Iraqis capture seven year old boy

[theshire]

http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/enhancedstory.jsp?maxphotos=4&phototerm=Iraq+hostages&floc=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001/20041024/1049760355.htm&photoid=20041024BAG15D

What? Those 'peaceful' Muslims who we were wrong to attack unprovoked, committing despicable terrorist atrocities?

Perish the thought!

[ShadowTklr]

Originally posted by theshire
http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/enhancedstory.jsp?maxphotos=4&phototerm=Iraq+hostages&floc=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001/20041024/1049760355.htm&photoid=20041024BAG15D

What? Those 'peaceful' Muslims who we were wrong to attack unprovoked, committing despicable terrorist atrocities?

Perish the thought!

I gotta say, I'm surprised at your quip, Shire.
Let's stop and rewind the tape for a sec., okay? These "peace-loving muslims" you're talking about were NOT the people who attacked us on 9/11. They are NOT the terrorist organizations we initially set out to locate and destroy in Afghanistan. They were not seeking to kill Americans until AFTER we invaded their country unprovoked, and started slaughtering their civilians by the thousands - men, women and children blown up, torn apart, shattered and dismembered.

These aren't supposed to be "accepted collateral damage" as justification for hitting the heart of terrorism. We're talking about bands of militant rebels that we helped to create as a result of our actions, who are using the only means of warfare available to them. This most certainly does not excuse the kidnapping, or harming of a child, under ANY circumstances.

If I may add some dimension to your comment though, I would like to ask you, did we give any thought to the 100's of children we have exterminated as a result of our bombing campaigns over the last year and a half? I don't think I've seen anyone really address that here. I could be wrong. How many of our missiles-gone-awry have claimed the lives of innocent Iraqi children?

Do the lives of Iraqi children mean so much less than the lives of American children, or British? Are innocent Iraqi families expected to simply deal with the insurmountable loss of their children because, after all, Freedom is on the march?

Without attempting to defend ANY action that harms a child, it should be pointed out that long before this one child was "captured" (like it makes sense to capture a child), we were killing Iraqi children like rats.

Tears? Anyone?

[Cosmo_ac]

A VERY good response, Shadow. I think you've said enough that i don't have to post on this subject, which is probably best for Shire. It is unfortionate that this child was kidapped, however, my money says he'll be released.

[theshire]

Yes, because kidknapping children who are not even one of the people who are attacking you is clearly a work of organised resistance. :rolleyes:

You can make no excuses for terrorising a child. NONE WHATSOEVER. But let's be realistic here. This is a war. People die in wars. About a third of the poulation are likely to be children, so let's assume that children make up about a third of the civilian body count in Iraq. That's two thirds of civilians who are adults. Don't they get any attention?

Of course, if I was a parent of a child who died in a war, I would be very upset, even angry at the enemy. But, as far as I know, the US/UK armed forces are not delibrately targeting children, and even liberated a school at one point, if I remember rightly.

But does anyone here have any actual figures about infant death tolls in Iraq? If you have, and you can show me that more children have died than adults in the war so far, then I might change my mind.

[Cosmo_ac]

Yes, because kidknapping children who are not even one of the people who are attacking you is clearly a work of organised resistance.

You can make no excuses for terrorising a child. NONE WHATSOEVER.

So, your saying any group that did something like this would be beyond contempt? No matter what there reasons?




If you have, and you can show me that more children have died than adults in the war so far, then I might change my mind.

Just curious, but why does there have to be more dead children then adults? There still dead.

[theshire]

So, your saying any group that did something like this would be beyond contempt? No matter what there reasons?

No. I would hold a high level of contempt for them. Why would they be beyond contempt? Anyone who deliberately sets out to harm or cause distress of any kind to a child is vermin, in my opinion.

Just curious, but why does there have to be more dead children then adults? There still dead.

Because I'm fed up with people implying that Bush and his Evil Empire set out to murder kids in Iraq. So if you can show me any figures which suggest that to be the case, then perhaps I'll change my mind on it.

