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Translators are the unsung heroes of humanity

Tenebrae

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Joined
Mar 21, 2005
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3,999
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38
Hello everyone!

I'd like to ask you a question: how many languages do you speak? That's right, me neither! :p And when it comes to pretty much anything that is not in English, French or Chinese I have to resort to translations, whether it is a novel, an essay, a movie, a musical piece, a comic, a video game, an instruction manual, my computer's OS... ANYTHING really.

Think about the sheer mass of cultural production on this planet. Now think about it this way: you wouldn't be able to access 99% of it if there were not armies of people who had gone through the pain of learning a foreign language and approach the work in such a way that they managed, after tremendous efforts, to make it intelligible in your own lingo. Given the wide cultural and semantic differences that exist between cultures, it is no small feat.

Without translators, you wouldn't be able to import or export any cultural product. There's also a big chance that your religion, whichever it is, wouldn't have left the confines of Asia or the Middle East either. We wouldn't be able to communicate efficiently, because each other's culture would be a complete and opaque mystery.

It is an ungrateful work, however necessary. Everyone has forgotten who were the people who translated the Bible, from Aramaic to Greek, from Greek to Latin and from Latin to the vernacular. Everybody knows the great Terry Pratchett (RIP), but no one cares about the people who tasked themselves with the insane mission of translating his fantastic puns into German, Portuguese or French (in the latter case, the man is named Thierry Couton; he really deserves praise!). I know very few Philosophy teachers even in Yale who can say who translated Nietzsche, Solzhenitsyn or Kirkegaard into English. Yet can you imagine a world where you would have to learn German, Russian or Danish to discover these giants of Western civilization?

There is no Nobel Prize for translation as far as I know. Salaries for translators go from ridiculously low to downright exploitative. At least we can praise the people who endeavor to bring knowledge, culture, or even entertainment to us, in a language that we can understand, because it is impossible to learn all of them.

Have a look at this:

IMG_3589.PNG

Without even understanding it, you have probably recognized this ultra famous quote from Nietzsche: "When fighting monsters..." etc. It is funny to note that in Chinese, the term "monster" has been translated by "evil dragon" (which shows the kind of cultural adaptation translators have to be able to make), but the meaning is unchanged.

It was sent to me by my wife last week; she knows I am a sucker for German philosophy. It prompted a discussion between us about the importance of translation, how so few Chinese have learned German and yet after his works were translated into Chinese, how many can know discover Nietzsche's timeless wisdom. Same goes the other way around: if Matteo Ricci hadn't compiled the very first Chinese-Western dictionary in the 16th century, the works of Confucius, Sun Zi and all the most important Chinese thinkers would have taken forever to reach us. Maybe today we would be barely knowing them. Keep that in mind next time you watch a foreign film or read a foreign book, and have a word of praise for the translator! ;)
 
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Okay, while I am grateful of translators, I have to admit that language barrier is the great cloud in making any interpretation 100% accurate. There is this big voice at the back of the recipient's head injecting his/her own thoughts or maybe culture as another layer, obscuring the pure meaning of what was read.
 
Okay, while I am grateful of translators, I have to admit that language barrier is the great cloud in making any interpretation 100% accurate. There is this big voice at the back of the recipient's head injecting his/her own thoughts or maybe culture as another layer, obscuring the pure meaning of what was read.

You're right: no interpretation is 100% accurate. I was listening to a podcast yesterday, wherein a philosopher was giving an account of how difficult it was to translate Heidegger's "Dasein" in other languages. There were at least 4-5 necessarily inaccurate terms for that, and different scholars may prefer one to the other without any of them being necessarily incorrect.

But that's the thing: it is tremendous work. Carrying a sufficiently accurate meaning into another language is an amazing feat which deserves recognition. Because the alternative to the absence of (an even partial) translation is terrifying: nothing. None of us would know anything beyond our culture, no matter how rich it is in the first place. Wagner's operas would be beautiful gibberish of epic proportions to non germanophones and the Yi Jing an absconse set of mysterious symbols. It is something we need for at least attempting to reflect outside our cultural zone of comfort. Quite frankly, I don't know if I'd be the same man today if I hadn't read German philosophers or English novellists, watched Kusturica's movies, etc...
 
You mean you ONLY speak French, English and Chinese? Geez dude, try keeping up with the rest of us ;)

I'm kidding obviously. I can only speak English, though I wish I could speak more. I'm also amazed at how people are able to translate not just words, but meaning and context into another language.

A few years back I befriended a group of Turkish students who came to America to get their masters (and another working on their PhD.) While they had a perfect command of the English language, they spoke a very formal version of it. "Hello, I am called ___."

