Calling all Christian Believers

[shylittleme]

i still can't get a grasp on this. But why do people still in Life and online as well need a Reason and Real living prove that Christ is Real and that he actually Died on the Cross for all of man kinds sin?

i mean i've talked to many non - believers online but they always seem to want all this Prove that Christ was Real and that he lived. not matter how much prove and verses we as Believers point them to they will never believe or if they do believe they don't want to live the Life of a Christian. it just simply comes down to weather your gonna live your Life for Jesus Christ or not. no if ands or butts about it.

[Cosmo_ac]

Shy, if i told you Verses from the Hindu religion, would you believe in Hindu? Or Buddha? If i told you any of there stories, would you join there faith? On a side note, i made a post on Lazarus Religious Discussion thread. Some of those comments i made apply here, i think.

[tommytikl]

Originally posted by shylittleme
i still can't get a grasp on this. But why do people still in Life and online as well need a Reason and Real living prove that Christ is Real and that he actually Died on the Cross for all of man kinds sin?

i mean i've talked to many non - believers online but they always seem to want all this Prove that Christ was Real and that he lived. not matter how much prove and verses we as Believers point them to they will never believe or if they do believe they don't want to live the Life of a Christian. it just simply comes down to weather your gonna live your Life for Jesus Christ or not. no if ands or butts about it.

However, it is not YOU who make the change in their lives but Christ...you lay the seed, you do not reap the harvest!!
Non-believers are but blind to the truth until it is revealed to them!
Look here 2 Corinthians 4:3-6.

[shylittleme]

Originally posted by tommytikl
However, it is not YOU who make the change in their lives but Christ...you lay the seed, you do not reap the harvest!!
Non-believers are but blind to the truth until it is revealed to them!
Look here 2 Corinthians 4:3-6.


Good point tommy. that clears things up for me Thanks

[shylittleme]

Originally posted by cosmo_ac
Shy, if i told you Verses from the Hindu religion, would you believe in Hindu? Or Buddha? If i told you any of there stories, would you join there faith? On a side note, i made a post on Lazarus Religious Discussion thread. Some of those comments i made apply here, i think.


yeah i did read most of your Post in Lazrus thread i Tracked it down its on the 2 page i think. That verse that tommytikl just posted down below applys to you as well Cosmo_ac

[Swimmingbird]

I'm not trying to stir any bad emotions here, or belittle the Christian church in any way, I'm a big believer in freedom of religion. But I'd like to point out that believers as well as non-believers are blind until the truth is revealed to them. No one can truly declare themself correct in something so enigmatic. No one has the insight or sagacity. In any case, I believe that is some of the appeal to religion, it's faith. Faith that this ultimately more important existance is out there. One does not have or need proof, one simply believes.

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'll say again, faith and religion are married to eachother. One cannot grow in a community without some kind of religion, church, or group.

Church is all about like-minded people with the same faith coming together to worship God in song, testament and by reciting the Word. In the catholic church, there are also many more ceremonies and special events which really capitalize on some of the very wonderful aspects of our christian faith. :)

Church is about community. It creates togetherness, wherein we share a common goal and bond through the same Lord and God.

To answer a point made, God is NOT so enigmatic. Nor is He distant or His existance unsure and debateble. I have the answers. I have the proof. I know the who, the what, the when, the where, the how, and yes, even the why.

God works through His people, He is in them. He explains everything to the heart and so we know with our minds as well. By living the Christian life we recieve our answers and our proof, yes, even the physical. We see the results of our handywork, and they bear fruit, God willing. With every self-revelation we grow closer to Him, and with answers and truths accompanying.

God is just as much a part of our everyday living as anything else. He's a constant. There is not a moment He is not there.

This isn't to say that brotherhood and good will toward your fellow man is what God is, and that these acts of kindness ARE Him, but rather, they are His proof, and validation as much as His intentions and His own good will. He is not just a figure of speech, nor are these good things symolic of a God that doesn't exist. God does exist in very real ways, and aside from being His own entity, He resides in all of our hearts, christian or not.

We cannot hear Him however if our ears are closed, and we cannot see Him if our eyes are shut. Those that are not of the Lord cannot understand what a Christian is saying. To them, its like jibberish. Its confusing, perplexing, complicated and unsettling and even troublesome. They cannot understand what we do and they feel a need to avoid us, out of fear of the unknown. They cannot feel what we are feeling.

Its almost as if they are under a spell. The spell cannot be broken unless the person has a self-revelation or others proclaim the Word and by the Grace of God it gets through to them.

God is truth. People avoid it because they've got their own agendas. Those that don't believe in God don't because they refuse to believe there is anything beyond their control and existance. Humans are a domineering lot. We feel that anything we can control and manipulate is a relevation in and of itself. For the athiest, God isn't ideal or convienient. He cannot be mastered, so He isn't sought. Well, life can't be mastered either. He is above us, rather than below us, and that disgusts some people, alot of people. Initially, believing in God is believing and accepting that you are small in the greater scheme of things. In the face of the universe, you are but a pebble, a speck at that. The second step is in realizing that God doesn't care about that. He loves you and He created you exactly as you are for a reason. He gave you free will and free action for a reason.

Your self revelation will come sooner or later. I believe, that either in life or in death ALL people come to terms with the Living God whom has created them. And in this life, He gives us countless opportunities and moments to know Him. He works through His people amidst corruption and a world full of hate. Its all a matter of siezing an opportunity and taking advantage of such a moment for a non-believer. Such is the point in which there is a change if they will there to be one for the better.

All people inherently know God, its just a matter of finding Him again.

[Swimmingbird]

Well, I agree with you, God is not enigmatic. However, many people believe God has conciousness, that it is a supreme seeks our happiness or wishes us to behave a certain way. These beliefs are fine to me, and I encourage everyone to find something greater than themself in life. Upon a grander view of all human beliefs, God does become enigmatic, for if there can be only one correct answer, which one do we choose? Not everyone has the same God, and wether or not you believe someone is wrong will neither prove him wrong or right. Only truth has the power to do so, and I agree with you again, God is truth. But which God? What's important is that we try to become the best person we can following that greater something.

Once there were two scholars talking about the same subject. The first scholar began explaining his thoughts and findings, and throughout his explaination the second scholar would interject, "Ah yes, that's what I found as well. Actually, I think it's more like this..." The first scholar began to serve tea, he poured tea into the second scholar's cup until it flowed over the brim and ran onto the table. The second scholar shouted, "Enough! No more will go in." The first scholar replied, "Yes, like this cup, you are full your own wisdom and will accept nothing else. If you don't first empty your cup, how can you taste my wisdom?"

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'm glad to see you agree. And I can appriciate the point you make at the end there. Yes, but its not about proving one God is better or real over the other.

I'd like to believe that there is in fact only one God, though He represents Himself differently according to race, tongue and culture. While this would all seem like one massed contradiction and these differences create hostilities at times, I think it makes sense in that if there is no struggle to find personal truth and real truth, and theres nothing but one way to see it, then you will have settled on what you know too soon in life (or what you think you know).

In order for people to be curious there has to be diversity. A long time friend of the family, whose known me since I was a very young child is a buddist. Now, I don't think he's a practing buddist, but I nonetheless find nothing wrong with anything he would say about it. Buddha seems alot like Jesus to me, but both are represented in two different ways to two different peoples.

The christian bibles says, in the book of revelations, that all people will come to know God and that those that are written in the Book of Life will be of all the different peoples of the world all giving praise to the same God. Now, this could mean that ultimately God is exactly as He is in the chrstian bible or God is seen the same way in the end of our mortal journey. I believe both are true.

And to that end, I believe that God represents Himself in many ways. Though its easy to confuse the pagan gods and graven images and idols as gods when they are not. I personally see alot of Jesus in Buddha, and alot of Buddha in Jesus. Although I believe in Jesus and not in Buddha, I believe both are a positive God to believe in, and that the two are interchangable.

I believe such holiness can come from only one being. For there to be any others would create strife in the heavens and things simply could not work and would not with gods contradicting and fighting amongst themselves and foiling eachother's plans all the time. Thats why I don't believe paganism even works in theory. Theres too much confusion and strife.

With God and Buddha there is no such strife.

The angels and saints are often mistaken for gods in their own right, but even they are under the one true Power.

Again, I believe there to be only one God, whom for reasons known entirely up to Him represents Himself in different ways to different people so that they might understand better in their own way.

"All roads lead to Rome."

I think the same is true for God when it comes to who He really is. Whether you were right or wrong about Him in your lifetime doesn't matter. If you are in His presense in the end and join Him in paradise, you obviously did something right. LOL. ^___^

[Swimmingbird]

Wow, well put. I think we're on the same page. And this is what I meant by saying our Gods were similar on the Praise the Lord thread, though I stopped posting because I thought a few people found it disrespectful.

I agree with everything you had to say, so I won't repeat any of it. That was really great.

[Celtic_Emperor]

I see. I only said what I said because I thought the non-faithful and non prayerful posts were unnecessary and were the ones that were disrepectful toward the purpose of the thread. They were outside comments not tailored for the thread, but for something else that didn't belong to it and wasn't even an issue or topic. Never at any one time did I or anyone imply that only christians could post there or that different types of prayers could be offered. Anyone that has assumed or thought that has been mistaken. I'm not so narrow minded to think that God is not universal and only cares about christians. If what I believe is true, and there is only one God, and to everyone else who believes in another is worshipping the one in the same, then it only makes more sense for their to be diversity and unity through that diversity.

I'm not simply saying this so that we can work around our differences. I'm saying it because that what I truely believe. In the greater scheme of things God knows what He's doing. Its all about faith.

I'm glad to see we could find common ground, my friend, and that I was able to explain how I feel. ^__^

[the_Baron]

sometimes people who will be brought to faith must first intellectually grasp and accept the facts. if you can prove that Christ lived, died on the cross, and rose again - well then you have to accept the Gospel message.

[TklDuo-Ann]

Just tossing in something that tends to be quoted a lot...

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't believe, no explanation is possible."

None of us will ever know the entirety of truth until we look it in the face. But, we need to strive for that truth in our own lives and attempt to live according to what it teaches us. That's true for everyone. For me as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the Truth...the ultimate and complete truth. So, for me, personally, to follow the truth is to follow Him.

Ann

[Cosmo_ac]

What type of answer is that Shy? See, this is why you can't talk with religious people about religion. You make several points, and they just shut there ears and sing a little mantra about how there right, and your wrong.

previous arguement: http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=44509&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

[BOFH666]

I'm going to get burnt to a crisp for this, but I feel it needs to be said.


One cannot grow in a community without some kind of religion, church, or group

God is truth. People avoid it because they've got their own agendas. Those that don't believe in God don't because they refuse to believe there is anything beyond their control and existance. Humans are a domineering lot. We feel that anything we can control and manipulate is a relevation in and of itself. For the athiest, God isn't ideal or convienient. He cannot be mastered, so He isn't sought. Well, life can't be mastered either. He is above us, rather than below us, and that disgusts some people, alot of people.


