Curious to what you would have done? (parent opinion)

[german]

Something happened today were I dont know if I did the right thing or not and want to know what a parent would of done.

My brother asked me if I could look after his son obviously my nephew while he did some running around as it would be easier for him taking my god daughter instead of both and my girl friend having Mondays off answered yes before I could say anything. So you can see why I'm looking for a parents opinion as he was in my care.

So we packed a picnic when to the local park with a soccer ball to play around. Everything was great until the ball went past him and he said he will go after it (he was always in my sight) it stopped were a group of 6 guys were standing I say around 16-17 years old. I thought they would pass it back to him being only 4 and a half but no they kick it away from him not a tap but a big kick then they scared him by going 'boo' or something. I saw this and I was walking towards him soon as they kicked the ball, he was crying and upset, I hugged him and said it will be alright and go to aunt Danielle.

She knew what was going to happen as I took off my chain, my bracelet, my sun glasses and hat before I went over there. I made sure my nephew was safe with my g/f before I did what I did. I approached the group in a calm manner not looking for trouble or anything then one of them goes "what do ya want, this has nothing to do with you f**k off" all of them were laughing thinking it was funny picking on a 4 yr old. I just grabbed him and head butt him then laid into him when he was on the ground lefts and rights. The others just stood their looking one even ran to ball and picked it up and handed it to me and all the others were going sorry it was his idea, I was like he is four years old and you think its funny picking on him; I was shaking that I was that angry they ran off and I walked back to him and Danielle.

He was alright after an ice cream but I'm worried that my reaction was over the top but when they did what they did to my nephew something inside of me just clicked. I felt I let him and my brother down as I meant to be looking after him what would a parent have done?

Kust

[venray]

Definitely over the top......Probably would have reacted much the same myself though..... :cool2:

[Strider]

Overboard? Probably. Would I have done the same thing? Probably.

As long as you didn't get yourself arrested for it, I say more power to you.

[ViperGTS]

I'm no parent, but still, if in the situation, I would have grabbed him by the shoulder, turned him around to face me, and thrown about the most powerful punch I'd ever thrown in my life. Fucker.

[PainTrain]

You did the right thing. Bravo.

[Fire Sprite]

I agree with everyone else here. Violence is ussually a last resort thing for me, but some people are beyond understanding the fallacy of their actions. In which case putting them in a world of hurt is the only way to rectify the situation.

[kis123]

Yes you overracted and I hope you will react in a more calm manner in the future in order to avoid jail. However, I'm betting that the individuals in question think a lot of times over before they pick on an innocent 4 year old ever again.

Sometimes, folks don't get the point until it's beaten into them... :disgust: :sowrong:

[luvgirlsfeet]

German..Good for you!!!!! i would have done the same thing

[kered]

Six teens against a four year old? Yeah, I also would have had a little "talk" with the cowards. We have a saying here in my neck of the woods for a situation like that. "whatever happens to them is their problem"

[Sultrybrunette]

As a single parent of two teen boys, the issue of being a bully has come up numerous times. Both boys know that I will not tolerate it from them or any of their friends. Granted, what they do away from here I cannot control. More than likely these boys have had no discipline at home. I think you did right. They need to know they cant get away with that kind of stuff. If what you did scared you then you need to figure out what you could have done differently but I think you did fine. Your nephew will definitely know he is safe and protected with you.

[ShadowTklr]

Since you asked for the opinion of a parent, let me tell you that what you did has no upside. It was wrong on many different levels.

When I have my small children with me, there are only two rules that I abide by to insure the welfare of my kids:

1. Do not place your child, or by your actions, cause your child to be placed in a situation that could be potentially harmful.

2. Do not place yourself in any situation that could remove, or compromise your ability to follow Rule # 1.

What if your head butt would have killed him, caused a seizure, or fractured his skull?
What if all six of them had jumped in the fight?
What if you would have been arrested?
What if you had been killed or seriously injured?
What if one of them pulled a gun, and shot your nephew, or wife by accident?

These are the critical thinking questions that a good parent trains him or herself to ask when confronted with situations such as the one you described.

Your responsibility was to your nephew's safety, and you compromised that responsibility, the second you put yourself in harms way.

Plese be more careful in the future.

[tulipangel]

Heck I dont have kids but If I was watching my sisters kids..... I would have done the same thing! In fact, that kid would have needed a hospital! Picking on a little kid? Geesh! That teenager needed a godd @$$ kicking! Good for you!

[The Sean Man]

I wish more people would take that kind of stand against dumb-ass, loudmouthed teenagers. Why is it the only thing they understand is "Scared Straight" type encounters.

To quote the snooty waiter from Ferris Beuller:

"I weep for the future."

[slacker2114]

Oh yeah, you over-reacted. However, I have a lot of nieces and nephews, one of them being autistic. Someone picks on them, there will be hell to pay. First order, move the child/ren out of sight with another adult. Then I would have done the exact same thing. As far as worrying that they all would have jumped in, highly unlikely. They already showed that they were cowards. Most likely, they see one of them getting a pummeling, the others are gonna back up REAL fast as was the case with you.

Many say violence isn't the answer. Sometimes, violence is the ONLY answer. You did well. Just don't let reactions like that get out of control.

[Mz Chaos]

Well, I wouldn't have head-butted. That would have hurt me too much in spite of my friends opinion that I have a thick skull.
I'm the shirt-collar-grabbing-pull-you-close-get-in-your-face-slap-the-snot-out-of-assholes-that-pick-on-little-kids kind of person.
I think you did just fine. :bowing:

[steph]

I think your feelings and reaction are understandable, but you don't want to leave a 4-year old with the impression that violence is how you solve problems, right?

Course if I were in your place, I might have made in sniffle a little, just by screaming at him. :D
XOXO

[LindyHopper]

People (by which I mean everyone who said that beating the bully up was a fine thing to do) - think about this! There is no justification for what german did. Adults, charged with the care of children, are the ones who need to be responsible in situations like these. "Losing it" in anger, whatever the target is, is bad parenting. Let's review what the parties in question would have learned from what happened:

Bullying teens: Don't pick on a four-year old if there's someone bigger around who might kick your ass for it. Otherwise, it's all fun and games.

Four year old nephew: Violence is the solution to problems. For now, get your uncle's help, and when you're bigger, do it yourself.

In short, german was angry at the teenagers for picking on someone smaller, so he, as the even-bigger person, beat up on them. What kind of example does that set?

If you want to teach the bullies the appropriate lesson, use shame. "You're picking on a little kid? Is that how weak you are? How pathetic? What, you're afraid that ten-year-old over there could beat the crap out of you? You're an embarrassment. You should be ashamed of yourselves." Then walk away (ignore the nervous, derisive laughter - what did you expect from a bunch of teens?) and take care of your nephew.

As for what to teach the nephew? Comfort him (the ice cream was a good call), and explain to him that some people are stupid and mean, but they can only hurt your feelings if you let them. And you have the ball back, so let's play.

Let's face it german - beating up that kid (because at 16 or so, he is still a kid), was something that you needed, because you were angry. It didn't do anything for your nephew, and it didn't teach those kids any lesson except "don't get caught." You can do much better than that.

[german]

I know there were different ways I could have approached the situation and I'm the first to say my approach wasn't the best, however I feel I did enough to protect my nephew not only from the 'bullying' but also from the actions the took place afterwards.

I made sure that he was safe and that he wasn't and that he didn't have the opportunity to turn around and witness the events, if it was only me I would walked away no questions but with my g/f there and that I trusted her to shelter him from what happened which she did. He asked when I came back what happened he didn't see anything at all and I said to him that I got his ball, so him not knowing what happened gave me a bit more comfort. The last thing I would ever want is for him to grow up thinking violence is the answer. I explained to him as well that some people are just 'naughty' and dont worry about them.

Picking on a kid, he was 17 and had about 20 pounds on me which doesn't make it right in any case but putting me in there category doesn't seem justifiable and I only hit him as he got up into my face and started mouthing off. I had no intentions of walking over there and starting a fight but Ive been around and I know what sort of the people they are. As for guns and knives I doubt it, if they did they weren't going to use them. That's something I picked up in the psychology part of the police exam; how to read people in a situation.

Lastly as for being arrested or charged very unlikely. I dont support corruption in any level of government office but I know most of the police in the area it took place, I did the police exam and course with most of them and the officer in charge is a close family friend so I dont think anything would have happened but that was the last thing on my mind during the whole thing.

Kust

[Redmage]

I think that violence is sometimes appropriate to prevent harm to someone else. Violence after the fact, though, usually serves no useful purpose. In fact, the only benefit I can see coming out of it is the personal satisfaction of the person committing the violence.

And isn't personal satisfaction the reason that those kids picked on a child in the first place?

My response, if I weren't close enough to intervene before the fact (in which case I might be violent, I admit), would be to walk over and, as my wife puts it, "loom" at them while I explained that I didn't think much of the manhood of anyone who would torment a child. Hopefully, the combination of body language and disgust would get them to look at themselves - which is the only way that they'll ever really change.

[isabeau]

all i can say after reading this thread.. is what kind of people pick on a four year old? i don't care how tough they think they are.. that is plain wrong

isabeau

[kis123]

I know there were different ways I could have approached the situation and I'm the first to say my approach wasn't the best, however I feel I did enough to protect my nephew not only from the 'bullying' but also from the actions the took place afterwards.

I made sure that he was safe and that he wasn't and that he didn't have the opportunity to turn around and witness the events, if it was only me I would walked away no questions but with my g/f there and that I trusted her to shelter him from what happened which she did. He asked when I came back what happened he didn't see anything at all and I said to him that I got his ball, so him not knowing what happened gave me a bit more comfort. The last thing I would ever want is for him to grow up thinking violence is the answer. I explained to him as well that some people are just 'naughty' and dont worry about them.

Picking on a kid, he was 17 and had about 20 pounds on me which doesn't make it right in any case but putting me in there category doesn't seem justifiable and I only hit him as he got up into my face and started mouthing off. I had no intentions of walking over there and starting a fight but Ive been around and I know what sort of the people they are. As for guns and knives I doubt it, if they did they weren't going to use them. That's something I picked up in the psychology part of the police exam; how to read people in a situation.

Lastly as for being arrested or charged very unlikely. I dont support corruption in any level of government office but I know most of the police in the area it took place, I did the police exam and course with most of them and the officer in charge is a close family friend so I dont think anything would have happened but that was the last thing on my mind during the whole thing.

Kust


As a parent of a disabled child, I don't necessarily agree with your solution, but understand just what you were feeling when this crap took place. I do support you to a certain extent just in order for you to make sure you don't get jailed or involved in a lawsuit. You shouldn't have to suffer because you were protecting your 4 year old nephew. Please understand that in the future, you have other options. I don't want the nephew to feel that violence is the solution.

Some people are expressing their views-I think that it's important for a child to know that there's someone who thinks enough of them to stand up. I don't support your solution, but I still believe that no one would have paid you attention if they had any other options.

Try not to fly off the handle next time-I personally hope that there is NEVER a "next time"............ :shake:

[drew70]

I know there were different ways I could have approached the situation and I'm the first to say my approach wasn't the best, however I feel I did enough to protect my nephew not only from the 'bullying' but also from the actions the took place afterwards.

I made sure that he was safe and that he wasn't and that he didn't have the opportunity to turn around and witness the events, if it was only me I would walked away no questions but with my g/f there and that I trusted her to shelter him from what happened which she did. He asked when I came back what happened he didn't see anything at all and I said to him that I got his ball, so him not knowing what happened gave me a bit more comfort. The last thing I would ever want is for him to grow up thinking violence is the answer. I explained to him as well that some people are just 'naughty' and dont worry about them.

Picking on a kid, he was 17 and had about 20 pounds on me which doesn't make it right in any case but putting me in there category doesn't seem justifiable and I only hit him as he got up into my face and started mouthing off. I had no intentions of walking over there and starting a fight but Ive been around and I know what sort of the people they are. As for guns and knives I doubt it, if they did they weren't going to use them. That's something I picked up in the psychology part of the police exam; how to read people in a situation.

Lastly as for being arrested or charged very unlikely. I dont support corruption in any level of government office but I know most of the police in the area it took place, I did the police exam and course with most of them and the officer in charge is a close family friend so I dont think anything would have happened but that was the last thing on my mind during the whole thing.

KustWe've seen a couple of absolutely ridiculous responses to the effect of this being the worst possible way to handle it, but let's face it. These are the type of people who would say you should have sat around a campfire with those teenagers and everybody talk about their feelings. Don't buy into the guilt trip some will lay on you. They weren't there. You were. The fact that you made certain the child was taken care of before you went over to give those shitheads the asskicking they'd obviously long had coming suggests to me that it was not a kneejerk reaction of somebody losing their temper. You handled it the best way possible. Especially the head butt. Way to go! :bowing:

[ViperGTS]

We've seen a couple of absolutely ridiculous responses to the effect of this being the worst possible way to handle it, but let's face it. These are the type of people who would say you should have sat around a campfire with those teenagers and everybody talk about their feelings. Don't buy into the guilt trip some will lay on you. They weren't there. You were. The fact that you made certain the child was taken care of before you went over to give those shitheads the asskicking they'd obviously long had coming suggests to me that it was not a kneejerk reaction of somebody losing their temper. You handled it the best way possible. Especially the head butt. Way to go! :bowing:

I very much agree. You made the 100% right decision to make sure the kiddo was safe and out of line of sight before taking care of your business. I don't know that I would have been able to take the time to think and take those actions first before going over and giving them whatfor. I guess I just have much growing up to do.

[Redmage]

You made the 100% right decision to make sure the kiddo was safe and out of line of sight before taking care of your business.Viper, what good outcome do you think would come out of assaulting those delinquents? I can tell that you think this is important to do, so you must think it would do some good for someone. Can you tell me how?

[LindyHopper]

We've seen a couple of absolutely ridiculous responses to the effect of this being the worst possible way to handle it, but let's face it. These are the type of people who would say you should have sat around a campfire with those teenagers and everybody talk about their feelings.
Hardly. Those of us who were advocating solving this conflict with words did not suggest warm fuzzy ones. Go back and check what we actually wrote, will ya?

Don't buy into the guilt trip some will lay on you. They weren't there. You were. The fact that you made certain the child was taken care of...
Yes - you certainly did the right thing by making sure your nephew wasn't there to see the beatdown. Stiil, I believe you (meaning everyone) should strive to live your life in such a way that you can stand by all your actions with pride, including the ones your children aren't there to watch in person.

...before you went over to give those shitheads the asskicking they'd obviously long had coming suggests to me that it was not a kneejerk reaction of somebody losing their temper. You handled it the best way possible. Especially the head butt. Way to go! :bowing:
This from a man who thinks that spanking a woman who desires it is some kind of unforgivable sin. I'll never understand conservatives. :rolleyes:

[LindyHopper]

Viper, what good outcome do you think would come out of assaulting those delinquents? I can tell that you think this is important to do, so you must think it would do some good for someone. Can you tell me how?
Not to analyze Viper's words like he's not here or anything, but I don't see anything in his post that necessarily suggests that he thinks that assaulting the delinquents would be good for anyone. I think the way he referred to that part as "your business" was dead on - beating up the punks is something to make the parent feel better, not the kid. And he quite astutely notes that controlling his temper, while challenging, is a mark of maturity.

[toneus79]

German, as someone who both: does martial arts as a means of learning how to keep control of ones temper, and also who works in an enviroment where intimidation, violence, and bad behaviour is an almost hourly occurence, I would say you overeacted.

First of all forget all the wet nose liberals here who suggest ticking them off or shaming them, because the one thing they don't seem to get (because they are civilised reasonable people of course) is that you can't reason with morons. However the fact that you can't reason with morons doesn't mean the approach is to escalate a conflict with them either. You lucked out because like all punks who give it large, they are cowards at heart. Yet cowards also attack on masse, and also carry and use weapons. Violent conflicts usually end up with oneself either in court or hospital (neither sounds a good place to me).

The bottom line was your four year old wasn't in any immediate danger, despite their boorish behaviour, and also the fact that you were taking off watches, rings etc, before approaching them means you were anything but calm, and were spoiling for a punch up.

I train with some very dangerous people (as in having the ability to kill with one bare hand strike type people). Their reaction would have been to walk over and retrieve the ball keeping a safe distance from the group, ignore all the sneers and derision, whilst saying nothing at all, and return to the child and mother. They would never do anything to initiate or escalate a minor incident like that into any sort of conflict. Obviously if one or all of the group was to follow that person, with the intention of escalating the situation themselves, then they would learn a very quick and harsh lesson. That would then also be something that would be defensible in law, your reaction however understandable wasn't. After all I don't know about the US, but it is amazing how a 6ft leather jacketed sneering muscle bound yob, can turn into a 15 year old child, when incidents like that are reported in the media.

The fact is there is a world of morons out there. They won't change and there is always more to take their place. The only thing that can change is your approach.

[The Sean Man]

Words no longer stop people from being idiots. We now live in a world where people are afraid to stand up for themselves out of fear of physical violence or lawsuits. There is no longer such a thing as retribution, or punishment. Idiots know this, and now do whatever they want with no fear.

[drew70]

Hardly. Those of us who were advocating solving this conflict with words did not suggest warm fuzzy ones. Go back and check what we actually wrote, will ya?Oh hi, Lindy. Sure, I'll go back and check. Let me just grab the air bag here and we can all have a rousing chorus of Kumbaya! Look, I'm not a fan of violence for the sake of violence, but those teenagers needed more than words. Redmage asked what good those actions did and for whom. Teenagers like that have been thumbing their nose at adults simply because they can. I know, I used to be one. I didn't bully kids but I thought I knew it all and nothing any adults told me would sink in. I just wish Kust was there when I was a teenager to give me a head-butt, but my lesson came later, in the military. I don't expect you, as a woman to understand, but many of us guys have to learn things the hard way. A good swift kick in the ass does wonders to dislodge the head that's stuck up there. I'd bet real money that when those teenagers mature into adults, they'll look back and admit they had that asskicking coming.

Yes - you certainly did the right thing by making sure your nephew wasn't there to see the beatdown. Stiil, I believe you (meaning everyone) should strive to live your life in such a way that you can stand by all your actions with pride, including the ones your children aren't there to watch in person.I would prefer to stand by my actions with satisfaction. Pride is a self-exalting manifestation of ego. Kust should not feel proud of what he's done. But neither should he feel ashamed. He has every right to view his actions with the satisfaction of knowing he did the right thing. And for the record, you are the last person who has any business pointing a finger and preaching conduct for which one can be proud.

This from a man who thinks that spanking a woman who desires it is some kind of unforgivable sin. I'll never understand conservatives. :rolleyes:No sin is unforgivable. Not even extra-marital promiscuity. ;)

[natural tickler]

You owe no one an explanation. You did well, you had to show those jerks what time it was. You were looking after you nephew. Now being an uncle myself with lots of nieces and nephews, I am protective of them. If the situation was the same as yours, the hospital right now would have to go to surgery, because they would need an operation to get my foot out his ass

[Redmage]

Not to analyze Viper's words like he's not here or anything, but I don't see anything in his post that necessarily suggests that he thinks that assaulting the delinquents would be good for anyone. I think the way he referred to that part as "your business" was dead on - beating up the punks is something to make the parent feel better, not the kid. And he quite astutely notes that controlling his temper, while challenging, is a mark of maturity.Well, I'm still waiting to hear from Viper, because he seemed fairly explicitly to be agreeing with Drew, and to be saying that he would have done the same thing - only perhaps without german's emotional control. So I'm wondering, if he thinks this was a good thing, what good he thinks it would accomplish.

You owe no one an explanation. You did well, you had to show those jerks what time it was.He posted here asking for other peoples' opinions. Presumably he wouldn't have done that if he thought he'd get only one.

Words no longer stop people from being idiots. We now live in a world where people are afraid to stand up for themselves out of fear of physical violence or lawsuits. There is no longer such a thing as retribution, or punishment. Idiots know this, and now do whatever they want with no fear.Sorry, I just don't buy it. Sean, can you point me to a time when words ever stopped people from being idiots? I can't think of when it might be.

And I'd like to present the same question to you and Natural Tickler that I did to Viper: what is the point here? Do you really think that "punishing" these deliquents by beating up one of them is going to do any good?

Let's think this through. I doubt very much that these young punks just woke up that morning and said to themselves, "You know, I've never bullied anyone before. I think I'll give it a try today." More likely, they were trained to be assholes by the assholes that went before them and that beat up and bullied them when they were small. Not so?

So, why would we expect that more beatings will improve them?

[rajee]

Here's my 2 cents worth:

1) What's done is done. German's nephew isn't physically harmed. So far so good with regards to the punks not pressing charges.

2) Beating the !@#$ of the punk on the ground was going a bit too far. He let his emotions get the better of him. Yet, I know if I had gone to cuss them out and 1 or more of them had began to surround me and provoke me then I would think my safety would be in jeopardy.
In which case, like German's headbutt, a reasonable show of force to ensure my
escape would be necessary. I am 5 feet 7 and a half to 8 inches tall. Chances are anyone who wants to pick a fight with me are going to be taller, more athletic, heavier, and more muscular.

3) I'm just glad German and his family are unharmed and German isn't in prison. I am relieved that German under different circumstances would have not used violence.

Personally, If a group of older trouble-maker kids who were taller than myself
started to harass my 14 year old cousin I would do what was necessary to get him away from the group and then we would both leave. If I had to elbow/punch a teenager in the solar plexus or kick them in the crotch to get him out of harms way, then so be it. :dogpile:

[stloldg]

No, you didn’t over react if they tormented a 4 year old just for shits and grins than was disrespectful to you when you walked up to asked them about it, than they need to have their butt kicked.

That’s the problem with our youth today; they believe that everyone should be scare of them or give them what they want. That they don’t have to respect anyone not either their parents, it’s my belief that others allow them to get away with it before that’s why it was so easy for them to do it to your nephew.

They are either the school bullies that picks on smaller or weaker kids because they are a bunch of punks. Everyone wants to run to court and sue for little crap like this, when I was younger it was one on one, and may the best man win. By the time I was 15; all the guys that I fought against would look for better ways to solve out problems other than fighting. But, let it be known that we would fight if we had to.

[General Zod]

With the exeption of head-butting,I think you did the right thing You could have seriously hurt yourself by doing that Yes I think punks like them should be tought a lesson Sometimes it has to be violent

[Redmage]

Yes I think punks like them should be tought a lesson Sometimes it has to be violentWhat lesson do you think they learned, Zod?

[drew70]

The most important lesson of all. Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you. Mistreating people can carry very negative consequences. If you're looking to hurt, expect to be hurt. It's not we're talking rocket science or anything.

[LindyHopper]

By my count on this thread, the most often-cited reason for beating up the teenage punks has been "to teach them a lesson." My question is, what lesson do you think that would teach? All you're doing is modeling bullying behavior to bullies, teaching them that violence is the way that problems are solved, even by adults.

I just wish Kust was there when I was a teenager to give me a head-butt, but my lesson came later, in the military. I don't expect you, as a woman to understand, but many of us guys have to learn things the hard way. A good swift kick in the ass does wonders to dislodge the head that's stuck up there.

So you're telling me that if someone gives my kids a good ass-kicking, they'll turn out like you? :xlime: You're just proving my point: young people who get their asses kicked grow up into adults who think that ass-kicking is a viable educational tool. That's not what I want for my children, or anyone else's.

The other major problem with punishment is that it only works as a deterrent when the punisher is around - if bullies think they won't get caught, they feel free to bully, because they have no internally-motivated reason not to. The punks that german beat up will be no less likely to repeat their behavior if they think they'll get away with it.

The only thing that is going to prevent bullies from picking on little kids later on is learning that doing so does not bring about personal satisfaction. And the only way to accomplish that is to highlight for them that anyone who ties their manhood to their ability to make a little kid cry is a pathetic excuse for a human being.

I would prefer to stand by my actions with satisfaction. Pride is a self-exalting manifestation of ego. Kust should not feel proud of what he's done. But neither should he feel ashamed. He has every right to view his actions with the satisfaction of knowing he did the right thing.
Your personal negative take on the word "pride" has nothing to do with the point I was making: that an action that is wrong, that goes against the example you would want to set for a child, does not become right because the child didn't see you do it.

And for the record, you are the last person who has any business pointing a finger and preaching conduct for which one can be proud.

No sin is unforgivable. Not even extra-marital promiscuity. ;)
Hey, I thought you were "jolly about poly!" :jester: Or was that just your way of bailing on that thread as quickly as possible before too many people saw it?

Anyway, I suppose that was mild compared to other slurs I've received on this forum. Where's Johnny Ticklish when you need him, eh drew? :D

[General Zod]

What lesson do you think they learned, Zod?


It's called Kharma Some people only learn by getting hit With any luck those punks learned their lesson Those punks made a choice to bully others I went through a bunch of crap by a mean ex-stepfather Did I take my frustrations out on others by being a bully? No I didn't That is because I knew I'd get into trouble or get knocked around for it

[Redmage]

It's called Kharma Some people only learn by getting hit With any luck those punks learned their lessonKarma? You mean "actions have consequences?" They probably know that already. The question is, which actions, which consequences?

Will they learn, "It's wrong to pick on people smaller and weaker than you are?" That's the ideal lesson for them to learn, but since one of them was just beaten up by someone bigger and stronger than he was that's not likely to be their take-away from this.

More likely the lessons they'll learn will be something like


Don't get caught.
Don't pick on someone smaller than you if he might be able to get support from someone bigger.
Don't take on a bigger guy one on one - get your buddies to help.
Always make sure the person you're hassling really is defensless.

I'm not seeing the value in any of these "karmic" lessons. None of them actually solves the problem or prevents future issues. They just make the perps slyer about it.

This is the fundamental difference between "punishment" and "rehabilitation."

Those punks made a choice to bully others I went through a bunch of crap by a mean ex-stepfather Did I take my frustrations out on others by being a bully? No I didn't That is because I knew I'd get into trouble or get knocked around for itAnd I applaud that - though I'm not sure that keeping your violent impulses in check solely by fear made you a better person.

But different people take different paths. Do you really think that these kids became bullies just because no one ever gave them a really good beating? That doesn't seem realistic. It seems more likely that they were taught their trade by the best bullies their families and neighborhoods had to offer. I can't see that giving them another beating on top of that is really going to turn their lives around.

[drew70]

By my count on this thread, the most often-cited reason for beating up the teenage punks has been "to teach them a lesson." My question is, what lesson do you think that would teach? All you're doing is modeling bullying behavior to bullies, teaching them that violence is the way that problems are solved, even by adults.There is a world of difference between bullying and punishing. Bullies are cowards who threaten those weaker then them unprovoked, to get something they want, which could be anything from misplaced satisfaction in exercising dominance, or something more tangible, such as lunch money.

Punishing is a responsive action to a wrong, in an effort to communicate to the wrongdoer that a similar decision in the future might be worth rethinking.

What Kust did to those kids was not bullying. He was outnumbered, for one. Second, it's not like he just saw a bunch of kids and thought, "hey, I don't like their looks, I think I'll just give em one or two headbutts." He did it in response to their act of injustice, to teach them a lesson they'll likely never forget.

So you're telling me that if someone gives my kids a good ass-kicking, they'll turn out like you? :xlime: No, that's not what I'm telling you. What I'm telling you is that sometimes...not always...but sometimes, an asskicking sends a much clearer message than words do, one that is often remembered for a long, long time.

You're just proving my point: young people who get their asses kicked grow up into adults who think that ass-kicking is a viable educational tool. That's not what I want for my children, or anyone else's.It is a viable tool whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. Your children are not what is being discussed here, but I respectfully suggest that before you make such a decision, you consult with their father. Well, make that "fathers" in your case.

The other major problem with punishment is that it only works as a deterrent when the punisher is around - if bullies think they won't get caught, they feel free to bully, because they have no internally-motivated reason not to. The punks that german beat up will be no less likely to repeat their behavior if they think they'll get away with it.I disagree. Remember that most bullies are essentially cowards. Let's say those same dipshits move on to another beach. One of them says, "hey, let's pick on that little kid." Quite likely, he'll get a slap upside the head by one of his buddies, probably the one who received the headbutt, who will say, "Have you lost your mind? Are you THAT interested in another asskicking??" The fact that Kust is no longer there doesn't preclude the possibility of another defender of helpless kids. If it happened once, it can and likely will happen again.
The only thing that is going to prevent bullies from picking on little kids later on is learning that doing so does not bring about personal satisfaction. And the only way to accomplish that is to highlight for them that anyone who ties their manhood to their ability to make a little kid cry is a pathetic excuse for a human being.You say that as if it's a simple little task. Most bullies don't give shit what you or I think about them. We can highlight all we want, but for most of them, it'll go in one ear and out the other. Like it or not, an asskicking is all some people at that age will understand. Yes, it's harsh and it's not something to glorify or to take pleasure in. It's simply just another cold hard fact of life.

Your personal negative take on the word "pride" has nothing to do with the point I was making: that an action that is wrong, that goes against the example you would want to set for a child, does not become right because the child didn't see you do it.My personal apologies for misunderstang you. Yes, I do agree with that. However, there are some things that are right and good, but are best kept hidden from a child until he or she is of a more appropriate age. In other words, hiding an action from a child doesn't make that action a bad one.

Hey, I thought you were "jolly about poly!" :jester: Or was that just your way of bailing on that thread as quickly as possible before too many people saw it?Oh, would that be the thread in which you encouraged people to stop participating because of "hurtful personal attacks"? Poor baby. No, I quit that thread for two reasons. One, nobody was willing to discuss the topic. All we could argue about was whether or not it was a personal attack, which it wasn't. Secondly, I quit because DVNC asked me to. I think he was wrong in doing so, but because he's a long time friend, I decided to do as he asked. But hey, if you like, I can certainly resurrect it. But only if you're interested in actually discussing the topic. I certainly don't want to go through another "he's attacking me!" whimperfest.

Anyway, I suppose that was mild compared to other slurs I've received on this forum. Where's Johnny Ticklish when you need him, eh drew? :DHe's just a phone call away. I'll be sure to tell him you asked about him! :D

[MrMacphisto]

Since you asked for the opinion of a parent, let me tell you that what you did has no upside. It was wrong on many different levels.

When I have my small children with me, there are only two rules that I abide by to insure the welfare of my kids:

1. Do not place your child, or by your actions, cause your child to be placed in a situation that could be potentially harmful.

2. Do not place yourself in any situation that could remove, or compromise your ability to follow Rule # 1.

What if your head butt would have killed him, caused a seizure, or fractured his skull?
What if all six of them had jumped in the fight?
What if you would have been arrested?
What if you had been killed or seriously injured?
What if one of them pulled a gun, and shot your nephew, or wife by accident?

These are the critical thinking questions that a good parent trains him or herself to ask when confronted with situations such as the one you described.

Your responsibility was to your nephew's safety, and you compromised that responsibility, the second you put yourself in harms way.

Plese be more careful in the future.

Good points. I'll side with Shadow on this one.

[ViperGTS]

What if this happened, what if they did this, what if he pulled one of these. Notice one thing in these sentences: Past Tense.

What's done is done, as Rajee said. Let's look to the future, shall we?

Let me clarify something, since no one seems to have touched on this yet: It was his nephew. That means, it was his family. Given the same situation with a 4 year old that was just some random kid in a bad place, I'm relatively sure that he would have not opted for violence, just to get the kid out of harm's way. I know for a fact that if a family member of mine that was helpless to stop bigger, badder kids from picking on him/her was in a similar situation, heads would be rolling, but if it were just some random kid, I'd play hero and all, but I wouldn't take such drastic actions against the assailants.

Furthermore, I see many valid points in this thread: What lesson did he teach the moron bully? Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps he taught him the wrong lesson. Perhaps he taught him not to pick on small children. What one must realize is that by taking no action, he wouldn't have taught the bully a damned fucking thing. Right, maybe he taught him the wrong thing by headbutting him (I'd have preferred a good punch IMHO), but maybe he taught him the right thing instead of standing by, doing nothing, and letting the kid go on his merry way thinking he could get away with shit like that any time he wanted to.

Violence isn't the answer to all the world's problems. What some of you folks have to figure out is that bully kids today don't give a fuck about what anyone says to them. When I was in elementary school, I was ALWAYS picked on and beat up, for one sole reason: I didn't fight back, and herego, I was labelled as weaker. My mother and my teachers told me, "hey, don't fight back, use words to settle your differences. Talk it out and make friends with the bully, turn him into a nice person."

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT.

Bullies don't listen because they are too ignorant and stuck in their ways to change, so don't even try to say that violence won't work. If you kick the bullie's ass, he isn't going to be so willing to fight again, is he?

Given this point, it makes it seem like there's even less of a chance for the original poster's headbutt to have done any good. But you know what? I bet that little prick will look over his shoulder one more time before he picks on another little child.

[MrPartickler]

Well, since everyone's being opinionated.... lol

I think you overreacted. I also think many might have felt the same way and (possibly) escalated the situation through some other means. We sympathize, but that's not enough. It's the same, in general, with vigilante justice. For example, if, while driving, some jerk recklessly cuts you off. You could be just as upset or more for similar reasons (e.g., they endangered the health & personal safety of you and whomever you're transporting--possibly another family member or s/o). That doesn't mean you should watch where they park, stop, roll your sleeves up, get out and get in their faces...then if they aren't apologetic, you kick some ass. It also doesn't mean if they flip you off, you should follow them home and pick a fight there. Again, others (including myself) may sympathize. Everyone may cheer you if you did. And you may have "taught them a lesson." But it's an overreaction. None of the sympathizers will be around if/when there are consequences. That's when everyone else stands around and accuses you of being a "hothead."

As was said previously, what's done is done. Now for the future....

I think an action can be justified if you are completely willing to accept the possible consequences of it like an adult and not whine about it later. I can think of a few:

Physical Retaliation: There are some street types (teenagers, kids) I grew up with who are the kind who would arm themselves and await the opportunity to seek revenge at some unexpected point in the future. Cowardly, sure? But I don't think they wouldn've cared much--about anything.

Legal Ramifications: I also know the type who are, basically, not really the "tough guys" they seem anyway. Instead they're just rebellious "priviledged" kids who have parents at home who'd intervene--insisting their child was the victim here. After filing a police report for assault, they'd seek civil damages. And here they'd have a case on both counts. I can also recall you mentioning that you workout like a fiend--including boxing several hours a day. That <i>really</i> wouldn't look good to a jury: Boxer brutally assaults teenager.

Ethical Concerns: Another possible consequence is (possibly) inflicting more harm than you'd intended on someone who never even physically threatened or harmed you or your nephew. You probably didn't stick around long enough to tell <i>how</i> hurt you left the kid. (I can't say I blame you.) However, the magnitude of the injury has at least a little to do with how likely any of aforementioned consequences might be. Further, you'd lose most of your moral support/fan base if you were to reveal the guy fell, hit his head and, has some serious, lasting injuries.

Anyway, toneus(?) said it best IMHO. It seems you satisfied a need for revenge rather than one of self-defense or security for your loved ones. However, if you really feel that your actions are justified even weighed against any potential consequences, then I say to hell with what the rest of us think: be proud.

[Redmage]

Let me clarify something, since no one seems to have touched on this yet: It was his nephew. That means, it was his family.Yes, and that certainly makes his actions more understandable. For one of my loved ones, I probably would have done the same thing. But I would acknowledge in retrospect that I was simply acting out of anger - I wouldn't try to justify my actions in the context of some greater good, because I don't I would have been serving any greater good.

Perhaps he taught him the wrong lesson. Perhaps he taught him not to pick on small children. What one must realize is that by taking no action, he wouldn't have taught the bully a damned fucking thing. Right, maybe he taught him the wrong thing by headbutting him (I'd have preferred a good punch IMHO), but maybe he taught him the right thing instead of standing by, doing nothing, and letting the kid go on his merry way thinking he could get away with shit like that any time he wanted to.I'm not sure that it's really a good justification to say, "It might possibly have been better than doing nothing."

Bullies don't listen because they are too ignorant and stuck in their ways to change, so don't even try to say that violence won't work. If you kick the bullie's ass, he isn't going to be so willing to fight again, is he?He isn't going to be so willing to fight you, no. And with a certain narrow perspective, that might be good enough. Protecting yourself is not bad thing. But if your long term goal is to make things safer for those small and weak, I don't see any reason to think that was helpful.

Surely that young man learned not to fight someone bigger than he was - at least, not without a weapon of some sort or a lot of friends who would actually jump in and help him. But chances are he already knew that - german's actions just clarified the pecking order with respect to german himself. Did he learn not to bully when he has someone at a disadvantage? I'm thinking no.

[ViperGTS]

Did he learn not to bully when he has someone at a disadvantage? I'm thinking no.


Perhaps he didn't learn the lesson outright, but like I said, he'll think twice before he does it again. It takes a while for these things to be learnt, and as time goes on, and as he continues to make the same mistake over and over again, he'll get it pounded into his head not to pick on people. Or he won't and he'll go to jail for a violent crime. Or, he won't pick on someone again, for one reason or another, in which case who can say if german did or did not teach him a lesson?

In all cases, we win.

[stloldg]

It’s always amazing me when a bunch of teenagers torment a child, or challenge an adult as if they was grown themselves. But when the adult takes him up on his challenge and treats him like an adult by kicking his butt, it’s the adult that wrong.

Come on people, it’s time to let these kids know that they need to stay in a child place. You can not challenge a adult without repercussions, you can’t pick on someone child without that parent coming after you. Stop depending on the courts to do your job for you.

The boys were out of line messing with a 4 year old boy, than to compile the error they disrespect his uncle when all they had to do was to apologize. When will you take a stand against these type of people when their in your house, raping and beating up your family?

[Icycle]

Punishing is a responsive action to a wrong, in an effort to communicate to the wrongdoer that a similar decision in the future might be worth rethinking.

But painful physical punishment won't teach the lesson that you hope to teach. It will teach the wrongdoer to not get caught, rather than to not do the wrong thing.

No, that's not what I'm telling you. What I'm telling you is that sometimes...not always...but sometimes, an asskicking sends a much clearer message than words do, one that is often remembered for a long, long time.

And the message it sends is that violence is an acceptable response. You are modelling the very behavior you wish to extinguish.

It is a viable tool whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. Your children are not what is being discussed here, but I respectfully suggest that before you make such a decision, you consult with their father.

Ahem! I am her husband, and I agree with and support her 100%. Just like her, I do not wish to raise our children to believe that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems. You should not assume that all men adopt the stereotypical role of emotionally distant disciplinarian. Lindy and I will raise our children together in a nurturing environment.

Well, make that "fathers" in your case.

I guess you haven't been paying attention. If you had read the posts on the polyamory thread you'd know that I'll be the only father in this household.

I disagree. Remember that most bullies are essentially cowards. Let's say those same dipshits move on to another beach. One of them says, "hey, let's pick on that little kid." Quite likely, he'll get a slap upside the head by one of his buddies, probably the one who received the headbutt, who will say, "Have you lost your mind? Are you THAT interested in another asskicking??" The fact that Kust is no longer there doesn't preclude the possibility of another defender of helpless kids. If it happened once, it can and likely will happen again.

But the next morning, waiting at the bus stop, with no adults in sight, I have no doubt those bullies would continue to pick on the little kids. There's no one around to kick their asses, so why should they hold back?

Oh, would that be the thread in which you encouraged people to stop participating because of "hurtful personal attacks"? Poor baby. No, I quit that thread for two reasons. One, nobody was willing to discuss the topic. All we could argue about was whether or not it was a personal attack, which it wasn't. Secondly, I quit because DVNC asked me to. I think he was wrong in doing so, but because he's a long time friend, I decided to do as he asked. But hey, if you like, I can certainly resurrect it. But only if you're interested in actually discussing the topic. I certainly don't want to go through another "he's attacking me!" whimperfest.

Hmmm... are we talking about the same thread? Because I seem to remember lots of positive, supportive discussion on that thread from almost all of the participants. Most people talked about what polyamory is, and what it is not. A few people, including Lindy, even provided us with detailed, heartfelt, first-person descriptions of polyamory, allowing everyone to come to a deeper understanding of a different way to live. I don't recall any whimpering of any kind, and certain not from Lindy!

[Redmage]

It’s always amazing me when a bunch of teenagers torment a child, or challenge an adult as if they was grown themselves. But when the adult takes him up on his challenge and treats him like an adult by kicking his butt, it’s the adult that wrong.Not to me. Relative ages don't have anything to do with the rightness or wrongness of german's actions as he described them. In fact I don't even think this is a moral issue. It's a practical issue. The actions taken won't achieve the goal that they're allegedly aimed at achieving.

The boys were out of line messing with a 4 year old boy, than to compile the error they disrespect his uncle when all they had to do was to apologize.Certainly they were out of line. You can consider that a settled issue. The question is, what are you setting out to accomplish by attacking them? Are you trying to teach them not to bully your specific family when you happen to be around or if they know you're able to find them? If so then what german did MIGHT accomplish that (it might also teach them to find guns before they do it again). But if you're hoping to teach them the larger lesson that what they did was simply wrong, then no, that's not likely to do it.

Take it back to grade school - these boys are still operating in child mode, so that's a good model for understanding their behavior. Let's say a group of 12 or 13 year old boys was tormenting a 5 or 6 year old boy, and a teacher catches them and gives them all a thorough paddling - the old-fashioned kind that you can't give in schools any more. Would that teach them not to bully that little boy?

I think you know it wouldn't. Sure, they want to avoid getting paddled again. But if they really get their kicks from bullying that boy then they're just going to catch him after school or somewhere out of sight of any teacher, and take their frustration out on him then. Anyone who remembers their school days knows how this works.

It's exactly the same when they're 5 years older. Basically, you're simply teaching them to avoid getting caught.

When will you take a stand against these type of people when their in your house, raping and beating up your family?A) They weren't in his house, or even on his property. B) If violence can reasonably stop another act of violence that is either in progress or immediately in the offing, then yes it is an appropriate response IMO. After the fact, though, see above.

[ViperGTS]

ok, so some of us are going "ZOMG VIOLENECE IS WRONG HAHAHA LOLZ!" and some are going "SMACK THE BITCH LIKE A HO".

We're not going to convince each other otherwise.

[Redmage]

ok, so some of us are going "ZOMG VIOLENECE IS WRONG HAHAHA LOLZ!" and some are going "SMACK THE BITCH LIKE A HO".And dont forget the third group - the one that's saying, "You keep using that fist. I do not think it works like you think it works."

We're not going to convince each other otherwise.Still, you're probably right about that.

[MrPartickler]

Hell, I don't think violence is wrong at all in general. It's just a matter of risk vs. reward. There'd be LOTS more violence going on everday of there wasn't a real risk associated with it. IMO, when you're not personally threatened or protecting someone, teaching a**holes "a lesson" with your fists is something you can do if you're a superhero or it's your job somehow. Otherwise, although it might feel good at the time, it's just usually unnecessarily risky and often more trouble than it's really worth.

[drew70]

But painful physical punishment won't teach the lesson that you hope to teach. It will teach the wrongdoer to not get caught, rather than to not do the wrong thing.Perhaps it will teach him both. To not do the wrong thing and therefore avoid getting caught. I've seen it work many times.

And the message it sends is that violence is an acceptable response.Sometimes violence is not only an acceptable response, but a necessary response. Thankfully those times are few and far between, but they do exist.

You are modelling the very behavior you wish to extinguish.Not at all. In this case the behavior I would wish to be extinguished is that of bullying. The behavior I'm modeling is punishing the wrongdoer for his actions. There is a world of difference between bullying and punishing. Bullies are cowards who threaten those weaker then them unprovoked, to get something they want, which could be anything from misplaced satisfaction in exercising dominance, or something more tangible, such as lunch money.

Punishing is a responsive action to a wrong, in an effort to communicate to the wrongdoer that a similar decision in the future might be worth rethinking. So the behaviors of bullying vs punishing are radically different.

Ahem! I am her husband, and I agree with and support her 100%. Yeah, I figured that out back in the polyamory thread. I didn't want to bust you out, though, cause you seem like a pretty nice guy.

Just like her, I do not wish to raise our children to believe that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems. You should not assume that all men adopt the stereotypical role of emotionally distant disciplinarian. Lindy and I will raise our children together in a nurturing environment.That's great. I sincerely wish you the best in that regard. Hopefully your kids will grow up never having to defend themselves from the physical attacks of school bullies.

I guess you haven't been paying attention. If you had read the posts on the polyamory thread you'd know that I'll be the only father in this household.I'll admit that in dealing with all the spamming that went on in that thread, I probably missed a lot of good stuff. Hey wouldn't it be funny if **COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE COMMENTARY REMOVED** LOL. That would be a good skit for SNL or Mad TV, wouldn't you agree?

**MODERATOR INSERTION** Someone hasn't been paying attention, 'cause it's a big fat NO-NO to insult people directly or indirectly. That includes their families. Drew, I read, earlier in this, where despite your disagreement with me concerning acceptable boundaries for discussion and debate on THIS forum, you accepted where I had to ask you to draw a line. I know you're a sharp enough debater to be able to avoid such deliberate and slack insults in a debate. You've points to make, and disagreements, so make 'em, following the form's rules and practices. Want the wild frontier again? AMT's still live, brother. This here's chock full of rules, and it's paining me to have to enforce these with a man I *know* is capable of better debate.

But the next morning, waiting at the bus stop, with no adults in sight, I have no doubt those bullies would continue to pick on the little kids. There's no one around to kick their asses, so why should they hold back?If those kids were 16-17 as german indicated, they would be in high school. It's unlikely that little kids would be hanging around a high school bus stop. And unless that school bus stop is in a tunnel, they can never be sure nobody is watching. Also the kids can report the bullies. The bullies know this and given the asskicking they recently got and the fact that they are cowards, they will more likely opt for a less dangerous means of amusement, rather than risk another asskicking from a parent or an older sibling of any of their would-be victims.

[ViperGTS]

And dont forget the third group - the one that's saying, "You keep using that fist. I do not think it works like you think it works."



Puts you in the first group. ;)

[Redmage]

Puts you in the first group. ;)No, it doesn't. Characterizing what I'm saying with the sort of shocked moral tone you're ascribing is just not accurate.

EDIT: I just thought of a way of looking at this that might change the perspective a bit.

Is anything worth fighting for (and here I mean physical combat) that is not worth dying for?

[ViperGTS]

No, it doesn't. Characterizing what I'm saying with the sort of shocked moral tone you're ascribing is just not accurate.

HINT: Exaggeration. (sp?)

[Redmage]

HINT: Exaggeration. (sp?)Then it's just exaggeration to call a candle a floodlight. Overblown language sometimes leads to talking about something completely different from what one is describing.

In any case, I'd really like to read your thoughts on the question I posted.

[ViperGTS]

Is anything worth fighting for (and here I mean physical combat) that is not worth dying for?

Of course. Very few things are worth losing one's life over, save for family.

And now you're going to play the "What if" card. What if you get in a fight over something menial and they pull a gun? They pull a knife? They happen to know how to kill a man with two fingers? Then I guess you made the wrong decision to fight that person.

Life is about making decisions. Sometimes, we make a decision or two that has a negative repricussion.

Don't you see? This entire thread is about actions and reactions. The idiot teenager took an action against german's nephew. The repricussion was that he got his ass beat.

German decided to kick the teenager's ass. The repricussion was that his forhead probably was a little sore afterwards.

Either way, things could have gone several different ways. This kind of thing happens everywhere, all the time. Is German's nephwer worth fighting, and possibly dying, for? If you ask him, I'm sure he'll tell you that he is. But on the other hand, let's say some pissed off person decided to take out his frustrations on german, and swung at him. Would german fight back? Yes. Is it something worth dying over? No.

I'm probably senselessly rambling. I'll shut up now.

[LindyHopper]

I'll admit that in dealing with all the spamming that went on in that thread, I probably missed a lot of good stuff. Hey wouldn't it be funny if Lindy comes home one day and says, "Honey, guess what! I'm pregnant! We're going to have a baby! The only problem is...well....I think the father is Redmage." :shock: Then after she revives you with cold water to the face, she says, "Honey, I was just kidding!" LOL. That would be a good skit for SNL or Mad TV, wouldn't you agree?
You are completely out of line. Apologize, now.

And I'm changing part of my stance on the how-to-deal-with-a-bully thing. You've convinced me, drew. You can't argue with a moron. Morons are incapable of understanding logic or reason, because they're not actually listening to anything you say. Bullies enjoy fighting. It gives them personal satisfaction to rip on people who are different from them. And no amount of talking is going to change that.

That said, much as I would enjoy taking a baseball bat to said moron's head, that wouldn't fix his bullying behavior either. It would only fuel his anger and desire to continue bullying. And since I actually did something to hurt him, finally, he'd have a right to be angry, and to seek revenge. Not only that, but I would have compromised my moral standards, and sunk to his level. I am a better person than that.

So, from now on, I see bullying, I just walk away. Easier said than done perhaps, and I'm only human, but I will do my best.

[Redmage]

Of course. Very few things are worth losing one's life over, save for family.

And now you're going to play the "What if" card.No, I'm not. I asked that question because I think the answer is obvious, and you saw it yourself: very, very few things are worth dying for.

Here's the thing: Any time we let things come to blows, we are risking death - our death, or someone else's. It's a gamble, and any smart gambler knows that you don't risk more than you're willing to lose, and you CERTAINLY don't risk more than you stand to gain. So before getting into a fight, it pays to ask yourself: Is this matter worth someone's life?

If the answer is "no," then you just don't fight. Period. You walk away, you give the mugger your wallet, whatever. But if it's not worth dying for, then it is not worth fighting for.

Now, if these boys had been threatening german's nephew with violence, that would be worth a fight - IF by fighting you could prevent the violence and keep the child safe. A child's safety is worth dying for.

But the child was already safe. Is it worth fighting then simply to "teach them a lesson?" No. What "lesson" is worth your life? On the other side, does scaring a child really earn a teenager a death sentence?

