toyou444
07-06-2004, 02:27 PM
...and after 24 hours to digest and reflect here is my post.
Let's start with some facts. I am a registered Democrat. I voted for George Bush in 2000 (in a state he lost, btw) for two reasons: 1) I was not impressed with Al Gore at all (and I do not like Tipper for her music related rants), and 2) I liked the sound of Bush's econmic policies...lower taxes, school vouchers, etc.
9/11 changed the course of this presidency. Without that disaster America would have not have had as bad a recession and would have had a quicker recovery. I do not blame any specific person for that disaster. Who knows how many other briefings were being received? Can you put a man on every one of them? What happened was planned by a group of people, over a period of years, that would not be stopped. The fact that more people were not killed and/or injured is pretty amazing to me.
I believe that EVERYONE should see this movie no matter what their political slant. I personally belive in listening to those who oppose my views, no matter how extreme they seem to me, in order to better shore up my own opinions. Sometimes I even change my mind when presented with enough strong evidence. In my mind, people who say they will not see the film because of its views are being small minded. If you are so convinced that your view is correct then do not be afraid to see what the other side is saying about you.
I'll briefly break the movie down as best I can.
The beginning bit concerning the Florida elections was a bit much. Whatever happened there with voters being removed from the rolls and recounts is old news. Nothing will change the results and unless there is a smoking gun out there somewhere the issue is moot and this point.
I feel the same on the issue of the Bush ties to the Saudis. I work with a lot of people all over the country. They esentially pay my salary by buying my merchandise. If one of them is a criminal, and I've met them and done business with them, does that make me a criminal? Now I realize that Republicans spent eight years trying to prove that Bill Clinton was a bad guy in part because of the people he was associated with, but again I feel it is moot. With that being said it was interesting to see how close the two familes are in a personal sense. And how often they crossed paths. Maybe the president would give them a little more lee-way. We may never know, but the connection is still strenuous.
On the flights out of America of Saudis and BinLandens after 9/11. My concern here is that while a few (32 I believe) were interviewed by the FBI...the rest were not. I wonder why they were flown out? The excuse given in the film was that they would be unfairly treated following 9/11. Yet we thought nothing of racial profiling hundreds of others? While I find this suspicious, and there is no arguing with the fact that it happened, I won't play conspiracy theorist here and make a connection that the Bush administration let anybody off the hook.
There are some powerful scenes in the movie and if you are easily upset by violence and blood make sure you turn your head during the films portion in Iraq. My first thought during that whole sequence was "Well, war is hell". I admire all those who enlist and fight for me to have the freedom to even post this note. Much has been made about how Moore shows scenes of regular life in Iraq and not the torture chambers. I'll buy his explanation in Entertainment Weekly that essentially everyone knows Sadam was a bad guy doing horrible things, but we also killed the average person who was trying to live their life in the world they knew. Innocent people die during wars. And, to skip to the end of the film, I agree with Moore that the only thing the men and women in the military ask is that they not be sent into to kill and be killed for a bad cause.
It is here that I merge with Moore's thoughts on why we are in Iraq. There is the WMD's...which were proven false (so far.) There is the terrorist connection...which has proven false (so far.) And there is the fact that Sadam was a bad guy...well, there are alot of bad guys in the world. When are going to liberate their countries? I have always said what this adminstration lacks is a good PR guy. They seem to think that if they just stay on message the American people will buy whatever they are selling. Iraq was a bad idea, ok? It took troops away from the real war on terror in Afghanastan. It spread our troops too thin. It gave the enemy a dividing point in this country. It put our troops in a place that, now, we cannot get out of. It's too late to pull the troops. We started this thing and we have to finish it...but we never should have been there in the first place.
Also much has been made of the seven minutes after which President Bush was notified that America was under attack, during which he remained in a kindergarden classroom reading "My Pet Goat." Personally I would have excused myself, had a brief meeting with my advisors and then held a quick news confrence before heading back toward Washington. Perhaps those children were in no danger, but it was a publicly announced event and the Secret Service, like the rest of us, had no idea what might happen next.
Still, even that does not disturb me as much as one other thing.
I have seen the entire clip on the web. I watched it more than once. Moore only shows a few minutes of the clip and I kept trying to remember how the President was acting during those seven minutes. Was he laughing with the children? Did he seem nervous or uneasy? It appears as though he is distracted, lost in thought, as clearly he should have been. It was only after leaving the theater and discussing it with my wife that I figured out what bothered me. When the aide leans in and tells the President that a second plane has hit the WTC and America was under attack the President nods his head and says nothing.
Nothing.
Not a spin of the head.
Not a confused "are you sure?"
Not a word.
He did nothing. But more importantly he SAID nothing.
Put yourself in that situation. Wouldn't you at least be surprised? Wouldn't you, as a leader, quickly tell someone to go get more information and report back?
They all just stood there until the event was over and then they left.
I'm still amazed that I didn't notice it earlier. He never asked if Dick Cheney had things under control or was being moved to a safe position...nothing.
The President says he wanted to project an air of calm. His right-wing defenders scream that Democrats would have had a fit if he had jumped up and done something and said he was panicing. Instead he did...nothing.
THAT was the scene that Moore struck me with. The rest is immaterial to me when it comes this election. I didn't trust the government much to begin with, so to be told that they lie to get what they want I'm not too surprised.
The clips are good. The film-making is usual Moore, which is to say, above average. Is it slanted, of course. Moore doesn't like Bush...he's said so. But ignore that. Look at the clips and make your own conclusions. Get outside sources and, unlike our President, read. Read as much as you can and make an informed decision. I still have not made my mind up yet. John Kerry needs to show me more before he'll get my vote. George Bush may have already shown me too much. I'll hold my decision until I see how the rest of this year goes.