I do not believe in God, and it has nothing to do with not being able to prove he exits or otherwise. My own personal belief is the message is what's important, the creation of a central 'father' figure is a convenient metaphor to get that message across. HOWEVER, for those that do believe, I respect them for that belief and wish that all that do so, regardless of their particular faith, find comfort and joy in that faith. I certainly have no wish for them to explain their belief to me, for no explanation will bring sudden revelation, that would make faith meaningless.

I do however have a major issue with the sentiment that one cannot grow in the community without religion. Those that know me, and there are one or two on these boards that DO know me outside of the net, will attest that I'm someone that does everything he can to help others. Frankly this is how the bulk of my time is spent, and in the last ten years I can count the number of times I've chosen my own desires over someone else's happiness on the fingers of one hand. I've been on suicide watch for friends and strangers, well, too many times and I'll leave it at that. I've always, repeat ALWAYS been there for anyone that needs me. Yet despite this I can't grow because I don't have faith?

I do not live my life for Jesus Christ, Buddha or any other religious figure. I certainly don't find the idea of god "disgusting" because he's "above us", I just don't believe, or find it necessary to believe. I live it for those around me and to be the best person I can based on my own moral code. Not to the teachings of a particular faith but to my own judgment and ethics. And, ultimately, in the (I suspect misguided) hope that humanity is at heart worth the effort. But this, according to you, makes me a second class citizen because I don't believe? Why should we be forced into a religion just to prove we are "good people"?

It has to be said as well, that those who go forth to spread the word of god door-to-door are some of the most obnoxious people I've ever met in my life. I have been cursed, consigned to hell for my non-belief, spat on, my car vandalized and, on one memorable occasion, punched in the face by these believers for simply saying "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested and would rather not waste your time". So please don't tell me that having faith automatically makes you a saint.

[venray]

"I'll say again, faith and religion are married to each other. One cannot grow in a community without some kind of religion, church, or group."


Faith is not married to religion. Faith is an entity all its own.

I do not need to go to the local church of ANY denomination to pray to Jesus. I do not need to be associated with any group or put into any religious catagory to believe in God.

I do quite well on my own without being associated with a particular organized religious group.

What BOFH says is saying is correct when he says it is the MESSAGE that is important. Christianity in the true sense of the word is about the message and teachings of Christ. These teachings are neither married to nor owned by any organized religion. These principles stand fine on their own without the beaurocracy and "fire and brimstone" found in many "religions" out there.

Ray


__________________

[tommytikl]

Yeah...what Ray said...but with the Fire and Brimstone ;)

Faith is what God gave us...and His Son.
We gave Religion back to God...and screwed it all up...point of the Son.

[BOFH666]

Ummm... so when's the daughter getting here? ;)

[Haltickling]

Originally posted by BOFH666
I do not believe in God, and it has nothing to do with not being able to prove he exits or otherwise. My own personal belief is the message is what's important, the creation of a central 'father' figure is a convenient metaphor to get that message across. HOWEVER, for those that do believe, I respect them for that belief and wish that all that do so, regardless of their particular faith, find comfort and joy in that faith. I certainly have no wish for them to explain their belief to me, for no explanation will bring sudden revelation, that would make faith meaningless.

I do however have a major issue with the sentiment that one cannot grow in the community without religion. Those that know me, and there are one or two on these boards that DO know me outside of the net, will attest that I'm someone that does everything he can to help others. Frankly this is how the bulk of my time is spent, and in the last ten years I can count the number of times I've chosen my own desires over someone else's happiness on the fingers of one hand. I've been on suicide watch for friends and strangers, well, too many times and I'll leave it at that. I've always, repeat ALWAYS been there for anyone that needs me. Yet despite this I can't grow because I don't have faith?

I do not live my life for Jesus Christ, Buddha or any other religious figure. I certainly don't find the idea of god "disgusting" because he's "above us", I just don't believe, or find it necessary to believe. I live it for those around me and to be the best person I can based on my own moral code. Not to the teachings of a particular faith but to my own judgment and ethics. And, ultimately, in the (I suspect misguided) hope that humanity is at heart worth the effort. But this, according to you, makes me a second class citizen because I don't believe? Why should we be forced into a religion just to prove we are "good people"?

It has to be said as well, that those who go forth to spread the word of god door-to-door are some of the most obnoxious people I've ever met in my life. I have been cursed, consigned to hell for my non-belief, spat on, my car vandalized and, on one memorable occasion, punched in the face by these believers for simply saying "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested and would rather not waste your time". So please don't tell me that having faith automatically makes you a saint.
I couldn't have said it better. Total agreement from my side, and thanks for this post! :cool:

[shylittleme]

Originally posted by cosmo_ac
What type of answer is that Shy? See, this is why you can't talk with religious people about religion. You make several points, and they just shut there ears and sing a little mantra about how there right, and your wrong.

previous arguement: http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=44509&perpage=15&pagenumber=2


i'm sticking by my Answer that i gave you cosmo. as Christians we believe that the only single WAY to true happyness and concent in this World is through Jesus Christ. and so that is what i'm sticking by. and the person that doesn't have Christ in thier Life is not truely living thier Life and that thier life is meaningless. Well it's True! that may sound harsh or rude but i do not realy care. We as christians aren't hear to please people in this world and llive by there standards we're here to live follow Christ and try to live for him as the best when were here on this Earth.

[venray]

"and the person that doesn't have Christ in thier Life is not truely living thier Life and that thier life is meaningless. Well it's True! that may sound harsh or rude but i do not realy care. "


THAT is not representative of all Christians Cosmo. Just some. Most of us do care and most know tolerance and acceptance of others point of views and know not to judge others.

Ray

[Haltickling]

Originally posted by shylittleme
... and the person that doesn't have Christ in thier Life is not truely living thier Life and that thier life is meaningless.
So the lives of a billion Muslims, a billion Hindus and several billions followers of other faiths are meaningless? :sowrong:

Sorry, that kind of egotism is one of the reasons which drives REAL Christians and all other religious people mad.

[BOFH666]

Originally posted by shylittleme
and the person that doesn't have Christ in thier Life is not truely living thier Life and that thier life is meaningless.

And thus do holy wars start, with the belief that everyone who does not share a faith is, in some small way, inferior and as time passes, small ways become large and inferior becomes worthless.

[Mimi]

Originally posted by shylittleme
i'm sticking by my Answer that i gave you cosmo. as Christians we believe that the only single WAY to true happyness and concent in this World is through Jesus Christ. and so that is what i'm sticking by. and the person that doesn't have Christ in thier Life is not truely living thier Life and that thier life is meaningless. Well it's True! that may sound harsh or rude but i do not realy care.

Not, that is NOT true. That is your opinion, and one of the reasons we have freedom of religion in this country. People are free to feel and believe as they choose. People without religion in their lives are every bit as capable of being fullfilled and happy as someone who does have religion in their lives. They merely draw their strength from somewhere else. There are also people who have a strong sense of spirituality, without being tied to any specific religion. There is nothing wrong with people in any of those groups. They just view life and faith a different way than the next group. Some people look at a glass and see it half full. Some look at the same glass and see it half empty. Are either of them wrong? Nope. They are just looking at it from different perspectives. Both perspectives are equally acceptable.

We as christians aren't hear to please people in this world and llive by there standards we're here to live follow Christ and try to live for him as the best when were here on this Earth.

The same can be said for non-christians, so why berate them for doing the same thing you are? They choose to believe what they believe, and choose to live their lives the way they see fit. And they are free to do so. It does NOT make them any less of a person.

Being closed minded and unaccepting of other people and their chosen beliefs can make you less of a person, though. Regardless of whether they are a christian or not.

Mimi

[venray]

Fewer Americans these days are loyal to a particular denomination. So long as people retain their loyalty to God, said Berry, they should feel free to find what fits.

"All of us have to make our faith our own once we get out from under our parents' roof. That's when choices are made," she said. "It's a world where we follow tradition a little less and focus more on what we need."



The above is a quote from a very good article found here....


http://www.startribune.com/stories/614/3884814.html


Ray

[BOFH666]

Originally posted by Mimi
Some people look at a glass and see it half full. Some look at the same glass and see it half empty.

And some look at the same glass and wonder who's been drinking their pint.

[MrMacphisto]

No offense to any believers, but personally, I think God is Santa Claus for adults....

[Celtic_Emperor]

@BOFH- I meant within the confines of a religious community. I'm not questioning helping people whether or not you are religious. Anyone can do that. I'm talking about creating unity with a group of people with the same ideals. Thats essentially what church is. I'm not saying you have to be a part of that to help people. You misunderstood. I meant it to be taken as- if you want to be part of church community, you specifically have to work toward that end.

@ Ray-

I keep repeating myself about faith and church being married to eachother because its true. If you wish to seperate the two, then you simply stop going to church (divorce). Otherwise the two are linked together and are supplimental to eachother. If you do not desire one or the other then you simply exclude it from your life, like so many christians do as well as people from different religions. I'm sure there are a great deal of christians that don't even go to church whether its because they are too lazy to get up and go, they don't believe it will any good whatsoever even though it might, or there are others reasons for their not going.

Still, the two are synonymous with eachother when it comes to worship. No one is saying you cannot do one without the other. Faith is believing, and church is sharing that faith with others. So church is ideal for not only spreading the word and giving thanks, but it creates the unity I keep speaking about. This is common sense.

"When two or more people are gathered in My name, there shall I be." Two or more people can be essentially anywhere. It doesn't have to be church. It can be at home, at work, at school, etc. Either way, you are doing right by the Lord. And in two of these places public prayer is frowned upon at times, so its extra meritous.


As for everyone else and their posts, well, I don't know what to say. It just, like always, boils down to personal opinion and personal truth. All will be settled when we die however. Death and anything that might come after is something no one is absolved from, despite what they believe and how strongly they believe. You can only control what you think here. That won't matter much in the next life. I consider being a christian, being a person of faith ,as being prepared. I already know what awaits me however, and I'd rather work toward it than do nothing. :)

[leafstk]

Originally posted by Haltickling
So the lives of a billion Muslims, a billion Hindus and several billions followers of other faiths are meaningless? :sowrong:

Sorry, that kind of egotism is one of the reasons which drives REAL Christians and all other religious people mad.

I absolutely agree. Judge not, that ye may not be judged.

[BOFH666]

Originally posted by Celtic_Emperor

I'm sure there are a great deal of christians that don't even go to church whether its because they are too lazy to get up and go, they don't believe it will any good whatsoever even though it might, or there are others reasons for their not going.

Faith is believing, and church is sharing that faith with others. So church is ideal for not only spreading the word and giving thanks, but it creates the unity I keep speaking about. This is common sense.


