PDA

View Full Version : Bush Leads Kerry by Eight Points in Poll...


venray
10-18-2004, 11:22 AM
Updated: 10:53 AM EDT
Bush Leads Kerry by Eight Points in Poll

By Susan Page, USA TODAY




(Oct. 18) -- Not in a generation has a presidential election been so close for so long.

Now, as President Bush is pulling a bit ahead of Sen. John Kerry, every step - and misstep - could affect their frenetic race to the finish.

After three debates that drew tens of millions of viewers, the president leads Kerry 52%-44% among likely voters, according to a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Thursday through Saturday. That's a significant shift from Kerry's 1-percentage-point lead a week earlier. Among the larger group of registered voters, Bush leads 49%-46%.

That's encouraging movement for Bush, but it's hardly a safe margin. Even his lead among likely voters is on the cusp of the survey's margin of error.

With 15 days to go, strategists in both camps are making final calculations about where the candidates should stop, what they should say and which TV ads should air. Both sides are poised to change plans to respond to events - spiraling violence in Iraq that could hurt Bush, for instance, or capture of Osama bin Laden, which could help him.



As Election Day nears, the competition is intensifying for the few states that are still considered up for grabs.


Still, there are differences between their strategies for the sprint.

Kerry is emphasizing domestic issues and targeting swing voters. His latest ads, unveiled over the weekend, attack Bush for failing to prevent the flu-vaccine shortage and accuse him of planning a "January surprise" to privatize Social Security. In the next 10 days, aides say, Kerry will go hunting in Ohio, a demonstration of his regular-guy credentials to rural voters who often support Republicans.

Bush is hammering the war on terrorism - his strongest issue - and aiming his message at reliably Republican voters. His new ad, to be released today, accuses "John Kerry and his liberal allies" of voting to slash intelligence spending and oppose vital weapons. They haven't adjusted to a post-Sept. 11 world, it says: "Either we fight terrorists abroad or face them here."

Both candidates are guarding against an offhand remark that could create an unwanted controversy; Republicans seized on Kerry's comments in the final debate about Mary Cheney's sexual orientation as mean-spirited. The campaigns are poised to jump on a news development that could help make the case for their candidate, such as Kerry's argument that the vaccine shortage is another "George Bush mess." Pollsters are watching for signs of slippage in a friendly state, or an opening on the other side's turf - for Kerry in Colorado, or Bush in New Jersey.

But at this point, adjustments are on the margins.

"We aren't going to get any changes in strategy now - it's too late," says Thomas Mann, a political scientist at the Brookings Institution, a think tank in Washington. "Either they reinforce what they delivered in the debates and at the political conventions, or they hope for or react to events."



Since Kerry emerged as the likely Democratic nominee in March, USA TODAY has taken 20 national surveys. In 19 of them, neither candidate had a lead outside the margins of error. Just once, in mid-September, after Kerry had been pummeled at the Republican National Convention and his Vietnam record assailed by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Bush held a 14-point advantage.

It was fleeting.

The president's edge eroded and then disappeared as Kerry began to fight back more effectively, especially in critiquing the war in Iraq. Kerry's steadiness in the debates, and Bush's uneven performance, helped the Massachusetts senator pull even again with the president.

Now the candidates are back precisely where they were in the Gallup Poll before the first debate. Bush aides note that's a good place to be: In the eight presidential elections that have included televised debates, the candidate with the lead after the last one has won the election.

But neither campaign is sure it will prevail. Evidence: Both sides are deploying thousands of lawyers and preparing for recounts and challenges in as many as a half-dozen states in case the outcome is as narrow and disputed as it was four years ago.

"Now it's a sprint to the finish," Bush told reporters aboard Air Force One. Here's a look at the course both candidates will run from now to Nov. 2.

On the stump: A shrinking battleground

In the beginning, there were 17 battleground states. Now the list of competitive states has shrunk to a dozen. Both sides deny that they are ceding states they once contested, but it's hard to argue with the message from their flight plans.

