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Why is the American flag offensive to some?

Latin_Boy

TMF Regular
Joined
Jun 22, 2001
Messages
193
Points
0
Someone with an actual argument PLEASE answer that question. I am flabbergasted by all the stories about patriotic workers being asked to remove American flags for fear that someone may find these *offensive*. Please! You are in American soil! The flag does not represent an oppressive government; it is a symbol of the battles our ancestors have won and the blood they've shed to ensure our freedoms. I have plenty to talk about on this issue, but I want to see how some of you out there feel. Why on earth would someone deem the flag as offensive?! I'd like some feedback on this.

Latin_Boy
 
You used the key word in your post.

Symbol.

Symbols take on different and highly specific meanings to each viewer.

You see the flag as a symbol of all the good things you mentioned. Most do.

Some however have had reasons to attach other meanings to the symbol. The reasons why are as varied as the people who hold them. Each will hold a different answer for you.

Myriads
 
Latin_Boy said:
You are in American soil! The flag does not represent an oppressive government; it is a symbol of the battles our ancestors have won and the blood they've shed to ensure our freedoms.

Myriads actually responded quite well to this. I just want to reiterate that while the vast majority of us respond to the flag as a symbol of freedom (to some of us, it can actually cause a lump in the throat and a tear in the eye)sometimes, to some, it can be something else. And while I cannot personally understand the something else, it is not my place to belittle the feelings or beliefs of those who don't see that beautiful swatch of red, white & blue fabric the same way as I do. Our country is SO much MORE than just a flag anyway. If we can get so riled up about a piece of fabric, it seems there may be other insecurities or issues that need to be addressed,IMHO

Oh, and I am not IN American soil...not yet. ;) Of course, I MIGHT be...and SOON, if someone misinterprets this post! LOL

USA - There's nowhere else I'D rather be!

Kim
 
hmm..

This is still no reason to accommodate to everyone's stupid request to remove every symbol that somehow may be construed as offensive. I think this whole P.C. society is getting WAY out of hand. I don't think I'm being narrow-minded here, nor am I undermining anyone’s feelings; I just don’t see the negative symbolic aspect in a flag -- especially if you are already in the country -- unless it is “obviously” inappropriate. If I display the American flag in a Japanese cemetery, that's offensive; if I do it in American soil, though, under most circumstances (like the ones I’ve heard about), I can't see how anyone could find this offensive. Why doesn't the White House, for example -- with hundreds of flags inside -- remove them when world leaders come meet with our president? It's ridiculous.

A sign with the words "God Bless America" posted shortly after 9-11 was banned in a California school because one parent -- one out of thousands -- was angry that the school was "mixing church and state", forcing his kid to believe in this God. Let me ask this: Which *God* is this sign advocating? I know someone is going to ask, "Well, what if the child and his father are Atheists?" But then, I'm offended by people wearing black clothes. In my religion, wearing black signifies negative and defamatory feelings for those around you. Does this mean I should sue the school if my teachers ever wear black? This kind of ridiculous non-sense is what drives me insane.
This same God also appears in all United States currency -- "In God We Trust", it says. But I don't see the ACLU or the like boycotting their dollars..

Latin_Boy
 
Re: hmm..

Latin_Boy said:
This is still no reason to accommodate to everyone's stupid request to remove every symbol that somehow may be construed as offensive. Latin_Boy

Well, this is a MUCH bigger issue than just the flag, and I happen to agree with you. Empathy and sensitivity are fine qualities, but if a person is going to spend his/her life worrying that every little thing is going to offend every single person, well, that's kinda a waste of energy, IMHO.

But it truly goes deeper than that. Symbols are merely physical representations of an idea or ideal. Arguing against displaying a particular symbol is a manifestation of a disagreement with an idea, and that is all that it is. As with any disagreement, it is easier to bar the physical representation of the disagreement (i.e., the symbol) than it is to discuss and resolve that which caused the disagreement in the first place.

