Different meanings of political words

[Haltickling]

The meaning of political words differs vastly between the USA and Germany. Every decent politician strives to be seen as "liberal" here, it has a distinctly positive image. Maybe that's because "liberal" and "libertarian" means the same in German. Particularly conservative politicians are eager to have a "liberal" image. Perhaps the only real libertarian party here is the FDP (Liberal Democrats), which are very conservative in economics, but very supportive of individual liberty. They are not to be confused with the Austrian FPÖ (Liberal Party Austria), which is right-wing almost to the brink of fascism; their leader Joerg Haider openly admires Nazi values. But both so-called "liberal" parties are a minority with less than 10%.

There's also a German party called "Republicans", which is even more right wing than the Austrian FPÖ, probably comparable to the French nationalists of LePen. They only got 1.9% at yesterday's elections for EU parliament.

Another difference is the word "union". It has nothing to do with trade unions. Our conservative party is called CDU/CSU, meaning "Christian Democratic Union/Christian Social Union", abbreviated to "the Union". Both are right of center, but would probably still be called "liberal" if compared to the US Republicans.

The word "patriotic" has a rather bad image here. It smacks of nationalism, and we've had enough of that for quite a while. That's why the American flag-waving patriotism looks very suspicious to most Germans.

The ruling party here is the SPD (Social Democrats), not to be confused with the PDS (Democratic Socialists), who only plays a role in East Germany. The SPD rules together with the "Greens" (Buendnis 90/Die Gruenen), a conglomerate of environmentalists and former GDR dissidents. They are left of center, but certainly not left-wing. However, they fit the American definition of "Liberals" best. The German equivalent of the term "liberal" (meant as an insult) would be "Socialist", as all parties left of the conservatives are considered socialist. Depending how far right your position is, even the right center Union is sometimes branded "Socialist".

This is just meant to help Americans understand that political terminology is not absolute, but relative to the society. I always feel amused when I'm called "liberal" by Americans; it's actually a compliment. Thank you! :p

[Knox The Hatter]

Thanks, Hal! I rarely go through your posts without learning something. For that I'm truly grateful...

[TKpervert]

Does 'right-wing' have the same meaning in Germany as it does in the USA ?

[BigJim]

Fascist...

Conservative...

Liberal...

Socialist...

Communist...




Now there are obviously varying degrees of these five things and by the time we get to either wing, you might just as well be at the other wing for all the difference it makes to your behaviour. Hitler and Stalin, fascist and communist, Montague and Capulet, were virtually identical.

In Britain, the Labour Party of Tony Blergh is supposed to be socialist, the Conservative Party of Michael "Count Dracula" Howard is conservative, and the Liberal Democrats are liberal. I consider myself to be right of centre, but not so much that I'd call myself a "true blue" tory.

In America (from a Brits perspective), the Republicans are uber-conservative and the Democrats are allegedly liberal. It disturbs me that so many American conservatives see liberals as pinkos or commies. I'm convinced that the farther towards the wings you go, the more it seems that any voice of dissent must come from the opposite wing. Some conservatives are venturing dangerously close to the fascist/conservative divide in my opinion.


Very good idea for a thread Hal. :)

[Haltickling]

Yes, tkpervert, the meaning of "right" and "left" is the same here, although the degrees vary. "Right-wing" here means ultra-conservative to fascist, whereas our conservative party is just right of the center (wherever that may be; one German politician used to say: "The center is wherever we are!"). "Left-wing" means socialist or communist, whereas the SPD is just left of the center.

Another difference in terminology appears in the titles of office: We, too, have a President who is official head of the state, but he doesn't determine policy. The actual government leader here is the Chancellor (equivalent to Prime Minister).

Our "Secretary of State" is called "Minister of Foreign Affairs". But we have State Secretaries as well, in fact each ministry has at least two: A "Parliamentary State Secretary" (he is a member of the governing party), and a "Non-Parliamentary State Secretary" who doesn't change with the government; he is the administrative head of the ministry, but doesn't make policy. I believe you would call them "Undersecretary".