When Kerry canceled plans to campaign in West Virginia over the weekend, his aides' denials that the Mountaineer State was seen as Republican territory seemed half-hearted. "As we think of resources for these final two weeks and where we're going to be going and what we're going to be doing, there are a lot of judgment calls that we will have to make," Mike McCurry, a top adviser, acknowledges.

The Bush campaign, meanwhile, has stopped advertising in Washington state, where Kerry has a small but steady lead.

Just one state has moved onto the battleground list: Colorado, won by Bush in 2000 but close now. Bush will stop in New Jersey today as Republicans contend the Democratic-leaning state is in play. Democrats dismiss that as a feint designed to worry them into spending resources where they aren't needed.

Just in case, however, the Kerry campaign is weighing whether to move more of its Pennsylvania ad budget to Philadelphia TV stations, which are watched by voters in southern New Jersey.


No one disputes the trio of states that make up the heart of the battleground: Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Electoral College shorthand among analysts in both parties figures that the candidate who carries two of those states probably will win the election. The other closest states: Nevada, New Mexico, Iowa and Wisconsin.

As important as where the candidates go is what they say.

-- Kerry's closing theme was on banners at his rallies this weekend: "A fresh start for America," they read. "John Kerry: Fighting for us." That's a sharper and more populist message than his former slogan of "Stronger at home/Respected in the world."

The senator is making a series of speeches that aides describe as "closing arguments" for his election. The topics include the economy, health care and the cost of prescription drugs, topics his strategists say appeal to voters who aren't firmly committed one way or the other. He's attacking Bush's competence on everything from stabilizing the situation in Iraq to stemming the loss of manufacturing jobs in the USA.

This week, Kerry is campaigning in swing areas and even some Republican-leaning ones. He held a town-hall meeting Saturday in Xenia, Ohio, in a county Bush carried by 20 points in 2000. Next week, he will be turn to what McCurry calls "momentum building" in predominantly Democratic areas.

"George Bush has a very simple strategy," Kerry said in Xenia. "It is ignore it, deny it and then try to hide it. This has been the zero-accountability administration. In fact, this administration keeps the people who make mistakes and fires the people who tell the truth."

-- Bush's closing theme: Kerry's "do-nothing liberal record" vs. the president's leadership on terrorism. Kerry as president would raise taxes, Bush warns; if he's re-elected, he'll cut them. Those arguments are designed to energize his core supporters. He is campaigning mostly in Republican-leaning areas.

On Saturday, Bush talked about the war on terror and reminded a crowd that it was the one-year anniversary of Kerry's vote against a $87 million appropriation for Iraq and Afghanistan. On Thursday, he'll give a speech on health care.

"At a time of great threat for our country, at a time of great challenge in the world, the commander in chief must stand on principle, not on the shifting sands of political convenience," Bush said Saturday in Daytona Beach, Fla. "The differences are clear when it comes to defending the country. Sen. Kerry proposed that we should pass a 'global test' before we defend ourselves. ... I'll work with our allies, I'll build coalitions, but I will never turn over our national security decisions to leaders of other countries."

Then there are the surrogate speakers for both sides: Wives and children, governors and senators, actors and NASCAR drivers, soccer players and 9/11 widows. A Republican who combines the credentials of governor and movie star, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, offered to go to one state. He may be dispatched to Ohio.

Democrats hope former president Bill Clinton will have recovered enough from heart-bypass surgery to rally the party's most faithful voters in the closing days.

theshire
10-18-2004, 12:06 PM
NOOOOOOOOO! IT MUST BE BIASED!!!!!

:p

venray
10-18-2004, 12:54 PM
Be nice!


Ray

Xodlirv
10-18-2004, 12:57 PM
These polls are among "likely voters", i.e. people who voted in the last election. Voter registration is at an all-time high; there's upwards of ten million new voters this time and nobody can predict where they're going to go. The polls won't mean much either way.

venray
10-18-2004, 01:21 PM
Right now all of the polls taken in the past week show GW in the lead anywhere between 2%-8%.

Whether it be likely voters ( which makes good sense) or registered voters (who oft times dont bother), the Kerry people have their work cut out for them.

Even Jersey and PA have them in a virtual tie and THAT is something coming from those 2 states.