[gibby59]

ShadowTklr's response is not very good. It's actually very sad and misguided. He makes it sound like the US went into Iraq specifically to "slaughter" innocent men, women and children. That's not even close to the truth. To say that our actions created bands of militant rebels is ludicrous. These "bands" have existed for years.

I do not know how many missiles, if any, have gone astray and killed innocent Iraqi children. We do know that Saddam slaughtered 1000s of innocent Iraqi children. Mass graves are still being uncovered, revealing the gruesome deeds of Saddam's barbaric regime. No, the lives of Iraqi children are not worth less than American or British or any other country's children, and for you to imply that the US is killing them like "rats" is revolting and an outright lie. If you want to see how much respect militant rebel bands of muslims have for the lives of children, read the accounts of the terrorism at the school in Russia. I fear that this young boy may never see his parents again, and that is very sad indeed.

[drew70]

Guys like Shadow and Cosmo will do their best to take any situation or incident and twist it around to make it seem like the fault of the U.S. and our allies. Forget about moral accountability or putting blame where it belongs. From here on out, whatever the terrorists do, no matter how heinous, the extreme left liberals will say the fault lies with the U.S. led coalition, because we're "creating terrorists" and we're "leaving them with no other option." It's pretty sad, actually. When you stop making people accountable for their own actions, there is really little more to talk about.

[Cosmo_ac]

No. I would hold a high level of contempt for them. Why would they be beyond contempt? Anyone who deliberately sets out to harm or cause distress of any kind to a child is vermin, in my opinion.

For once we agree, Shire.




Some food for thought...


quote:
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Soldiers looking for terrorists storm an apartment. Children are sometimes arrested during these raids. What the Army does with them, it will not say. We investigate. Meet with sources.
One that knows something about this is Sergeant Samuel Provance, from the US Military. He spent half a year stationed at Abu Ghraib. Today, 5 months later, we meet him in Heidelberg. His superiors have strictly forbidden him to speak to journalists about what he experienced in Abu Ghraib. But Provance wants to talk about it nevertheless. His conscience troubles him. He discusses a 16-year old he handled:

"He was very afraid, very alone. He had the thinnest arms I had ever seen.
His whole body trembled. His wrists were so thin we couldn't put handcuffs on him. As I saw him for the first time and led him to the interrogation, I felt sorry. The interrogation specialists threw water over him and put him into a car, drove him around through the extremely cold night. Afterwards, they covered him with mud and showed him to his imprisoned father, on whom they'd tried other interrogation methods.

They hadn't been able to get him to speak, though. The interrogation specialists told me that after the father saw his son in this condition, his heart was broken, he started crying, and he promised to tell them anything they wanted." --Samuel Provance

After this however the son remained in detention, and the 16-year old was put in with the adults. But Provance discusses a special children's section at Abu Ghraib -- a secret detention facility.

One that has seen the children's section with his own eyes is the Iraqi journalist Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz. Our correspondent met with him in Baghdad. He explains how he was picked up while reporting and jailed 74 days in Abu Ghraib:

"There I saw a camp for kids, young, certainly not yet of puberty age. There must have been hundreds of kids. Some were released, others are certainly still there." --Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz

From his cell in the adult's section he hears a girl of maybe 12 years of age crying. Later he found out that her brother was held in a cell on the second floor of the prison. Once or twice he says, he saw the girl himself. [...] "She called out her brother's name. She was beaten, she cried out "they took off my clothes, they poured water on me."" --Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz

He heard her cries every day. [...]

These accounts from witnesses are difficult to corroborate. We look for additional proof of the detention of children. We find it at UNICEF, which has written this explosive report, published a few days ago [June 2004, -S,N!]:

"Children picked up in Basra and Kerbala were routinely transferred to a prison in Um Qasr." --UNICEF

The prison in Um Qasr. These images were shot in 2003. Today, it is too dangerous for reporters to drive to Um Qasr. This facility, a detention center for terrorists and criminals, would have also held children.