Likewise, we don't talk about our government as "administration". In German, "administration" is the job of civil servants, doing all the office work, but keep out of policy. However, if you ever happened to see the hilarious British TV series "Yes, minister", you know that the administrative staff often pulls the real strings behind the scene... ;)

Jim: Stalin called himself a communist, but he ruled the Soviet Union like a fascist, that much is clear. But did you know that the full meaning of the "Nazi" party was "National Socialists"? So Stalin was a "fascistic communist", while Hitler was a "fascist nationalistic socialist"! Now, who was right-wing and who was left-wing??? Quite confusing...

[General Zod]

Hal,I thought the nazi initials were NSDP The English translation was supposed to be National Socialist Democratic Party Now having said that I am not trying to start any kind of flame war by saying the demoncraps are the same as the nazis

BigJim,as far as the repooplicans go,I am sure most of them hate being labeled as fasicts Personally I believe both parties want to take away our freedoms

[Haltickling]

General, you are right, I didn't translate the full name. The Nazi-party was called NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter-Partei), and the full translation is "National-Socialistic German Workers' Party". No democrats there (the D stands for "Deutsch"), but the socialist aspect even gets stressed in the "Workers". The later GDR (which copied a lot of Nazi state structures) always called itself "State of Workers and Farmers".

[General Zod]

Thanks for the correction Hal I am not sure where I heard my version I posted any more Probably by some dude who really really depises the demoncrap party

[MrMacphisto]

Shit... I wish I could speak German... Are their any English-speaking countries that are similarly "liberal?" I hear Canada sort of is....

[TKpervert]

Thanks for the clarification of 'right-wing' Haltickling .

[BigJim]

Originally posted by Haltickling
Jim: Stalin called himself a communist, but he ruled the Soviet Union like a fascist, that much is clear. But did you know that the full meaning of the "Nazi" party was "National Socialists"? So Stalin was a "fascistic communist", while Hitler was a "fascist nationalistic socialist"! Now, who was right-wing and who was left-wing??? Quite confusing...

Doublespeak if ever I heard it Hal. Personally I think words like "communist" and "fascist" were invented to divide people needlessly, whereas "wanker" would have been eminently suitable for both. ;)

[BigJim]

Originally posted by gen.zod
BigJim,as far as the repooplicans go,I am sure most of them hate being labeled as fasicts Personally I believe both parties want to take away our freedoms

Well hey, Venray's a Republican, and he isn't a fascist. Ann and Drew are both Republicans too and neither of them are either. As you may have been able to tell from the political threads I've written in, I don't believe there are any differences between the parties, and that the purported ones are just there to distract honest citizens from what a joke democracy truly is.

At it's best democracy is a government of public servants, elected by the people and serving them on their behalf. What we have in Britain and America (and 99% of the world's democracies) is an elected dictatorship with the same force controlling all major players.

[august spies]

Jim: Stalin called himself a communist, but he ruled the Soviet Union like a fascist, that much is clear. But did you know that the full meaning of the "Nazi" party was "National Socialists"? So Stalin was a "fascistic communist", while Hitler was a "fascist nationalistic socialist"! Now, who was right-wing and who was left-wing??? Quite confusing...

I wouldnt label either left wing. HItler espoused rightwing views and he followed through, stalin spit out some leftist rhetoric, but the reality is he ran the ussr like a true fascist and probably killed more anti capitalists than hitler. I guess what im saying is one should be defined by their actions, not their words.

[BigJim]

And yet to have critiscised Stalin and called him what he truly was would have been lo open oneself to the label of whatever the USSR's equivalent of "anti-patriotic" was. Fellow Soviet citizens would have slammed the person and said if he couldn't say anything nice about Russia he should leave and live somewhere else (not that he'd be allowed to), or go out and get a life. And horror of horrors he'd have been labelled a weak-gutted "capitalist" into the bargain! :eek: