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New2u
09-04-2005, 07:46 PM
An interesting article in "Fact Check.Org" of whether George W. Bush was at fault or at least partly at fault with the flooding at New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina or was this hurricane simply too powerful for any levee improvement project to withstand? You be the judge.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=344

Is Bush to Blame for New Orleans Flooding?

He did slash funding for levee projects. But the Army Corps of Engineers says Katrina was just too strong.

September 2, 2005

Some critics are suggesting President Bush was as least partly responsible for the flooding in New Orleans. In a widely quoted opinion piece, former Clinton aide Sidney Blumenthal says that "the damage wrought by the hurricane may not entirely be the result of an act of nature," and cites years of reduced funding for federal flood-control projects around New Orleans.

Our fact-checking confirms that Bush indeed cut funding for projects specifically designed to strengthen levees. Indeed, local officials had been complaining about that for years.

It is not so clear whether the money Bush cut from levee projects would have made any difference, however, and we're not in a position to judge that. The Army Corps of Engineers – which is under the President's command and has its own reputation to defend – insists that Katrina was just too strong, and that even if the levee project had been completed it was only designed to withstand a category 3 hurricane.

We suspect this subject will get much more attention in Congress and elsewhere in the coming months. Without blaming or absolving Bush, here are the key facts we've been able to establish so far:

Bush Cut Funding

Blumenthal's much-quoted article in salon.com carried the headline: "No one can say they didn't see it coming." And it said the Bush administration cut flood-control funding "to pay for the Iraq war."

He continues:

Blumenthal: With its main levee broken, the evacuated city of New Orleans has become part of the Gulf of Mexico . But the damage wrought by the hurricane may not entirely be the result of an act of nature.

…By 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year…forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze.

We can confirm that funding was cut. The project most closely associated with preventing flooding in New Orleans was the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Hurricane Protection Project, which was “designed to protect residents between Lake Pontchartrain and the Missisippi River levee from surges in Lake Pontchartrain,” according to a fact sheet from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. (The fact sheet is dated May 23, long before Katrina). The multi-decade project involved building new levees, enlarging existing levees, and updating other protections like floodwalls. It was scheduled to be completed in 2015.

Over at least the past several budget cycles, the Corps has received substantially less money than it requested for the Lake Pontchartrain project, even though Congress restored much of the money the President cut from the amount the Corps requested.

In fiscal year 2004, the Corps requested $11 million for the project. The President’s budget allocated $3 million, and Congress furnished $5.5 million. Similarly, in fiscal 2005 the Corps requested $22.5 million, which the President cut to $3.9 million in his budget. Congress increased that to $5.5 million. “This was insufficient to fund new construction contracts,” according to a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ project fact sheet. The Corps reported that “seven new contracts are being delayed due to lack funds” [sic].

The President proposed $3 million for the project in the budget for fiscal 2006, which begins Oct. 1. “This will be insufficient to fund new construction projects,” the fact sheet stated. It says the Corps “could spend $20 million if funds were provided.” The Corps of Engineers goes on to say:

Army Corps of Engineers, May 23: In Orleans Parish, two major pump stations are threatened by hurricane storm surges. Major contracts need to be awarded to provide fronting protection for them. Also, several levees have settled and need to be raised to provide the design protection. The current funding shortfalls in fiscal year 2005 and fiscal year 2006 will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs.

The Corps has seen cutbacks beyond those affecting just the Lake Pontchartrain project. The Corps oversees SELA, or the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control project, which Congress authorized after six people died from flooding in May 1995. The Times-Picayune newspaper of New Orleans reported that, overall, the Corps had spent $430 million on flood control and hurricane prevention, with local governments offering more than $50 million toward the project. Nonetheless, "at least $250 million in crucial projects remained," the newspaper said.

In the past five years, the amount of money spent on all Corps construction projects in the New Orleans district has declined by 44 percent, according to the New Orleans CityBusiness newspaper, from $147 million in 2001 to $82 million in the current fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30.