Personally, I find it sad that so much energy is expended on the symbols themselves and not on studying/discussing/advancing the ideas/ideals that created them in the first place.

Peace!

Kim
 
This PC crowd has been getting away with it for far too long.If I could,I would consider them traitors(as I already do)and have them deported.Any person can have any opinion they want,but this bunch thinks they are superior to all others and must be bowed to.If they are offended,tough...their existence offends me and many others.And I only bow in prayer to God,not these self-appointed dictators.
 
People who dont like the american flag are terrorists and i find them offensive. There has always been an american flag hanging at where i work, and people are just now finding it offensive. Thats some strange
messed up crap there.
 
The United States Code Title 36, Chapter 10 - Patriotic Customs:

What? I'm a traitor 'cause I'm not Christian, and don't wish to hear Christian rhetoric.

*stepping back to await fireworks*

Didja respond? Perhaps, then, some consideration is needed.

Keep in mind, brethren, that America is an amalgamation of many cultures and religions. Do have respect for those that don't have anyone named "God" in their worship. I, too, wish to give respect to those deserving such, and giving blessings is a fine notion, but declaring them in the name of another deity, outside of my faith, rubs me wrong. That, gents, is a point of inconsideration from ya. I WANT you to have the right to follow your faith. I also want the right to follow mine. It's that whole SHARING thing we all were supposed to learn in kindergarten.

"Bless America" is as viable, and doesn't stab at anyone. There's not a faith that doesn't bless, and there's a secular definition for "bless" that allows such without issue. Rather than considering our countryfolk, it's better to argue the right of expression of faith? Not appropriate now. Argue it AFTER we've no one screwin' with us.

While I ain't one to sweat the over-zealous nature of folks sprouting flags in inappropriate manner, there IS a right way declared for such, too. What? You didn't memorize this in high school? Neither did I. There IS a declared correct way, and alas, we're stompin' it into the ground. Trivia? Depends. How faithful are YOU to this country's main icon? We're Americans, and now's the time to know such.

Rather than debate the Christianity versus the rest of the faiths on the planet, or fight amongst ourselves like children, let's drop all that and peep at the US declared code for such flag display:

The United States Code Title 36, Chapter 10 -
Patriotic Customs:

ß174. Time and occasions for display
(a) Display on buildings and stationary flagstaffs in open; night display
It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.

(b) Manner of hoisting
The flag should be hoisted briskly and lowered ceremoniously.

(c) Inclement weather
The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is inclement, except when an all weather flag is displayed.

(d) Particular days of display
The flag should be displayed on all days, especially on New Year's Day, January 1; Inauguration Day, January 20; Lincoln's Birthday, February 12; Washington's Birthday, third Monday in February; Easter Sunday (variable); Mother's Day, second Sunday in May; Armed Forces Day, third Saturday in May; Memorial Day (half-staff until noon), the last Monday in May; Flag Day, June 14; Independence Day, July 4; Labor Day, first Monday in September; Constitution Day, September 17; Columbus Day, second Monday in October; Navy Day, October 27; Veterans Day, November 11; Thanksgiving Day, fourth Thursday in November; Christmas Day, December 25; and such other days as may be proclaimed by the President of the United States; the birthdays of States (date of admission); and on State holidays.

(e) Display on or near administration building of
public institutions
The flag should be displayed daily on or near the main administration building of every public institution.

(f) Display in or near polling places
The flag should be displayed in or near every polling place on election days.