I have always said that the polls mean nothing. I merely point out for those that believe in them that Kerry is not fairing well with 2 weeks left.......

Ray

Lynchy
10-18-2004, 06:19 PM
The whole thing's going to be rigged anyway, just like last time. I'm sure people high up realise that Bush is much easier to manipulate, so they'd want to keep him in power for their own means.

Then there's the whole thing with him apparantly wearing a wire during the debates. But then, if he wasn't being told what to say, he'd just make a fool of himself, bless him.

Shem the Penman
10-18-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by venray1
Right now all of the polls taken in the past week show GW in the lead anywhere between 2%-8%.


Wrong. The Reuters/Zogby (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=895) and Rasmussen (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm) polls show a dead heat, for instance.

And I'm not terribly concerned about the Gallup poll. They haven't called a presidential race correctly since 1984. Hell, at this time in 2000, they claimed Bush was 13 points ahead of Gore -- and of course, Bush ended up losing the popular vote.

Yes, I know ... you don't believe in polls, you just post 'em when they happen to agree with you.

New2u
10-18-2004, 09:13 PM
Ray, you've mentioned time and time again that you did not put much importance in national polls, then this..., I thought you said that you perferred to be middle-of-the-road on politics? My libertarian friend, you are a little more political then you're letting on.

I'd like for you and others to check this website out: CNN spun poll numbers for Bush

http://mediamatters.org/items/200410180010

venray
10-18-2004, 11:19 PM
I post what I find to offset the others posted by the Kerry supporters to show that statistics can be made to to back up any point of view..

Shem..you dont like gallup? Just as reliable as the others. In other words they are not. There is no way to project a winner in this race until the last absentee ballot is counted (instead of them being thrown out like in California in the last race thus this notion of the Gore/popular vote thing)

You see..here at the old P & R forum, whenever Kerry shows he is gaining ground in the polls, someone drives the point over and over and over again.....figured it was time to show the uselessness of it all. The link at the bottom will give you more to trash on if you like......

Funny thing is, I didnt vote for GW the last time around.....but I certainly wouldnt vote for Kerry in ANY election.

New2, puleeze....you are all over Bush every chance you get...I just felt like evening the playing field a little..lol..

Lighten up guys...It will be over before you know it...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry.html

Ray

Mitchell
10-19-2004, 02:25 AM
Ray, a point here. Unless something has changed in the last day or two, every poll I have heard in PA from every news paper and TV station has Kerry ahead by 7 to 10 points in PA. Iam aware Jersey is a tie and is very close, but as I live here, I have not heard any poll which says they are tied in PA. As a matter of fact, I read an article in a Republican slanted newspaper here in Lancaster, a largely GOP county, which claimed that Bush isnt going to spend any more time or money here, and has for all intents and purposes, "given up" in PA.
As for your numbers for the national poll, I also heard 52 to 44 Bush among "likely voters". The poll I heard in general gave Bush a 47 to 44 lead, still within the margin of error. While I acknowledge that Kerry has his work cut out for him, it is not impossible.
They also did an electoral map today, and it showed that many electoral votes, about 96 of them, are still up for grabs, with Bush holding a slight lead in the electoral college.
Bottom line, what you said is right, Kerry has his work cut out for him, and Bush may very well win. However, they also said there are many new registered voters, who havent showed up on the rolls yet, who are either Dems or undecided, and this could affect the outcome.
I believe honestly that Bush will win unless he missteps in the next 2 weeks, or there is something that happens in Iraq or with voter turnout to change such. Kerry's hopes may be dimming a bit, but until we really see what happens, it is probably safe to assume that barring an unexpected surge, the race will go down to the final week.

Mitch

Xodlirv
10-19-2004, 06:53 AM
Lighten up guys...It will be over before you know it...


Oh no! What will we fight about then?

venray
10-19-2004, 07:38 AM
Xodlirv ..we can always start a thread on religion.......


:rolleyes:


Mitch...that's because you are not listening to the news, but looking for polls.

I was watching CNN while posting that last one as they were saying how surprisingly even the race is in both of those traditionally Democratic states.