A long history of complaints

Local officials had long complained that funding for hurricane protection projects was inadequate:

October 13, 2001: The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported that “federal officials are postponing new projects of the Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Program, or SELA, fearing that federal budget constraints and the cost of the war on terrorism may create a financial pinch for the program.” The paper went on to report that “President Bush’s budget proposed $52 million” for SELA in the 2002 fiscal year. The House approved $57 million and the Senate approved $62 million. Still, “the $62 million would be well below the $80 million that corps officials estimate is needed to pay for the next 12 months of construction, as well as design expenses for future projects.”
April 24, 2004: The Times-Picayune reported that “less money is available to the Army Corps of Engineers to build levees and water projects in the Missisippi River valley this year and next year.” Meanwhile, an engineer who had direct the Louisiana Coastal Area Ecosystem Restoration Study – a study of how to restore coastal wetlands areas in order to provide a bugger from hurricane storm surges – was sent to Iraq "to oversee the restoration of the ‘Garden of Eden’ wetlands at the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers,” for which President Bush’s 2005 gave $100 million.
June 8, 2004: Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told the Times-Picayune:
Walter Maestri: It appears that the money has been moved in the president’s budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq , and I suppose that’s the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can’t be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.

September 22, 2004: The Times-Picayune reported that a pilot study on raising the height of the levees surrounding New Orleans had been completed and generated enough information for a second study necessary to estimate the cost of doing so. The Bush administration “ordered the New Orleans district office” of the Army Corps of Engineers “not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money.”
June 6, 2005: The New Orleans CityBusiness newspaper reported that the New Orleans district of the Corps was preparing for a $71.2 million reduction in overall funding for the fiscal year beginning in October. That would have been the largest single-year funding loss ever. They noted that money “was so tight" that "the New Orleans district, which employs 1,300 people, instituted a hiring freeze last month on all positions,” which was “the first of its kind in about 10 years.”
Would Increased Funding Have Prevented Flooding?

Blumenthal implies that increased funding might have helped to prevent the catastrophic flooding that New Orleans now faces. The White House denies that, and the Corps of Engineers says that even the levee project they were working to complete was not designed to withstand a storm of Katrina's force.

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, at a press briefing on September 1, dismissed the idea that the President inadequately funded flood control projects in New Orleans :

McClellan: Flood control has been a priority of this administration from day one. We have dedicated an additional $300 million over the last few years for flood control in New Orleans and the surrounding area. And if you look at the overall funding levels for the Army Corps of Engineers, they have been slightly above $4.5 billion that has been signed by the President.

Q: Local people were asking for more money over the last couple of years. They were quoted in local papers in 2003 and 2004, are saying that they were told by federal officials there wasn't enough money because it was going to Iraq expenditures.

McClellan: You might want to talk to General Strock, who is the commander of the Army Corps of Engineers, because I think he's talked to some reporters already and talked about some of these issues. I think some people maybe have tried to make a suggestion or imply that certain funding would have prevented the flooding from happening, and he has essentially said there's been nothing to suggest that whatsoever, and it's been more of a design issue with the levees.

We asked the Corps about that “design issue.” David Hewitt, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers, said McClellan was referring to the fact that “the levees were designed for a category 3 hurricane.” He told us that, consequently, “when it became apparent that this was a category 5 hurricane, an evacuation of the city was ordered.” (A category 3 storm has sustained winds of no more than 130 miles per hour, while a category 5 storm has winds exceeding 155 miles per hour. Katrina had winds of 160 mph as it approached shore, but later weakened to winds of 140 mph as it made landfall, making it a strong category 4 storm, according to the National Hurricane Center.)

The levee upgrade project around Lake Pontchartrain was only 60 to 90 percent complete across most areas of New Orleans as of the end of May, according to the Corps' May 23 fact sheet. Still, even if it had been completed, the project's goal was protecting New Orleans from storm surges up to "a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane,” according to the fact sheet.

We don't know whether the levees would have done better had the work been completed. But the Corps says that even a completed levee project wasn't designed for the storm that actually occurred.

Nobody anticipated breach of the levees?

In an interview on ABC’s “Good Morning America” on September 1, President Bush said:

Bush: I don’t think anyone anticipated breach of the levees …Now we’re having to deal with it, and will.

Bush is technically correct that a "breach" wasn't anticipated by the Corps, but that's doesn't mean the flooding wasn't forseen. It was. But the Corps thought it would happen differently, from water washing over the levees, rather than cutting wide breaks in them.

Greg Breerword, a deputy district engineer for project management with the Army Corps of Engineers, told the New York Times:

Breerword: We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped. We never did think they would actually be breached.

And while Bush is also technically correct that the Corps did not "anticipate" a breach – in the sense that they believed it was a likely event – at least some in the Corps thought a breach was a possibility worth examining.

