Bullying in America

Dear American friends,

I was reading this post earlier:

http://www.ticklingforum.com/showth...tally-Disabled-Man-on-Facebook-Live-Broadcast

Also numerous articles on the Cheat Sheet:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/money-car...ans-are-leaving-the-workforce.html/?a=viewall

http://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/how-to-deal-with-workplace-bullying.html/

And last but not least, a significant number of people here have confessed to having been bullied at school, at work and even within their families or friends' circle.

To be honest, I am sure that bullying exists in every society. I can say that I have witnessed some of it at different stages of my life, both in France and in China. However, I am under the impression that the problem may be somewhat more serious in the USA. Please do not hesitate to tell me if you think I am wrong, but after looking into this seriously, I started to notice details and patterns.

This comes as a surprise to me in a way, because Americans are some of the friendliest people I know (tied with Canadians). My American colleagues are simply adorable, warm and open-minded people who are always available for a good drink and generally more "relaxed" than my fellow French who can come off as a little bit "cold" or "stuck up" at times. Me included. As such, I always tended to believe that Americans tend to treat each other nicely.

Yet, I've been looking into this for a couple of months, and been finding out that a lot of you are complaining about bullying. There are hell of a lot of stories out there, of children driven to suicide, workers being harassed by colleagues to the point of quitting, and absolutely horrifying "hazings". Really a lot, and more disturbing than anything I have read from my own country.

Well, maybe I am just giving too much importance to something marginal, overblown by the Internet and the physical distance between me and Uncle Sam. But I want to ask you: do you think that bullying may be a more serious problem in the USA than in other countries? Have you experienced/witnessed some of it, and have you been disturbed/affected by it? If you think the problem may be more serious in the US, what do you think is the cause of it? A colleague of mine, an esteemed professor, says he believes that the issue may be exacerbated by the American competitive mindset. Some sort of Darwinian approach to society, coupled with the desire, bred from an early age on in every American, to prove him/herself better than his neighbor.

Maybe he is right. However I disagree with him on at least one point: bullying is not the triumph of the strong against the weak; it is rather the opposite in my opinion. Ganging up on someone, or abusing of a position/edge you may have on someone is actually a display of weakness, and the product of a deeply perverse thought-process.

Anyway, your contributions are welcome. If you can recommend any book on the matter (books about American society, mentality, etc...) I would also appreciate.

Can you explain what patterns youve noticed to make you think bullying is worse here? Id also be interested in any statistics about bullying abroad.

I was bullied more by family members than schoolmates or coworkers lol

its sad this crap goes on..i was bullied all through school..it was hell for me and i dont want to see others go through that

In my experience as someone still pretty young, the biggest issue with bullying is that it has evolved, but the attempts to prevent it have not.

People hear "bully" and they think of Scut Farkas from A Christmas Story, where they just corner and beat up other kids with zero consequences, but that's hard to do now. Teachers are, in general, way more aware, and a lot of schools even have police officers on the grounds. That's not even taking into account how much surveillance tech there is now, my high school had security cameras in pretty much every hallway. So bullying didn't die out, it just got harder to see.

I was never really bullied, I had the luxury of being pretty well liked in school, but I had friends that were, and it can be a really devious process. Kids are rarely as stupid as we assume they are. For example, in high school, I had a friend who had a lot of trouble fitting in socially. He was awkward and pretty scrawny. So another guy would come up to him and pretend to talk to him, but everytime he said something awkward or slightly goofy, the bully would repeat it back to his friends, and they'd all start laughing at him. When my friend asked why, they told him it was because he had just made a good joke or whatever, but they were mocking him. They'd mimic his nervous tic when he turned his back, they'd give him "compliments" that were really just insults, but couldn't really be punished as such. In essence, they bullied him by making him think he had friends, and then eventually revealing their game and totally crushing him. And there was fuck all the school could do about it, because as far as they could see, they were his friends! Emotional and mental abuse is way harder to see than physical, because it doesn't leave any marks. Even after he finally realized what they were doing, I'd still sometimes see one of them approach him in class and say "Hey buddy!", or something like that, with all of their friends snickering across the room. He'd tell them to go away, they'd pretend to be hurt by it, and again, there was jackshit the school could do, because there was zero proof.