Even in CT (which voted by far for Gore last time around) the race is so close right now it surprises all of us.

I indeed believe that polls show little more than the opinion of the few who are asked at any given time....

That is why I was bored with the constant..."Kerry is ahead after the debates." He is not ahead nationally, but the race is indeed a close one.

So everyone get out and vote on Nov. Second and we can have fun watching the returns.....Until then I will be averting my attention to the Redsox, who have miraculously pulled off two in a row to make it a contest. If they win tonight....well....I wont poll your opinions on that one..

Ray

Mitchell
10-19-2004, 07:57 AM
Ray, I just heard a report on NBC this morning with respected commentator Chris Matthews. No "Poll", just an electoral map showing the breakdown of the states. According to Matthews, this is still a winnable election for Kerry. Matthews claimed that Ohio and Florida are still tossup states, and had PA as tossup, even though it leans Kerry. He said Kerry must win two of three of those states, retain his lead in all the others he has, and pick up perhaps one other midwestern state, or a tossup state like New Hampshire, to win. He said its not going to be easy, but it can be done.
One more vital issue that was brought up, which has nothing to do with the electorate, state breakdown, or such, will be the issue most on the mind of voters as they vote. According to all commentators I've heard, if the economy or jobs are in the forefront of their minds as the most important issues, Kerry will win. If it is national security or terrorism, Bush probably wins. In every analysis I've heard of this election, Bush gets a wide lead on issues of terrorism, with Kerry having a big lead on the issue of jobs and the economy. I know you dont put much stock in "polls", ray, but this is what I've heard.
Bottom line, every news station I have heard said it is still too close to call. They did concede that Bush may surge ahead a bit before election day, but also said it may remain close. From what I've heard from the commentators, it seems to me it will be very close right up until election day, and may not be decided until that day, with the undecided or newly registered voters perhaps playing a large role in who wins.

Mitch

New2u
10-19-2004, 10:59 AM
As you stated,

"Kerry is ahead after the debates. He is not ahead nationally",

Ray, neither is Bush in spite of the incorrect and false polling information being "pumped" out by the media. Yes, it will be very close. To some, Kerry needs to be better known, Bush is a known with a "failed" Presidency and leadership. With Kerry, this country has a chance to change course for the better, with Bush, more of the same "failed" leadership.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=1&u=/nm/20041019/pl_nm/campaign_poll_tuesday_dc

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42984-2004Oct18.html?referrer=email

Ray, somehow I've always suspected that you were a "redsock" fan.

venray
10-19-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by New2u
With Kerry, this country has a chance to change course for the better,

Better to those like Teddy K and others like him. No thanks....:rolleyes:

Xodlirv
10-19-2004, 10:21 PM
Better to those like Teddy K and others like him. No thanks....

Do I understand you correctly? You're saying all Democracts are just like Ted Kennedy, one member of the party?

If that's true, then all Republicans must be just like Herbert Hoover, and God knows how bad the country was under <i>that</i> administration!

New2u
10-19-2004, 10:51 PM
Better to those like Teddy K and others like him, no thanks....

Venray, I mean better to those like our U.S. soldiers and the innocent children of Iraq, yes, thanks....

venray
10-19-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Xodlirv
Better to those like Teddy K and others like him. No thanks....

Do I understand you correctly? You're saying all Democracts are just like Ted Kennedy, one member of the party?



No. I am saying that John Kerry is and will lead us down that path.

Talk to "our US soldiers". See what the majority of them say before you try to project your own thoughts on them, New...As for the innocents..I pray for them as much as I pray for any that die in war.

Ray

New2u
10-21-2004, 02:00 PM
Ray, I don't mean to be critical but what you're doing by saying this runs counter to your previous quote. By stating that Kerry is and will lead us down the same path as Kennedy, you're projecting your own thoughts on Kerry, there's a "conflict" here.

Venray's statements:
No. I am saying that John Kerry is and will lead us down that path.