(g) Display in or near schoolhouses
The flag should be displayed during school days in or near every schoolhouse.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ß175. Position and manner of display
The flag, when carried in a procession with another flag or flags, should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag's own right, or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that line.
(a) The flag should not be displayed on a float in a parade except from a staff, or as provided in subsection (i) of this section.
(b) The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender.
(c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof: Provided, That nothing in this section shall make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of superior prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions of equal prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United States at the headquarters of the United Nations.
(d) The flag of the United States of America, when it is displayed with another flag against a wall from crossed staffs, should be on the right, the flag's own right, and its staff should be in front of the staff of the other flag.
(e) The flag of the United States of America should be at the center and at the highest point of the group when a number of flags of States or localities or pennants of societies are grouped and displayed from staffs.
(f) When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's right.
(g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.
(h) When the flag of the United States is displayed from a staff projecting horizontally or at an angle from the window sill, balcony, or front of a building, the union of the flag should be placed at the peak of the staff unless the flag is at half staff. When the flag is suspended over a sidewalk from a rope extending from a house to a pole at the edge of the sidewalk, the flag should be hoisted out, union first, from the building.
(i) When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street.
(j) When the flag is displayed over the middle of the street, it should be suspended vertically with the union to the north in an east and west street or to the east in a north and south street.
(k) When used on a speaker's platform, the flag, if displayed flat, should be displayed above and behind the speaker. When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience.
(l) The flag should form a distinctive feature of the ceremony of unveiling a statue or monument, but it should never be used as the covering for the statue or monument.
(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff thirty days from the death of the President or a former President; ten days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. As used in this subsection -
(1) the term 'half-staff' means the position of the flag when it is one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff;
(2) the term 'executive or military department' means any agency listed under sections 101 and 102 of title 5; and
(3) the term 'Member of Congress' means a Senator, a Representative, a Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico.
(n) When the flag is used to cover a casket, it should be so placed that the union is at the head and over the left shoulder. The flag should not be lowered into the grave or allowed to touch the ground.
(o) When the flag is suspended across a corridor or lobby in a building with only one main entrance, it should be suspended vertically with the union of the flag to the observer's left upon entering. If the building has more than one main entrance, the flag should be suspended vertically near the center of the corridor or lobby with the union to the north, when entrances are to the east and west or to the east when entrances are to the north and south. If there are entrances in more than two directions, the union should be to the east.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ß176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ß177. Conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag
During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present except those in uniform should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should render the military salute. When not in uniform, men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Aliens should stand at attention. The salute to the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.


This lesson of US customs is brought to you by your friendly neighborhood mod,

dvnc
 
Anorak?

Are you one of those people who avoids walking on the cracks in paving stones on the way home dvnc?
 
I just rechecked my post.I still can't see any reference to Christianity or any other religion.My reference was strictly to the politically correct crowd,who have no problem coercing people to believe in secular humanism.
 
ROFL, red! Nah, brother. I don't worry about such things. I personally don't sweat much of anything, these days. Just figured that, if we were gonna DISCUSS this, then we ought to pick ONE avenue of discussion, and go there.

Since the religion aspect is somethin' we've been on in other threads for MONTHS, I'm for leavin' that there, and encourage folks wantin' t'dive in to read the back posts, so as to appear informed and intelligent in their commentary.

shark said:
This PC crowd has been getting away with it for far too long.If I could,I would consider them traitors(as I already do)and have them deported.Any person can have any opinion they want,but this bunch thinks they are superior to all others and must be bowed to.If they are offended,tough...their existence offends me and many others. And I only bow in prayer to God,not these self-appointed dictators.

Indeed, shark, everyone DOES have their opinion. Mine disagrees with yours. That's part of the American way, brother. That my existence offends you is hurtful, and thus, sad. Hurts my feelings, man.

Note this, now:
shark said:
I just rechecked my post.I still can't see any reference to Christianity or any other religion.My reference was strictly to the politically correct crowd,who have no problem coercing people to believe in secular humanism.
Note the two quotes, shark. Were you not praying to the Christian God, above, in the first thread quoted, when you discuss where you bow in prayer? I italicized it for ya.

I illustrate this to point out, to you and to all, that we all, as humans, can forget that we keep our faith close to us. You forgot you made reference to God in your previous post. I pointed it out, you mistook yourself, and rather than fight you, I seek merely to illustrate that it's present, and that such presence SHOULD be noticed, and that your God, and mine, and theirs, will be different in some cases. That's part of why I say, with great regularity, that it's all about the love, brother. I respect your right to worship as you see fit, and will fight other countries for your right, and mine. I just wish it to be a VISIBLE right. I want you to know it's there.