"This classification of children as 'prisoners' is alarming given that they are held for an undetermined period of time, without contact with their family or expectation of a trial." --UNICEF

UNICEF will not make any comments about this yet to be released report. [...] We look for additional information and contact the International Committee of the Red Cross. After several discussions, additional confirmation, including numbers:

"Over the course of 19 visits in 6 different detention facilities from January to May of this year, we counted 107 children. These facilities were under the control of coalition troops." --Florian Westphal, ICRC.

The ICRC found minors in both Qasr and Abu Ghraib. Two international organizations confirm, independently, that coalition troops have jailed Iraqi children. But information directly from the prisons remains unavailable. UNICEF was not able to visit the children's prison in Baghdad:

"UNICEF asked to visit this facility in July 2003, but access was denied." --UNICEF

No independent observers have been in this facility since December, according to UNICEF. [...]

During a visit for the press at Abu Ghraib, no children were seen. We stand by our report: Four sources confirm independently the detention of children in Iraq. Two witnesses allege abuse. [...]

--Report by Thomas Reutter.

Contacted for comments, the British Defense Ministry has said its troops have not detained minors and children. We have yet to receive an answer from the Pentagon. --Fritz Frey, Host.
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http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/000732.html

If you read the fay report, or some reports on the report, one of the things General fay meantions, is how in one scene where a dog handler released his dog into a cell with two fifteen year olds to terrorize them into weeting there pants. Aperently he was in competition with another guard to see who could make who wet there pants in terror the fastest. And the compettion wasn't just with these kids, i got the impression that it was an ongoing competition, which even though people saw, none reported it. If nothing more this goes to show that indeed, there were children beiong held at these prisons, and they were being openly abused.

But, thats not all.


quote:
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" Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out."
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This is from a speech by Seymore Hersh, who broke the AbuGhraib story on 60 minutes. Now, in the Fay report, there is meantion of a minor getting raped bye a translater (he was suspected of being gay apparently) and photogrpahed by a female soldier. however, none of the pictures have shown up (at least none for the report. remember the pentagon would have got all this info first before Fay did), so the investigation into that case hasn't been able to verify this alegation. However, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.



quote:
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on May 10, MSNBC. So unless someone can get ahold of the tape, there is really nothing "new" to this news. The only news is Sy's description of the scream and the context of parents witnessing. The SCLM glossed over it when it was news. The rest of humanity doesn't gloss over child rape.
"RUMSFELD: There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman.

MIKLASZEWSKI: U.S. military officials tell NBC News, the unreleased images, show American soldiers severely beating one Iraqi prisoner to near death; apparently, raping an Iraqi female prisoner; acting inappropriately with a dead body; and Iraqi guards apparently videotaped by U.S. soldiers raping young boys.

SEN. LINDSAY GRAHAM ®, SOUTH CAROLINA: We`re talking about rape and murder here, we`re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience, we`re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.

MIKLASZEWSKI: Senator Carl Levin raised questions about one photo which appeared to show the abuse of prisoners may not be random, but part of routine operations.

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: That the conduct we were witnessing and watching was not aberrant conduct of a few individuals, but part of an organized and conscious process to extract information. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[theshire]

MIKLASZEWSKI: U.S. military officials tell NBC News, the unreleased images, show American soldiers severely beating one Iraqi prisoner to near death; apparently, raping an Iraqi female prisoner; acting inappropriately with a dead body; and Iraqi guards apparently videotaped by U.S. soldiers raping young boys.

Not that this excuses all of that other stuff, but I think I heard somewhere that this turned out to actually be a group of soldiers that were laughing at an old man who had passed out (I tried to find a link about this, but it no longer works). Still not PC, but I think it calls into question the reliability of some of the abuse reports.

[Cosmo_ac]

actually, i'm fairly certain there talking about the dead body that was packed in ice, with two soldiers, first one male and then one female, kneeling over the body giving it a thumbs up and a smile.