And that's just what I saw happen to one guy. I don't doubt at all that people still get physical, or that there are a lot of other ways to bully someone emotionally that go on at our schools. I don't think it's something isolated to America either, I'm sure this shit happens everywhere. It's so much harder to detect now, though.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I still did see some physical bullying, just mostly in locker rooms and places without cameras.

Well, I am no sociologist, so my access and ability to process sociological or medical data is very limited. So just like any regular guy my only source of info are the Internet and "human sources"...like yourselves

I find it significant that all 50 US states have passed legislation on bullying. When the legislative powers go as far as write, debate and put to vote a law, it means that they consider the problem with the utmost seriousness. According to US-based watchdog organization Bully Police, some states like Virginia or Texas have even revised these laws by toughening them. Which means that either they are big vote winners (which I doubt), or bullying has reached such a magnitude that the intervention of the law is perceived as necessary. http://www.bullypolice.org/

According to a 2004 US poll, 48% of children confess having been bullied during school. It sounds like an awfully big number to me. Broadly speaking, one child out of two? And even if it is only a perception (everyone has some sort of bad memory attached to school), I am certain that in France the numbers would be much lower.

I also find significant that so many people are talking about it. Harvard has created a foundation to tackle the problem; I know because I met some members of "Harvard Alumini Association whatever" during a gala in Beijing. At the time, they had launched an initiative against bullying with the woman who sings "poker face" (it was a big hit in France) as their main sponsor and spokesperson. Bullying is also the subject of countless American fictions and literature works. Even a goddamn video game!

It does not seem to be restricted to school either, judging by the articles I find every day on my favorite career development websites (links above), or NPR's great analysis of Wells Fargo's "management techniques" (see: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/10/07/497084491/episode-728-the-wells-fargo-hustle, and http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/10/28/499805238/episode-732-bad-form-wells-fargo)

EDIT: additional interesting statistics in here: http://www.workplacebullying.org/wbiresearch/2010-wbi-national-survey/

Now onto the comparison:

In France, there is no such thing as a law against bullying. The worst that can befall a bully is to be expelled from his school, not go before a judge. We do have laws against hazing however, yet their passing was very controversial because a lot of schools complained that the State was "attacking their traditions". At this point, I would like to point out that we do not have, in French, a word for the concept of "bullying". We talk about "teasing" for minor infractions and "harassment" in worse cases, but IMO both terms fail to describe what "bullying" really means in English. Maybe that means the problem is underestimated in my country, which could explain why I have the impression that the problem is more serious in the USA.

In my country, the worst cases of bullying occur at the workplace, and are explained, paradoxically, by our ultra-protective social security system. Since management has no legal means of firing an employee (whether good or bad) after they have achieved a certain seniority, they try to drive them crazy through perverse methods of harassment that supposedly will make them quit. Some workers have committed suicide, one of them a few years ago even immolated himself on the parking lot of his company. http://www.france24.com/en/20110426-france-telecom-orange-self-immolation-suicide-wave-worker-stress

There was a WHO report published a while ago that I cannot retrieve at the moment which showed statistics on bullying in Europe. The worst country was Greenland if memory serves me right, and the best was Sweden. I don't know where the US rank on there, since the report was focusing on Europe.

