Why is the American flag offensive to some?

[Latin_Boy]

Someone with an actual argument PLEASE answer that question. I am flabbergasted by all the stories about patriotic workers being asked to remove American flags for fear that someone may find these *offensive*. Please! You are in American soil! The flag does not represent an oppressive government; it is a symbol of the battles our ancestors have won and the blood they've shed to ensure our freedoms. I have plenty to talk about on this issue, but I want to see how some of you out there feel. Why on earth would someone deem the flag as offensive?! I'd like some feedback on this.

Latin_Boy

[Myriads]

You used the key word in your post.

Symbol.

Symbols take on different and highly specific meanings to each viewer.

You see the flag as a symbol of all the good things you mentioned. Most do.

Some however have had reasons to attach other meanings to the symbol. The reasons why are as varied as the people who hold them. Each will hold a different answer for you.

Myriads

[hawkikim]

Originally posted by Latin_Boy
You are in American soil! The flag does not represent an oppressive government; it is a symbol of the battles our ancestors have won and the blood they've shed to ensure our freedoms.


Myriads actually responded quite well to this. I just want to reiterate that while the vast majority of us respond to the flag as a symbol of freedom (to some of us, it can actually cause a lump in the throat and a tear in the eye)sometimes, to some, it can be something else. And while I cannot personally understand the something else, it is not my place to belittle the feelings or beliefs of those who don't see that beautiful swatch of red, white & blue fabric the same way as I do. Our country is SO much MORE than just a flag anyway. If we can get so riled up about a piece of fabric, it seems there may be other insecurities or issues that need to be addressed,IMHO

Oh, and I am not IN American soil...not yet. ;) Of course, I MIGHT be...and SOON, if someone misinterprets this post! LOL

USA - There's nowhere else I'D rather be!

Kim

[Latin_Boy]

This is still no reason to accommodate to everyone's stupid request to remove every symbol that somehow may be construed as offensive. I think this whole P.C. society is getting WAY out of hand. I don't think I'm being narrow-minded here, nor am I undermining anyone’s feelings; I just don’t see the negative symbolic aspect in a flag -- especially if you are already in the country -- unless it is “obviously” inappropriate. If I display the American flag in a Japanese cemetery, that's offensive; if I do it in American soil, though, under most circumstances (like the ones I’ve heard about), I can't see how anyone could find this offensive. Why doesn't the White House, for example -- with hundreds of flags inside -- remove them when world leaders come meet with our president? It's ridiculous.

A sign with the words "God Bless America" posted shortly after 9-11 was banned in a California school because one parent -- one out of thousands -- was angry that the school was "mixing church and state", forcing his kid to believe in this God. Let me ask this: Which *God* is this sign advocating? I know someone is going to ask, "Well, what if the child and his father are Atheists?" But then, I'm offended by people wearing black clothes. In my religion, wearing black signifies negative and defamatory feelings for those around you. Does this mean I should sue the school if my teachers ever wear black? This kind of ridiculous non-sense is what drives me insane.
This same God also appears in all United States currency -- "In God We Trust", it says. But I don't see the ACLU or the like boycotting their dollars..

Latin_Boy

[hawkikim]

Originally posted by Latin_Boy
This is still no reason to accommodate to everyone's stupid request to remove every symbol that somehow may be construed as offensive. Latin_Boy

Well, this is a MUCH bigger issue than just the flag, and I happen to agree with you. Empathy and sensitivity are fine qualities, but if a person is going to spend his/her life worrying that every little thing is going to offend every single person, well, that's kinda a waste of energy, IMHO.

But it truly goes deeper than that. Symbols are merely physical representations of an idea or ideal. Arguing against displaying a particular symbol is a manifestation of a disagreement with an idea, and that is all that it is. As with any disagreement, it is easier to bar the physical representation of the disagreement (i.e., the symbol) than it is to discuss and resolve that which caused the disagreement in the first place.

Personally, I find it sad that so much energy is expended on the symbols themselves and not on studying/discussing/advancing the ideas/ideals that created them in the first place.

Peace!

Kim

[shark]

This PC crowd has been getting away with it for far too long.If I could,I would consider them traitors(as I already do)and have them deported.Any person can have any opinion they want,but this bunch thinks they are superior to all others and must be bowed to.If they are offended,tough...their existence offends me and many others.And I only bow in prayer to God,not these self-appointed dictators.

[thefeatheroom95]

People who dont like the american flag are terrorists and i find them offensive. There has always been an american flag hanging at where i work, and people are just now finding it offensive. Thats some strange
messed up crap there.

[dvnc]

What? I'm a traitor 'cause I'm not Christian, and don't wish to hear Christian rhetoric.

*stepping back to await fireworks*

Didja respond? Perhaps, then, some consideration is needed.

Keep in mind, brethren, that America is an amalgamation of many cultures and religions. Do have respect for those that don't have anyone named "God" in their worship. I, too, wish to give respect to those deserving such, and giving blessings is a fine notion, but declaring them in the name of another deity, outside of my faith, rubs me wrong. That, gents, is a point of inconsideration from ya. I WANT you to have the right to follow your faith. I also want the right to follow mine. It's that whole SHARING thing we all were supposed to learn in kindergarten.

"Bless America" is as viable, and doesn't stab at anyone. There's not a faith that doesn't bless, and there's a secular definition for "bless" that allows such without issue. Rather than considering our countryfolk, it's better to argue the right of expression of faith? Not appropriate now. Argue it AFTER we've no one screwin' with us.

While I ain't one to sweat the over-zealous nature of folks sprouting flags in inappropriate manner, there IS a right way declared for such, too. What? You didn't memorize this in high school? Neither did I. There IS a declared correct way, and alas, we're stompin' it into the ground. Trivia? Depends. How faithful are YOU to this country's main icon? We're Americans, and now's the time to know such.

Rather than debate the Christianity versus the rest of the faiths on the planet, or fight amongst ourselves like children, let's drop all that and peep at the US declared code for such flag display:

The United States Code Title 36, Chapter 10 -
Patriotic Customs:

ß174. Time and occasions for display
(a) Display on buildings and stationary flagstaffs in open; night display
It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.

(b) Manner of hoisting
The flag should be hoisted briskly and lowered ceremoniously.

(c) Inclement weather
The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is inclement, except when an all weather flag is displayed.

(d) Particular days of display
The flag should be displayed on all days, especially on New Year's Day, January 1; Inauguration Day, January 20; Lincoln's Birthday, February 12; Washington's Birthday, third Monday in February; Easter Sunday (variable); Mother's Day, second Sunday in May; Armed Forces Day, third Saturday in May; Memorial Day (half-staff until noon), the last Monday in May; Flag Day, June 14; Independence Day, July 4; Labor Day, first Monday in September; Constitution Day, September 17; Columbus Day, second Monday in October; Navy Day, October 27; Veterans Day, November 11; Thanksgiving Day, fourth Thursday in November; Christmas Day, December 25; and such other days as may be proclaimed by the President of the United States; the birthdays of States (date of admission); and on State holidays.

(e) Display on or near administration building of
public institutions
The flag should be displayed daily on or near the main administration building of every public institution.

(f) Display in or near polling places
The flag should be displayed in or near every polling place on election days.