[gibby59]

His quote says un-released images. The one of the dead Iraqi and the thumbs up was widely circulated prior to the court martial proceedings.

[Cosmo_ac]

Gibby, those quotes are fairly old, from i believe around the time the Abu Graib scandle was just breaking news. However, they're could be other pictures we haven't seeen. If i remember right, there were hundreds of photos, and only about 24 tops have made it to the public.

[ShadowTklr]

Originally posted by gibby59
ShadowTklr's response is not very good. It's actually very sad and misguided. He makes it sound like the US went into Iraq specifically to "slaughter" innocent men, women and children. That's not even close to the truth. To say that our actions created bands of militant rebels is ludicrous. These "bands" have existed for years.

You're right, gibby59. I re-read my post and it does sound like that. Let me rephrase by amending my statement: "They were not seeking to kill Americans until AFTER we invaded their country unprovoked, and started slaughtering their civilians by the thousands, as a result of our bombing campaigns - men, women and children blown up, torn apart, shattered and dismembered."
There. That speaks more to the point I was trying to make. Thanks for the heads up.


I do not know how many missiles, if any, have gone astray and killed innocent Iraqi children. We do know that Saddam slaughtered 1000s of innocent Iraqi children. Mass graves are still being uncovered, revealing the gruesome deeds of Saddam's barbaric regime. No, the lives of Iraqi children are not worth less than American or British or any other country's children, and for you to imply that the US is killing them like "rats" is revolting and an outright lie.

Well, firstly, given that many casualties of war are children, and given that they need not have been casualties of our bombing raids at all, and given that many of them are dead as a direct result of our bombing raids, I'm afraid it IS revolting, but not even close to being a lie.

If you want to see how much respect militant rebel bands of muslims have for the lives of children, read the accounts of the terrorism at the school in Russia. I fear that this young boy may never see his parents again, and that is very sad indeed.

No argument there either.

[ShadowTklr]

Originally posted by drew70
Guys like Shadow and Cosmo will do their best to take any situation or incident and twist it around to make it seem like the fault of the U.S. and our allies. Forget about moral accountability or putting blame where it belongs. From here on out, whatever the terrorists do, no matter how heinous, the extreme left liberals will say the fault lies with the U.S. led coalition, because we're "creating terrorists" and we're "leaving them with no other option." It's pretty sad, actually. When you stop making people accountable for their own actions, there is really little more to talk about.

Hmmm. Okay, let's pretend for a second that your loyalty lies more with human beings than it does with the ideology of conservatism, and allow me to give you a poignant, albeit ridiculous example that should illustrate the not-so-ridiculous perspective from which I, and many other human beings formulate our opinions.

You are among a group of people admiring a street performer on a sidewalk in any city. You get into a disagreement with someone there, and you push them. On their way to the ground, they fall on an old lady who drops her pocketbook from the impact and it tumbles to the ground. The fire-eater, performing his routine, trips over the pocketbook, and blows flames on an innocent spectator who runs screaming into the street and is hit by a car, which now catches fire and explodes, sending debree through the windows of a nearby office building, followed by an ongoing chain reaction of injury and destruction.

If not for the actions of an over zealous President:
we would not have endeavored into an illegitimate invasion of a sovereign country which posed no clear and present danger - a country with whom we could have persisted toward a diplomatic resolve;
we would not have lost 1100+ soldiers unnecessarily;
we would not have accidentally killed thousands of Iraqi innocents, including hundreds of children;
we would have more forces available to hunt down and kill Osama Bin Laden wherever he may be;
we would not have spent 120 Billion dollars, which has resulted in a quagmire of rebel factions, gangs, chaos, and further terrorism;
we would have been able to develop a peace-keeping strategy and exit strategy before the invasion, and
we would have had more support from the international community.

I believe that President Bush truly wanted Iraq to be his finest hour, but he jumped too soon, he didn't have a plan, and the result is a string of terrible failures, to which you can do nothing more than rant the word Liberal.