There is one thing I wanted to bring up in this thread, and now seems as good a time as any but I know that there's going to be a lot of anger directed at this sentiment. Religion is not always a force for good. I'm afraid I'm speaking specificaly of the Catholic church in this instance, though there are I know many more examples. That there is corruption at high levels in the catholic church is well known, and sadly these days not that surprising. Witness the well publicised abuse cases in the US for example (http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-suffolkreport0210,0,2290700.acrobat?coll=ny-top-headlines). But this isn't really what I'm refering to. I know of three people who have had what could be called an intense Roman Catholic upbringing who have been left with serious mental problems in later life, usually from overwhelming guilt and an extremely poor self-image and low self-esteem. These are by no means isolated cases, I know a couple of social workers who've said the same thing over the last six months (without being asked I hasten to add) and that they've seen this same guilt result in badly fractured families and long term emotional damange.

Church for many people becomes a punishment, a stone around their necks, not necessarily becuase they don't have faith but because of the presure they feel to confirm to the standards of that community. Just as an example, for the sort of situation I'm talking about, having an interest in the material this site covers would be forbidden and, if discovered, lead to punishment from the family. To my eyes and in my experience (and yes, this is a personal view, I'm not saying this is what I think so it MUST be true) those who attend church regularly are more likely to become agressive, in some cases violently, while discussing other religions and issues that have a religious aspect (gay marrige for example) than those that don't. This always strikes me as curious as I'd have presumed it was the other way round. Strangley this attitude does not seem to pass to other religons, I have never once for example had any problems with a Muslim over a religious issue.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while religion and attending church CAN build unity, it is not necessarily a given that it WILL do so. Like everything else, it cannot be measure in simple black and white.

[Celtic_Emperor]

People are different. Thats certainly not a problem in my church. I think the ways of old are being used as an example to represent the ways of the ever changing and ever accomidating church of the present. I think for people to stick with pointing out the stuffy aspects of what the church was versus what it is, is more than unfair. Its like wanting to see only the negative things that have happened and giving no testament to how wonderful it is. Its looking at it with scorn for whats happened rather than with hope for what is yet to be. Its like using a standard that doesn't exist anymore. If you or your parents grew up and it was like that for you or for others you know than thats sad, and I'm sorry to hear that.

It has been my experience that church is as much as you make it to be. No one is going to force you do to anything or to think a certain way. You only end up getting as much out of it as you put in.

[Swimmingbird]

I see. I only said what I said because I thought the non-faithful and non prayerful posts were unnecessary and were the ones that were disrepectful toward the purpose of the thread. They were outside comments not tailored for the thread, but for something else that didn't belong to it and wasn't even an issue or topic. Never at any one time did I or anyone imply that only christians could post there or that different types of prayers could be offered. Anyone that has assumed or thought that has been mistaken. I'm not so narrow minded to think that God is not universal and only cares about christians. If what I believe is true, and there is only one God, and to everyone else who believes in another is worshipping the one in the same, then it only makes more sense for their to be diversity and unity through that diversity.

On a side note before I begin, I just found out how to do the quote thing :). Yeah, I wasn't insulted or thought that someone was implying for me to leave, but it's a touchy subject with a lot of people so I'll tend to fade back from the conversation, confrontation can be a good thing, but not if there'll be no resolution. No one called me a heretic, but well, some people aren't as level headed as you are and I thought I'd just stroll down a different path in case someone did. There were no hard feelings for me on that thread at all. Sorry I didn't articulate that better the first time around. My faith is important to me, and people feel the same way about their faith. I think that as long as the faith teaches good will, that's a great thing.

[Celtic_Emperor]

Theres no need to apologize to me for anything. :)

[BOFH666]

Originally posted by Celtic_Emperor
Its like wanting to see only the negative things that have happened and giving no testament to how wonderful it is. Its looking at it with scorn for whats happened rather than with hope for what is yet to be. Its like using a standard that doesn't exist anymore. If you or your parents grew up and it was like that for you or for others you know than thats sad, and I'm sorry to hear that.

All I am saying is that church is not NECESSARILY a positive thing. And you want to talk about how "wonderful" it is? Fine:

Going back about seven years, I knew a guy who was the nicest person you could hope to meet. He was a real bright kid, always had been and was one of those deeply annoying people who's good at everything. Sports, academics, art, lanaguages you name it he could do it. His parents were proud of him, and rightly so, and he was a devout Roman Catholic, as were his family and the bulk of the village he lived in. All that changed when he told his parents he was gay. His parents basically told him he wasn't welcome in the house until he admited he was lying and all those in his church acted as if he were the lowest scum on the earth. He ended up moving out and living in a rented student flat in town a few miles away from his parents.

I was due to play a game of squash with him one afternoon and he never showed up. No answer on his home phone number and I got a bit worried. Got to his place, front door was open and ajar, I went in and found him sleeping on the sofa surrounded by what looked like twenty bottles of asprin and the like. Called the ambulance, rode with him to hospital and, much to my relief he came through it alright. The first night he was out of hospital he was back in his flat because his parents were sticking to their beliefs, so I took suicide watch and, sitting by his bed, acted as best I could as his confessor. It was heartbreaking to hear and to this day I always wonder if I could have done better.

He seemed to shake himself out of dispair over the next few weeks and maybe four months later we were out walking on the cliffs, ten of us just chatting and enjoying the sun when he broke for the cliff edge and jumped off. I was half a second too late to catch him, hands closing on air, fingertips scraping the back of his jacket and the only reason I didn't fall with him was someone else was a half second behind and caught me. I will never forget to the day I die lying on the ground unable to do anything but watch him fall. I remember he didn't make a sound, didn't cry out just, just fell.

After that the only thing I could do for him was to tell his parents what had happened. For my troubles I was slapped hard enough to draw blood, told I was just like him (meaning gay, I'm not) and it was my fault he was gone and that because I didn't believe I'd WANTED him to die as he was a constant reminder of what I lacked. Over the next few weeks, as more people started to find out what had happened in his community, I was portrayed as practically pushing him off the cliff myself becuase they couldn't face the truth of what their intolerance had done. I have been cursed by them and told that I'd burn in hell for what I had done. This from those who could have saved his life with the simplest of acts, a kind word, compassion and understanding but who instead stuck to their beliefs and let him... sorry, if I carry on I'm going to say something I'll regret.

So you'll forgive me for holding the view that organised religion and church does not always yield positive results. And as for a standard that doesn't exist anymore, check that link in my previous reply, that report was published about two years ago. Something more recent: http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/051304/a0113churchabuse.html

Again I'm not saying ALL churches are corrupt, immoral, intollerant or anything else, that would be a ridiculous allegation, I am merely saying that they are not always a positive force.

[Celtic_Emperor]

Look, I agree with you. I'm not going to argue that some people are not so driven by their parents and such that things like this wouldn't happen. Its sad and I'm sorry to hear it. My sympathies. Your story almost brings a tear to my eye. But you are using an extreme circumstance, in which it appears someone was groomed to be something thats not humanly possible- perfect.

I'd just as much blame the parents than anything. Its obvious your friend was raised to be something he was not and could not be, both sexually and spiritually.

Its that kind of radical religious zealocism that disturbs me and makes me ashamed when I hear of it happening. But on the bright side its not like this anymore. Times have changed. The catholic church has changed a great deal since Vatican I. Simply growing up and living in a certain time period would have meant things were different. I think the values by which you are judging the church of today are based on how horribly strict the church was in say Vatican I and prior.

You say it was only seven years ago, but in my lifetime I've seen in that seven years an ever continuing change for the better.

I don't disagree with you that churches and religion are not always a positive force. Just as you say and admit its impossible for them all to be that way, I'm admitting its impossible for all of them not to.

But I believe I've found a happy medium. My entire life I've not experienced anything bad in the church. I won't bad mouth it personally unless I've suffered at the hands of it in some way, which I haven't.

I really am an innocent in the matter. I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. So many people, young and old are just like me and are on the same boat, world-wide. Its really really sad that some religious end up getting the shaft. It almost makes me feel guilty for having it so good. :(

[Mimi]

BOFH, I don't know what to say. I am at a total loss for words here. I have had 2 close friends commit suicide, and as heart-wretching and painful as it was in both cases, in neither instance did I actually witness it. I can not even begin to imagine the pain and guilt and agony involved with something like what you experienced. My deepest sympathies for losing a dear friend, having to witness his untimely end, and for the shame and ridicule you were slapped with for doing your best to help that young man.

Intolerance is cruel. Whether it comes from the church, society, the government, or even your own friends and family. Everytime you look down at someone through narrowed eyes because you feel they are less of a person than you, for whatever reason - economical status, race, sexual preference, culture, religion, political stance, weight, height, etc - you are literally hammering another nail in the coffin of their feelings of self-worth.

Intolerance and inequality are my biggest pet peeves. NO ONE is perfect, so how can anyone possibly look down at another for any reason. It's hypocritical and assinine.

I hope I live to see the day when the words "All men and women are created equally" will ring true. Actually, it rings true now. There's just too many people who are sitting around with their eyes squeezed shut, fingers in their ears, singing "la la la I can't HEAR you" to drop their insecurities and stubborn ideals long enough to accept it.

Mimi

[TKpervert]

My daddy told me long ago to remain silent when the topic of religion or politics came up.
My daddy was a smart man.

There's no winners here.

[JoBelle]

I believe that God represents Himself in many ways.

I think that is about the healthiest and most understanding statement that's been made here. I feel that spark of life, that thing that made the big bang, Jesus, the spirit guide of native people's, you name it....are all God. God is the hub in the wheel. Every spoke branching out is just another path to enlightenment, to God.

Spirituality, faith, and religion are intertwined. On some levels, you can toss in science. If not married, they are at least "kissin' cousins." :p Humans can only learn so much at a time. In the end, I think they will all meet.

Frankly, I think people who don't believe in ANY higher power are much more dangerous than those who do. To them there is no accountability to anyone that is not their equal. At least people of faith have to contend with the idea that someone might be tsk-ing them on a level that could shake reality. Mind you this is just from personal experience. I've also no problem admitting that religious fanaticism is a potent ground for hate and discontent. It is. Unfortunately, those people don't believe that the above quote could apply to them.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. In more than one way, it would seem.

If only the non believers would stop thinking the believers were deluding themselves. If only the believers would stop thinking the non believers were deluding themselves. ;) Vicious, isn't it?

Jo

[Celtic_Emperor]

Thanks for the compliment, JoBelle. :)

I'm glad it meant something to you too. Enough to make yet another wonderful post, at that.

[DonnieBrasco]

Originally posted by shylittleme
i'm sticking by my Answer that i gave you cosmo. as Christians we believe that the only single WAY to true happyness and concent in this World is through Jesus Christ. and so that is what i'm sticking by. and the person that doesn't have Christ in thier Life is not truely living thier Life and that thier life is meaningless. Well it's True! that may sound harsh or rude but i do not realy care. We as christians aren't hear to please people in this world and llive by there standards we're here to live follow Christ and try to live for him as the best when were here on this Earth.