(g) Display in or near schoolhouses
The flag should be displayed during school days in or near every schoolhouse.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ß175. Position and manner of display
The flag, when carried in a procession with another flag or flags, should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag's own right, or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that line.
(a) The flag should not be displayed on a float in a parade except from a staff, or as provided in subsection (i) of this section.
(b) The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender.
(c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof: Provided, That nothing in this section shall make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of superior prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions of equal prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United States at the headquarters of the United Nations.
(d) The flag of the United States of America, when it is displayed with another flag against a wall from crossed staffs, should be on the right, the flag's own right, and its staff should be in front of the staff of the other flag.
(e) The flag of the United States of America should be at the center and at the highest point of the group when a number of flags of States or localities or pennants of societies are grouped and displayed from staffs.
(f) When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's right.
(g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.
(h) When the flag of the United States is displayed from a staff projecting horizontally or at an angle from the window sill, balcony, or front of a building, the union of the flag should be placed at the peak of the staff unless the flag is at half staff. When the flag is suspended over a sidewalk from a rope extending from a house to a pole at the edge of the sidewalk, the flag should be hoisted out, union first, from the building.
(i) When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street.
(j) When the flag is displayed over the middle of the street, it should be suspended vertically with the union to the north in an east and west street or to the east in a north and south street.
(k) When used on a speaker's platform, the flag, if displayed flat, should be displayed above and behind the speaker. When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience.
(l) The flag should form a distinctive feature of the ceremony of unveiling a statue or monument, but it should never be used as the covering for the statue or monument.
(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff thirty days from the death of the President or a former President; ten days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. As used in this subsection -
(1) the term 'half-staff' means the position of the flag when it is one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff;
(2) the term 'executive or military department' means any agency listed under sections 101 and 102 of title 5; and
(3) the term 'Member of Congress' means a Senator, a Representative, a Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico.
(n) When the flag is used to cover a casket, it should be so placed that the union is at the head and over the left shoulder. The flag should not be lowered into the grave or allowed to touch the ground.
(o) When the flag is suspended across a corridor or lobby in a building with only one main entrance, it should be suspended vertically with the union of the flag to the observer's left upon entering. If the building has more than one main entrance, the flag should be suspended vertically near the center of the corridor or lobby with the union to the north, when entrances are to the east and west or to the east when entrances are to the north and south. If there are entrances in more than two directions, the union should be to the east.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ß176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ß177. Conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag
During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present except those in uniform should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should render the military salute. When not in uniform, men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Aliens should stand at attention. The salute to the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.


This lesson of US customs is brought to you by your friendly neighborhood mod,

dvnc

[red indian]

Are you one of those people who avoids walking on the cracks in paving stones on the way home dvnc?

[shark]

I just rechecked my post.I still can't see any reference to Christianity or any other religion.My reference was strictly to the politically correct crowd,who have no problem coercing people to believe in secular humanism.

[dvnc]

ROFL, red! Nah, brother. I don't worry about such things. I personally don't sweat much of anything, these days. Just figured that, if we were gonna DISCUSS this, then we ought to pick ONE avenue of discussion, and go there.

Since the religion aspect is somethin' we've been on in other threads for MONTHS, I'm for leavin' that there, and encourage folks wantin' t'dive in to read the back posts, so as to appear informed and intelligent in their commentary.


Originally posted by shark
This PC crowd has been getting away with it for far too long.If I could,I would consider them traitors(as I already do)and have them deported.Any person can have any opinion they want,but this bunch thinks they are superior to all others and must be bowed to.If they are offended,tough...their existence offends me and many others. And I only bow in prayer to God,not these self-appointed dictators.

Indeed, shark, everyone DOES have their opinion. Mine disagrees with yours. That's part of the American way, brother. That my existence offends you is hurtful, and thus, sad. Hurts my feelings, man.

Note this, now:

Originally posted by shark
I just rechecked my post.I still can't see any reference to Christianity or any other religion.My reference was strictly to the politically correct crowd,who have no problem coercing people to believe in secular humanism.
Note the two quotes, shark. Were you not praying to the Christian God, above, in the first thread quoted, when you discuss where you bow in prayer? I italicized it for ya.

I illustrate this to point out, to you and to all, that we all, as humans, can forget that we keep our faith close to us. You forgot you made reference to God in your previous post. I pointed it out, you mistook yourself, and rather than fight you, I seek merely to illustrate that it's present, and that such presence SHOULD be noticed, and that your God, and mine, and theirs, will be different in some cases. That's part of why I say, with great regularity, that it's all about the love, brother. I respect your right to worship as you see fit, and will fight other countries for your right, and mine. I just wish it to be a VISIBLE right. I want you to know it's there.

I don't think you need to respect my higher power, and I don't think I need to respect yours. I *DO* need to respect YOU, brother, as a fellow American. Dig? Ain't about anything other than respect of those around us, especially our countryfolk.

Now, folks, that FLAG thing HAS a source for the correct usage. Debate solved. I've posted such, and now we can argue about whether or not the founding fathers have such delineated appropriately. I think they have. Anyone disagree? Are you using your flag properly?

Last thought, on the flag topic - if you're using it wrongly, according to National Law, does it mean you're a bad person? Nope, especially not in the means intended. Given the knowledge passed on, now, do right by those lost to us, and fighting for us, and use the SYMBOL as it's meant, as respect to them, and to us as a nation.

THAT'S what I'm sayin'.

Peace,

dvnc

[shark]

The post was meant to convey that I will not accept the secular humanists as a substitute for my worship,no matter if many of them want it that way.I was not referring to you,as it is obvious that you do not see things in the same light as they.

[Krokus]

Well, Im Not Gonna Waste My Time Typing For An Hour Just To Look Smart, So My Answer Is That Some People Are Just Ignorant.

[Strelnikov]

Jeez, DVNC, I figured you must have thrown away your Scout's Handbook years ago, but now you've resurrected the Flag Merit Badge section. I'm impressed.

I see nothing wrong with public religious expression in public venues. We believers are part of the public too. Where is it written that ours is the only culture and tradition that can be disrespected? If you choose to take offense, that's on you, not us.

Short answer to the question about the flag is that there are some who hate this country and what it stands for. By no means all of those people are foreigners. A lot of them are my fellow Boomers, now tenured university faculty, working in the establishment media, and other members of the chattering classes. These are the folks that love free speech, but only so long as it agrees with them. They dreamed up the PC speech codes, that give anyone whose feelings are easily hurt a veto over the speech of others. They've gotten away with it because the civil and/or academic authorities are conflict-averse (i. e., craven cowards) and unwilling to defend true free speech.

There's a bright side, though. Since 9/11, Americans are less likely to tolerate these pissants and more likely to shout them down or demand their removal. The same craven cowards are now bending with the prevailing wind, and enforcing the pissants' own speech codes against them! Halleluia, come the day! The Germans have a talent for inventing expressive and useful compound words, one of which describes my feelings. Ask Hal to define "Schadenfreude" for you.

Strelnikov

[dvnc]

Strel, your praise compliments me well. Thank you, sir!

Krokus, I didn't HAVE to type all that. That's a US Code, son. It's available online, and I'd had it mailed to me by a fine friend o' mine. BTW, while talkin' 'bout wasted time and such, what's wit' all the capitalized words? ;) Seriously, though, use o' the flag is a sign of respect, and misuse, a disrespect. Now, when you display a flag, you don't do so in ignorance of it's officially-sanctioned usage. I *am* flattered t'think you thought I looked smart wit' that post. It didn't tire me to paste the US Code section in.