The worst cases of hazing (IMO a form of bullying, no matter what bullshit the participants say about freewill) I have heard of come from Russia. Their army is a grinding machine for new recruits, much worse than the horror stories you may have heard about the US Marines and such. New recruits regularly die, or end up permanently disabled. I am sorry this is a Wikipedia link, but it is the only English-language source I have at hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina

Finally, the patterns I was referring to were cultural. I remember having to explain to my girlfriend what "hazing" was after we watched an episode of Lie to Me, because she had no clue. I struggled like hell to find a Chinese word for it, if you wanna know. Aside from the army, there is no hazing culture in China, at least not in any university I have been to (and I visited more than a few of them). Also, in America, there is a whole culture of "pranking" and teasing among friends/family which is virtually inexistent in France. I had no idea what a "wedgie" was until I watched a generic American high school drama, for instance. Granted, I understand that there can be a degree of innocence between children or family members, and that a prank is not necessarily mean by nature. But I wonder if there could be a link somehow.

Please understand, I am not pointing my finger at anyone. I am a sucker for everything American (British too, to a significant extent), and I do not mean to judge. But I have been hearing so much about bullying lately from the US that I am simply wondering what you guys think about that. I think the TMF is a great place for sharing this, because it gathers a significant number of open-minded Americans, it is relatively anonymous, and it is safe. I'd be curious to hear your personal experiences, too if that is okay. Or you can just dismiss it as another rambling from the "weird foreigner" sitting in the corner

Everything in America is amplified and sensationalized which is something you have to take into consideration. Not to mention propaganda and literally fake news (look up The Knockout Game hoax)

A big problem to me is cyber bullying because its pretty hard to go after someone legally when its online or the bully is from another state.

We also have video games about stealing cars and whatnot, so dunno what indication that is of anything.

As far as I know, only half the states have anti bullying laws.

And apparently, China has a "bullying epidemic" as well

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...ullying/index.html?client=ms-android-boost-us

A few months ago, there were some deaths attributed ro bullying in France

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37505349

As someone who's endured significant bullying during his childhood and adolescence and well into his adult and working life (grateful for the attention paid to that last aspect here), I thank you, Tenebrae, for initiating this discussion and everyone who's contributed.

Tenebrae said:

If you think the problem may be more serious in the US, what do you think is the cause of it?

Click to expand...

I'm uncertain as to whether the occurrence of bullying is any worse here in the U.S., but rather it may just be that, as you and others have pointed out, the subject receives more attention for various reasons and consequently there's more public pressure to enact laws and other protections against it. But if there is anything about the American character, as abstract as that may be, that can be argued to foster bullying, it may be that unique among all the nations in the world (and I cringe to think I might be overlooking one thereby invalidating my choice of the word unique), the United States was founded on very egalitarian grounds, i.e., the F/founders specifically rejected the idea of a nobility and aristocratic hierarchy based on bloodlines alone. And perhaps that proved to be an overly idealistic and unnatural social structure to impose on any country that happens to be composed entirely of contemporary specimens of Homo sapiens. As you mentioned,

A colleague of mine, an esteemed professor, says he believes that the issue may be exacerbated by the American competitive mindset. Some sort of Darwinian approach to society, coupled with the desire, bred from an early age on in every American, to prove him/herself better than his neighbor.

Click to expand...

So yes, because our only "aristocracies" are those of wealth and/or talent/accomplishment, perhaps as Americans we sense more acutely that natural urge to "put people in their place" to help ourselves feel more secure, a yen that excessive bullying might help satiate to some extent.

Tenebrae said:

At this point, I would like to point out that we do not have, in French, a word for the concept of "bullying". We talk about "teasing" for minor infractions and "harassment" in worse cases, but IMO both terms fail to describe what "bullying" really means in English. Maybe that means the problem is underestimated in my country, which could explain why I have the impression that the problem is more serious in the USA.

Click to expand...

It's interesting that in French Canada, whose culture is of course influenced not just by France as the "mother country" but also by the majority Anglophone Canada and the 800-lb. North American cultural gorilla that is the U.S., there is a word for 'bullying' and it's l'intimidation. Indeed, the Canadian federal government devotes a bilingual (naturally) Web page to the topic.