I don't think you need to respect my higher power, and I don't think I need to respect yours. I *DO* need to respect YOU, brother, as a fellow American. Dig? Ain't about anything other than respect of those around us, especially our countryfolk.

Now, folks, that FLAG thing HAS a source for the correct usage. Debate solved. I've posted such, and now we can argue about whether or not the founding fathers have such delineated appropriately. I think they have. Anyone disagree? Are you using your flag properly?

Last thought, on the flag topic - if you're using it wrongly, according to National Law, does it mean you're a bad person? Nope, especially not in the means intended. Given the knowledge passed on, now, do right by those lost to us, and fighting for us, and use the SYMBOL as it's meant, as respect to them, and to us as a nation.

THAT'S what I'm sayin'.

Peace,

dvnc
 
The post was meant to convey that I will not accept the secular humanists as a substitute for my worship,no matter if many of them want it that way.I was not referring to you,as it is obvious that you do not see things in the same light as they.
 
Why Is The American Flag Offensive To Some?

Well, Im Not Gonna Waste My Time Typing For An Hour Just To Look Smart, So My Answer Is That Some People Are Just Ignorant.
 
Jeez, DVNC, I figured you must have thrown away your Scout's Handbook years ago, but now you've resurrected the Flag Merit Badge section. I'm impressed.

I see nothing wrong with public religious expression in public venues. We believers are part of the public too. Where is it written that ours is the only culture and tradition that can be disrespected? If you choose to take offense, that's on you, not us.

Short answer to the question about the flag is that there are some who hate this country and what it stands for. By no means all of those people are foreigners. A lot of them are my fellow Boomers, now tenured university faculty, working in the establishment media, and other members of the chattering classes. These are the folks that love free speech, but only so long as it agrees with them. They dreamed up the PC speech codes, that give anyone whose feelings are easily hurt a veto over the speech of others. They've gotten away with it because the civil and/or academic authorities are conflict-averse (i. e., craven cowards) and unwilling to defend true free speech.

There's a bright side, though. Since 9/11, Americans are less likely to tolerate these pissants and more likely to shout them down or demand their removal. The same craven cowards are now bending with the prevailing wind, and enforcing the pissants' own speech codes against them! Halleluia, come the day! The Germans have a talent for inventing expressive and useful compound words, one of which describes my feelings. Ask Hal to define "Schadenfreude" for you.

Strelnikov
 
Strel, your praise compliments me well. Thank you, sir!

Krokus, I didn't HAVE to type all that. That's a US Code, son. It's available online, and I'd had it mailed to me by a fine friend o' mine. BTW, while talkin' 'bout wasted time and such, what's wit' all the capitalized words? ;) Seriously, though, use o' the flag is a sign of respect, and misuse, a disrespect. Now, when you display a flag, you don't do so in ignorance of it's officially-sanctioned usage. I *am* flattered t'think you thought I looked smart wit' that post. It didn't tire me to paste the US Code section in.

Shark, thanks for the clarification.

Evilqueen, that decision-making process is common for retail-commercialism. Sadly, it'll take more than ten of us to write our Congressman to protest ANYTHING and get it noticed. Worse, in revenge, you get regular mailings from them thereafter.

another $0.02,

dvnc
 
your welcome dvnc.Next time I'll be extremely specific in a post.
 
It is my opinion that any public meeting or public place should have the right to display the flag and say the pledge without threaten of suit or losing their job. I'm sorry if it offends someone. If you live in the United States you can say the pledge and look at the flag. If it offends you I would personally like to beat your ass then ship you off to some 3rd world country and see how you like it.
 
ROFL! Thanks for your opinion, kyle, but it conflicts with The United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10 - Patriotic Customs Code, where flag us is concerned. Wanna question that? Talk to the marines, bub, or any other branch of our military. Those folks take that seriously, and fight and die for such. Those that refuse, live in Leavenworth for many years at a time.

