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Google Stalking Thread on General Nuked?

Icycle

TMF Master
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Apr 21, 2006
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Over the last few days I have been actively participating in a thread on the General forum titled something like "Google.com good for stalkers" or something similar. There has been a lot of thoughtful, interesting discussion. Some of it was a bit heated, but there didn't seem to be any personal attacks or other Golden Rule violations that I was aware of, at least as of the last time I was able to check. There was one troll on the thread (who appears to have posted 58 times, yet only has 4 posts left visible), but people were either ignoring him, or responding constructively rather than flaming. Many people considered this thread to be a good public service announcement.

When I went to check on the state of the thread this afternoon, I couldn't find it anywhere, and I noticed that my posting history no longer lists my posts from this thread. I am forced to conclude that the entire thread was deleted.

I understand that being a moderator is a hard, underappreciated job, but I really feel like nuking this whole thread was a bad choice. A lot of people put a lot of thought and energy into what was generally a very fruitful discussion. I never saw anything that was worth reporting to the mods. Had I seen anything, I would have reported it as soon as I saw it, so the offending posts could be excised without removing the whole thread. I have been bitten in the past, where a thread I was participating in got removed because things got out of hand before the mods got involved. As nearly as I could tell, that wasn't the case, at least as of last night. And even if things got out of control in the last 12 hours, surely it would have been better to delete the offending posts of the last twelve hours rather than removing all the thought, emotion, and energy that people have been pouring into that thread over most of the last week.

Mods, please, please, please!!! think twice, or even three or four times before deleting an entire thread! This is not the first time I have been in a thread that got deleted by the mods. Each time it happens it is incredibly frustrating and annoying. I and others put a lot of time and thought into our posts, and it is very shocking for it to all disappear without a trace. When a thread is deleted, there isn't even a headstone left behind that says the thread once was there, or why it got deleted.

Was it something that I dismissed as unimportant that I should have reported to a mod? I don't know and have no way of knowing for future reference.
 
i'm in total agreement with this...that thread might have helped many people, and yes it did get heated...but damn there were some thought provoking posts there...a few mine..lol..this deleteing entire threads is getting a bit redundant...although i can't really complain, as a p&r entire thread was deleted, and that was partially my fault....partially i say...and still the entire thread should never have been deleted..i had even offered to clean it up myself...
 
I started the thread, and it did get heated like everyones saying. I did read every post in the thread as well, and even though a few got upset and used language they shouldn't have I did learn a lot of useful information from them. But I'm not quiet sure who you were refering to as the troll.
 
I've got to weigh in on this, because I'm frustrated, too. People disagreed on the topic, but I thought all but one of them did so in a constructive, polite, and thoughtful way.

I would appreciate an explanation for the moderator's decision. From my perspective, only one of two things (possibly both) could have happened here:

1) Requesting to have the thread deleted was a way for one side of this argument to silence the other. Requesting moderator intervention becomes a way to torch the land once debate is lost.

2) The troll won. At least half a dozen people with lengthy histories of worthwhile posting got their contributions deleted because one newbie couldn't follow the rules of civil discussion.

I really don't like the implications of this. The ones I see are:

1) Authentic discussion is discouraged. If a thread with all the polite and worthwhile discussion that was taking place on this thread could be deleted in its entirety, that suggests that we should avoid any expression of a divergent point of view. If a person who doesn't like what you have to say can get it deleted, then what's the point?

2) Reporting of problem posts is discouraged. There are a couple of posts in the current thread about youth and sexual responsbility that I think contain clear Golden Rule violations, but I certainly don't want to be responsible for that entire thread being deleted just because one of the usual troublemakers couldn't stay to the proper side of civil.

BTW, didn't we used to have a "Report Post" button? If the only way to report a problem post now is to report the thread, that's certainly would tend to lead to deleting the entire thread rather than pinpointing the source of the problem.

I really do appreciate everything you moderators do to keep this forum running. Still, I simply can't let this call go in silence - I think it deserves an explanation. Thank you for your time.
 
alwayssilver said:
But I'm not quiet sure who you were refering to as the troll.