Tenebrae said:

I think the TMF is a great place for sharing this, because it gathers a significant number of open-minded Americans, it is relatively anonymous, and it is safe.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, that alone keeps me coming back, for sure.

http://www.latitudenews.com/story/what-country-has-the-most-bullies/

Looks like US is not the worst country for bullying. Perhaps because we have states (and many schools) with a zero tolerance policy now

chicago said:

http://www.latitudenews.com/story/what-country-has-the-most-bullies/
Looks like US is not the worst country for bullying. Perhaps because we have states (and many schools) with a zero tolerance policy now

Click to expand...

Wow. That certainly puts things in perspective.

Zero tolerance policies are proven to be detrimental to society and putting young adults and children in the criminal justice system will not only ruin lives but create a new generation of hardened criminals. I like Western Europe and Australia's approach. Treating it as a social and educational problem rather than as a criminal act.

As for experiencing bullying myself, I endured a great deal of it being a thin geeky kid into science fiction, super heroes, and other such stuff. There were three specific bullies who tried to make my life in middle school / high school an utter and complete hell but eventually I started getting bigger and more muscular and they eventually backed down and eventually flunked out before I became a senior. My sister on the other hand (who is lesbian and married to a tickle theater goer [aka Rox_My_Sox]) endured far worse than I did though thankfully by the time I entered 10th grade I was big enough that I could keep the smaller bullies away from her so that gave her some relief.

Ultimately, I don't really blame the bullies for harassing me and my sis, I blame their parents. Most of the bullies who bothered us had lives at home than ranged from drug-addicted / drug-dealing parents to spousal / child abuse that went on at a daily basis. In short, their lives at home were hell and they were taking their pain out on others. I forgiven the three bullies for tormenting me from 6th to 10th grade and I hope things get better in their lives.

As a man who was bullied in school [even by a few teachers], at home and online, I can tell you, it hurts. That's why now-a-days I stand up for the little guy whenever possible.

Nedstacey2 said:

As someone who's endured significant bullying during his childhood and adolescence and well into his adult and working life (grateful for the attention paid to that last aspect here), I thank you, Tenebrae, for initiating this discussion and everyone who's contributed.

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You are welcome, sir! I cannot say have really been bullied, neither as a kid nor as an adult, but I also find the topic of the utmost importance. It tells something about human nature, a very ugly aspect of it that I think is worth exploring.

Nedstacey2 said:

I'm uncertain as to whether the occurrence of bullying is any worse here in the U.S., but rather it may just be that, as you and others have pointed out, the subject receives more attention for various reasons and consequently there's more public pressure to enact laws and other protections against it. But if there is anything about the American character, as abstract as that may be, that can be argued to foster bullying, it may be that unique among all the nations in the world (and I cringe to think I might be overlooking one thereby invalidating my choice of the word unique), the United States was founded on very egalitarian grounds, i.e., the F/founders specifically rejected the idea of a nobility and aristocratic hierarchy based on bloodlines alone. And perhaps that proved to be an overly idealistic and unnatural social structure to impose on any country that happens to be composed entirely of contemporary specimens of Homo sapiens. As you mentioned,

"A colleague of mine, an esteemed professor, says he believes that the issue may be exacerbated by the American competitive mindset. Some sort of Darwinian approach to society, coupled with the desire, bred from an early age on in every American, to prove him/herself better than his neighbor."

So yes, because our only "aristocracies" are those of wealth and/or talent/accomplishment, perhaps as Americans we sense more acutely that natural urge to "put people in their place" to help ourselves feel more secure, a yen that excessive bullying might help satiate to some extent.

Click to expand...

I share your point of view. If you ask me, I find it significant that the states decided that the phenomenon was serious enough to start campaigning against it, raising funds and voting laws. Nothing of the sort in France, where bullying is more or less perceived as "harmless child's play". Each school has its own policy towards it, but not minor is ever sent to prison in France, whatever they do. Much to my chagrin, if you ask me, but this is another debate...