Shark, thanks for the clarification.

Evilqueen, that decision-making process is common for retail-commercialism. Sadly, it'll take more than ten of us to write our Congressman to protest ANYTHING and get it noticed. Worse, in revenge, you get regular mailings from them thereafter.

another $0.02,

dvnc

[shark]

your welcome dvnc.Next time I'll be extremely specific in a post.

[kyle]

It is my opinion that any public meeting or public place should have the right to display the flag and say the pledge without threaten of suit or losing their job. I'm sorry if it offends someone. If you live in the United States you can say the pledge and look at the flag. If it offends you I would personally like to beat your ass then ship you off to some 3rd world country and see how you like it.

[dvnc]

ROFL! Thanks for your opinion, kyle, but it conflicts with The United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10 - Patriotic Customs Code, where flag us is concerned. Wanna question that? Talk to the marines, bub, or any other branch of our military. Those folks take that seriously, and fight and die for such. Those that refuse, live in Leavenworth for many years at a time.

There's RULES for use of the American flag. If you're American, you should respect those rules. It's be sad to think that immigrants deal with this more loyally than those of us that are native-born.

The pledge wasn't questioned here, but since you mention it, I agree that you should be able to pledge to your heart's content. Free speech, and all o' that.

As for beatin' some dullard who's too damned dumb to respect his country, why beat 'em? Why not just export 'em to somewhere they can respect? Does it HAVE to come to blows? :confused:

dvnc

[kyle]

Yes, I would export them too, but first I would beat them.

[ham tyler]

i am from ireland and flags here certainly have a potency and can conjure up all sorts of feelings. the tri colour of green, white and orange is the national flag of the 26 counties of the republic of ireland. in the republic it is a very proud symbol and is often brandished by irish people when abroad on sporting trips or going to rock festivals. in the north of ireland which is still under british rule, the majority of unionist protestants see the tri-colour as a flag representative of militant republicanism and nationlism and associate the flag with the likes of the i.r.a and other republican paramilitary organisations that have fought the british presence in northern ireland for many years. protestant unionists on the whole do not recognise the legitimacy of people who consider themselves irish to brandish the tri-colour and try and oppress it at every turn. in london on st patricks day a number of years ago, a tri-colour was displayed in the british government buildings in celebration of the day, a unionist politician was so incensed in seeing this flag on display that he took the flag down and threw it into the river thames. the union jack flag representing britishness in northern ireland is also prominently displayed on lamp posts in protestant areas to leave no doubt as to allegiance and also to promote sectarian hatred. just thought i would share this perspective on national flags with you all.

[dvnc]

Thanks, Ham. Didn't know the details on that, and they were interesting, if a good bit sad. Does make you wonder what good England thinks it has in "holding" Ireland. I never understand that, but I'm over here, and details aren't as clear on the whole deal. I'm still amazed that Scotland stays so quietly participative.

Hope things get kinder there soon for ya.

dvnc

[SlaverTickler]

Anyone who finds a countries flag offensive should leave that country.
NUFF SAID!!!

[shark]

HEAR HEAR, SLAVER!

[red indian]

Blimey Ham! are you after a flame war? bringing the irish question in to this peacfull backwater of the nett? what ARE you thinking of?!! any way at risk of you coming after me with "black and decker" here is my view. You say that the Irish Tricolour is "seen" as being associated with the I.R.A. by unionists, well what other flag are they associated with? I think even gerry adams would admitt to being associated with the Irish Tricolour and he is a member of the I.R.A. army council.You single out the loyalists for displaying their flag on lamp posts and thereby promoting sectarian hatred, well the republicans do exactly the same on their streets with flags and are you seriously telling me that the I.R.A have never been involved in sectarian killings? again even "saint gerry of adams" would come clean on that one.

DVNC.Just to give you a different perspective on Hams remarks. In the states you have been fighting a terrorist war since the 11 of sept, over here in England we have been fighting a terrorist war for over 30 years against the I.R.A. so to give you an analogy on Hams remarks about the Irish flag being thrown in the Thames what do you think would happen in New York if some guy started waving the Osama Binladen flag?.....well thats how most of England feels about the I.R.A. and that is why we are supporting you now because we know what terrorist attrocities are like.


On your point about England pointlessly "holding on" to Northern Ireland like many americans you may not be aware that the majority of people in N.I. are British and have been there for hundreds of years.


As regards Scotland we had a referendum a while back and the Scots voted to have their own parliament which is now up and running. Meanwhile in the English parliament we have a great many scots mp,s and we also now have a large element of our present government made up of scots including cabinet ministers, so have they all given up their jobs in the English parliament and rallied to the Scots flag?.......errrr......no. NUFF SAID!!!

[red indian]

my own view on the Irish question is that we should have a word with the U.S. Navy and see if they have a couple of aircraft carriers spare, and get them to tow the goddam place out in to the middle of the atlantic and leave it there.

[dvnc]

Yow! Scorching sentiment, red. Seems like there's clearly tensions HERE, about there, as there seems to be in all the papers I read. Sorry to see that it's still so hot. Keep hopin' that'll resolve.

Note that I, an American, didn't jump in with supportive rhetoric. We (America) DID leave the commonwealth on bad terms. We just learned to play nicely afterwards. We had English citizens here, too.

Oh, and the moderator pitch, here:
please tone down from heated debate to reasoned debate. Your tone *seems* heated, whether that's the intent or not. Many here don't know your writing style, and may think your emphatic response is argumentative, where I interpret it as your writing style. I know you're too sharp to WANT to peeve folks or set off touchy moderators like me, so I'm just deliverin' the pitch so you know you're lookin' a good bit agressive, here. Ham's perspective is as valid as yours, regardless of it's opposition. Note that Q and I disagree reasonably, etc. It's possible, brother. Just takes a bit of extra effort.

dvnc

[ham tyler]

re: red indians post.

i certainly didnt mean to start an anglo-irish war here. leave that to the thugs on the street. i was merely using the northern irish context to demonstrate how contentious flags can be. to the vast majority of peace loving irish nationalists, the tri-colour is the flag of our nation and a proud symbol at that. i was merely pointing out how our flag is deemed offensive to some, and being irish and proud of my flag and nation and being peace loving, of course i am going to be biased in defence of my national flag, and please dont construe my defence of my flag as being pro-paramilitarism. i never once suggested in my post that the i.r.a were not responsible for heinous acts of carnage. all sides are guilty of grotesque atrocities and none are blameless. i take exception to u equating or making the comparison between an "osama bin laden flag" which is not a national flag, i am sure his association has an emblem, but it is representative of terrorism and not a nation, and the irish national flag. am i too assume that people in the uk also associate the tri-colour with armed revolution? your comments on the majority in the north of ireland being british is true, but they werent always there and british governments have conceded that there is no strategic interest in holding on to the north. however this is not the forum to flaunt the out dated anti-british, anti-rrish agendas. i think both our fine nations have progressed considerably since then and i am sure red indian is amongst the progressive minded, i think he took me up wrong that is all. but i have too agree alot of people here and the uk would be as happy to see the north set adrift, sad sentiments i know.

[Haltickling]

IMO, the terrorist wing in the IRA hides behind the symbol of the Irish nation, abusing the flag as much as the Taliban abused the Afghani flag. The very fact that all IRA terrorists use the Irish flag doesn't allow the reverse conclusion; the Irish are certainly not a nation of terrorists. No terrorist group from whatever origin has the right to abuse any national flag!