According to the Times-Picayune, early in Bush's first term FEMA director Joe Allbaugh ordered a sophisticated computer simulation of what would happen if a category 5 storm hit New Orleans. Joseph Suhayda, an engineer at Louisana State University who worked on the project, described to the newspaper in 2002 what the simulation showed could happen:

Subhayda: Another scenario is that some part of the levee would fail. It's not something that's expected. But erosion occurs, and as levees broke, the break will get wider and wider. The water will flow through the city and stop only when it reaches the next higher thing. The most continuous barrier is the south levee, along the river. That's 25 feet high, so you'll see the water pile up on the river levee.

Whether or not a "breach" was "anticipated," the fact is that many individuals have been warning for decades about the threat of flooding that a hurricane could pose to a set below sea level and sandwiched between major waterways. A Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report from before September 11, 2001 detailed the three most likely catastrophic disasters that could happen in the United States: a terrorist attack in New York, a strong earthquake in San Francisco, and a hurricane strike in New Orleans. In 2002, New Orleans officials held the simulation of what would happen in a category 5 storm. Walter Maestri, the emergency coordinator of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans , recounted the outcome to PBS’ NOW With Bill Moyers:

Maestri, September 2002: Well, when the exercise was completed it was evidence that we were going to lose a lot of people. We changed the name of the [simulated] storm from Delaney to K-Y-A-G-B... kiss your ass goodbye... because anybody who was here as that category five storm came across... was gone.

--by Matthew Barge

MrMacphisto
09-04-2005, 07:48 PM
I wouldn't blame Bush for the hurricane... that's Mother Nature at work. Bush could've left our National Guard in a more functional state by not having so many soldiers in Iraq, but that's beside the point....

asutickler
09-04-2005, 07:52 PM
Anybody who listens to Pat Robertson knows that gay people caused the hurricane. God's vengeful wrath upon our nation, or some such... :rolleyes:

New2u
09-04-2005, 08:32 PM
Anybody who listens to Pat Robertson knows that gay people caused the hurricane. God's vengeful wrath upon our nation, or some such... :rolleyes:

That's it!!! It was caused by too much "sinning". :jester: asu, I knew you'd find the answer.

Robace252
09-04-2005, 10:15 PM
New2U, I understand why you started this topic yet I wonder why you have not looked or responded to the MOUNDS of information I have posted on this subject. Where as all of your information begins in the year 2000 or 2001, all the information I have documented goes back to 1965! Yup since 1965 when the original procedures were put in place. I will link my threads here with compelling evidence and fact from not only the goverment including all administrations since 1965 the City of New Orleans itself and the Orleans Corps of engineers. Also the facts that when projects were approved the construction was stopped by enviromental lobbist that SUED the Corp of Engineers to make them stop time and time again to study and restudy the Hurricane Porctection Plan. As far back as 1998 during the clinton administration here is this info as just a teaser to what Ive found with some help here from a new friend Ive made. He now lives here in Mississippi but used to work for the Corps of Engineers in New Orleans..he showed me where to fid this info on their websites.

[Notices]
[Page 34151-34153]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr23jn98-32]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

Department of Army
Corps of Engineers


Intent To Prepare a Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS)
for the West Shore--Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana, Hurricane Protection
Feasibility Study

AGENCY: U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, New Orleans District, DoD.

ACTION: Notice of intent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[[Page 34152]]

SUMMARY: The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, New Orleans District
proposes to determine the feasibility of providing protection against
hurricane-induced flooding for residents located in portions of St.
Charles, St. John the Baptist, and St. James Parishes, Louisiana. The
study area, with a population in excess of 25,000 residents, is bounded
by the Bonnet Carre Spillway to the east, the Mississippi River to the
south, Lakes Pontchartrain and Maurepas to the north, and the St.
James/Ascension Parish line to the west. There are no Federal hurricane
protection projects protecting the study area from a tidal surge coming
from Lake Pontchartrain and Maurepas. The vulnerability of the study
area to a hurricane tidal surge is demonstrated by the fact that there
are an estimated 1,000 residential structures subject to flooding from
the 25-year storm, 3,990 residential structures subject to flooding
from the 100-year storm, and 4,020 residential structures subject to
flooding from the 500-year storm. The equivalent annual flood damages
for the without-project conditions are estimated at $9.4 million. A
reconnaissance study completed in June 1997, evaluated two alternative
alignments for providing hurricane protection to the study area at the
100-year and the standard project hurricane (SPH) levels of protection.
Both alternative alignments were determined to be economically
justified at both levels of protection. Hence, the reconnaissance
report recommended that the study proceed to the feasibility phase,
contingent upon the execution of a Feasibility Cost Sharing Agreement
(FCSA) with a non-Federal Sponsor. An FCSA was executed with the
Pontchartrain Levee District on March 16, 1998.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Questions regarding the proposed
action should be directed to the study manager, Mr. Brett H. Herr,
CEMVN-PD-FG, P.O. Box 60267, New Orleans, Louisiana 70160-0267,
telephone (504) 862-2495. Questions regarding the DEIS may be directed
to Dr. William P. Klein, Jr., CEMVN-PD-RS, P.O. Box 60267, New Orleans,
Louisiana 70160-0267, telephone (504) 862-2450.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