But the Lord tells us to treat all people with compassion.I know when I was saved I was forgiven for my sins and by the grace of God given eternal life,thats it.I know there alot of christians who are obnoxious but it doesnt represent the whole lot.I don't know about anyones life being meaningless only they know.When christians Jesus Christ is the only way it is His words and we are the messengers.He didn't say if you are hindu your in,if your spiritual your in,no he said the only way to the Father is through me.NOw if you don't believe in God then you must be of the belief of evolution.I will say that I believe in God and my God doesnt like nor does He lie;therefore the bible in my opinion is the word of God.My bible doesnt tell me I can pick and choose what I want from his commandments.

ONe more thing in the bible God talks about being lukewarm in your faith and by that he means yousay your a christian but you have one fooot in your walk in faith and the other in the world.Well He says you wouldve been better off not knowing the word at all than being in that predicament.

IF any other religion turns out to be right that makes my faith in Jesus Christ fruitless,because that would make him out to be a liar and the entire message false. I will roll the dice so to speak on Jesus Christ


Finally,I believe in Jesus Christ without seeing what I believe in that is faith kinda like when you drive why do you go across the intersection on the green?Because on faith you believe those people at the intersection will stop at the red.

[BigJim]

Yanno, I truly do believe in some kind of pre-destinal guidance. :D

This thread came to my attention because I was looking for Hal's profile to send him a PM, not because I saw it on the boards. (R/L has kept me horribly busy and away from my beloved TMF, TT and UKTF just lately.)

Most contributors to this thread will know of my views on religion and faith (two distinctly different subjects) because of a couple of threads I started or contributed in. These were shortly before I went gung-ho with the political threads, if memory serves me correctly. What are my feelings about "belief" and "faith" and "spirituality"? I believe that what you may call the Holy Spirit is a very real thing, tangible and distinct. I believe it's a part of everyone's existence whether they invite it to be or not, because everything that exists in our physical reality and beyond is made within it and from it. You might call it the ultimate set of bricks & mortar, because everything is within is and influenced by it. This conception of "God" is different from the standard Christian one. Christians believe God to be the ultimate being in existence; the King of Heaven and general boss of all divine beings in the angelic choirs. There's a general consensus by ecclesiastical authorities that Jesus Christ was God in human form, although some prefer to define Him as the Son of God and subbordinate to Him. This dogma was a much chewed tidbit during a barney a load of church dudes had at Nicea and what is considered "accepted dogmatic fact" these days is based purely on the fact that the God-in-human-form camp had the loudest voices on the day the Nicene Creed was decided. I wouldn't have thought it matters a lot though. If you're a human and you believe Christ walked the Earth, just worship Him and obey Him and you'll make it to heaven without having to split hairs too much. So do I personally believe in the Covenant of Christ? No, I believe the church and its dogma is a complete fraud and that Christ Himself is 90% fictional with the 10% reality being a mish-mash of true history split between several real figures and appropriated by the priesthood of the day when writing the Bible.
Now the author of this thread asks the question...

Originally posted by shylittleme

i still can't get a grasp on this. But why do people still in Life and online as well need a Reason and Real living prove that Christ is Real and that he actually Died on the Cross for all of man kinds sin?

i mean i've talked to many non - believers online but they always seem to want all this Prove that Christ was Real and that he lived. not matter how much prove and verses we as Believers point them to they will never believe or if they do believe they don't want to live the Life of a Christian. it just simply comes down to weather your gonna live your Life for Jesus Christ or not. no if ands or butts about it.

Why do I need proof? Well for several reasons.

1/ There is a list of religions to choose from in the world as long as your proverbial arm, each one claiming to be the one true faith, each one claiming to offer enlightenment and freedom that the others can't compare to and each steeped in corruption, child abuse, money laundering and political intrigue. How am I to tell one from the other?

2/ There are very real reasons, historical, recent and logical that make me doubt the dogma.

3/ The Force that created the worlds, life and love also gave me a brain through which my mind is capable of asking questions and drawing conclusions. It would be an insult to said creational Force if I were then not to use those faculties on such an important question.

My previous posts about religion explain a lot of research and reading into the research of others I'd done on the subject of religion. They explain why I do not believe in the Testaments as historical fact, but as mostly symbolic stories meant to be read in two different fashions with different conclusions being drawn from each one. They also explain what I believe, although I've edited that out of the following reproduction in favour of a more concise version typed now. ( The first and last example of being concise that anyone will ever see from me! :dogpile: )
Here is a reproduction of a passage of my writing from one of those threads...

Disclaimer: This essay was written in a different stlye to this post. It contains my thoughts on the veracity, or lack thereof, of history as presented by the Bible. To wit I wrote it in what some might consider an insulting or belittling way. I certainly meant to write it to convey my indignation at the way religions have been used to abuse humanity and imprison their spiritual possibilities, but I in no way intend an insult to any single person because of their own belief. Freedom of belief and expression is the fundemental tenet of my life and I would never consider the "you're wrong, I'm right and you had better change your opinion fast!" attitude. To me that is what has been done too much in the world and is largely responsible for the sorry state we find ourselves in. So believe what you want to believe and be happy. Whatever your beliefs are, I'm happy for you and I'm your friend. :)


-------------------------------------------------------
Okay, who am I talking about here? His father was the king of the spirit world/heaven. He was the only begotten son of the chief deity. He was born of a virgin as a result of an immaculate conception. He was born on earth on December 25th and walked among men as a great king. He was a threat to the established order of the time. He was brutally murdered, laid dead in his tomb for 3 days and then came back to life. He reapeared to his followers and then ascended to rule the heavens at the side of his holy father.

Sounds like a simple question I'm sure. I'm even more sure that every one of you would answer that I was talking about Jesus Christ. However, you would'nt be correct. All of the above have been attributed to an almost endless string of deities, of whom Jesus Christ is only one of the most recent. A few years ago, the Archbishop of Canterbury objected to having a Christmas tree in the cathedral because it was a pagan symbol. What makes that so funny is that the whole of the Christian religion is pagan! And not just christianity either. Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Judaism and just about every pre-christianity multi-theistic religion are all exactly the same. They all tell exactly the same story about exactly the same characters. The only difference is the names they give them. Now you might think that would be a perfect corroberation of official religious history, but again you would'nt be right. For millenia now, religion has been nothing (according to what I've studied) but a forcible hi-jacking of human spirituality; for the purpose of controlling masses of people by fear and guilt. The figures you'd read about in just about any religious story are at the very best, loosely based on real people. Often they are flat out fictional and nothing more. What is even worse is that a slightly different version of events has been peddled to different peoples, with the express intention of making sure they hate anyone else who doesn't share their own desperatley limited vision.

To understand where the blueprint for control by religion came from, you have have to look very closely at the oldest pagan religions, of ancient civilisations. The main focus for these was the sun. Whether it was Apollo, Ammon-Ra, Helios, Sol Invictus or whoever, the sun god was always highly venerated because the sun was so important. There were two reasons for this. Firstly it was because of the obvious dependancy of civilisation upon the sun. It provided warmth and light; was directly responsible for how good the harvest would be. In all these ancient civilisations you had a trinity. A chief god, a female and a son figure, who walked amongst mortal men. In ancient Babylon these three were called Nimrod, Semiramis and their son, Tammuz. Tammuz was a "great king amongst men". He was murdered in his 30's by being hung on a tree with a lamb at his feet. They laid his corpse in a tomb and 3 days later the tomb was found open, with the body gone! I've definately heard that somewhere before...........

And the thing is, that this supposedly happened five to six thousand years BC!!!!!! As time passed there was the same theme in Egypt. There the trinity was Osiris, Isis and Horus. Osiris had an evil broher rebel against him in heaven (called Set or Seth) who murdered him. His sister Isis miraculously conceived a son by him, ressurected him and then bore the infant called Horus. This Horus chap was called a saviour, ruled amongst men, cast down the evil Set and restored his father's kingdom on earth. Horus also had 12 followers and was refered to as "the Kryst". Everything that dated from Babylon and Sumer from about 6,000-7,500 BC miraculously transported itself across to Egypt for the Pharohonic period. The legends were identical, butthe names had changed. On a completely different landmass in Central America, you had an identical situation with Queztalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca. But there's more............

In Phrygia there was born a "Son of the gods" called Attis. He was born on December the 25th to a virgin mother. He was refered to as "the Saviour of men, the only begotten Son" and he died to save humanity. He was "crucified" on a Friday and his blood was spilled to redeem the earth. He suffered "death with nails and stakes". He was the Father and Son combined in a human body. He was laid to rest, went down into the underworld, but three days later on the equivalent of March 25th, his body was found missing. Later on, he was found walking about again. His body was symbolised as bread, which was eaten by his followers as a sign of taking him into themselves.

In India there was a godling called Krishna. He was born to a virgin mother on December 25th. His father was a carpenter. A star hovered over his birthplace and there were shepherds and angels of heaven there. The local ruler slaughtered thousands of infants to try to eradicate him, buthe somehow survived. He performed miracles, healed lepers, the sick, the lame and the blind. He died in his 30's, crucified on a tree or post. His close followers refered to him as "Jezeus" or "Jeseus" which translates as "pure essence". It is said in the writing of the Vedas that he will return on a white horse to judge the dead and fight the "Prince of Evil".

Then in Greece there was Dionysus/Bacchus. He was born to a virgin mother on December 25th; put in a manger and covered in swaddling. He was a teacher who travelled throughout the land performing miracles and healing. He turned water into wine. He rode into town on the back of an ass. (As did Seth from Egypt, funnily enough.) His monikers included the ram or lamb, God of the Vine, God of Gods and King of Kings, Only Begotten Son, bearer of sins, the Redeemer, the Anointed One (translated from the word "Christos") and the Alpha and the Omega. He was hung and crucified on a tree, but rose from the dead on March the 25th. He was worshipped in Jerusalem during the first century BC. A book called Antiquity Unveiled by J.M. Roberts says that "IES, the Phoenician name for Bacchus, offers the origin to Jesus." This chap reckonsthat IES can be broken up into I (meaning "the One") and ES. (Meaning fire and light.) When these two fragments are amalgamated then, it becomes IES which means "the one light". He then says, "This is none other than the light of St. John's Gospel; and this name is to be found everywhere on christian altars, both protestant and catholic,thus clearly showing that the Christian religion is but a modification of Oriental sun worship, attributed to Zoroaster. The Christians read the same letters "IHS" in the Greek text as "Jes" and the Roman Catholic priesthood added the terminus "us". "

And again, it doesn't finish there. Here is a slightly more complete list of deities and demi-deities, all of whom had similar or identical lives to "Jesus", or were involved in legends around the figure. Apollo, Hercules and Zeus of Greece; Adad and Marduk of Assyria; Buddha Sakia and Indra of India and Tibet; Salivahana of southern India and Bermuda; Osiris and Horus of Egypt; Balder and Frey of Scandinavia; Crie of Chaldea; Zoroaster of Persia; Baal (also known as Bel or Bil) and Taut of Phoenicia; Bali of Afghanistan; Jao of Nepal; Wittoba of Bilingonese; Xamolxis of Thrace; Zoar of the Bonzes; Chu Chulainn of Ireland; Deva Tat, Codom and Sammonocadam of Siam; Alcides of Thebes; Mikado of the Sintoos; Beddru of Japan; Hesus or Eros and Bremrillaham of the Druids; Thor, son of Odin of the Gauls; Cadmus of Greece; Hil and Feta of Mandaites; Gentaut and Quetzalcoatl of Mexico and Central America; Universal Monarch of the Sibyls; Ischy of Formosa; Divine Teacher of Plato; Holy One of Xaca; Fohi, Ieo, Lao-Kium, Chiang-Ti and Tien of China; Ixion and Quirnus of Rome; Prometheus of the Caucasus region; Mohammed or Mahomet of Arabia (only true Prophet, rather than Son); Dahzbog of the Slavs; Jupiter, Jove and Quirinus of Rome; Mithra of India, Persia and Rome.