[Strelnikov]

Hal's post tells me that it's time to throw another bomb.

An ancestor of mine was a Northern veteran of the Civil War. My wife's ancestors were on the other side, so our daughter has both in her bloodline. Soldiers enlist for many reasons, but the common ones were suppressing the Rebellion (North) and defending their homes (South.) It's easier to make a case for the Southerners, on grounds of self-determination. Bear in mind that the North didn't allow Blacks to enlist until mid-war, because the prevailing mainstream view was that the war was a dispute between REAL (i. e. White) Americans.

The Confederate battle flag was used during the Civil Rights struggle as a symbol of resistance to Federal authority (in other words, "Don't tread on me.") Some on the extreme fringes still use it as such. But in this part of the country it has other symbolism: pride in our ancestors. The Southern soldier exemplifies what's best about the American citizen soldier. I'm talking about courage, resourcefulness, fortitude, humor, perseverance in the face of adversity. After the war, some of those men went on to fight Indians in the post-war US Army. Most went home, picked up the threads of their lives, and helped to build post-war America.

The 167th Infantry (National Guard) is a direct descendent of the Alabama Brigade that fought with distinction under Robert E. Lee. There are Territorial Regiments in the British Army that similarly descend from units that fought on both sides of their Civil War. The British Army acknowledges the connection. It's unfortunate that the US Army can't do likewise. Maybe in another 100 years...

Strelnikov

[red indian]

You are right to say I am progressive minded Ham and I certainly have no animosity towards you or the Irish in general so dont get me wrong I am no bowler hatted Orangeman (dont they look RIDICULOUS in those "john cleese ministry of funny walks" outfits?!) you seem to aggree with me largely and I was giving a loosly unionist view as against your Republican view but your point about what a flag represents is a good topic for debate and there are a number of good contributions on this thread and I have no problem in debating further with you on it. My remarks about flame wars and black and deckers were jokes, not very well recieved ones it seems! never mind I will add them to my collection.



DVNC.Thanks for seeing my post for what it was,ie healthy robust debate and I can (just about) see that others may not take that view but I must say that i am becoming confused about the "rules" on this forum. I always try to make my posts witty and stimulating and sometimes I poke fun at others,but I never resort to foul language or personal abuse. However I have been on the wrong end of this kind of language from a Moderator, now I am a big boy and I can take it but I do not follow the logic of me asking a sraight question about a deleted post and being told to "shut the f**k" up" and then seeing a new post from the same mod saying how we have all got to stop being negative.

[dvnc]

Ham, fine response, sir. I laud your diplomacy.

Red, the culture shock here must be a monumental pain in the posterior, sir, and for that, you've my apologies. I do appreciate your recognition of my observation, and laud you your willingness to continue polite discourse. One day, I hope t'pull drafts with you and Ham, of Caffreys or Boddingtons from a proper keg, and discuss such where I can hear your emphasis, 'cause I *think* I know where it is, but text is so bad at carrying many colloquialisms. Note the volume of apostrophes I use.

As for the mail you received from one of the mods, I'm surprised, but appreciate your polite confusion, instead of the hostility with which some would take that. Your cool head about this is a relief to me. I don't understand why that happened, either, save that some tempers are apparently high at the moment. This too, shall pass. It's likely related to that thread I pulled, and the commentary in it. Do mail me if you've detailed questions, and I'll answer as best I know.

Hal, how d'you think we Americans feel, now that our President is waging war on terrorists. If the IRA are ever classified as such for our military's purposes, there'll be an uproar here like we've not seen since the 60s.

Strel, that's a sore one for the whole of the US, it seems. Too many loud-mouthed bad folk put a real negative on that flag. I used to see it as bad news, until a Southern transplant gave me many history lessons on that war from his family's side. I still dislike the negative part of that, but I can completely understand where it's a piece of Southern history. It's likely to be a sore spot for a long time, though, as you suspect. One day, our childrens' children may make right of the whole mess, 'round about the time that we're truly equalist in our treatment of EVERY adult citizen of this country. I'm waitin'...

dvnc

[Latin_Boy]

I also read in the paper that a Colorado Congressman is proposing a bill that will disallow Federal help (i.e., taxpayer money) to any public organization that bans the display of the American Flag -- such as libraries and schools. In Boulder, Colorado, a library supervisor refused to display the American flag (again, for fear that it may *offend* someone); yet, she put up a sexual display across the hall that celebrated women's liberations. Can you spell double-standard? What Shame!

[shark]

I've heard about that story,too.Without going into too much detail, this is just another example of the cancer of political correctness. I'll stop here,just to be certain that my honest opinion about it,and its adherents,won't violate policy.I'm certain it will.

[dvnc]

Not at all, shark. Your post was well worked. it ain't that folksa ren't allowed to contest and even debate. It's just that there needs to be that whole respect and civility thing.

Banning flag display, within the context of the previously posted appropriateness for flags, according to the government (which the flag represents), seems daft to me. It's a symbol of this nation. If you don't like the symbol, you've a problem, here, 'cause it's not going away, and every time someone bites at us, you're going to see a multitude of flags.

I wonder why they thought the flag being displayed was a problem?

dvnc

[shark]

I'll take my chances answering that one.Many of these political correctness adherents are also globalists and do not believe in any national sovereignty.They believe that all nations should welcome everyone on the globe as a citizen of every nation.To reach these goals,they try to both erase peoples' belief in sovereignty and also control thought by use of discrimination,harassment,and hate speech charges.The Clinton administration has already done so to protesters of their policies.
Many see PC as just being civil,but if you take a good hard look, you will find nothing more that thought control via criminal and civil suits.Hence,anything that can be considered offensive can become a civil or criminal case,unless it meets PC criteria.This,of course,is whatever the PC crowd agrees with.AS I had mentioned before in a post,these adherents of PC have seen fit to find work in places to use as bully pulpits:government,media,and academia.If you need proof,look at how our government bureaucracies,high schools,colleges, even grade schools,and most of our media operate.It's not hard to see if you look and be informed.

[shark]

Just to be as accurate as possible,we'll call it behavior control..at least until the mechanisms are in place for further "progress".

[dvnc]

Removing the display of the flag is to further the cause of some unnamed group of people, who are globalist? Wow. That seems a might extreme to me, sir, but my disagreement of the concept is only one man's perspective.

By your description, why would you stay here? Given that we, the moderators of this merry little forum, can "control" your thoughts, being that we can and do remove posts when they're deemed offensive by the moderators, especially when complaints come flyin' in to us, I'm surprised that I'm not being implied as a player of this united invisible front.

Your rhetoric reminds me of mom's friends in the 60s. By their notion, we're late to be totally mind controlled, 'cause the talk then was that "the man is oppressin' us" and we would be living 1984 in real life, soon enough. I do hope you, and they, are mistaken in the view that such a silent and largely invisible front is able to manipulate the world.