Just my take.
~ toyou
Let's start with some facts. I am a registered Democrat. I voted for George Bush in 2000 (in a state he lost, btw) for two reasons: 1) I was not impressed with Al Gore at all (and I do not like Tipper for her music related rants), and 2) I liked the sound of Bush's econmic policies...lower taxes, school vouchers, etc.
9/11 changed the course of this presidency. Without that disaster America would have not have had as bad a recession and would have had a quicker recovery. I do not blame any specific person for that disaster. Who knows how many other briefings were being received? Can you put a man on every one of them? What happened was planned by a group of people, over a period of years, that would not be stopped. The fact that more people were not killed and/or injured is pretty amazing to me.
I believe that EVERYONE should see this movie no matter what their political slant. I personally belive in listening to those who oppose my views, no matter how extreme they seem to me, in order to better shore up my own opinions. Sometimes I even change my mind when presented with enough strong evidence. In my mind, people who say they will not see the film because of its views are being small minded. If you are so convinced that your view is correct then do not be afraid to see what the other side is saying about you.
I'll briefly break the movie down as best I can.
The beginning bit concerning the Florida elections was a bit much. Whatever happened there with voters being removed from the rolls and recounts is old news. Nothing will change the results and unless there is a smoking gun out there somewhere the issue is moot and this point.
I feel the same on the issue of the Bush ties to the Saudis. I work with a lot of people all over the country. They esentially pay my salary by buying my merchandise. If one of them is a criminal, and I've met them and done business with them, does that make me a criminal? Now I realize that Republicans spent eight years trying to prove that Bill Clinton was a bad guy in part because of the people he was associated with, but again I feel it is moot. With that being said it was interesting to see how close the two familes are in a personal sense. And how often they crossed paths. Maybe the president would give them a little more lee-way. We may never know, but the connection is still strenuous.
On the flights out of America of Saudis and BinLandens after 9/11. My concern here is that while a few (32 I believe) were interviewed by the FBI...the rest were not. I wonder why they were flown out? The excuse given in the film was that they would be unfairly treated following 9/11. Yet we thought nothing of racial profiling hundreds of others? While I find this suspicious, and there is no arguing with the fact that it happened, I won't play conspiracy theorist here and make a connection that the Bush administration let anybody off the hook.
There are some powerful scenes in the movie and if you are easily upset by violence and blood make sure you turn your head during the films portion in Iraq. My first thought during that whole sequence was "Well, war is hell". I admire all those who enlist and fight for me to have the freedom to even post this note. Much has been made about how Moore shows scenes of regular life in Iraq and not the torture chambers. I'll buy his explanation in Entertainment Weekly that essentially everyone knows Sadam was a bad guy doing horrible things, but we also killed the average person who was trying to live their life in the world they knew. Innocent people die during wars. And, to skip to the end of the film, I agree with Moore that the only thing the men and women in the military ask is that they not be sent into to kill and be killed for a bad cause.
It is here that I merge with Moore's thoughts on why we are in Iraq. There is the WMD's...which were proven false (so far.) There is the terrorist connection...which has proven false (so far.) And there is the fact that Sadam was a bad guy...well, there are alot of bad guys in the world. When are going to liberate their countries? I have always said what this adminstration lacks is a good PR guy. They seem to think that if they just stay on message the American people will buy whatever they are selling. Iraq was a bad idea, ok? It took troops away from the real war on terror in Afghanastan. It spread our troops too thin. It gave the enemy a dividing point in this country. It put our troops in a place that, now, we cannot get out of. It's too late to pull the troops. We started this thing and we have to finish it...but we never should have been there in the first place.
Also much has been made of the seven minutes after which President Bush was notified that America was under attack, during which he remained in a kindergarden classroom reading "My Pet Goat." Personally I would have excused myself, had a brief meeting with my advisors and then held a quick news confrence before heading back toward Washington. Perhaps those children were in no danger, but it was a publicly announced event and the Secret Service, like the rest of us, had no idea what might happen next.
Still, even that does not disturb me as much as one other thing.
I have seen the entire clip on the web. I watched it more than once. Moore only shows a few minutes of the clip and I kept trying to remember how the President was acting during those seven minutes. Was he laughing with the children? Did he seem nervous or uneasy? It appears as though he is distracted, lost in thought, as clearly he should have been. It was only after leaving the theater and discussing it with my wife that I figured out what bothered me. When the aide leans in and tells the President that a second plane has hit the WTC and America was under attack the President nods his head and says nothing.
Nothing.
Not a spin of the head.
Not a confused "are you sure?"
Not a word.
He did nothing. But more importantly he SAID nothing.
Put yourself in that situation. Wouldn't you at least be surprised? Wouldn't you, as a leader, quickly tell someone to go get more information and report back?
They all just stood there until the event was over and then they left.
I'm still amazed that I didn't notice it earlier. He never asked if Dick Cheney had things under control or was being moved to a safe position...nothing.
The President says he wanted to project an air of calm. His right-wing defenders scream that Democrats would have had a fit if he had jumped up and done something and said he was panicing. Instead he did...nothing.
THAT was the scene that Moore struck me with. The rest is immaterial to me when it comes this election. I didn't trust the government much to begin with, so to be told that they lie to get what they want I'm not too surprised.
The clips are good. The film-making is usual Moore, which is to say, above average. Is it slanted, of course. Moore doesn't like Bush...he's said so. But ignore that. Look at the clips and make your own conclusions. Get outside sources and, unlike our President, read. Read as much as you can and make an informed decision. I still have not made my mind up yet. John Kerry needs to show me more before he'll get my vote. George Bush may have already shown me too much. I'll hold my decision until I see how the rest of this year goes.
Just my take.
~ toyou