act of faith. This also means that a person could lose faith in one view and accept another that explains things better. This is exactly what happened to the Tanners listed above. They lost faith in Mormonism because they found outright cover-ups in Mormon history etc. So, after accepting by faith a specific world view, one must constantly examine it in light of known facts and its ability to explain those facts.

Second, as per the biblical world view, it tells one straight out that it is a walk of faith and not sight. For if the God of the Bible is the "true God" then this is the precise way to please Him (Heb 11). So, we sit about where Theophilus sat (Luke 1:3). Our faith must come from hearing testimony and not seeing attendant miracles (Rom 10:17).

The blessing comes by faith, not sight (John 20:29). It is faith from start to finish (Rom 1:17).


The problem with faith is this...

Much is made by skeptics of the fact that those believing in the bible "walk by faith." We all "walk by faith and not sight" in even the acceptance of "common knowledge." For example, in everyday life most of us "goose-step" to what "they say." You know the story . . . "they say" that eating rice with oranges will give you a headache . . . so we avoid that practice. "They say" you cannot mix motor oils so we make sure that isn't done. "They say" oat bran helps prevent cancer . . . so, we buy oat bran. Even the most die-hard skeptic can be found at the grocery store buying corn flakes with oat bran in it. And on it goes. Another example is from the teaching of Chemistry. Most all chemistry books report that the nucleus of the atom was "discovered" by Rutherford by shooting "bullets" at gold foil. It is doubtful that the writer of the text actually observed the event. It is even doubtful that his teacher observed it. But we all believe that someone saw it and made an accurate report of the event.

Our position in chemistry is that of belief in testimony as per most of what is accepted as fact. Further, about all anyone can say that would not involve belief would be "I am a something . . . but I know not what." This is where "walking by absolute certainty" leads a person. And you don't find many people running out into the front of an oncoming Truck screaming, "It's only a dream. It's only a dream!!" (I don't do that anymore,lol...j/k. Seriously, most everyone tends to believe that what's "out there" is real and not imagined. We all walk by faith and what we accept as "fact" is more than likely based on the testimony of some remote source.


Hhere is how the biblical world view can be tested...

First, does it touch base with accepted historical fact? That means, if it mentions a city, people, king, etc., is there anything that backs up the claim? For example, Ezra 4:10 mentions the name of a "good Osnapper" (RSV). Did this person exist? Is there any "out there" stuff on him? Yes. The name itself is an Aramaic form of Ashurbanipal, the once King of Assyria. Around 1852-53, Hormuzd Rassam discovered the famous Ashurbanipal library. Here, the Old Testament writings "touched base" with reality. Another interesting example is that the river Ulai was not known except by being mentioned in the book of Daniel (8:2). Later it was found in the Assyrian inscriptions associated with Ashurbanipal.

Second, the Biblical view is that at one time in man's early history that a great flood wiped out all except one man and his family and what animals they could save. Common sense, says that this story would have been handed down for generations to come. It is also reasonable that as men drifted away from God that the stories would become corrupted. It would be expected that records of the story would have been kept that would actually pre-date Genesis.

Within the Ashurbanipal library were found writings that describe a man who was separated from humanity by his good qualities. He was instructed to build a boat. Exact details were given to him to build the boat. Other people and animals were to enter the boat and those left outside would be destroyed. Birds were released to see if the waters had receded (doves and ravens). Finally after coming out of the boat a sacrifice was made by the man to the gods and a "sweet smell" went up to the gods (cf. Gen 8:21). This all sounds familiar right?...lol... Of course, the existence of this story in a pagan land does not prove the Bible story true, but how it originated is clearly explained by the Biblical world view. It is actually an "undesigned" coincidence that something in the Bible and in the Assyrian library would cross paths. This makes our world view firmer.

Third, another interesting item in the biblical picture is that before the flood men seemed to live much longer than those after the flood.

Does this find any verification in archeology? The Sumerian Prism is an artifact of very early civilization in Mesopotamia, the cradle of civilization, according to the biblical view. There is a statement on the block of rock (prism) that says that a flood swept over the earth. Then the rock is divided by a line into two sections -- pre-flood and post-flood. The life spans of those kings before and after the flood are listed. And there is an obvious difference. Those before the flood lived decidedly longer. This is a convicting piece of evidence that even points to a real "flood event."

Fourth, there are many, many more places that the Bible mentions that can be verified. Interestingly, such is not the case with the world view contained in the Book of Mormon. Mormon scholar and defender of the faith, Thomas Stuart Ferguson, spent a good deal of his life trying to find something that would give credence to the history portrayed in the Book of Mormon. His conclusion? There are no artifacts, etc., "because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of dirt-archeology." Note this contrast with the Bible.

We believe that our world view is more sure than the Mormon view because of the factual support our faith has.


Conclusion...(aren't ya glad?..lol) :)

What is my point in all of this? First, to show that everyone has a personal view of things that wraps around what they have observed and continue to observe. I can't help it I am a die hard behaviorist!!!...lol. Second, that such a view is an act of faith and not a result of absolute proof. And that those who want to say that they walk by proof and not faith should be challenged on that point. (But that's another thread,lol. ) Third, that some world views are more of an intelligent conclusion because they rest on much more reasonable foundations. This is the case with the biblical view compared to the Mormon view. I'm not picking on Mormons btw :)

Cool thread and interesting conversation....:)
peace n love...
~tm

:xpulcy: :wub: :bouncybou :upsidedow :dog: :smilestar

[crydun]

Originally posted by leafstk
There's one ticklish little Canadian who would like to thank you for your posts as well, Crydun :D :Kiss2:


well, we'll have to see what we can do, sweet thing. ;) I'm glad you like!!

[Mimi]

Excellent post, Ticklemeeeee. You raise some very interesting and convincing points. Thank you for the wonderful read.

Mimi

[Ticklemmmeeeeee]

You're quite welcome Mimi:) Thank u for reading it...I get carried away,lol.:)