1. Authority

The study was authorized by a resolution adopted on July 29, 1971,
by the Committee on Public Works of the U.S. House of Representatives;
and by a resolution adopted on September 20, 1974, by the Committee on
Public Works of the U.S. Senate.

2. Proposed Action

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, New Orleans District proposes to
investigate the feasibility of providing hurricane protection to
residents living west of the Bonnet Carre Spillway between the
Mississippi River and Lakes Pontchartrain and Maurepas. The study area
is located on the ``east bank'' of the Mississippi River and includes
portions of St. Charles, St. John the Baptist, and St. James Parishes.

3. Study Alternatives

Two alternative alignments for providing hurricanes protection to
the study area were evaluated during the reconnaissance study phase.
The two alignments are identical except for a portion located west of
Belle Terre Boulevard. Both alignments (Plan 1 and Plan 2) begin at the
west guide levee of the Bonnet Carre Spillway, approximately 2 miles
south of Lake Pontchartrain. Both alignments end at U.S. Highway 61 in
the vicinity of the Reserve Relief Canal. The alignment for Plan 1 more
closely follows the existing limits of development and encloses less
wooded swamps and bottomland hardwoods than Plan 2. The alignment for
Plan 2 parallels Interstate 10 for an additional 1.2 miles west of the
Belle Terre Boulevard interchange before turning to the southwest and
heading back towards U.S. Highway 61. The alignments for Plan 1 and
Plan 2 do not follow the wetland/nonwetland interface. Plan 1 and Plan
2 would enclose approximately 3,269 acres and 4,614 acres of wooded
swamps and bottomland hardwoods, respectively.
An alternative alignment (Plan 3), provided by the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service (USFWS) will be evaluated during this study. This
USFWS alignment more closely follows the existing wetlands/non-wetlands
interface. These three alternative plans, along with other alternative
plans developed during the feasibility phase, will be evaluated in more
detail such that the level of protection provided by the proposed
action will be optimized based on an economic analysis of the benefits
and costs. Design features will be fully evaluated to ensure compliance
with current Federal and state laws and regulations. Any adverse
effects of the alternative plans will be identified and appropriate
mitigation measures will be included in the plans. An Environmental
Impact Statement (EIS) will be prepared during the feasibility phase
because of the potential for significant direct and indirect impacts on
the human environment in general, and on large tracts of forested
wetlands, in particular.

4. Scoping Process

An intensive public involvement program will be initiated and
maintained throughout the study to solicit input from affected Federal,
state, and local agencies, Indian tribes, and interested private
organizations and individuals. Scoping is a critical component of the
overall public involvement program. The scoping process is designed to
provide an early and open means of determining the scope of issues
(problems, needs, and opportunities) to be identified and addressed in
the DEIS.

5. Public Scoping Meeting

In the summer of 1998, the New Orleans District of the U.S. Army
Corps of Engineers will hold at least one public meeting in the study
area to receive oral and written comments on the proposed action.
Notices will be mailed to the affected and interested public once the
date of the public scoping meeting has been established. Comments
received as a result of the scoping meeting will be compiled and
analyzed; and a Scoping Document, summarizing the results, will be made
available to all participants.

6. Interagency Coordination

The Department of Interior will provide a Fish and Wildlife
Coordination Act Report. Coordination will be maintained with the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service and/or the National Marine Fisheries Service
on threatened and endangered species. Coordination will be maintained
with the Natural Resources Conservation Service regarding prime and
unique farmlands. The U.S. Department of Agriculture will be consulted
regarding the ``Swampbuster'' provisions of the Food Security Act. We
will prepare a Section 404(b)(1) evaluation. Coordination will be
maintained with the Advisory Counsel on Historic Preservation and the
State Historic Preservation Officer. The Louisiana Department of
Natural Resources will be consulted regarding consistency with the
Coastal Zone Management Act. The Louisiana Department of Wildlife and
Fisheries will be contacted concerning potential impacts to Natural and
Scenic Streams. Application will be made to the Louisiana Department of
Environmental Quality for a Water Quality Certificate.

