Different standards for minorities?

[drew70]

One of the official liberal positions is that standards for admissions to universities, fire departments, etc. should be lowered for certain minorities.

What do you think, and why?

[the_Baron]

it would serve the best interests of the general public if we allowed less qualified people to become: doctors; lawyers; civil servants; etc.

NOT

i despise affirmative action and the lies and fiction attached thereto.

the notion of correcting possible ills through the suffering of others is obscene.

and as far as i can tell, caucasion males are now minorities in certain geographic locations.

hmmm. i think i'll check the native american box on my next application - i was born in brooklyn. thats in america, right?

no wait. i'll check the hispanic box - my mother's side of the family were sephardic jews who can trace their lineage all the way back to the expulsion from spain in 1492.

[MrMacphisto]

Oddly enough, I'm a liberal that generally opposes affirmative action in universities... HOWEVER, I also oppose the "legacy" bullshit that got Bush into Yale. If we keep things equal on a racial basis by not lowering standards for minorities, we must also prevent the favoritism shown to the progeny of alumni. Our society must refrain from ALL bias, whether it be racial, sexist, or classist.

[venray]

Originally posted by MrMacphisto
Oddly enough, I'm a liberal that generally opposes affirmative action in universities... HOWEVER, I also oppose the "legacy" bullshit that got Bush into Yale. If we keep things equal on a racial basis by not lowering standards for minorities, we must also prevent the favoritism shown to the progeny of alumni. Our society must refrain from ALL bias, whether it be racial, sexist, or classist.

Well said. I am against lowering standards, yet at the same time I am for providing financial aid to those who would qualify to be admitted to an Ivy league or other college yet cant afford it.


Ray

[august spies]

i think we can all agree that race doesnt exist and that we are all the same inside. this doesnt mean however that racism doesnt exist either, it has a very strong right wing following, and is institutionalized in many ways. however the true discrimination is class discrimation the case of bush the second is a perfect example, im sure there were much more deserving people whos daddys werent head of the cia, both black white asian whatever who should have taken bushs place at yale

[intense tickler]

I dont believe standards should be lowered but I do believe in affirmative action and you would not have qualified people like Colin Powell right now if not for affimative action he has stated this himself. The playing field still has been uneven for too long in this country not just for blacks and latinos but for women too. In fact women have gained more from affimative action then any other group and they are still far behind men. Im an african american 49 yrs old and I can still remember the voting rights act passed in 1965 that is not a very long time considering african americans had to suffer 400 yrs. But i will concede this is a complex issue and on the other hand I can understand some of the anger of "qualified whites" who feel they were passed over. One post wisely pointed out that there is also a "quota" for rich kids or all boys club and it seems lots of people should be more pissed about somthing like that which still goes on to this day at Ivy League schools.

[areenactor]

as august spies said, there seems to be a strong right wing following to racism. but from my perspective the worst form of racism is from the left. it is the liberals in this country who insist that minorities can't sucsede w/o extra help. it is the liberals who insisted on lower test scores for minorities be acceptable.
it is liberals who insist that minorities are unable to make something of them selves w/o their intervention.
sorry but it's the kennedy's out there who are really keeping the minorities in second place status!

yes i have been the victim of reverse discrimination, several times.
it sucks. the worst was when i was 3rd on a police dept. test in a suburb of chicago. i was the youngest test taker too. i was passed over so they could higher a black man, a lation man, and a white woman. all 3 had failed the writen, and physical portions of the test.
ah yes, affirmative action at it's best!

steve

[Mitchell]

I rarely if ever agree with Baron, but here I believe I have to, and I consider myself a liberal, welcoming to all races and religions and friends with all, but that being said, here is my view.
When applying for a job or to be admitted to a college, my belief is that one is either qualified for such or they arent, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. If someone is qualified to get into Yale because of their high grade point average in High School or fine recommendations, and extra cirricular activities, then by all means, let them in. However, to say that a more qualified person might be kept out, just to let a another in solely due to race, even if they may not have as good of an academic record, is in my view wrong, and unjust. Iam also one who does not believe in "legacies" In my view, a Kennedy should not be admitted to Harvard just for being a Kennedy, they need to be as equally qualified as anyone else and should have to earn their way in.
Conversely, I feel that all should be given a fair opportunity at jobs, education, and such, and should never be discriminated against due to race, gender, or sexual orientation. I know that "equality for all" is naive thinking, and doesnt exist in reality, but it would be nice in this world if people were judged on their ability, instead of on factors that should have no bearing on how well they can perform their academics, or do their jobs.

Mitch

[intense tickler]

I just read some of the reponses to the affirmative action post and there is one thing that clearly needs to be explained and that is what affirmative action is.
First off its not an unfair quota system if 2 similar qualified candades are applying for a college or university the school can make the choice of picking the minortiy be it a person of color, minority or woman. Secondly it is not suppose to give prefrence to the less qualified applicant or harm anyone or use any form of reverse discrimination. There is a perception amoung many whites that the sucess gained by many recipents of affirmative action is somewhat unearned and I clearly pointed out Colin Powell as a clear example of this before witch no one addressed lol.
thirdly minorites and women still have the lower paying jobs even to this day so who are all these white males who are being passed over look at any fortune 500 company and read down the board of directors . We still face active discrimination in this country. I cant even get a cab for gods sake in nyc lol and my brother when looking for an apartment was told several times by potential land lords that they did not want black tenants.
Affirmative action is not a liberal postion, we dont need liberals to think for us, its a human rights position its just the right thing to do. Nor like in one post is it a correction of "possible ills" 400 hundred years of being a second class citizen is not a "possible ill" and if your not a black person you will never get it. And one person said "race does not exist" well your wrong it does but at least you did point out that racism exist. Race is everything in this country or we would not be talking of this very thing now and people would not have such strong opnions. As for being passed over by the Chicago police dept well I dont live in Chicago but I do know that most big city police forces are overwhelmingly white and ive taken civil service exams and never found out the results of the other applicants and if someone told you that you were passed over by a woman a black person and a latino well that person should be fired.
I live in NYC and our police dept was just sued by black and latino officers because they were able to prove that minority police officers were more often disaplined for similar offences than white ones and you know what? the city shut up and quietly settled.

[areenactor]

yes i did find out who was hired, and where on the list they were prior to selection. should the fellow who i found out from have been fired, hell no! he was making an effort to encourage me to keep trying, as he felt i had good potential.

i do agree with you intense, that affirmative action was not suposed to be a system of reverse descrimination. saddly, that has become what it is in actual practice though.

if a student has the grades to get into a school then i'd like them to be able to get in. if a person is qualified for a job i'd like to see them get it.

as for white men getting more money for the same jobs as minorities that's hog-wash. as a nurse, and a police officer, and bar tender prior to that, i know i got the same starting rate as all other employees. sorry but that unequal pay thing is just more crap that sound good as a sound byte, but isn't factual!:sowrong:

steve