Anyway, I find it very interesting to explain America through its meritocratic aspect. The detestation of privileges, and the obsession of avoiding tyranny (or to prevent the budding State to one day turn into a tyrannical one) is visible at every paragraph of your Constitution. I see a terrible flaw though, but I shall write to you privately about it, otherwise we may stray too far off topic.

Nedstacey2 said:

It's interesting that in French Canada, whose culture is of course influenced not just by France as the "mother country" but also by the majority Anglophone Canada and the 800-lb. North American cultural gorilla that is the U.S., there is a word for 'bullying' and it's l'intimidation. Indeed, the Canadian federal government devotes a bilingual (naturally) Web page to the topic.

Click to expand...

"Intimidation" in French means the same as in English: to intimidate someone. The use of it to call "bullying" is interesting from a linguistic point of view, but would not be understood in that sense by most Mainland French like myself. The "correct" term in France for bullying is, regrettably so because it does not really carry the exact meaning of the world, "harrassement". School bullying is called "harrassement scolaire".

Thank you for your brilliant and educated response!

chicago said:

http://www.latitudenews.com/story/what-country-has-the-most-bullies/

Looks like US is not the worst country for bullying. Perhaps because we have states (and many schools) with a zero tolerance policy now

Click to expand...

Thank you Chicago for this graph! Wow, I cannot believe Lithuania is number 1 in Europe! I really wanna dig into that; I attended a summit there a few years ago; makes me regret I did not ask the question then! Hopefully I kept one of the professors' email somewhere.

I cannot access their data explorer though, I wish to see where France ranks among this. Would have also loved to see the results for China and Mongolia, but unfortunately they were not included in the survey.

EDIT: I found this on the page you linked: http://www.latitudenews.com/story/would-phoebe-prince-be-alive-if-she-had-lived-in-sweden/

It contains very interesting information; I did not know for one that President Obama had launched a National Summit on Bullying. Another proof that the USA are considering the problem seriously. And it introduced me to the tongue-twisting term of "ombudsman"; never saw that word before, and rather difficult for a French to pronounce.

tickle gamer said:

As a man who was bullied in school [even by a few teachers], at home and online, I can tell you, it hurts. That's why now-a-days I stand up for the little guy whenever possible.

Click to expand...

What? By teachers, really? As a teacher myself I cannot imagine bullying any of my students, nor can I picture my colleagues acting in any inappropriate way. Granted, I've probably hurt someone's feelings with a witty rebuke once in a while, but I cannot imagine purposefully picking on a student! IMO if I were in charge of the schools you've been to, these "teachers" would be out of a job pronto. I feel sorry you had to go through this; I feel somehow that bullying is even worse when it comes from a figure of authority.

Tenebrae said:

Dear American friends,

I was reading this post earlier:

http://www.ticklingforum.com/showth...tally-Disabled-Man-on-Facebook-Live-Broadcast

Also numerous articles on the Cheat Sheet:

http://www.cheatsheet.com/money-car...ans-are-leaving-the-workforce.html/?a=viewall

http://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/how-to-deal-with-workplace-bullying.html/

And last but not least, a significant number of people here have confessed to having been bullied at school, at work and even within their families or friends' circle.

To be honest, I am sure that bullying exists in every society. I can say that I have witnessed some of it at different stages of my life, both in France and in China. However, I am under the impression that the problem may be somewhat more serious in the USA. Please do not hesitate to tell me if you think I am wrong, but after looking into this seriously, I started to notice details and patterns.

This comes as a surprise to me in a way, because Americans are some of the friendliest people I know (tied with Canadians). My American colleagues are simply adorable, warm and open-minded people who are always available for a good drink and generally more "relaxed" than my fellow French who can come off as a little bit "cold" or "stuck up" at times. Me included. As such, I always tended to believe that Americans tend to treat each other nicely.

Yet, I've been looking into this for a couple of months, and been finding out that a lot of you are complaining about bullying. There are hell of a lot of stories out there, of children driven to suicide, workers being harassed by colleagues to the point of quitting, and absolutely horrifying "hazings". Really a lot, and more disturbing than anything I have read from my own country.

Well, maybe I am just giving too much importance to something marginal, overblown by the Internet and the physical distance between me and Uncle Sam. But I want to ask you: do you think that bullying may be a more serious problem in the USA than in other countries? Have you experienced/witnessed some of it, and have you been disturbed/affected by it? If you think the problem may be more serious in the US, what do you think is the cause of it? A colleague of mine, an esteemed professor, says he believes that the issue may be exacerbated by the American competitive mindset. Some sort of Darwinian approach to society, coupled with the desire, bred from an early age on in every American, to prove him/herself better than his neighbor.

Maybe he is right. However I disagree with him on at least one point: bullying is not the triumph of the strong against the weak; it is rather the opposite in my opinion. Ganging up on someone, or abusing of a position/edge you may have on someone is actually a display of weakness, and the product of a deeply perverse thought-process.

Anyway, your contributions are welcome. If you can recommend any book on the matter (books about American society, mentality, etc...) I would also appreciate.

Click to expand...

I agree w/your overall sentiment, except for "hazing". Hazing is (I don't think it's as bad now as it was in the past) usually part of joining a group, like a fraternity, for example. So the people being hazed are doing so voluntarily.
Now that's not to excuse abusive hazing (physical abuse, forced drinking, etc.) but for someone pledging a fraternity, the pledge understands hazing as part of the process before he decides to join the frat. And like I said, I don't believe hazing is nearly as severe today as it was when I was in college

magic fingers said:

I agree w/your overall sentiment, except for "hazing". Hazing is (I don't think it's as bad now as it was in the past) usually part of joining a group, like a fraternity, for example. So the people being hazed are doing so voluntarily.
Now that's not to excuse abusive hazing (physical abuse, forced drinking, etc.) but for someone pledging a fraternity, the pledge understands hazing as part of the process before he decides to join the frat. And like I said, I don't believe hazing is nearly as severe today as it was when I was in college

Click to expand...

Well of course you are right, but in the case you are describing I would talk about "initiation" rather than "hazing". The way I see it, hazing is harmful in the sense that it is essentially using humiliation to impose one's authority over newcomers. It is wrong, because for one it does not work like that in real life, and two, it gives the kids a perverted idea of what leadership should be about. Great leaders should lead by example, humility and honor (yes, I am an old school kind of guy) at least ideally. Not by intimidating, harassing and humiliating their subordinates. No matter how "light" or "fun" hazing can be, I believe it to be wrong. There are other ways to create esprit de corps and solidarity among people. Ways that will make them look up to their leaders, not make them fear them.

However, to be totally honest, I admit that I have no experience with Fraternities and Sororities; this is a very American thing, completely absent from my native France. But we do have hazing, especially in prestigious colleges, and I am all for putting a full stop to it, for reasons I have developed above. Yet I respect your point of view, even though we have a disagreement.

Not sure I could pronounce ombudsman myself either lol

Tenebrae said:

Thank you for your brilliant and educated response!

Click to expand...

Je vous en prie. C'était très aimable à vous.

Tenebrae said:

And it introduced me to the tongue-twisting term of "ombudsman"; never saw that word before, and rather difficult for a French to pronounce.

Click to expand...

chicago said:

Not sure I could pronounce ombudsman myself either lol

Click to expand...

Ah yes, local government, the repository for wacky and obscure--and pertinaciously gender-exclusionary--occupational titles: ombudsman, alderman, first selectman, among others. And comptroller, a gussied-up form of controller which is how it's usually pronounced anyway (except for Literal Larrys like me who insist on stumbling over sight-readings), we oughta dump 'er in the bay.