Talk to "our soldiers". See what the majority of them say before you try to project your own thoughts on them, New...

venray
10-21-2004, 02:12 PM
There is no conflict here. I go by voting records. Kerry's is almost an exact match of Teddy's. Not to mention that they have been personal friends for years and both senators from massachusettes where I resided for over 16 years.

Take a look for yourself. You may be enlightened.

New2u
10-21-2004, 05:09 PM
Check out the "factcheck" website so you can "enlighten" yourself about Senator Kerry. Apparently, you're going by what Bush "claimed" about Kerry in some of "W"'s "ads". You apparently haven't seen "every" one of Kerry's 379 roll call votes when compared to Kennedy.

http://www.factcheck.org/article284.html

"...Brookings Institution authors Sarah Binder, Thomas Mann and Alan Murphy characterized Kerry as being "closer to the center of the Democratic Party than he is to the most liberal senators, including Mr. Kennedy."

"...Kerry is liberal and Bush is conservative by any ranking system. But to characterize Kerry as an extreme liberal or "most liberal" isn't supported by the facts.

So Ray, you don't have your facts quite straight on that. Voting "liberal" on somethings is like voting "conservative" on others. It doesn't automatically make senators or congressmen a "radical" for either side. Just because one is "friends with the other doesn't mean "diddly squat".

Ray, my friend, you are projecting your own feelings into this. I will admit though, I've done it too which makes me also guilty.

venray
10-22-2004, 12:53 AM
New..I have gone through his actual voting record and spent some time listening to him personally over the years while he was supposedly representing my interests (as a MA resident)

What he said and how he voted didnt match up then and still does not. I will not take a chance by voting for him ever again......especially not for the office of
president..

If by "projecting my feelings" you mean making judgements based on personal experience, than Guilty as Charged....

I do however that is the best way to make intelligent and informed decisions....I do lot listen to the "spin" from either side. I research before I cast my vote...Too bad more dont do the same before blindly casting their ballots along party lines based on promisses that will never be kept and non-existant "plans for a better America"

Elections haven't changed in years...;)

I Know that I when vote I am doing so after having done the math....

Oh...and I never said Kerry was the most Liberal...he would have had to show up more to gain that title.I merely likened him to Ted Kenedy...many of the votes he did manage to make were startlingly similar....and he has the same character flaws as the senior Senator from Massachusetts......


Ray

Mitchell
10-22-2004, 02:25 AM
By the way, although I know venray doesnt much value polls, I thought I'd post that the latest poll released today shows that Bush and Kerry are in a statistical dead heat. Also, Bush's approval rating remains below 50%, at 47%, which they say is in the "danger zone" for incumbent presidents, and is an indication that this election will be a horse race with 11 days to go.
Bottom line, as I said before, this race, I believe, will go to the wire. Factor in that Bill Clinton will be campaigning with Kerry next week, and the unknown number of newly registered voters whom many analyists believe may well vote Democratic, and it is anyone's election. It should be a very interesting 11 days until election day.

Mitch

venray
10-22-2004, 02:47 AM
It will be more of the same until the voters go to the polls and vote for the one that pissed them off the least....:rolleyes:

leafstk
10-22-2004, 04:06 AM
I still say its a lose/lose election :( I feel for the American people right now, because this is probably the most difficult decision they've had to face in some time. As a neighbour to the north, we keenly watch what is going on, but truly hold no faith in either man, whoever wins the election. I don't like Bush or the thought of him being in term for another 4 years, but I equally don't like the image of Kerry coming in and projecting an image of weakness. I fear a Kerry government could make more of a mess than we already find ourselves in. I just pray, however it goes, that sanity will prevail.

New2u
10-22-2004, 09:27 AM
But you are entitled to your opinion even though the "FactCheck" website authors' assessment do not agree with yours on Kerry, they've done the same as you and have gone through Kerry's voting record but have come up with a totally different scenario from yours. But I respect your opinion and you have a right to make it. Although your vote preception is a bit "biased" you're are putting more effort into the voting process than most people, I commend you for that.

One final note, the latest Washington Post poll shows that as many people approve of Bush's job as those who disapprove it. It really doesn't matter until November 2nd anyway.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/polls/2004292/q200/index.html