I do, however, respect your perspective, and am glad you posted it. Thanks for that.

dvnc

[shark]

I think you're confusing this forum with the daily involvements of people in the US,dvnc.What was the last time a moderator told a posting party that they could only post about a story if they told half of it...the PC half?
Example:A friend's boy was doing a report on Daniel Boone.After all the BS,he needed the principal's written permission to use a cardboard tomahawk and knife(zero tolerance),and was not only not allowed to use a cardboard gun,(PC believes in strict gun control),he was not even permitted to say that Daniel Boone hunted(PC is also anti-hunting).
I've never seen this type of control used on this forum.
Of course,there is the grade school boy who got in trouble for kissing a girl schoolmate:sexual harassment,you know.Another PC pet project.
Need more?...I got them.
Again,I've never seen this type of control used in this forum.
Hell,I hope I'm wrong about this,too.Unfortunately,incidents I've seen and read about aren't too encouraging.

[qjakal]

Hate when I miss interesting threads...damn RL!

First, I have NO idea what dvnc is talking about...we never disagree, unless he happens to be wrong. :p

Secondly, Holy Hornets Nest BatModerator!...the IRA and the turmoil in that green paradise are second only to the MidEast in complexity and length of history. Tread carefully, my fellow TMF'ers. Breaking away from Britain has had very good and very bad results throughout history.

PC and globalism aren't to be "lumped" together so casually in my opinion. Globalism is a worthy goal and has merit as a concept. PC can be a way of avoiding confrontation about issues that NEED to be discussed at times if we are ever to resolve them. Not all of PC is bunk, and again, the theory has value, but the execution of the principles they espouse can be lame at times. They vary from sublime to ridiculous far too quickly overall for my taste...

Strel, my ancient friend, the flag you discuss has so many meanings depending on whose view it is seen from...I know some of the charm of the South through extended travel, but I have also seen its ugly underbelly as well through the troubles my sister had when living among the citizens of Tennessee and your own fair Bama. She's no angel, but there's some issues down there that need some attention. You are in a fairly unique position, having lived some of your vast lifespan (guys...he's reallllly old) in both spots, so I think I'll defer to your judgement in this area (sound retreat men!).

Red Indian...haven't seen you in my usual threads....so this is where you've been stirring the pot? I miss your troublemaking thought provoking insights! Visit the Religion thread once more, eh?

Just poking my snoot in...as you were! Q

[red indian]

You must have the wrong guy Q!! as I write I can feel my splendid new beard sprouting on my chin and i have thrown all my bryan adams cd,s away. My bare back horse riding skills are coming on a treat and my desire for women dressed in blue mail bags grows by the day. Those old lee enfield rifles take a bit of getting used to as does the diet of raisins and green tea (to go) but you would be suprised how quickly you get used to walking round with an over cooked omelette balanced on your head. So take my advice Q and keep those posts positive and throw that razor away. Long live the "new rules" crusade!!

[dvnc]

Originally posted by shark
I think you're confusing this forum with the daily involvements of people in the US,dvnc.What was the last time a moderator told a posting party that they could only post about a story if they told half of it...the PC half?
You're mistaken in your thinking, sir. I'm doing nothing of the sort. I also chose to take no offense in a personally-pointed response from you. It speaks for itself.

We've not a political correctness restriction here. We've a civility restriction. We, you and I included, get to disagree, civilly. You can't expect to deride me, nor can I randomly remove your post, simply because it disagrees. We must "play nice". Note, though, that many posts don't agree around here. They just do as you and I do, discoursing without malice.

That ONE moderator once misstepped is a historical point already. Forgive, and move forward, is my perspective, there.


Originally posted by shark
Example:A friend's boy was doing a report on Daniel Boone.After all the BS,he needed the principal's written permission to use a cardboard tomahawk and knife(zero tolerance),and was not only not allowed to use a cardboard gun,(PC believes in strict gun control),he was not even permitted to say that Daniel Boone hunted(PC is also anti-hunting).
I've no experience correlating this, and no source to prove it as real. It does sound inane. This isn't countrywide, or prevalent, to me.


Originally posted by shark
I've never seen this type of control used on this forum.
Not surprising, fortunately. One must offend to force us to remove the post. Witness that you and I actually civilly disagree with one another. Q and I do such, as do Strel and I, and he and Q. Permanent passivity is a drag.


Originally posted by shark
Of course,there is the grade school boy who got in trouble for kissing a girl schoolmate:sexual harassment,you know.Another PC pet project.
By THAT logic, sir, this nation would not have persisted. We kept slaves for the first decades of it's infancy. That ALONE contests our "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and all that.

People do stupid things all the time. These dopes make the papers. No one else does like 'em after the papers circullate such for long enough.


Originally posted by shark
Need more?...I got them.
Again,I've never seen this type of control used in this forum.
Hell,I hope I'm wrong about this,too. Unfortunately,incidents I've seen and read about aren't too encouraging. [/B][/QUOTE]
And you believe everything you read and hear? ;) I tease, brother, but there's a grain of truth to that thought. Someone else's money, from this forum, is PAYING so we have the fun of this. It's a fight-free, hostility free, undominated forum, happily, where a body can come on and disagree with the perceived authority.

As for your proof, I still disagree. In a nation of as many millions as have we, the spot examples are proof only of corralling incidences at random. I don't see what you see, though I see lesser similarities on occasion. Idiocy abounds, though, and you and I are always going to see stupid people steppin' backwards on occasion. I don't view that as control from "the man". I view that as small-minds mis-stepping, and as long as informed minds slap 'em forward to the present, I've no worries.

When you've documented 1% of the nation doing such, clue me, brother. In so small a number as I've seen reported, it's just a proof that there's some dumb folks here, same as everywhere else in the world.

OTOH, thanks for debating, thus far. It's good to see more of us that can disagree without hostilities.

All of this, and Q spoutin' Globalism, while red indian spoofs louder 'n bombs. I love this place.

dvnc

[shark]

I do believe that the posting dvnc just quoted said exactly that there was no such PC type censorship on the TMF.
As for being personally pointed,it's fairly obvious that we two have been talking to each other directly for a while.What there was to take offense to I can't seem to locate.
As far as proving anything,I don't actually give a flying f**k who believes me and who doesn't.No skin off my back.I've already posted one website one can visit if he or she chooses to,and there are others.pPeople will believe as they wish,one way or another.
Seems that communication is a problem here...maybe it's better that I just stop attempting it.

[dvnc]

As for what could offend, shark, it could be contextually mistaken, and rather than get trivial about it, I'm gonna take ya at your word, and shrug the notion. No offense means no harm, and thus no foul, brother.

It'll be a sad thing if you stop attempting to communicate here, and I'll miss ya, by virtue of the fact that you're participating. Don't know what you're finding problematic, but I hope you resolve it for yourself in a way that works for you. Clearly, you'll do as you will, but I hope you consider stickin' around. At some point in the foreseeable future the topics here will be more about tickling and the interactions between 'lers and 'lees, and it'd be a shame if you missed it, 'cause clearly, you took the effort to join us.

Another $0.02 contributed,

dvnc

[qjakal]

Okay, now I'm gonna jump in the water with the shark a bit! They just okayed prayer for Ramadan in the schools...wtf is that? I disagree with restricting silent prayer of ANY type in school(you know you prayed like crazy before the SATs, we all did), but to allow selective groups to openly participate while others cannot during THEIR high holy days is ridiculous! Now I have a problem...and so I react and begin to take action. I write to appropriate school board officials and work my way up from there, and I begin to tell other people about this so hopefully we can get some word of mouth movement into action as well. This climate CAN be battled, but it takes effort, and that's what has been lacking and has allowed a decent concept to devolve into this nitpicking overanalysis of every word, gesture and action that constitute real life.... Q the incensed....grrr...hey, that would make a good icon>> :grrr

[dvnc]

What? That's stupid. If you allow one, it's unfair not to allow all. That, in and of itself, is just not smart. Either there is a separation of church and state, or there isn't.