I don't want to name names, because I don't want to violate any rules, but there was at least one prolific poster in the thread who was constantly attacking Redmage, and at one point, after a rapid fire exchange between this person and Redmage, after about a 15 minute pause, this person posted something like "So Redmage, you haven't got anything else to say then? You must not be able to respond to what I've said."
 
I read what everyone said, but even though the poster you refer to did get loud, he did make several great points. And like you said they ignored that poster, but honestly that wasn't true, he was quoted several times. And not everyone disagreed with what he was saying. He got loud yes. He used foul language. But he wasn't entirely wrong in what he was saying.

This is what I agreed with.

(You can't determine the safety of your children based on numbers, and statistics.)

And I did notice Redmage called the youtube clip a fairytale. Whether or not the validity of the clip itself was real or not, doesn’t' make the occurrence inaccurate.

Oh and Someone said you can't trust the media or something like that for valid information concerning the well being of our children, than someone said we can't trust our brains because we are ill equipped to determine whether or not a situation poses a threat.

And lastly I feel that posters heart was in the right place. And I just think he needs to breath more when posting.
 
LindyHopper said:
1) Requesting to have the thread deleted was a way for one side of this argument to silence the other. Requesting moderator intervention becomes a way to torch the land once debate is lost.
I don't think this was it. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) only the original poster of a thread can request to have the whole thing nuked. It appears from his post here that Alwayssilver didn't do that. Of course it's possible that I'm wrong about that policy, but I'd have bet money that only the OP can ask to have an entire thread deleted.

I'd be interested to know the mods' reasoning on this as well.
 
Oh I'd also like to mention that the thread started out rocky in the beginning too. Again not mentioning names, but the sarcasm directed at my thread did sort of cheese me off a little. But I regained my cool.
 
Redmage said:
I don't think this was it. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) only the original poster of a thread can request to have the whole thing nuked. It appears from his post here that Alwayssilver didn't do that. Of course it's possible that I'm wrong about that policy, but I'd have bet money that only the OP can ask to have an entire thread deleted.

I'd be interested to know the mods' reasoning on this as well.

No I was offline when it got deleted.
 
alwayssilver said:
I read what everyone said, but even though the poster you refer to did get loud, he did make several great points.

And lastly I feel that posters heart was in the right place. And I just think he needs to breath more when posting.

I don't call him a troll because I dispute the validity of his arguments, but simply because the tone and style of his postings seemed to be intentionally provocative, seemly intended to incite a flamewar. Some people are intentionally trolls because they get a kick out of sowing discontent. Others are unintentional trolls because their posting style simply comes across as inflamatory or confrontational.
 
alwayssilver said:
And I did notice Redmage called the youtube clip a fairytale. Whether or not the validity of the clip itself was real or not, doesn’t' make the occurrence inaccurate.
As far as I know, calling the clip a fairy tale (which I still think it is) isn't a personal attack.

But, just to clarify, my point there was that Cid presented it as though it proved his point, and it simply didn't. There was no indication that it was anything other than fiction. Yet as I said in another post even if every word of it was true, it no more demonstrated the scope of the problem than CSI demonstrates how often people are killed in fetish clubs.

Accepting this sort of media dramatization as "proof" is exactly the sort of thing I was pointing to when I said that people were letting fictional accounts and anecdotal evidence overwhelm their critical thinking skills.

But, I don't want to rehash the whole thread here. I'm still curious to know why it was deleted. Even the posts I disagreed with deserved better than that.
 
Redmage said:
As far as I know, calling the clip a fairy tale (which I still think it is) isn't a personal attack.

But, just to clarify, my point there was that Cid presented it as though it proved his point, and it simply didn't. There was no indication that it was anything other than fiction. Yet as I said in another post even if every word of it was true, it no more demonstrated the scope of the problem than CSI demonstrates how often people are killed in fetish clubs.

Accepting this sort of media dramatization as "proof" is exactly the sort of thing I was pointing to when I said that people were letting fictional accounts and anecdotal evidence overwhelm their critical thinking skills.

But, I don't want to rehash the whole thread here. I'm still curious to know why it was deleted. Even the posts I disagreed with deserved better than that.

But just because you believe it wasn't real doesn't make the actual incident untrue. I notice you compared the seriousness of the topic to CSI, and you compared the abductions to being struck by lightning, I think this argument deserves better than that. I agree with what Cid said, just because the statistics say your more likely to be abducted from someone you know offline, doesn't mean being abducted online isn't a serious problem. I too saw the program where people naked walked into a house expecting to see a 16 year old girl.

Anyways that’s my two cents. I have things to do, E-Zines to write. I’m glad I could help some out with my thread! Take care!
 
Well well! I'm thinking about starting a fan club. Compared to the people who PM me agreeing with what I'm saying, next to the people who don't agree... well... lol... What's the point of comparing. People see your posts telling them, parents, what someone who doesn't have kids considers a problem for their children. Well now I'm calm. I'm taking several deep breaths.

BUT!

I wasn't the only one using naughty words. So if you want to point fingers at the trouble causers I suggest you stand in front of a mirror while doing it. I'm not the only one who caused that thread to be deleted, we ALL played a part in that.

Oh and incase anyones curious I'm 25% newbie, and 3% troll. I say what people wish they had the nerve to say.
 
Oh and Icycle if everyone was ignoring what I was saying than why is it I'm on everyones mind? Am I just THAT popular?
 
LindyHopper said:
I've got to weigh in on this, because I'm frustrated, too. People disagreed on the topic, but I thought all but one of them did so in a constructive, polite, and thoughtful way.

I would appreciate an explanation for the moderator's decision. From my perspective, only one of two things (possibly both) could have happened here:

1) Requesting to have the thread deleted was a way for one side of this argument to silence the other. Requesting moderator intervention becomes a way to torch the land once debate is lost.

2) The troll won. At least half a dozen people with lengthy histories of worthwhile posting got their contributions deleted because one newbie couldn't follow the rules of civil discussion.

I really don't like the implications of this. The ones I see are:

1) Authentic discussion is discouraged. If a thread with all the polite and worthwhile discussion that was taking place on this thread could be deleted in its entirety, that suggests that we should avoid any expression of a divergent point of view. If a person who doesn't like what you have to say can get it deleted, then what's the point?

2) Reporting of problem posts is discouraged. There are a couple of posts in the current thread about youth and sexual responsbility that I think contain clear Golden Rule violations, but I certainly don't want to be responsible for that entire thread being deleted just because one of the usual troublemakers couldn't stay to the proper side of civil.

BTW, didn't we used to have a "Report Post" button? If the only way to report a problem post now is to report the thread, that's certainly would tend to lead to deleting the entire thread rather than pinpointing the source of the problem.

I really do appreciate everything you moderators do to keep this forum running. Still, I simply can't let this call go in silence - I think it deserves an explanation. Thank you for your time.

My aim wasn't to get this topic deleted, only to inform and express my opinion. I WON the moment I opened my mouth, I WON the moment I spoke my mind, and I WON when I didn't back down.
 
Cid said:
My aim wasn't to get this topic deleted, only to inform and express my opinion. I WON the moment I opened my mouth, I WON the moment I spoke my mind, and I WON when I didn't back down.

i agree with you..you were winning the argument..some people just won't admit when they are wrong...i always admit when i'm wrong..
 
LOL This thread will get deleted too.

I hold my hands up to getting annoyed with certain posts and posters because I felt patronised. If I feel that someone is patronising me it's like showing red to a bull. Maybe no one intentionally patronised me, I don't know but that is the way I felt.

It's not very nice to call someone a troll just because they speak their mind or have an opinion which differs to yours.

Lets all move onto another thread, maybe we'll agree on something there. I don't hold any grudges. I have nothing against anyone on that thread. I hope no one has anything against me either.
 
aun_existe_amor said:
LOL This thread will get deleted too.
Sigh... I fear that may be true.

aun_existe_amor said:
I hold my hands up to getting annoyed with certain posts and posters because I felt patronised. If I feel that someone is patronising me it's like showing red to a bull. Maybe no one intentionally patronised me, I don't know but that is the way I felt.
I can't speak for everyone on that thread, but I'm pretty certain that Lindy, Redmage, and I were not intending to patronize you. I respect your feelings on that matter, but I really think that wasn't our intent.

aun_existe_amor said:
It's not very nice to call someone a troll just because they speak their mind or have an opinion which differs to yours.
It was meant as an observation, not an insult. I was using in the Internet sense, not the monster under the bridge sense. To quote the jargonfile, a troll is someone who "regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks...for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion." It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with their opinion, but rather it has to do with posting in a style and tone that seems to be intentionally inflamatory and confrontational. For example, without naming names, there are people here on the TMF P&R forum whose politics I agree with, but who I would call trolls.

aun_existe_amor said:
Lets all move onto another thread, maybe we'll agree on something there. I don't hold any grudges. I have nothing against anyone on that thread. I hope no one has anything against me either.
I can assure you that I hold nothing against you or anyone on the old thread. I didn't intend to start this thread as a forum for rehashing the arguments, disagreements, and personality conflicts of the previous thread. I was hoping to discuss the greater problem of entire threads getting deleted by the moderators.

I would still be very interested in know why the entire thread was deleted. Many of us, including you aun_existe_amor, put a lot thought and time into our postings on that thread, and now it is all gone. We may not be able to bring that thread back, and it might even be advisable to do so, as tempers still seem to be running hot. But it would be very good to understand what happened here so we can avoid having it happen again. I've been on one too many deleted threads.

What happened on that thread that was so terrible that it required the nuclear option? Or was it simply easier to nuke the whole thread than tease out a few inflamatory comments here and there? Should we really throw away the 95% good content with the 5% bad? Do the mods really want us to report to them every single comment that might possibly be taken the wrong way by someone? But if by doing so, are we simply risking another entirely deleted thread? Do we need to recurit a few more mods to spread the work around a little bit? Can the mods consider less drastic actions, like temporarily locking the thread or warning or locking users who are causing problems?
 
The way you descibe trolls, I'd say that Viper was one on that thread. If it was deleted because of a troll, I'd say he was it. I doubt that is the reason it was deleted though.
 
The thread was reported by numerous forum members within a very short amount of time. I was the only moderator online when they came in, and I only had a short window to deal with it before having to leave the house. The final page of the thread alone when I took it down was filled with flaming and cussing and insults being thrown in every direction, and very little actual discussion was taking place at that time. I felt something had to be done quickly before it escalated even further out of control, and a full edit to the entire thread would have taken a considerable amount of time which I did not have when I reached it. So I pulled it down and left it to be discussed among the staff on what the best way to handle the thread would be. Not enough of the staff has been able to weigh in just yet, so nothing had been done with it yet.

If many of you truly feel the thread was of merit and a good discussion was taking place, I will go in and edit out all posts containing flames and heated attacks and then return it to the general discussion forum. If I do so, however, and it begins to fill up once more with the same cuss filled garbage that I yanked it for this morning, I will take it down again without question and will not be returning it. I suggest those of you who were unable to control yourselves from spewing flames across the thread the first time around gain better control of your tempers and learn to debate with a bit more tact this time around for the benefit of all involved in the discussion.
 
Mimi said:
If many of you truly feel the thread was of merit and a good discussion was taking place, I will go in and edit out all posts containing flames and heated attacks and then return it to the general discussion forum.
I think the thread had merit and I saw many people making good points. I saw only a couple insults the last time I looked at it.

Removing random flames may be a good idea. But if you edit out all the heated attacks, then the thread will lose context. Many sensible things were said in response to such posts, and that sense will be damaged if such posts are removed.

Also, a mean post, though it can upset the reader for a moment, does no lasting harm. In some sense it's actually beneficial because it warns us which people are meanspirited and allows us to use the ignore feature of the bulletin board if we wish. If the posts are removed from public view that information is lost. The people who said the very worst things have it stricken from their record, so to speak, with no consequences. And the ignore feature is rendered useless.

