Anti-christianity

[Mephistopheles]

Recently someone said I was an antichristian after hearing me say "al die gristenen moeten ze opsluiten" which in English is "all of those christians should be locked-up" (notice the difference in dutch between christenen en gristenen, christenen are normal people but gristenen are morons in isolated communities,

It got me thinking. I guess that, as a anti-religious atheist, I can be described as an anti-christian, seeing the fact I consider religion to be a virus of the mind, a waste of time and a crappy reason to lie and deceive millions.

But then again, am I the only one who is completely disgusted by the way christian moralists try to limit my freedom? Euthanasia and abortion had been banned here untill the '70s due to the fact the bible apparantly says it's murder...

Why is my freedom as an atheist limited because of some god I don't even believe in?

*name calling and blanket insults removed*

[drew70]

Mephistopheles is not your name.

[MrMacphisto]

I'll be wrapped around your finger... oh yeah... love that song

Anyway... With all the religious lawsuits going round, I'm like McDonalds. "I'm lovin' it." How does it feel to be on the other side of the "holier than thou" argument? Secular is in....

[Mephistopheles]

Being an atheist feels liberating, I know I do not have to fear retribution in some vague form of afterlife, and anti-christianity, well, if you like to rub the truth in to certain people's faces, it feels good. I live in a catholic area of holland and I've met a shitload of people who are really religious and stuff and then I simply point out the facts, the pope indirectly caused several million aids-casualties by banning condoms.

[drew70]

Let's remember that Christianity and Catholicism are two radically different schools of belief, although they are often confused as one and the same by those of pagan or athiestic persuasions.

[MrMacphisto]

Originally posted by drew70
Let's remember that Christianity and Catholicism are two radically different schools of belief, although they are often confused as one and the same by those of pagan or athiestic persuasions.

Drew... The word Christianity should be replaced by Protestantism... THEN, your statement makes sense. Both Protestantism and Catholicism are sects of Christianity. C'mon man, I'm agnostic and I still know this...

[TklDuo-Ann]

Originally posted by MrMacphisto
Drew... The word Christianity should be replaced by Protestantism... THEN, your statement makes sense. Both Protestantism and Catholicism are sects of Christianity. C'mon man, I'm agnostic and I still know this...

Actually, that wouldn't cover it either. Christianity is MUCH more than two sects (if that's the term you want to use). A Christian is someone who believes Jesus to be the Son who gave his life for us. There are well over 100 formal sects that are Christian in their general beliefs....and many informal gatherings of people who profess Christianity. There are even many divisions within Protestantism. So, using the term Christian as a general blanket is cool....as long as that's who is actually being refered to.

Ann

[BigJim]

Ah, but is He the Son of God and subbordinate to his Father as He himself says and the voice from the silver cloud suggests, or is He God in human form as the RC Church insists. Bearing in mind this was decided by a pie eating contest in a place called Nicea, what do the individuals here believe?


My own beliefs about religion are well known and documented in thousands of words, so I won't go into them here. Would be interested in hearing the answer to this question though.

[TklDuo-Ann]

LOL....pie eating contest, eh? Musta been a pizza pie? Anyway, to answer your question, we believe him to be both the son of god and a part of god. Don't ask me to explain it. It's one of those mysteries.

As a related aside... If you can ever find it, there's actually a cute little drama that was put out several years ago called "God on the Dock" where Jesus is put on trial for the evils in the world. Though the three persons of the trinity are treated seperately, the responsibility is collective in the approach it takes.

Ann

[BigJim]

Would it be clearer to say then, that he is both son of God, and part of the Godhead?


I never really understood the nature of the holy spirit in all of this. Well I DO understand it, but find the position taken by Christian churches as being a bit foggy. With the Christian perspective, the trilogy seems to remove the female, mother aspect and replace it with the HS. Mary seems relegated to a fourth place in the scheme of things.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally posted by drew70
Let's remember that Christianity and Catholicism are two radically different schools of belief, although they are often confused as one and the same by those of pagan or athiestic persuasions.

I know that difference very well, most of holland is protestant. Fact is christianity in whatever form annihalates freedom and destroys the free thought of science, eventhough that has decreased the past 4 decades.

[Haltickling]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles
Fact is christianity in whatever form annihalates freedom and destroys the free thought of science, eventhough that has decreased the past 4 decades.
I don't think that this generalization is true. The faith has nothing to do with the organized forms of religion. It's not the concept of Christianity (or Islam or Hinduism) which "annihilates freedom", it's the worldly representatives of these faiths. That's a big difference.

OTOH, every form of society restricts a part of your individual freedom by setting rules. Your freedom is restricted by the law, by living in a family, when being in a restaurant or a theater, etc. By protecting some basic freedoms for all, some indiviual freedoms have to be restricted. You don't live in a vacuum just by yourself, there's other people with their own freedoms around you.

Religions set up some rules, but at least you're rather free in our society to follow them or not. Sadly, some religious organizations overstep their boundaries.

[BigJim]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles
I know that difference very well, most of holland is protestant. Fact is christianity in whatever form annihalates freedom and destroys the free thought of science, eventhough that has decreased the past 4 decades.

My opinion is that science can be just another "faith" that doesn't explain certain things any more than religion does. Science is also capable of staggering acts of narrow-mindedness that would make even the most fudemental of religious believers gasp.