The worship of the god Mithra pre-dates Christianity by literally millenia, but yet again tells the story that would later become Christianity in acute detail. It is even said that gold, frankincense and myrhh were offered as gifts to him. By the time that the character of Jesus was literally invented, the worship of Mithra and his rites were widespread throughou the Roman Empire. When they founded Christianity in Rome, they used the very symbols and rituals that had been the Mythric myth. Mithra's holy day of the week was Sun-day, because like Jesus he wasn't a real person, but a symbol that represents the sun. Mitra's followers called this "the Lord's day" and they celebrated their main religious feast on what is now Easter in our calender. Mithric initiations were held in a cave adorned with the signs of Capricorn and Cancer, being symbols of the winter and summer solstices. He was portrayed as a winged lion (a solar symbol or depiction in a lot of lands) standing within the coils of a spiralling serpent. The lion and serpent are and have been major symbols of power, religion and royalty all across the world, throughout the ages that humans have existed. The Roman church absorbed the Mithra Eucharist into it's rituals and supplanted the whole religion in that region. Mithra was also recorded as saying......"He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." Now that rings a very loud bell to me. The very site that the Vatican stands on was a massive site of Mithra worship. In a way it still is; they just re-named him Jesus.

So Mithra was a symbol for the sun and so was his christian counterpar, Jesus. (The light of the world.) Jesus walks on water. (So does the sun's reflection if you want to get picky. lol) Jesus started his Father's work in the temple at the age of 12 and started his main ministry at 30. (The sun reaches it's daily peak at 12 noon, hence Jesus was first known then, and it enters each zodiacal sign at 30 degrees, hence he starts his ministry at that age.) Jesus turned water into wine. (At the root of nature the sun does the same because it makes the vine grow.) There is soooooo much symbolism in these accounts and not least in the Bible itself; which is almost entirely pure symbolism. There are the fish, (Pisces) and the 12 disciples (sign of the zodiac) to name just two. To understand that last one, look at a picture of Da Vinci's painting "The Last Supper." We are very much talking two levels of knowledge here. In the most basic form, the people worshipped the sun because of it's effect on the crop; but the people in the know who were doing the manipulating worshipped it because they understood it's power over nature entirely. This is where we start talking about secret societies and conspiracy theories I'm afraid. Leonardo Da Vinci was very high up as an initiate of secret societies as they existed in his day, and he certainly understood what Jesus really was. When you look at that painting, you can see Jesus sitting in the centre and the 12 disciples gathered with 6 on either side of Him. Look even closer and you'll notice that the 12 disciples are gathered in 4 groups of 3 men. (They're actually huddled into these groups pretty obviously, so it isn't too hard to spot if you're looking for it.) The painting is wholly symbolic of the sun (Son) surrounded by the 12 signs of he zodiac! The reason they're gathered in 4 groups of three is because they symbolise the 4 seasons of the year, with three months in each one.

Then let's take the Pisces and fish symbolism even further. Jesus was refered to as the "fish" and the "fisher of men". Perhaps this may have been because at the time that he was alleged to have been born, the Earth was entering the sign of Pisces. Because there is so much symbolism for Jesus and all the other gods assosciated with similar tales througout history, we really can't afford to ignore any possible connection with fish-like or amphibious gods, of ancient peoples. The Nommo of the Dogon people and also the Annedoti were both like this. also, their respective worshipers claimed they came from the star we call Sirius.

And here's another part that makes a nonsense of religion. The most widely used, translated and debated version of the Bible, is the King James version. A survey by the church in the 19th century discovered that the KJB had, wait for it............NEARLY 40,000 TRANSLATION ERRORS!!!!! One of the most noticable of these errors was the translation of the word "Elohim". This was taken to be the singular "God". However the word for God was "Elo". The h-i-m part pluralises it, which means that the bible should have been refering to "the gods" instead of "God". Big difference. This makes more sense when you try to compare Christianity, Islam and Judaism which all have the same roots, with the much older, multi-theistic, pagan religions. (It also makes "the Son of God" into "the sons of the gods". Perhaps that refers to the Nephilim of the book of Genesis?) Another big-time translation error was the translation of "the end of the world". (Armagheddon.) The word for world was mistranslated from the Greek word " aeon" and refers to the end of an age, not the whole world. The "end of the age" refers to the earth astronomical/astrological progression from one sign of the zodiac to the other. We are soon to leave the age of Pisces and enter the age of Aquarius. I think this progression more or less syncs with the Mayan's prediction of the end of the age/world as they knew it in 2012. Expect big changes soon then! Perhaps this is why people are beginning to discover their spiritual abilities again, instead of living in fear and guilt?

The deeds attributed to Jesus christ are huge and momentous. Someone like him would have been a serious thorn in the side of whoever held the reigns of power at the time He lived. However, not all seems to gel on this point. Outside of the books of the New Testament, there is no record, sign or account of Jesus Christ anywhere. A brief mention in the words of a Hebrew scholar/historian called Josephus is a rather blatant and obvious attempt at the priesthood trying to cross reference their meal ticket. There are literally scores of writers, historians and philosophers who laid down the history of the Israel/Palestine area at the time Jesus is said to have lived and NOT ONE OF THEM mentions him in so much as a footnote. Philo was alive and kicking through Jesus' whole "life" and wrote extensivley about the Judeans. This covered the whole period. The man lived in or near to Jerusalem all througout the time that Jesus was born of immaculate conception, wowed the elders in the temple, performed miracles and healings,overturned he money lenders tables, drove out demons, nearly gave the local authorities multiple heart attacks, was crucified, returned to life and ascended to heaven. Quite a life. And what does Philo say about this larger than life character, who so dominated his time and place? ABSOLOUTLEY NOTHING!!!!!!! Not a jot! Nada! Naff all! Fuck all! Zilch! That's less likely than Mike Tyson turning vegetarian! It is exactly the same with all the very complete Roman records, and the work of all of Philo's prominent contempories. There is no simple answer, just a very blunt one from my perspective. These events never happened, because there was no "Jesus". The man himself is symbolic of the sun, and his deeds and miracles are symbolic of the sun's power because of it's importance in pagan religion. And the main reason that the hierarchy of these religions worshipped the sun, wasn't because of it's effect on the crop, although that is very important, obviously. It was because they understood the power of the sun's electromagnetism. After light and heat, this is the sun's most effective power on our planet. The sun is quite simply, boiling with electromagnetism. The earth itself it crisscrossed with electromagnetic meridians that were known as "ley lines" in the olden days. On top of that, every living cell on the planet is a conductor of electromagnetic energy. Now this is the power that makes that train in France levitate!!!!! Electromagnetism can do that! It can also transfer information via an electromagnetic wave through the air. Military communication do this all the time. (At least EXTREMELY important ones do.) Now if you can picture a human being who is so in tune with this process that his or her body can channel the energy in the same way that a train or transmitter does; you have scientific explanations for telekinesis and telepathy! Not myth! Not science fiction! Not hogwash! FACT! The sun vastly affects the earth's meridian grid all the time. Whenever two or more of these meridians cross each other, you get a vortex point of seriously intense energy. It's also at places like this that you'll find monuments like Stonehenge, Avebury, the Giza plateau and the temple at Ankhor Wat in south east Asia. These things were massive harnessing focuses for the earth's natural powers! So why havn't we still got them today? you might ask. We have. They're all over the world at points where energy meridians meet. And what's more they're even designed after the fashion of the old esoteric structures, because every shape has a vibration and a wavelength that affects this energy. Egypt is the most ready example to hand. The male energy was represented by an obelisk, symbolic of the penis of Osiris; which was severed by Seth's sword. The female energy was represented by a dome or bowl, symbolic of Isis's womb. Typical male/female energy representations. these symbols were the focused representations of the manipulated energy; the natural energy itself was often depicted as a river. Hence the Egyptians would often build an obelisk on one side of the Nile and a symbol of Isis on the other. Well one of the biggest "vortex points" in europe is in the British Isles, under the City of London. Now get this......near Oxford, the Thames river is refered to as "the Isis". Coincidence? Possibly. But follow it into the city and then stop when we get to the financial district. On one side of the river you have Canary Wharf, the biggest obelisk in the country and right across the river from it, (a stones throw almost exactly) you have the Millenium Dome. In the space of a few hundred square yards you have the river, the obelisk and the dome. The trinity. The father, mother and the product. Massive symbolism on a scarily modern scale. Why the hell would modern architects be following designs practiced in ancient Egypt? I would suggest the answer is because the people who designed the damn things knew perfectly what they represented. What we're talking about is knowledge on two levels, all over again! And I can feel the "I word" coming up pretty soon.

When I use the term "Illuminate" I'm not talking about any one group, or society. I'm refering to all of them as a whole. The whole upshot of this thread, is that these people knew the power of nature and the cosmos. If it's a power that gives normal, ordinary people the sort of abilities that this forum was created to promote, then it would frighten people who had created religion after religion on pure symbolism, and murdered anyone who didn't take it literally. Some of the people here are religious in the conventional sense. That's fine, I don't decry that at all. But when you get to the bare bones of any of the major religions, you see nothing but hate, murder, racism, damnation and fear. According to the Bible itself, the biggest and mosr prolific racist and biggot of them all was God Himself! It makes me damn angry to think that someone could twist Divine Spirit into such a horrible mis-representation. The people here who believe in Jesus, but promote the values of this forum, (patience, tolerance, pychic ability etc) are wonderful people, but don't fit the original mould of religion at all. It was the character called Jesus Himself who said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword!" Conventional religion was a deliberate creation. It was created to imprison humanity and disconnect it from it's infinte power and possibility. That's why so many poor sould were murdered in the name of "God". But it's ending, the stranglehold is breaking. The people who use this forum are the proof of that. Humanity as a whole can hear the ticking of some cosmic, spiritual alarm clock, that is waking them up. I think personally that is why so many people who think of themselves as christians (including me about 3 years ago) do not fit the description at all.

Before I sign off from this mammoth thread, here is one more point about Jesus the Son/sun of God/the gods that I would like to make. As is widely accepted, the sun was the focus of ancient religion and as I've said I believe, Jesus is symbolic of it; not a factual person. Well one of the biggest holy days of any pagan calender was the winter solstice. It was the holiest because it was the end of one solar year nd the start of the next. On December 21st-22nd the sun had reached it's nadir in the northern hemisphere. (Where most ancient civillisations were located.) The ancients said it had "died". By even the most rudimentary of observations/calculations it had begun it's journey back to life and it's full summer strength, by the time 3 days had passed. The pagan/ancients would then have a massive celebration of the sun's rebirth on their calender's equivalent of December the 25th. So let's re-cap...........
1/ The sun/Son dies.........
2/ It spends three days dead or in the underworld.......
3/ It then is re-born/born anew........
4/ And the sun's birthday would then have been on.........DECEMBER 25TH!!!!

That is why symbolic deity after symbolic deity was born on that date; in civilisation after civilisation; millenium after millenium. That is why christianity took all the festival dates from the pagan calender and that is why the Archbishop of Canterbury dropped a clanger when he said Christmas trees were pagan. Christianity IS pagan!

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The Bible alleges that St. Peter (the "Rock" as he is sometimes known) was the first ever Pontiff (Pope) and thus founded Christianity as more than just as side-sect of Judaism. This would have made it a religion in it's own right. However, given the compelling evidence of most biblical characters being fictional (One Babylonian myth tells the story of a chap called Sargon, who was found by a princess, floating in a woven basket on the river: he was subsequntly adopted by the royal familly!!! Scary eh?) I believe I do know who really created Christianity. This particular religion was largely written by the Levite preisthood, with large chunks of the gospels being written by the Piso familly. But there's more to come; as you mentioned one of the alleged deeds of one disciple, I'll go into several personal biographies of these and other, related characters. Before I do though, there's one thing I forgot to mention in the previous lengthy post. The main holy symbol of christianity is the cross. This is because Jesus was crucified on one, according to the gospels. I would however suggest a different reason. As I've already said, Jesus was, in my opinion, the latest in a long line of solar-related deities, who were symbolic of the power of the solar globe. So if you look at a depiction of the solar system, you'll see that each body in it, has a symbol. Earth is a circle with a dot, Neptune is represented by the trident with a slightly crooked stem. The sun is represented by another circle, overlaid with the symbol of....... A CROSS!!!!!! On top of this, look at any depiction, painting or statue of a holy figure. Nine times out of ten, they're depicted with a halo around their heads. However, Good the Father and Jesus the Son/sun both have a certain "uniqueness about their haloes. They are both decorated with......... A CROSS!!!! Now God the Father has nothing to do with the symbol. It's His son who is, because of the crucifiction tale. Yet both are shown with a (solar) cross in their haloes. I would suggest that is because of the sun symbolism in religion. It would also be worth mentioning that many cultures from the Babylonians, to the Phoenetians and the Sumerians depicted the sun as being symbolised by a cross. More than just a coincidence I would suggest. I would say that is the reason the cross features in the crucifiction story. Not because a man called Jesus was really nailed to one; but because of the solar sign in religion. On top of which, something else smells a bit funny about the crucifiction story. Jesus was crucified between two thieves, who were also crucified. This could NOT have happened, because crucifiction wasn't the Roman punishment for thievery. There were lawd alone knows how many different methods of execution in the Roman Empire, but crucifiction and larceny did NOT mix. Anyway, on to specific figures from the gospels.......


Mary(s): Mary is a very ancient name for the goddess who gives birth via a miracle to the saviour Sun God. There are several variants in different languages and cultures. Among them are Mari, Meri, Marratu, Marah and Mariham. In one aspect these names refer to the sea, ("mare" in the latin root) known as Mer or Mar and "Mary" itself refers to the feminine energy. This was often depicted as a goddess from the sea or waters, the moon or something else. The idea was that the feminine balanced the masculine power of the sun. But they also relate to the Dragon queens of Sumer, Babylon etc. Isis, the Egyptian moon goddess and virgin mother to Horus, was also known as Mother Mary or "Mata Meri" in the original. She was also called "The Queen of Heaven", "Our Lady" and "Mother of God". The goddess El in the Edda texts was also called Mary from time to time. The ancient Hebrews worshipped a god/goddess character called Mari-El, or "Mary-God/god". The "Mother Mary" of Christianity is just another regurgitated figure who was known as El, Isis, Barati,Ishtar, Brittania, Artemis, Semiramis and Diana. The Christian religon like it's bed-mate Judaism, sought to remove the feminine principle from the public domain, which caused the tried and tested trinity of father-mother-son to breplaced by father-son-holy ghost. An utterly grotesque suppression of women would follow, justified by the invented words of a mythical St. Paul. "Wives submit to your husbands for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. Now if the church submits to Christ so should wives submit to their husbands in everything." This is also joined by, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Nice guy. I can imagine him and Germaine Greer having some very friendly chats over a cup of tea. Such words were written in truth, by the initiated priesthood to drip-feed suppression of the female into any culture that it was present in. What is even worse, is that this sexist attitude can still be seen today. Ann Widdicombe is one very messed up woman, who is a member of the government. When the CoE decided to allow women vicars, she left and joined the Roman Catholic Church! And this is the sort of person who claims to be intelligent enough enough to be a part of running our country? Excuse me, I need a bucket. The people in the know (the "Illuminate" if you will) set out to systematically remove the feminine principle from society. When you bear in mind that it's this energy that lets us (even men) connect with our higher levels of being and our true spirituality, it becomes understandable. Unrestrained male energy is overwhelmingly present in the physical world and without the feminine to balance it, it becomes isolated from it's deeper levels of being. Someone being described as a "Macho Man" is typical of this. But behind the scenes, there has been covert worship of this for many a long year. Symbolised in Freemasonry as Isis or the Dragon queens, because the people in the know, really do know the true power of the female energy. Mary Magdelene is another good example. This Mary was a reformed prostitute and is another classic example of goddess symbolism. She is alo portrayed as the Great Whore of Babylon. (Or Mari-Anna-Ishtar) A ritual involving a "Sacred Harlot" or high priestess annointing a saviour-king-godling goes back to Sumer and Babylon. If you believe in Atlantis and Lemuria, then symbolism of it is found there too. It was a pagan priestess who pronounced the ressurection of Osiris, Attis, Dionysius and Orpheus, just as Mary Magdelene would go on to be the first person to see (and hug, so he was again depicted as being solid and not spirit) the ressurected Jesus Christ. It's all symbolism from the ancient multi-theistic religions and it was used to create a mythical hero and heroine for a manufactured prison-religion.
The Three Wise Men & The Bright Star: I'm sure that even the non-christians amongst us will know this one. The Bible tells of a bright star marking the place of Christ's birth. Exactly the same story was told in ancient Egypt, using the star Sirius. (Which is the brightest star we can see from Earth, from any place, at any time of the year.) Ancient Egyptian religious texts say that when the highly significant constellation of Orion (for them in particular) appeared above the horizon, it presaged the arrival of Sothis or Sirius; the star of Horus and Osiris. (Also assosciated with Isis in Freemasonry, who refer to it as "The Silver Star".) Further symbolism of the "three wise men" is that the Magi were sun worshippers. Gold, frankincense and myrhh were the traditional gifts by Arabian Magi to the Sun and that's why you have 3 wise men giving these gifts to Mithra and Jesus in different versions of the same myth. The birth of Jesus in a cave (and indeed being laid to rest in one) is one that is repeated through many if not all, of the solar religion myths. The cave represents the "dark place" where the sun goes between the winter solstice and the night of December 24th. This is also symbolic of Jesus going down to the underworld when his physical body was lying in the tomb for 3 days. That's where the whole story comes from.
Being Tempted In The Wilderness For 40 Days: This is a VERY common theme for solar gods. A researcher called Albert Churchwood writes that the Egyptians guess-timated it took 40 days after grain was "sown" before it appeared through the soil. This would be a period of fasting and scarcity. So Jesus is depicted as fasting in the wilderness and "Satan" challenges him to turn stones into bread. The batt;es between the light and the darkness and also when Jesus defeated the darkness is symbollic of the time in the sun's cycle when there is more darkness each day than there is daytime. The 40 years the Israelites were supposed to have spent in the desert is more grain symbolism turned into a manufactured and allegedly "historical" text.
The Words Jesus Spoke: They weren't in any way original for a start. They were repeated from a whole line of similar solar deities. Horus delivered a Sermon on the Mount in Egyptian myth and the version with Jesus in is just an updated version with the same sayings. Some of them even come from earlier texts IN THE SAME BOOK! The books of Enoch for example. Change parts of them into a narrative and you've got the gospels to a tee.
The Crucifiction: Many of these mythical solar deities were crucified to save the sins of the people. It is a very old ritual, predating Christianity by millenia. Jesus on the cross represents the sun at the spring equinox in one way and the dying god, Balder, in another. The crown of thorns is symbolic of a halo, which ancient cultures have always depicted around the heads of their solar deities. (A standing stone in England with a Sumerian/Phoenician depiction of Bel/Bil on it springs to mind.) On top of this, the cross being a religious symbol, was not unique to Christianity at all. It was used thousands of years before 1 BC. Even Jesus said to his disciples "pick up thy cross and walk" before the idea of crucifiction had entered the scene at all. Indeed the idea of a religious man/godling nailed to a cross was so familiar to pagan religions that early Christians rejected the idea! The god from Central america, Quetzalcoatl, was depicted nailed to a cross many times. The cross is symbollic of the equinox when day hours and night hours are equal, and the sun is about to win it's victory over the darkness. At the moment Jesus dies, according to the Bible, the land became dark. So it would have done if the son had "died". (As it was symbollically doing.) As for the ressurectuion after three days, well we've covered that before in great detail. In Persia (long before 1 BC again) there was a ritual when a young man, apparently dead, was restored to life. He was called the Saviour andhis sufferings were said to ensure the salvation of the people. The priests would watch the tomb until midnight on the equinox, when they would cry "Rejoice, O sacred initiated! Your god is risen. His death ad suffering have worked your salvation." The same was said in Egypt of Horus and in India of Krishna. Both religions pre-date Christianity by ages. And going back to the two thieves. This is symbolism again. As I've already said thieves were'nt crucified in Rome anyway; they are probably symbolic of Sagittarius and Capricorn, which swap over at the winter solstice. Thus, the sun "dies" between them.
John The Baptist: This guy was a recreation of a dude called Anup, who baptised Horus in Egyptian legend. LIke john, Anup lost his head. Indara/Thor of royalty in Sumer was also known as "Bil-The-Baptist" on Sumerian seals and was also known as Ad or Atum baptising the infant crown prince on Egyptian sculptures. Baptism was introduced by the Sumerians, bot the Christians. It appears to have originated in the post cataclysmic era in the Phoenician/St. George area of Cappadocia. John the Baptist and his assosciation with water further cements his relationship with the water sign, Aquarius; the sun travels through there to be "baptised" according to myth. The sun enters Aquarius at 30 degrees and Jesus gets dunked by John at 30 years old. The zodiac circle of Greek fame was renamed Crown Of The Circle Of The Holy Apostles (zodiacle representations) by medieval monks and they placed John the Baptist where Aquarius is located. King Arthur and the 12 Knights of the Round Table are also sun and zodiacal symbolism, as is Horus and his 12 followers. In the Julian calendar of the Romans, John the Baptist dies on the 29th of August. In the bok Christianity Before Christ by John Jackson, he says "On that day, a specially bright star, representing the head of the constellation of Aquarius, rises while the rest of the body is below the horizon, at exactly the same time as the sun sets in Leo (the kingly star-sign, representing Herod). Thus the latter beheads John, because john is assosciated with Aquarius, and the horizon cuts off the head of Aquarius!" The reference to the "man carrying the water pitcher" in Luke's Gospel is more Aquarial symbolism, John the Baptist is an exact duplication of Bala-rama, the fore0runner of Krishna. No big suprise.