Why would the people who reported the thread not simply have ignored the users whose posts they found offensive?
 
As Mimi has stated, there are times when a very large thread cannot be edited on the spot, either because of time or questions that require the whole Staff.

Let me make a couple of things clear. We do not pull threads just because people are arguing in them. If that's what anyone is going to try and do to get a thread removed, it's not going to work. And, it's going to make the Mods look very closely at you when you are involved in long threads. (Not directed at anyone in particular here, just a statement of fact.)

Second thing. We seem to have this discussion every time a long thread does get pulled for one reason or another. We say the same things, we explain the same policies, and then have to do it all over again the next time. Those of you who have been around for awhile know the drill. We Mods are few. The Forum is very large. Our time is often limited. We make mistakes. (I'm not saying a mistake was made in this instance, far from it. What was done was done for good reason.)

The topic of large threads with flaming in them being removed gets revisited quite often. Here's the bottom line. If it benefits the Forum as a whole to have something like that removed (and this is after all other avenues have been exhausted), it simply has to be that way. In this instance, didn't those who were involved in the thread get just about everything they were going to get out of it? It seemed to be about six or seven people involved. Out of the whole Forum. Yes, it was initially beneficial...and I think the benefit exhausted itself once the "Fuck You"s started flying.

We will always try to do the best we can when it comes to leaving threads intact. But, we will never discourage people from reporting posts they feel need Moderator attention, as some have suggested in one way or another. This allows the community to help police itself when our small numbers are occasionaly overwhelmed. If you look at the boards across the Internet, I think we do a pretty good job of balancing Forum control with member freedoms. And regardless of what people may tell you, it's a constant fine line to walk.
 
I have a techinal question for the moderators: When temporarily or permanently removing a thread, is it possible to at least put a placeholder that says something like "This thread has been temporarily removed due to abusive content"? It would be a bit friendlier than simply having the thread disappear without explanation.
 
Mimi said:
The thread was reported by numerous forum members within a very short amount of time. I was the only moderator online when they came in, and I only had a short window to deal with it before having to leave the house. The final page of the thread alone when I took it down was filled with flaming and cussing and insults being thrown in every direction, and very little actual discussion was taking place at that time. I felt something had to be done quickly before it escalated even further out of control, and a full edit to the entire thread would have taken a considerable amount of time which I did not have when I reached it. So I pulled it down and left it to be discussed among the staff on what the best way to handle the thread would be. Not enough of the staff has been able to weigh in just yet, so nothing had been done with it yet.

Mimi, thank you for the explanation. I do understand that being a moderator is a tough job, with so much to do and so few moderators.

It sounds like during the 12 hours so that I was gone from the thread things had escalated dramatically to point that things and devolved into cussing, insults, and profanity with no more constructive dialogue and discussion. That is why I was so confused and upset. When I left, things were interesting and on a low simmer, and I when I came back, the thread was simply gone without explanation.

Mimi said:
If many of you truly feel the thread was of merit and a good discussion was taking place, I will go in and edit out all posts containing flames and heated attacks and then return it to the general discussion forum. If I do so, however, and it begins to fill up once more with the same cuss filled garbage that I yanked it for this morning, I will take it down again without question and will not be returning it. I suggest those of you who were unable to control yourselves from spewing flames across the thread the first time around gain better control of your tempers and learn to debate with a bit more tact this time around for the benefit of all involved in the discussion.
I do strongly feel like there was a significant amount of quality content and discussion in the thread, and that the quality content on both sides outweighed the flames and insults. I would hate to see all of the hard work and thoughts of those people simply disappear forever.

However, I'm not sure how much more new productive discussion was going to come out of that thread. Sometimes I am surprised by how much discussion can be squeezed out of a thread though. In this case, I see even from postings in this thread that tempers might still be running kind of hot, and the the other thread might be at risk of decending back into a flame war.

Perhaps as a compromise, we could bring the thread back, with the offending posts from this morning removed, but have the thread locked against new posts. Then people can still benefit from reading what people already had to say, people's posting history is preserved, and everyone's hard work and thoughts are not wasted.
 
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