There's RULES for use of the American flag. If you're American, you should respect those rules. It's be sad to think that immigrants deal with this more loyally than those of us that are native-born.

The pledge wasn't questioned here, but since you mention it, I agree that you should be able to pledge to your heart's content. Free speech, and all o' that.

As for beatin' some dullard who's too damned dumb to respect his country, why beat 'em? Why not just export 'em to somewhere they can respect? Does it HAVE to come to blows? :confused:

dvnc
 
Yes, I would export them too, but first I would beat them.
 
flags

i am from ireland and flags here certainly have a potency and can conjure up all sorts of feelings. the tri colour of green, white and orange is the national flag of the 26 counties of the republic of ireland. in the republic it is a very proud symbol and is often brandished by irish people when abroad on sporting trips or going to rock festivals. in the north of ireland which is still under british rule, the majority of unionist protestants see the tri-colour as a flag representative of militant republicanism and nationlism and associate the flag with the likes of the i.r.a and other republican paramilitary organisations that have fought the british presence in northern ireland for many years. protestant unionists on the whole do not recognise the legitimacy of people who consider themselves irish to brandish the tri-colour and try and oppress it at every turn. in london on st patricks day a number of years ago, a tri-colour was displayed in the british government buildings in celebration of the day, a unionist politician was so incensed in seeing this flag on display that he took the flag down and threw it into the river thames. the union jack flag representing britishness in northern ireland is also prominently displayed on lamp posts in protestant areas to leave no doubt as to allegiance and also to promote sectarian hatred. just thought i would share this perspective on national flags with you all.
 
Thanks, Ham. Didn't know the details on that, and they were interesting, if a good bit sad. Does make you wonder what good England thinks it has in "holding" Ireland. I never understand that, but I'm over here, and details aren't as clear on the whole deal. I'm still amazed that Scotland stays so quietly participative.

Hope things get kinder there soon for ya.

dvnc
 
This is Simple

Anyone who finds a countries flag offensive should leave that country.
NUFF SAID!!!
 
Red rag to a Bulldog

Blimey Ham! are you after a flame war? bringing the irish question in to this peacfull backwater of the nett? what ARE you thinking of?!! any way at risk of you coming after me with "black and decker" here is my view. You say that the Irish Tricolour is "seen" as being associated with the I.R.A. by unionists, well what other flag are they associated with? I think even gerry adams would admitt to being associated with the Irish Tricolour and he is a member of the I.R.A. army council.You single out the loyalists for displaying their flag on lamp posts and thereby promoting sectarian hatred, well the republicans do exactly the same on their streets with flags and are you seriously telling me that the I.R.A have never been involved in sectarian killings? again even "saint gerry of adams" would come clean on that one.

DVNC.Just to give you a different perspective on Hams remarks. In the states you have been fighting a terrorist war since the 11 of sept, over here in England we have been fighting a terrorist war for over 30 years against the I.R.A. so to give you an analogy on Hams remarks about the Irish flag being thrown in the Thames what do you think would happen in New York if some guy started waving the Osama Binladen flag?.....well thats how most of England feels about the I.R.A. and that is why we are supporting you now because we know what terrorist attrocities are like.


On your point about England pointlessly "holding on" to Northern Ireland like many americans you may not be aware that the majority of people in N.I. are British and have been there for hundreds of years.


As regards Scotland we had a referendum a while back and the Scots voted to have their own parliament which is now up and running. Meanwhile in the English parliament we have a great many scots mp,s and we also now have a large element of our present government made up of scots including cabinet ministers, so have they all given up their jobs in the English parliament and rallied to the Scots flag?.......errrr......no. NUFF SAID!!!
 
p.s.

my own view on the Irish question is that we should have a word with the U.S. Navy and see if they have a couple of aircraft carriers spare, and get them to tow the goddam place out in to the middle of the atlantic and leave it there.
 
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