There ARE alternatives for folks wanting religion mixed with their schooling, that AREN'T state-funded.

Q the incensed, huh? I want some Q incense. When I meet Dave2112, with his half-lidded eyes and the indescribable smokes, I wanna give him Q incense. ;)

Ever wiley,

dvnc

[red indian]

Great posts shark, lots for me to think about and i hope we do hear from you again because along with a number of others you stimulate debate which( as I have said before in this place)is what a forum needs. You are abrasive, provocative and entertaining. Long may it continue.

[shark]

Here are some sites that may be of interest in this discussion:
www.warroom.com
FOXNEWS.com.....oreilly factor...this show can also be seen at 8pm est on fox news
It would be easier to put the references here,as i type like molasses runs.These sites may be considered right wing by some,but there are others even more so.Besides,out left-leaning media is an overrated joke for a news outlet.
Just this week,the oreilly factor has been talking about a California school district where it was decided not to put flags in the classrooms because:
it might offend someone
it might create a disturbance
a teacher said it might cause a discussion she was not prepared for...maybe this one should find a job teaching kindergarten.

[ForgottenTcklr]

I don't want to sound harsh, but any American who has a problem with America just shouldn't be here. Why not just move to a country you like better?

[Strelnikov]

I'm sure the rationale was political correctness - bending over backward to be fair to those that many consider to be the enemy. But it's really not a bad idea. One of the Five Pillars of Faith is to pray five times daily. My Muslim co-workers at a former employer used their morning and afternoon smoke breaks and lunch hour to pray in a conference room (during Ramadan, Muslims refrain from eating, drinking and smoking during daylight hours.) Never caused a problem, nor will accomodating the students who want to do likewise.

Now we need to get the school authorities to accomodate Christian students who want to do the same. Some students around here do it guerilla style - meet at the flagpole at an appointed time - it would be nice to let them use a heated/air conditioned room instead. Hindus and Jews too - the more the merrier. Anyone who chooses to take offense, that's on them for making that choice.

Strelnikov

[qjakal]

It does seem illogical to "prevent" a peaceful activity from occuring, doesn't it? But there's a vocal minority that seems convinced that the downfall of society is only a prayer away. Q

[shark]

Just a short revisit to this thread.Locally a certain company flies a large American flag above its grounds.There is some controversy,as a certain group finds this flag offensive,and it is getting letters to the editor in the paper.The group.....Jehovahs witnesses,the same ones who act like it's their birthright to traipse onto your property and damn near have to be forced off.The paper link is
www.butlereagle.com.Hope it works.

[shark]

www.butlereagle.com Try that

[P.H. Tickler]

The united states has a flag, it is a symbol to many both here and abroad, and perhaps another country would have just cause to be offended by it, but HERE, if you don't like it LEAVE.
I could see what the original intention of "separation of church and state" was, and it would be unfair to impose a national religion on all of us... BUT, thanks to the liberal PC fairies, they want to (and are having success) rewrite the phrase to be, more broadly "separation of faith and state".
PC is a liberal disease that afflicts us all, If George Washington was the head of a PC government back then, our flag would still be the Union Jack (no offense meant to our friends in the UK:rolleyes: ).
I have a flag on the front porch, and it's been there since I bought the house (over 10 years now, i'm not a "9/11 patriot")... if anyone told me to take it down, they'd get a decidedly non PC response.
I don't agree with everything the USA goes along with... NAFTA almost ruined my life when 15 years seniority gets an "oh well, too bad" response from a company that then ships my whole factory to mexico, what RETARD thought NAFTA up?... BUT, that would never sway my admiration for "Old Glory" and all she stands for.
here's my response to the PC fairies...

1. NAFTA sucks, they should CLOSE the borders until ALL Americans have jobs, and THEN open up the gates. USA shouldn't just be the land of opportunity for foreigners!
2. Abortion IS murder and F**k you for using MY tax dollars to pay for it... They should just sterilize everybody and make them apply for a Parent's licence. (think of it, no more crack babies, and no more abortion industry)
3. ENGLISH is the language here... I'm Irish, should I petition the schools to include Gaelic in the curriculum??? I think not.
4. I don't own a gun, but it's not MY place to tell you that you can't.
5. If I can't punish my kids.. then DON'T fine ME if they don't go to class. (that was on the news... can you imagine?)
6. The ONLY bad thing about the death penalty is the long delay between conviction and execution... what kind of deterrent is a 40 year wait?
and finally...

7. I don't particularly care if 1 thru 6 offend anyone, it's my opinion and I'm proud to live in a country where I can state my opinion, AND I respect that others have their own opinions and are free to voice them... and therein lies the tragic flaw of PC... they try to inflict their opinions on you and they use the laws to do it, that's not right.

If you don't like the brave new PC world, kindly complain to the nearest ELECTED liberal, or better yet... VOTE next time.

[JoBelle]

Wow...ok so I wanna say something. Anyone surprised at that little fact? hehe

Point A - I agree about symbology. Before we had written words, we had symbols for events of the world. That being said, the flag stands for ALL of America. It's not just a symbol of that which is written in our laws. It is a symbol of our constitution, our tax law, Bill CLinton, George Bush, our school systems, our local McDonalds, the World Trade Center, NAFTA, our prosperity as perceived by the rest of the world, the hungry children in the poverty stricken areas of every state, Native American reservations, the ugly history of the South, the Florida Keys and the people who vacation there, Timothy McVeigh, Mark Twain, the Mississippi River, the Grand Canyon, American military in other countries, the US Olympic teams....and the list goes on and on. THAT is why some people find it offensive. Our flag, Old Glory, is a symbol of America, good and bad. Now, as to whether or not it should be restricted. Perhaps it should if it offends within the borders of ANOTHER country. I doubt we would argue that point. Within the border of the United States, it should fly. Why? It is the flag of the United States of America. That's why. That is my opinion.

Point B - I've little education about Irish history. I'm currently on the mend in that situation. It's interesting the things that form our bias in thought. As Red and others point out...they have years of expereince in dealing with unrest, so I defer to this thought about flag waving that stirs the emotions associtated with violence within a country.

Point C - (This relates some personal experience, be froewarned you may disagree. :) ) As most of you all know, I'm a Southerner. I was born and raised in Mississippi. I've seen the debate of flags and their offensive nature up close. I've lived all over this beautiful state and have seen the reasons for and against the removal of a flag. I've lived in areas where I, as a white female, have been the majority and at other times, the minority. I've seen racism (which is at the heart of the flag controversy in the South) rear its ugly head. I've been victim to it in being refused service at a gas station in a small town because the black man who was the proprietor didn't need "the money of some white bitch." This was on the day a pro-flag rally was held. I have seen rednecks brag about KKK meetings and cover their cars in "Confederate Battle Flags" along with hate filled bumper stickers. I have also seen the same flag be used to demean women of all races on more than one occasion. I've also seen the multitude of races (White, Black, Choctaw, Vietnamese, and Cajun to name a few which are prominant here) have the intelligence and heart to say, "It's a symbol of good and bad. How people choose to use it is their business." It's sad. There is more to the South than hatred. There is more than what was here 40 years ago. The flag being flown is a reminder of the past. But it can also be a reminder of change. As it flew over that as well. I see a different South than most. I live it daily. I see the good and the bad....and the bad getting better. I agree with Q and Strel, problems yes, but perhaps my son will see this portion of the country through his own eyes, rather than the remebering eyes of those who pre-judge because it isn't perfect yet. I seriously doubt that any area is free of predjudice, but perhaps our longing to hold onto (in the form of a flag) history that has such horrible evil and such lovely blessings somehow damns us as a region. OK, enough rambling on that one...just thought I'd toss in there a little snippet about how a flag can be see and used for purposes beyond it's creative intent.