7. Availability of DEIS

It is anticipated that the DEIS will be available for public review
during the

[[Page 34153]]

summer of 2000. A 45-day review period will be allowed so that all
interested agencies, groups and individuals will have an opportunity to
comment on the draft report and EIS. In addition, a public meeting will
be held during the review period to receive comments and address
questions concerning the draft EIS.

Dated: June 9, 1998.
William L. Conner,
Colonel, U.S. Army, District Engineer.
[FR Doc. 98-16642 Filed 6-22-98; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 3710-84-M

So to know that in 1998 they were still studing this...and we all know from all experts it takes more than 7 years to build up these levy's. I even have internal memo's from the Corps of engineers that state it would take 10 to 20 years to do these projects.
Here is my post link giving the bulk of my information, only on the govt. not the posts on the City of New Orleans Evacuation plans that were in place but not followed.
Link: www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?t=64641
The logical reason money was taken from projects is that they were caught up in litigation and why have money sitting around when you can not use it.
How could you spend the 60, 70, 80, 400 million on something that can not be constructed because of EPA studies, Enviromental Impact studies and the like. I suppose we could have left all that money there and then we would be asking...with a budget of 800 million dollars unspent on levy projects why didnt they do anything if they had the money. Answer again is simple...Study after study after study. I find it fascinating that everyone wants to say that money was taken away, yet NO ONE will say why besides Iraq...Iraq...Iraq. Yes it was taken to suppliment Iraq, but the money was available to be taken because you cant build until you study it...so say the lobbist and judges.

Corps of Engineers-New Orleans District
Sept/Oct 2004
Old plans revived for Category 5 hurricane protection north shore to the Mississippi River, by Eric Lincoln.

Engineering and Project Management are determining costs for a hurricane protection feasibility study that could lead to a project to protect southeast Louisiana from Category 5 hurricane storm surges.

One of four alternatives to be investigated will include blocking tidal surges at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur Pass. The concept was part of the original Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection project.

In 1977, plans for hurricane protection structures at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur Pass were sunk when environmental groups sued the district. They believed that the environmental impact statement did not adequately address several potential problems, including impacts on Lake Pontchartrain’s ecosystem and damage to wetlands.

Again read my posts and then let me know here or in a PM what you think.
Also Im currently putting all my info me and the gentleman here helping me into a large article and Im mailing it to every TV station, newspaper ands radio station in the WORLD!! Those of you in Canada and England I especailly need to let me know where I can send this too for the CBC and the BBC.

New2u
09-06-2005, 12:20 AM
robace, thanks for the tip. I was not aware of this info that you speak of. I'll check into it when I get the time.

I began this thread not as an attack on Bush but more of a lesson on circumstances and Govn't bureacracy.

Mimi
09-06-2005, 01:02 AM
I am by no means a fan of Bush in any sense, but I do feel he is getting the majority of the anger and blame unfairly in this situation. It was nature, plain and simple. Should the levee have been fixed and strengthened before this happened? Of course. But there are lots of things in this country that need attention, but they get put on the back burner because there is simply not enough money to tend to them all and something more pressing always seems to come up (hell, we all go through that ourselves with our own monthly finances and bills). And there were more presidents than George W. alone who passed on the chance to finance the improvements.

Lots of people share at least a little blame for the disaster brought on by Hurricane Katrina. To put it all on Bush alone is taking a cheap and convenient shot.

Cosmo_ac
09-06-2005, 01:16 AM
While i'm sure everybody knows i pretty much hate Bush and Company, i have to agree with Mimi in the sense that i don;t think Bush deserves all of the blame. Some, yes. But all, no.

Red Jester
09-06-2005, 02:20 AM
A fact posted on the internet stops being a fact.

Robace252
09-06-2005, 02:51 AM
How could a fact stop being a fact when its posted on the internet? Does that mean that evolution is not a fact. That the Earth is not a fact. OH and I guess Katrina isnt a fact because it was posted on the internet. Again Im just respectfully disagreeing with you, possibly because your statement seems a little vauge and all-encompassing Red. Maybe you could explain it to me with a little more. I actually am interested in what you mean. I might have misunderstood what you said or how you meant it..Ive done it before.
And again, Cosmo or you all abroad let me know how I can get my info the BBC or CBC...I am serious about sending all of this off.