It should be said that even though I'm not a Christian or any other sort of believer, I find the subject fascinating beyond meaning and love to talk about it with those who have it as part of their life. There is just so many things you can discuss about religion from it's socio-economic effects to the strengths and weaknesses of it's spirituality, that I never get bored. For all those of faith round here, many thanks for being my chatting partners on this subject. I enjoy your company. :)

[drew70]

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most socially aware member of the forum. There are very few topics of which I feel qualified to post statements of fact. Mostly I just play it safe and post opinions. But when I said Christianity and Catholocism are entirely different schools of thought, I know from experience of what I speak. I was raised Catholic but later embraced Christianity. I've read the entire Bible cover to cover. I know that Catholocism is an accepted sect of Christianity, and I'll admit there are some areas that overlap. But when you get down to basic fundamentals, they are as different as night and day. If you'd like examples, here are some more extreme ones:

Salvation (going to Heaven instead of Hell)

Christianity
You must repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as savior, believing his one-time sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Catholocism
You must be baptized into the Holy Church, attend confession regularly, and commit no mortal sins (those of which cannot be absolved by a Priest)

Communion

Christianity
The bread and wine (or grape juice) is symbolic of the body and blood of Christ, representing his sacrifice, which believers are commanded to remember regularly. His one sacrifice was sufficient for all time, that's why Christian crosses don't have Jesus still on them.

Catholocism
In what's called the "Sacrifice of the Mass," the Catholic Priest performs a ritual called transubstantiation in which the bread and wine are physically transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ. Hense, with each Mass Christ is sacrificed time and time again. This is why Catholic crosses have Jesus still on them.

The Virgin Mary

Christianity
The Virgin Mary was a noble woman, supernaturally empregnated by The Holy Spirit, and the human mother of Jesus. She has no other significance apart from being God's choice to be the human vessel by which The Savior would enter human form.

Catholocism
Mary has been elevated to a status of near deity, being co-equal and co-savior along with Jesus. Mary is the object of many prayers and is believed to have saving authority

Of course, every Christian denomination differs on points of doctrine. That's certainly to be expected. But they generally agree on the fundamentals. These differences I've mentioned are by no means trivial points of history or doctrine, they deal with the foundational elements, the very core of the Christian faith, that can't be merely dismissed as doctrinal denominational differences. (Sorry, couldn't resist a little dramatic alliteration. :blaugh: )

[Haltickling]

What you describe as Christianity is Protestantism. "Christianity" is the overall term for all religions believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, or as God himself. This includes various Orthodox churches, Catholicism, Protestantism in great variety, etc. If "Christianity" equals "fruit", "Catholicism/Protestantism/Orthodox" equal "apples, pears, oranges" etc, if you see it from the logical point. Your comparison implies that Catholics are not Christians, and that's just not true.

[drew70]

Yes, Hal. I'm quite familiar with how the terms are used today. I believe I've already stated my understanding that Catholocism is an accepted denomination of Christianity. So much for precluding objections, I guess. My position, in case it hasn't been made clear, is that dispite this acceptance, the foundational beliefs and doctrines of the Catholic Church depart radically from those held by other Christian Denominations, so much so that it really can't be considered Christian. Remember, Christianity predates Catholocism. The Catholic Church came along at some point and claimed to be the only true Christian Church, and basically killed anybody who disagreed. There's another difference, by the way. Killing is not cool in Christianity. The Christians who didn't buy into this new format of Mary worship and transubstantiation were labeled as heretics, and later as Protestants.

[BigJim]

Although I wouldn't use the same wordage, I read in a recent Stephen King novel a character describe catholics with the words...

Catholics are going to Hell, Father Don. Idolators, each and every one of them; they bow to the Cult of Mary. And the Pope! Don't get me started on him!


Descriptive, if not scientific. This fits your concept Drew? Do you think the Catholic faith uses the VM so much because the Christian trinity removes the female aspect so often venerated among other religious trinities?

[Haltickling]

Originally posted by drew70
My position, in case it hasn't been made clear, is that dispite this acceptance, the foundational beliefs and doctrines of the Catholic Church depart radically from those held by other Christian Denominations, so much so that it really can't be considered Christian. Remember, Christianity predates Catholocism. The Catholic Church came along at some point and claimed to be the only true Christian Church, and basically killed anybody who disagreed.
If you stress the point of earlier existence, you are right. The original Christianity existed in some small communities: Antiochia (the first on them, later origin of the Syrian-Orthodox church), Ephesos, Corinth, and a few others. Their only common belief was that Jesus was God, and that he was the savior. Details like Eucharisty, the position of Mary and other saints, and the exact definition of Trinity came much later. Catholicism and Orthodoxity separated in the schism of 1054 (mainly over the issue of Trinity and the importance of icons). That was the real birth of Roman Catholicism.

The first reformatory movements happened around the 15th century, so they are much younger than Catholicism. They redefined the role of Jesus and the way to get to Heaven, they reformed Eucharisty, and they negated the Catholic understanding of Mary and other saints. That's what brings me to the conclusion that your definition of Christianity is based on the Protestantic POV. And yes, Protestants often declare that Catholics are not Christians. That's their dogma.

The original Christianity during the first 3 centuries AD didn't bear too many similarities to either Catholicism or Protestantism. All the (often hairsplitting) redefinitions of the Christian faith came later and were thought out by human beings. Are they Christians, or are they just followers of some political movement, with faith abused in a political power game? Who am I to decide that, and who are you? We could agree on the fact that all branches of today's Christianity differ considerably from the original faith.

BTW, Big Jim's theory about Mary and other saints replacing heathen gods is quite right. It's what is called "popular faith", adapted to the regional traditions, and was only accepted rather late by the Catholic church.