Point D - For those of you who never thought of the lyrics beyond the ones we sing at football games, the following is the whole Star Spangled Banner. It mentions a "God" and I choose to insert my equal thought there as I'm sure "One's personal belief in the spiritual realms and the undecided thoughts of others" was just too many words and wouldn't rhyme. :) All kidding aside, it's lovely sentiment from a man who felt moved to write it based on his love and his values. I choose to respect that. I get a little lump in my throat when I read it..and I think about it. Just thought I'd share.


The Star Spangled Banner
Lyrics by Francis Scott Key

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, say, can you see,
by the dawn's early light,
what so proudly we hailed,
at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars,
thro' the perilous fight,
o'er the ramparts we watched,
were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets red glare,
the bombs bursting in air,
gave proof thro' the night,
that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
o'er the land of the free,
and the home of the brave?


On the shore dimly seen,
thro' the mists of the deep,
where thee foe's haughty host,
in dread silence reposes,
what is that which the breeze,
o'er the towering steep,
as it fitfully blows,
half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam,
of the morning's first beam,
in full glory reflected.,
now shines in the stream.
"Tis the star-spangled banner;
Oh, long may it wave,
o'er the land of the free,
and the home of the brave."


And where is that band,
who so vauntingly swore,
that the havoc of war,
and the battle's confusion,
a home and a country,
should leave us no more?
Their blood was washed out,
their foul footstep's pollution,
no refuge could save,
the hireling and slave,
from the terror of flight,
or the gloom of the grave,
and thee star-spangled banner,
in triumph doth wave,
o'er the land of the free,
and the home of the brave.


Oh, thus be it ever,
when free man shall stand,
between their loved homes,
and war's desolation,
blest with vict'ry and peace,
may the Heav'n rescued land,
praise the Pow'r that hath made,
and preserved us a nation!
Then conquer we must,
when our cause it is just;
and this be our motto;
"in God is our trust!"
And the star-spangled banner,
in triumph shall wave,
o'er the land of the free,
and the home of the brave.

And wow, if you are still reading, I'm impressed. :wow: thanks for taking the time.

Jo...who digs Old Glory.....and apologizes for the typos. Hope uyou could decode em. ;)

[Prime]

Dont be too impressed....i read the first 3 sentences then skipped to the last 2. but i'm reletively sure it was a great post...and long..whew...:p

[JoBelle]

I'm starting to think that Mr Prime just likes to tease me abit. ;)Doesn't he know that is a dangerous thing?

JoBelle

[Prime]

i'm kind of fearless like that. :)

but seriously..nice post. (i broke down and read the whole thing)

[shark]

Just saw the O'Reilly factor tonight.It seems that the IOC objected to the flying of the WTC flag..the one damaged on 9/11.I guess they got too much flack and backed off,but just who in the hell do they think they are telling us if we can fly that particular flag or not?
They claimed that they wanted the olympics to be nonpolitical,but a look at olympic history can show that for years they weren't close.
Again...it's our flag,if you have a problem with it...LEAVE.

[TickledToDeath]

Envy, jealously.

Although some see it represent...Greed.
While they may have a point there....their sight is mis guided as the Stars and stripes are not symbolic of what actually goes ON but how we got to where we are....Free and UNITED.

Greed is a seperate disease within.

TTD

[TicklishPhoebe]

Originally posted by ForgottenTcklr
I don't want to sound harsh, but any American who has a problem with America just shouldn't be here. Why not just move to a country you like better?

Please don't confuse intelligent criticism with dislike. It is possible to love one's country without loving everything the country does.

Some people may have problems with America, but I imagine the reason is that they want those problems to be resolved so that the country they love will be even greater.

[Strelnikov]

There's a difference between dissent and carping. The latter is what we're mostly seeing now from our critics.

The anti-war left, and elite opinion in Europe, tried to blame America for 9/11 with the "root cause" argument. They lost. They gleefully predicted that our Afghan war would turn into a quagmire. They were wrong there too. They said that Islamic opinion would be inflamed against us. Instead, we're seeing respect (and more than a little fear) of our strength.

What's left? Rights-speak. We're bad guys because some of our bombs missed and killed civilians, and because we're allegedly mistreating a gang of cut-throats in Cuba. Never mind that some of our supposed victims imprisoned or killed far more of their own people than we ever did: men whose beards were too short, or women whose ankles showed under the hem of the mail sacks they had to wear. Never mind that others were party to the murder of 3,000 of our fellow citizens. But barbarians get a free pass from the lefties.

Strelnikov

[qjakal]

Good evening Strel! Yup...the war that was going to drag on forever was instead a demonstration of what superior air strength can do to ANY opposition, even a mountainous one. If you can't establish supply lines or move troops, there really isn't a lot to do except wait for us or run..... Q

[MN Tikl]

As one of the self-proclaimed "lefties," I find the jingoistic and politically-tinged remarks of Strel and P.H. Tickler and others incredibly offensive, if not outright idiotic.

* I am "anti-war" -- but I am 100% behind our country in our current war. I realize that war is an absolutely necessary response to the current situation, but I don't *prefer* that the war go on forever. Do you?

* I don't "blame America" for what happened, but I *do* seek to understand the reasons why the terrorists struck America. Do you see no merit whatsoever in trying to understand your enemy? Do you prefer an endless cycle of 'eye-for-an-eye' bloodshed to an ultimately peaceful resolution? If so, move to Israel, because that's what's happening there.

* The "we/they" mentality espoused in your posts -- suggesting taht only the right are true American citizens and that the left ought to 'love it or leave it' -- is, in a word, sickening. We are *all* Americans. Republicans, Democrats, Independants, and others. In fact, you should realize that there are many more "lefties" than "righties," and that we're not all treasonous, brain-washed, drug-taking, abortion-demanding, welfare-receiving, draft-dodging, flag-burning, commie-sympathizing degenerates. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the 'left' includes many thoughtful, patriotic human beings that work for a living, pay taxes, and just happen to see the world differently than you do.

* Yes -- I'm a "leftie". But I DON'T give a pass to barbarians; and I resent the suggestion that, because I'm not a member of the GOP or a card-carrying NRA member, that I do. Do *you* give a pass to ANYBODY that deigns to hold beliefs that differ from yours in the arenas of politics or religion? It doesn't seem like it. Don't lump the left in with the terrorists, when, in fact, your absolutist, tolerate-no-dissent attitude makes your beliefs a lot closer to fascism than those of the left. That you believe in your heart of hearts that you -- and you alone -- hold the truth does not make it so.

Sorry, but I had to insert some shades of gray into your black/white worldview. I'm going to go build a bunker now, and wait for the inevitable conservative back-lash.