The 12 Disciples: As David Icke, that much villified and ridiculed author, says in Children Of The Matrix, "Is there a universal law that all deities must have 12 disciples or followers?" However much people laugh about the interview with Terry Wogan, that is a very pertinent question. Jesus had 12, so did Buddha, King Arthur(at any one time- there are more than 12 knights named in the legends of course), Mithra too, Dionysus and so did many other symbols of the sun. There were the 12 sons of Jacob, 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 chief gods of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians. this fixation with 12, develops again and again from solar symbolism; with their disciples and followers representing the months of the year and the signs of the zodiac. Indeed, the Romans openly symbolised the sun as a man's face and the zodiacal signs as his followers. During summer the man's face would be pictured as long haired, representing the strong rays. During the winter, they'd be cut short. Remember the story of Samson? The bloke who was a Nazerite and was strong when his hair was long, but weak when it was short? You know what "Samson" translates into crude English as? The "son of the sun god". For Samson, read Sam-SUN. His story goes wrong when he enters the house of Delilah. this is symbolic of the house of virgo, which the sun enters as Autumn approaches in the northern hemisphere. It ends when he pushes down the twin pillars in the temple. Twin pillars are heavy Freemasonic symbols. Nearly as much so as the "all seeing eye" you can see on a USA $1 bill. Ever wondered why most of the world's economy was stretegised from the NYTC? Picture the place in your mind, (as it was before 9/11) and then back off. Notice anything about the design, that is relavent? Thought you might. Another example of sacred architechture in modern civillisation. The Canary Wharf/Thames/Milenium Dome is another one I mentioned earlier. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John after whom the gospels are named represent the four cardinal signs of the zodiac. They are also symbolised in cathedrals as a man(Aquarius), an ox (Taurus), a lion (Leo) and an eagle(Scorpio), together refered to as the four creatures of the apocalypse. In a book called Forgery In Christianity, Joseph Wheless says... "The Holy Twelve had no existence in the flesh, but their "cue" being taken from Old Testament legends,they were mere names-dramatis personae-mask of the play-of "tradition", such as Sheakspeare and all the playwrights and fiction-writers create for the actors of their plays and works of admitted fiction." In ancient versions of todays secret societies (which are known to go back at least to Egypt and probably further) the spokeperson for the god was called a PETR. (Pronounced Peter.) This translates as "rock". I can imagine the vicar choking on his tea right now. In the Egyptian "Book Of The Dead", the name of the doorkeeper of heaven is Petra. Careful vicar, you'll spill it all over the carpet.
St. Paul: This seems like a viscious circle. The only single record of the existence of anyon called St. Paul or Saul of Tarsus, is within the New Testsment. It's the same with Jesus, the same with the lot of them. (Inluding the leading lights of the Old Testament.) The Roman historian Seneca was the brother of the Achaian proconsul when "Paul" was alleged to have spokent there. But, although Seneca noted many incredibly mundane things (by comparison) he doesn't mention a smegging word about Paul's public crusade. Okay, it's quiz time again. Who am I refering to? He lived in Tarsus (a part of asia Minor) as a young boy; he travelled to Ephesus where he spoke in front og enormous crowds and performed miracles; before travelling on to Athens and Corinth. Then he went on to Rome, where he was accused of treason, before going on to what is now Spain, then Africa. He then returned to Sicily and Italy. He was then dragged off to Rome and imprisoned; a place from which he heroically escaped. Sounds just like St. Paul right? Nope. This was a story told about a Greek figure called Apollonius of Tyana. (Who oddly enough, was refered to as a "Nazarene" in some accounts.) In the latin language, his name translated into Apollus and Paulus!! Scary eh? Aslo the scary journey that Paul had by sea on the way to Rome, was a duplicate of what allegedly happened to a Jewish historian called Josephus. This story has been repeated time than The Towering Inferno.

Phew! I'm sure there's more I'll remember or dig up, as this thread progresses, but for now I'm too tired to try. It's 1 AM and I've been on this post for 3 hours. I would really like some insightful comments from other people here. If you do believe in the Bible story (even if you reject organised religion, as a lot of you do) please tell me what the flaw in my research (and the research of the authors I researched) is. Tell me why you think I'm wrong.

----------------------

The "don't question God" or the "because it's in the Bible" responses are much like the "because I said so!" response you get when you're a kid and you ask an adult a problematic or complicated question. It usually means the person saying it is too narrow-minded to think of anything intelligent to say. Either that, or there is literally NOTHING to say, because what they're defending has been demolished by logic. (Or at least what we perceive as logic.) It's a natural and very healthy human instinct to question and probe into things that we don't completely understand, and it would be deeply saddening if your experinces stopped you doing that. From the limited info you gave us, it sounds like your mother is deeply institutionalised into strict, fundemental Christianity. Now I would'nt reccomend that you deliberatley try to force your opinions down her throat, because that will only drive a wedge between the two of you. If the views that you eventually form are too contradictory to hers, then just try to avoid discussion of the subject. One of the biggest pleasures there are in life, are the bonds between us and our close familly. I'd hate to think of anyone being ostracised from either of their parents; so try to keep the waters calm. But that doesn't mean you should give your mind away and become an automaton either! You should always question yourself about what you believe and think about spirituality a lot. I think some people would believe frm reading what I wrote that I'm saying there is no such thing as spirit or spiritulism. Nothing could be further from the truth! Spiritualism is the biggest power each, individual, human being has. Connection to it, is the thing that can free any human, frmo ANY bond; spiritual or physical. I talked a lot about the power of the sun's electro-magnetism earlier; well the etheric body is PURE electro-magnetism! That's why a living human has an electro-magnetic charge and a corpse doesn't! We know that you can't destroy energy, only convert it into another expression, so where does that energy go when someone dies? Into other planes and dimensions of existence I would suggest.
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Okay 46and2, that's what I found of my previous scribblings in about 20 minutes. there might be more on other threads, but I think it would be all variations on the same theme. All the previous legends of Christ like figures in pagan religions, weren't prophecy of something to come, as Omega claimed. They are unequivocably religions set down in the distant past, when they were being worshipped. In other words, they'd already reputedly happened. I don't think there can be any evidence more damning about how we've been robbed of our spititual power, by being hounded into these prison-religions. As their hold on the people weakened, conventional "science" was brought in to replace them. This "science" doesn't explain human spitituality truly, any more than religion does. It's just another pathetically limited attempt, to rob us of what it is our free-born right to know!
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Resuming writing in the present day...
So what do I believe? Anyone, and I mean ANYONE can ask for guidance. It can be a prayer, a meditation, whatever. In some form or other they will receive an answer. Be it a dream, an experience or occurrence or metting someone who enlightens them in some way. You can ask in the name of Christ, Bhudda, Allah, Eternal Light and Unconditonal Love, the Force or the tree growing at the bottom of your garden; the force you call "God" resides in and around everyone one of them, fictional or not. So it doesn't matter what name you give to the Guiding Light or how your worship It. No religion has the drop on another.

In another thread I was writing in I was having this argument with some committed Christians, exactly like yourself Shy. Both were convinced that Muslims were inferior because they'd made a bad choice of religion. Their reasoning for that was because the Muslim faith encouraged the killing of Christians. What both blithley ignored in their religious blindness and fervour was that the Bible is the biggest example of buggery, thievery and encouraging death of non-believers book in existence, and that they had quoted passages from the Koran completely out of context and deliberately cast them in a light to give weight to their point of view. Both were equally convinced that they and only they (christians) were bound for the full fruits of the Kingdom because they believed in Christ. Well their belief (and yours) is perfectly fine. Believeing what you do won't hurt anyone else so get on with it and enjoy it. But please don't believe for a second that you as a sect enjoy some sort of divine superiority because you're in for one hell of a shock when you reach the other side and find all the perditious bastards like me there too. :D

Heaven is for all who carry love and forgiveness in their hearts. Not love of their nearest and dearest, because we find that easy; but love and forgiveness of everyone, even if they've committed grievous wrongs against us. That "unconditional and everlasting love" also includes acceptance. An acceptance that everyone and everything is a piece of the puzzle and that no-one and nothing has all the keys to the Kingdom. That means losing the greatest sin of all from our hearts; the belief that we and only we are right and everyone else is wrong, and need teaching by us.

So you're a Christian? Good for you. You go off and experience the christian way of life, I'll experience mine and we'll meet in the middle some time for a soda or a beer and swap experiences so we can both learn from each other.
You're a Muslim? You go off and pray in that Mosque then, and I'll do my thing and I'll see you in the malt shop in a few days so we can chat and discuss. Enjoy yourself mate.
You're a pagan? Good for you. You go off and chant on the summer solstice at Stonehenge, I'll go off and do my thing, then I'll see you some time and we can chat about what a crap season the Spurs had.

Everyone enjoy whichever path you've chosen to experience life through and don't condemn those who choose differently. Then when we get together we'll have a lot more experience we can pool and we'll all be the happier for it. :)

Peace my brothers and sisters, and may the Force be with you. :bubble:

[gibby59]

:zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz:

Very nice bedtime story Jim, now tell us the one about the three bears and the little blonde girl who breaks into their house and vadalizes it.

:zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz:

[BigJim]

Originally posted by TklDuo-Ann
None of us will ever know the entirety of truth until we look it in the face. But, we need to strive for that truth in our own lives and attempt to live according to what it teaches us. That's true for everyone. For me as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the Truth...the ultimate and complete truth. So, for me, personally, to follow the truth is to follow Him.

Ann

Halleluja for some real wisdom! :)

[BigJim]

Originally posted by gibby59
:zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz:

Very nice bedtime story Jim, now tell us the one about the three bears and the little blonde girl who breaks into their house and vadalizes it.

:zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz: :zzzzz:

Hmmm, is that the one where they tie her to the bed and tickle her as punishment for nicking their dinner?

[BigJim]

Originally posted by tommytikl
However, it is not YOU who make the change in their lives but Christ...you lay the seed, you do not reap the harvest!!
Non-believers are but blind to the truth until it is revealed to them!
Look here 2 Corinthians 4:3-6.

Quite correct and it applies to any philosophical stance, not just the religious one. As someone said once...

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

[gibby59]

:D That's the one :D

Did they use their claws or just brush their fur against the soles of her pretty little feet :confused:

[BigJim]

Originally posted by gibby59
:D That's the one :D

Did they use their claws or just brush their fur against the soles of her pretty little feet :confused:

Dunno, but I hope the local force busted her ass for trespassing and theft.:D

[TklDuo-Ann]

Originally posted by BOFH666
All I am saying is that church is not NECESSARILY a positive thing. And you want to talk about how "wonderful" it is? Fine:

....His parents were proud of him, and rightly so, and he was a devout Roman Catholic, as were his family and the bulk of the village he lived in. All that changed when he told his parents he was gay. His parents basically told him he wasn't welcome in the house until he admited he was lying and all those in his church acted as if he were the lowest scum on the earth......So you'll forgive me for holding the view that organised religion and church does not always yield positive results.

Again I'm not saying ALL churches are corrupt, immoral, intollerant or anything else, that would be a ridiculous allegation, I am merely saying that they are not always a positive force.

First off, I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. His parents actions are not at all in keeping with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I happen to have a brother who's gay. He's a great guy. Our family loves him, regardless of his sexual preference. That has (and should have) no bearing on our feelings for him. We're Catholic. It doesn't change our feelings. But, I can easily believe that things like this happen...with or without religion as an influence.

One of my brother's former housemates (I'll call him Gus) had AIDS. It wasn't until he became ill that he came out to his family. His mother tried to get beyond her personal feelings to reach out to him. But, his father would never allow contact with him. He simply wrote him off.

As a home health aide, I was priveledged to help care for Gus on occassion. I came to love him as much as my brother did. He was a great guy...loving, caring, generous to a fault, funny as hell. But, his father couldn't see beyond his fear and hatred of anyone different from himself to accept him.

In the two years Gus struggled with his illness, his mother managed to sneak out only once to see him...the day before he died. Somehow she knew and that gave her the courage to face her husband's wrath. I honestly believe that he was holding on just long enough to say good-bye to her.

Gus's family had never gone to any church. They didn't subscribe to any particular belief system. They simply let him down. Doing so is a part of who we are. We aren't perfect. None of us ever will be. All we can do is our best in each situation we encounter. And we need to accept that.

Now, do people sometimes use religion to defend their actions or lack of actions? Absolutely. Does some of what is taught by the faiths of the world lend to the sense that this is the thing to do? Unfortunately, it can. And for that, we need to repent and change how we live in the world. We can believe and still be accepting of others who don't share those beliefs. Ultimately, it's an individual need for change. Only when those within the faiths come to understand that we are called to love one another...and understand the true meaning of what it is to love...that change will occur and understanding will come.

Ann

[BigJim]

Touching Ann, very much so.

I'll say one thing (now there's a novelty!) and that it's the first step to heaven to admit you're not perfect and never will be. Accept that and you accept that all those other "sinners" are part of your team. Their strong points compliment your weak ones and vice versa.

Even if I was an uber-catholic like Mel Gibson I would see no reason to fear homosexuals in that way. Everything is the creation of "God" after all, including gay people. To fear part of His creation is to fear him, and you should only fear Him if you've pissed him off.

[shylittleme]

Originally posted by BigJim
Touching Ann, very much so.

I'll say one thing (now there's a novelty!) and that it's the first step to heaven to admit you're not perfect and never will be. Accept that and you accept that all those other "sinners" are part of your team. Their strong points compliment your weak ones and vice versa.

Even if I was an uber-catholic like Mel Gibson I would see no reason to fear homosexuals in that way. Everything is the creation of "God" after all, including gay people. To fear part of His creation is to fear him, and you should only fear Him if you've pissed him off.


Christians don't fear Gay people (i don't thats for sure) we just as Christians don't like the acts that they do. Meaning homosexuality as a Sin that is what most christians don't like about Gay people its not that we Fear them. We're no better off then anybody because even we as christians sin still. But the bible is perfectly and plainly clear that homosexuality is Wrong. so um yeah :p

[gibby59]

Originally posted by BigJim
Everything is the creation of "God" after all, including gay people. To fear part of His creation is to fear him, and you should only fear Him if you've pissed him off.

Wonderful passage from the Bible, Hebrews 10: 26-31 -

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[BigJim]

Originally posted by gibby59
Wonderful passage from the Bible, Hebrews 10: 26-31 -

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I wouldn't worry about flouting anything Moses said was right considering he encouraged looting, murder, infanticide and rape. Then of course, I believe Moses to be as fictional as I do Jesus. (Remember the bit about Sargon of Babylon?)

[BigJim]

Originally posted by shylittleme
Christians don't fear Gay people (i don't thats for sure) we just as Christians don't like the acts that they do. Meaning homosexuality as a Sin that is what most christians don't like about Gay people its not that we Fear them. We're no better off then anybody because even we as christians sin still. But the bible is perfectly and plainly clear that homosexuality is Wrong. so um yeah :p

I wasn't stereotyping, I was just referring to the sort of person Ann mentioned. I doubt if a child of yours confessed he was gay that you'd excommunicate him, so you don't fall into this category.

[gibby59]

Originally posted by BigJim
I wouldn't worry about flouting anything Moses said was right considering he encouraged looting, murder, infanticide and rape. Then of course, I believe Moses to be as fictional as I do Jesus. (Remember the bit about Sargon of Babylon?)

I think I missed these parts about Moses, enlighten me please.....

Sargon, who?!

[BigJim]

Originally posted by gibby59
I think I missed these parts about Moses, enlighten me please.....

Sargon, who?!

Sargon was the Sumerian/Babylonian equivalent of Moses as Tammuz was their equivalent of Jesus. In or around 5-6000 B.C. this Sargon chap was found floating in a reed basket by a princess of the royal family. she took him back to the family and they "adopted" him. He later went on to lead a large population to freedom from slavery. An example of biblical regurgitation.

Moses and chums...

Originally posted in another thread by Jim the loud-mouthed limey
Racism, gentic cleansing, threats etc. What children learn of the bible is very edited and the main racism and biggotry kept under wraps until they're adult and usually too set in their ways to turn their back on the religion. Bible class (or Sunday School as it's known in Britain) contains carefully selected extracts, so no questions are asked. The kids are given the impression that God and his Old Testament henchmen are only out to punish the wicked, vanquish doers of evil and wouldn't harm a hair of an innocent child's head. Excuse me a second... :blaugh: :blaugh: :blaugh: :blaugh:

Ah, that feels better. Better than crying anyway, which is what the normal reaction would be.

The only slaughter of children the un-initiated and questioning get to hear about is the type perpetrated by Herod as he goes in search of the Narzarene Child, killing all males under the age of 2, to rid the land of this potential threat. (This is actually yet another example of the same stories being repeated in different religions and passed off as the only truth. In the Krishna legend, this was done by someone called King Kamsa, who was the uncle of the holy child.)

Here's some acts of true humanitarianism from the God of Christianity and his skulduggerous chiefs on Earth... (These from the King James Bible.)

Exodus 32.27 "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel... slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour"

Numbers 21.35 "So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left alive."

Numbers 31.7 "... and they slew all the males."

Numbers 31.17 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones"

Deuteronomy 2.34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

Deuteronomy 3.6-7 "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves."

One of the biggest gits of all biblical time, is Moses, the fictional Christian counterpart of Sargon of Babylonian myth.

Deuteronomy 13.15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

Deuteronomy 20.16-17 "...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:"

Deuteronomy 32.25 "The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both young man and the virgin, the suckling also and the man of grey hairs."

This homicidal, racist murderer of infants dies in Deuteronomy 34, and is wept over "for 30 days". He must have been charismatic as hell to inspire such sorrow at his passing, after putting Adolf Hitler to shame. Many people might consider comparing Moses to Hitler as being overkill, but it absoloutely isn't. Hitler and Moses had a lot in common. They were both set on getting Lebensraum (living space in other words) for their "chosen people", and didn't give a damn about how many women and children died horribly to get it.

(Copied and pasted after someone else (46&2) similarly asked me what I meant by racism and genocide by Moses and cohorts, in the name of God. That other thread was originally started on the 24th of September 2002.)

[TummyDragon]

Originally posted by shylittleme
i'm sticking by my Answer that i gave you cosmo. as Christians we believe that the only single WAY to true happyness and concent in this World is through Jesus Christ. and so that is what i'm sticking by.

I'm glad the Cult of the Ear Covered Irrational Rationalization hasn't bitten you on the rear... must have lamb's blood on your door, a good thing too.

Seriously, *reason* with people. Cosmo made a valid point, but rather than discussing the POINT, you simply do the "Jesus is the way" song and dance. To a non christian, to whom you have been called as a Christian to evangelize I might add, that habit of avoiding the point by spewing rhetoric just makes the two stepping Christian dance appear as a mindless robot following it's programmed course- both unreasonable and unpalatable. There's a difference between discussing and preaching. This is a discussion forum, not a pulpit, and while you can pretty much say whatever you want here, pursuing the latter will certainly stifle the former.

...and the person that doesn't have Christ in thier Life is not truely living thier Life and that thier life is meaningless. Well it's True! that may sound harsh or rude but i do not realy care. We as christians aren't hear to please people in this world and llive by there standards...

And we wonder why the Christians were fed to the lions in droves? There's certainly nothing wrong with being Christian, or any other Faith, but perhaps an approach that doesn't include the meaninglessness of everyone else's life would be a bit more endearing.

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

Beautifully spoken, Sir. And may I just say, goddam good to see you back!

[BigJim]

Originally posted by Dr. Bill Kobb
Beautifully spoken, Sir. And may I just say, goddam good to see you back!

If my memory serves me correctly, Tummy Dragon is a Christian, yes?

In light of that I have to say to you TD, that that is a damn near perfect post. You hit on the many things that people of a non-religious persuasion get annoyed at in the religious when trying to have a discussion. Being a Christian and yet being able to view the debate so objectively is a sign of real intelligence, if you don't mind me saying so.

Jim - Who's doing his best to not sound patronising.

[TklDuo-Ann]

Over the years, I have been visitted by both Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses. Our arrangement was that they needed to give me equal time to share my own faith with them as I gave them to share theirs with me. Though they really are told NOT to do that, I've found that many are still willing to do so. It has led to several very interesting and rewarding discussions. Nobody changed their minds about what they believed. But, we DID change our hearts about our willingness to hear what others believed. And, putting what we believe into words others can understand helps us to see just what we believe ourselves.

The lessons I've learned in those visits has stayed with me. As a Christian, yes, I am called to share my faith...to evangelize if you want to use that term. But, that doesn't mean shoving it down anyone's throat. It means sharing who I am and why I choose to be that person. It means living what I believe so that others can see that there's more to it than words alone. I firmly believe that my faith is true. And it's not likely that anyone will ever change my mind on that. Believe me. It's been tried with more force than that of simple words. It didn't change a thing of what I believe.

The problem that we, as Christians, face is our unwillingness at times to allow others to feel that way about what THEY believe. We are called to be ambassadors for Christ. I could be missing something. But, if you think about an ambassador's role, they don't try to get everyone to become a citizen of their country. They try to keep communications op