When you add up the sums, I can't see arriving at any other answer.

[Redmage]

Hey wouldn't it be funny if Lindy comes home one day and says, "Honey, guess what! I'm pregnant! We're going to have a baby! The only problem is...well....I think the father is Redmage."
You are completely out of line. Apologize, now.There comes a point where chattering about matters you know nothing of crosses the line that separates simple stupidity from behavior beyond the pale of civil society.

I can think of at least three people who are due apologies, not counting everyone who had the misfortune to read that drivel.

[ViperGTS]

Mage, I have a kind of "Don't fuck with me" attitude. I admit, it'll probably get me in trouble some day, but I know how to disarm an attacker. If someone wants my wallet, they're going to have to kill me for it, because now their life is going to be on the line. Stupid and immature, I know. I'm too cavalier for my own good.

[dvnc]

Alright... Debate good. Insult bad. It's not complicated.

If ya can't do it with logic, don't do it here, alright?

Thanks,

the management

[BigJim]

Overeacted? Yep, to the point of being illegal. There were two clear ways of dealing with it: walk away or kick the shit out of him. Walking away would have been the more mature thing to do, it would probably never have taught the wanker not to do it again though. I sincerely hope you don't cop any legal payback for it mate, because although it wasn't the adult or legal thing to do, it sure as hell was natural justice.

Good response to the Captain btw Lindy. ;)

[ViperGTS]

I missed something, who insulted who?

[german]

I got a lot respect for people on this forum hence why I asked what they would have done in my situation. I am the first to say I overreacted but giving the chance to go back in time I would of done the exact same thing. Also I am not sure if people realise that I am 20 and not a middle aged man, just to clear that up.

I spoke to my brother about this and his opinion probably means the most to me in this situation. He said he trusted my judgement thats why he would even leave his son in my care, he said in the same position he would of done the same thing to a degree, for me that was enough.

What, if any lesson was learnt by them? I dont know. You can teach a class by reading from a book, writing on a board or interaction; each student is going to react different to each style. A few years ago I was much the same as those 'punks' didn't pick on children but I thought I was bullet proof and it was my brother and his friend sat me down and explained life to me. Now it isn't my place to educate them in life nor does it have anything to do with the issue at hand. But if they learnt something all the better.

Kust

[drew70]

You are completely out of line. Apologize, now.You know, on reflection, I have to agree. That was a completely nauseating scenario that seemed humorous at the time. I can see that you were hurt by it, and more importantly I can understand why, so I do sincerely apologize.

And I'm changing part of my stance on the how-to-deal-with-a-bully thing. You've convinced me, drew. You can't argue with a moron. Morons are incapable of understanding logic or reason, because they're not actually listening to anything you say. Bullies enjoy fighting. It gives them personal satisfaction to rip on people who are different from them. And no amount of talking is going to change that.Well hey, as long as we're slinging out definitions here, I've got a few to throw in the mix. A warrior is somebody who will stand and fight, alone if need be, to defend a noble cause, no matter how outnumbered he is. A coward is someone who will join in attacking a warrior when he's already outnumbered. A spoiled brat is somebody who wants her way all the time. She is adamant about her views and opinions, and when a warrior dares challenge them, she begins her manipulative schemes to garner sympathy and allies, but when the warrior stands fast and refuses to be intimidated, her strategy deteriorates to tantrums and name calling, because she's used to getting her way and doesn't know how to deal when she doesn't. A snob is somebody who believes she's better or smarter then most people and anybody who embraces a different set of values and won't accept hers is labeled as a "moron." Yes, there are plenty of simplistic labels one can bandy about, but people are generally way more complex to accurately fit such generalities.

That said, much as I would enjoy taking a baseball bat to said moron's head, that wouldn't fix his bullying behavior either. It would only fuel his anger and desire to continue bullying. And since I actually did something to hurt him, finally, he'd have a right to be angry, and to seek revenge. Not only that, but I would have compromised my moral standards, and sunk to his level. I am a better person than that.Perhaps this hypothetical "bully" of whom you speak is not a bully at all, but rather a warrior, who tells you the truths you may not wish to hear. Labeling him as a "bully" allows you to disregard his words and absolves you of any obligation to consider any truth in them.

So, from now on, I see bullying, I just walk away.You can walk away from the warrior, but you can't walk away from the truth. It follows you no matter how evasive you are and eventually catches up with you.

Easier said than done perhaps, and I'm only human, but I will do my best.Hey, some actual humility! It's a start. ;)

[LindyHopper]

Nice try, drew. Walking away. ;)

[stloldg]

Here in St. Louis, we just had an incident where a 7 yo boy was beating badly by a 17 yo for no reason. The 17 yo didn't know the 7 yo he beaten he did it for the fun of it. The boy face and head is swollen and he can bearly see out of both eyes.

If this guy don't need his ass kick than I don't know who does. :ranty: :Grrr:

[dvnc]

Viper - reread the thread. The whole thread.

Drew70, if humility is good, adopt it. Do it soon. Your behavior in this is not a warrior's behavior. You're not defending anyone. You're posturing. This thread is a perspective thread. Everyone has one. Your stance, like mine, reflects viewpoint.

Your delivery is offending me, sir. I already cleaned up one offense that crossed the line. I'm losing respect for you due to this thread and a previous one. You used to handle this stuff better. I'm not appreciating your handling of this, and my in-box has others with similar perspective.

Please focus your genderal pronoun usage to generic when you wish to make a general statement. In English, that's a masculine pronoun. Feminine shows your "warrior" picking a fight with someone's wife. Not terribly manly, brave, bold, or respectable.

This is, mind you, my perspective, phrased in such a fashion as to indicate such. If it confuses you, and you wish to address it line-by-line instead of grasping the topic and addressing it directly, do feel free to play that. My point here is made, and I have every intent of seeing you understand it. That's what friends do when seeing their own go wide of dignified. There is no dignity in what you're doing to that woman in this thread. It's not a warrior's stance.

[BigJim]

Well hey, as long as we're slinging out definitions here, I've got a few to throw in the mix. A warrior is somebody who will stand and fight, alone if need be, to defend a noble cause, no matter how outnumbered he is. A coward is someone who will join in attacking a warrior when he's already outnumbered. A spoiled brat is somebody who wants her way all the time. She is adamant about her views and opinions, and when a warrior dares challenge them, she begins her manipulative schemes to garner sympathy and allies, but when the warrior stands fast and refuses to be intimidated, her strategy deteriorates to tantrums and name calling, because she's used to getting her way and doesn't know how to deal when she doesn't. A snob is somebody who believes she's better or smarter then most people and anybody who embraces a different set of values and won't accept hers is labeled as a "moron." Yes, there are plenty of simplistic labels one can bandy about, but people are generally way more complex to accurately fit such generalities.

Perhaps this hypothetical "bully" of whom you speak is not a bully at all, but rather a warrior, who tells you the truths you may not wish to hear. Labeling him as a "bully" allows you to disregard his words and absolves you of any obligation to consider any truth in them.

You can walk away from the warrior, but you can't walk away from the truth. It follows you no matter how evasive you are and eventually catches up with you.

Hey, some actual humility! It's a start. ;)



Someone (www.ultimatewarrior.com) you would probably have a lot of time for Captain, even if he is a bit of a liberal. :D