[Haltickling]

Exactly my sentiments, MN!

[qjakal]

Well, I'm somewhere between (Strel& Shark) and (MN & Hal) in political/ideological "leanings", so I'm going to jump in here and throw myself open to smackdown from BOTH poles...lol. I tend to be independent of party affiliation depending on the issue, and although you may find Strel sounding militaristic and ultraconservative at times, he doesn't "preach" what you seem to be implying about differing viewpoints, but rather defends his own positions vigorously as is his right, without resorting to "love it or leave it" dramatic statements of that sort. He is CRANKY and at times intolerant, but I have a feeling you could trust him to water your plants and feed your dog. :)

MN, you obviously are a well meaning citizen who has concerns about the role of the USA in the world, as does nearly every thoughful person during this war/crisis. The controversy about the flag and its meaning to various groups is an ongoing discussion that encompasses most recognizable symbols at some point in history. You bring up some good points about the stereotypes that are foisted upon "lefties", but don't acknowledge the seeds of truth within many of the problems you used to denigrate the "righty" position. Nonetheless, you have passion and as much right to display it as anyone else in the country!

It's a noisy smoky time in our country at the moment..emotions are running high and hard, but overall I think we're going to come through this era in good shape, and perhaps with a bit better perspective of what the rest of the world is upset about, although it may not be anything we wish to acknowledge or change within our society.

Guess this doesn't really resolve anything....lol..but I hate seeing these things escalate into solidfied positions that leave no room for discussion and chatting!
:wow: Q

[shark]

One might consider that those who do not give passes to barbarians, are not abortion-demanding,are not draft-dodging,are not flag-burning,
and are not communist sympathizers are not as far left as they think.
As far as numbers,left and right would need standard definitions to accomplish this type of census.With a politically diverse society,that would be pretty close to impossible except for the extremes that have been discussed in these posts.

[P.H. Tickler]

Originally posted by MN Tikl
As one of the self-proclaimed "lefties," I find the jingoistic and politically-tinged remarks of Strel and P.H. Tickler and others incredibly offensive, if not outright idiotic.


Offended? over words on a forum? as if!
had you paid attention, you would have read the following...
7. I don't particularly care if 1 thru 6 offend anyone, it's my opinion and I'm proud to live in a country where I can state my opinion, AND I respect that others have their own opinions and are free to voice them... and therein lies the tragic flaw of PC... they try to inflict their opinions on you and they use the laws to do it, that's not right.

I'm glad you get to express your opinion as freely... the big difference here is that I am NOT offended by your views... offense to opinions is a liberal thing:D

cheers

[MN Tikl]

"offense to opinions is a liberal thing"

Once again, give me a break.

If my opinion didn't offend you, then you wouldn't have wasted your time posting a response to it.

Don't try to take the high road re: taking offense. It undermines whatever credibility you have left.

Cheers

[P.H. Tickler]

Originally posted by MN Tikl
"offense to opinions is a liberal thing"

Once again, give me a break.

If my opinion didn't offend you, then you wouldn't have wasted your time posting a response to it.

Don't try to take the high road re: taking offense. It undermines whatever credibility you have left.

Cheers

maybe I have misread something, but weren't you the one offended? I responded because you chose to use my screen name in your post.;)

*P.H. Tickler gives MN Tikl a break*

BTW, what kind of credibility do you think I'm going for with a name like P.H. Tickler?:)

[Haltickling]

IMO, offence to opinions is not a prerogative of liberals or conservatives. It's simply a sign for intolerance, inherent to all fanatics of whatever political (or religious) color. Both ultra-conservatives AND far-left liberals are excellent examples for that. And most of them will state eagerly that they'll fight for the freedom of opinions...

But I think those people who REALLY defend freedom are found somewhere between both extremes. Many are extremely tolerant, and they don't need to accuse each other of extreme positions. Just my personal view.

[JoBelle]

I had a prof who once told me his theories of the right and left....I found them enlightening and humorous, and I won't go into them all here. **you're welcome**:p

BUT, one thought has stuck with me for years...Conservatives? Liberals? This isn't a linear way of thinking. It's circular. When you get too far left, you start to merge to the thinking of the right and vice versa. Food for thought, no?

Jo, who treats it like a giant trampoline and I jump all over the damn place :)

[shark]

In reply to Jobelle,to me it's definitely linear.I don't subscribe to overcomplicated trains of thought as many college professors do. There are plenty of things in the world that do not require massive studies and philosophical oversight.To me this professor had more success confusing the issue than anything.
I have an acquaintance who took some math course which taught that
1+1 did not necessarily equal 2.Try that with your checkbook,work figures,or making change and you'll understand what I mean.Taking your lead,though,I won't get any deeper into examples of everyday thought being overcomplicated,overstudied,or made to fit certain trains of thought.

[JoBelle]

LOL...I think most profs I knew were like that. This one however, I must say, he was a brilliant man. Likely my favorite over the years. He was a historian *Which may explain his thoughts from the previous post.* ;)

He also said something once that I found true...He didn't teach history the wasy it WAS. He taught history the way he THOUGHT it was.*LOTS of texts...from multiple cultures for this class* ha!History, the story of the human race, is nothing if not subjective. You can't label it with one definition suitable to all. No matter which side of the coin you think you're on, in the eyes of someone more or less conservative, you're on the edge. IMO, This relates to the whole flag issue as well as the tangent being discussed right now.

Jo

[Strelnikov]

Do a smackdown on Q? Opinionated? Intolerant? Moi? Come on, Q, you can't light a fire without striking sparks. Stirring a bowl of mush just doesen't get it.

As usual, MN didn't devote much attention to reading my post before he replied. I said "the ANTI-WAR left, and ELITE OPINION in Europe." This country has a tradition of liberal warriors: Harry Truman, to name just one. Hal can probably find better examples among Europeans than I can, but Tony Blair certainly qualifies.

That said, there's an unfortunate tendency among many on the left and in Europe to regard all uses of American military power as imperialistic. That view includes the present war, and it couldn't be more wrong. This war isn't optional. It's been going on since the Arab-Israeli War in 1973 - we just haven't been paying attention. 9/11 is the direct result of that inattention. Like all primitive warrior cultures, the enemy misinterpreted compassion and restraint as weakness and irresolution.

Despite what the politicians have been saying, this is in fact a war of cultures. The West stands for constitutional government, rule of law, and respect for the political, religious and economic rights of individuals. It prefers to expand itself by example and persuasion. Radical Islamism is exemplified by the Taliban and Al-Quaeda, and intends to expand at gunpoint. Like it or not, everyone has to decide whose side they're on.

Middle of the road? Look there, and usually what you see is a yellow stripe and road kill.

By all means, understand your enemy and his sympathizers. You may be able to turn a few of them around, and it's a prerequisite to defeating the rest. But as Niccolo Machiavelli said, in statecraft it's good to be loved, but more useful to be feared.

Strelnikov

[dvnc]

Strel's right in pointin' out that lateralist extremes aren't helpin' EITHER side.

Yeah, I agreed wit' Strel. It happens sometimes.

Takin' sides WITHIN this country is only helpin' those lookin' t'blow it up. Roadkill's an apt metaphor.

Maybe AFTER we have no one tryin' t'blow us up, we can go back to the laterist rhetoric, and I can enjoy arguin' wit' Strel and Q again, as it should be. ;)