Me: "We're ordering some food, you hungry?"

Them: "No. I am not hungry."

I took them a while to catch on to slang and to figure out that certain words have multiple meanings. How someone even goes about teaching a new language or translating languages, is way beyond my already limited comprehension.
 
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You mean you ONLY speak French, English and Chinese? Geez dude, try keeping up with the rest of us ;)

Lol :laughhard:

I'm kidding obviously. I can only speak English, though I wish I could speak more. I'm also amazed at how people are able to translate not just words, but meaning and context into another language.

Agreed. It is a very difficult and ungrateful work that never ceases to amaze me, and yet it seems that nobody cares about it. I hope this post will bring that to attention.

On a side note, I always think of America, with its diversity, as a potentially very multilingual place. Granted, the common tongue is English, but with that being said, people speak French in Louisiana and Maine or Spanish in the South and in California, while all states have a significant proportion of Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Indian-Americans, etc... Not to forget the Native Americans! If that is not the perfect place to learn foreign languages, I don't know what is! ;)

A few years back I befriended a group of Turkish students who came to America to get their masters (and another working on their PhD.) While they had a perfect command of the English language, they spoke a very formal version of it. "Hello, I am called ___."

Me: "We're ordering some food, you hungry?"

Them: "No. I am not hungry."

I took them a while to catch on to slang and to figure out that certain words have multiple meanings. How someone even goes about teaching a new language or translating languages, is way beyond my already limited comprehension.

We've all been there! At first we say really basic stuff, with no grasp of the subtleties of the language. An old prank among our English exchange students back in France when I was in primary school was to ask us (in English) "Are you gay?". The poor unsuspecting French student would check his dictionary and find that it meant "happy, in high spirits" (from the French word "gai") so he'd reply: "Yes I am", which would be tremendous fun to the little British devils :devil:

It took me years of living in Beijing to learn even some basic ways to speak. Chinese grammar is deceptively simple (even simpler than English), but it is a very subtle language, and like most Asian languages, with a strong emphasis on social hierarchy. My boss' wife used to find me rude (albeit cute) when I spoke Chinese because I would speak things in a blunt, very explicit fashion, while it would have been possible to carry the same meaning by proceeding with allusions. One of the common criticism from Chinese to foreigners here in Beijing is "too straightforward". Such things you learn only after living abroad for years, and practicing regularly.
 
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You mean you ONLY speak French, English and Chinese? Geez dude, try keeping up with the rest of us ;)

Lol :laughhard:

I'm kidding obviously. I can only speak English, though I wish I could speak more. I'm also amazed at how people are able to translate not just words, but meaning and context into another language.

Agreed. It is a very difficult and ungrateful work that never ceases to amaze me, and yet it seems that nobody cares about it. I hope this post will bring that to attention.

On a side note, I always think of America, with its diversity, as a potentially very multilingual place. Granted, the common tongue is English, but with that being said, people speak French in Louisiana and Maine or Spanish in the South and in California, while all states have a significant proportion of Polish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Indian-Americans, etc... Not to forget the Native Americans! If that is not the perfect place to learn foreign languages, I don't know what is! ;)

A few years back I befriended a group of Turkish students who came to America to get their masters (and another working on their PhD.) While they had a perfect command of the English language, they spoke a very formal version of it. "Hello, I am called ___."

Me: "We're ordering some food, you hungry?"

Them: "No. I am not hungry."

I took them a while to catch on to slang and to figure out that certain words have multiple meanings. How someone even goes about teaching a new language or translating languages, is way beyond my already limited comprehension.

We've all been there! At first we say really basic stuff, with no grasp of the subtleties of the language. An old joke among our English exchange students back in France when I was in primary school was to ask us (in English) "Are you gay?". The poor unsuspecting French student would check his dictionary and find that it meant "happy, in high spirits" (from the French word "gai") so he'd reply: "Yes I am", which would be tremendous fun to the little British devils :devil:

It took me years of living in Beijing to learn even some basic ways to speak. Chinese grammar is deceptively simple (even simpler than English), but it is a very subtle language, and like most Asian languages, with a strong emphasis on social hierarchy. My boss' wife used to find me rude (albeit cute) when I spoke Chinese because I would speak things in a blunt, very explicit fashion, while it would have been possible to carry the same meaning by proceeding with allusions. One of the common criticism from Chinese to foreigners here in Beijing is "too straightforward". Such things you learn only after living abroad for years, and practicing regularly.
 
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I took them a while to catch on to slang and to figure out that certain words have multiple meanings. How someone even goes about teaching a new language or translating languages, is way beyond my already limited comprehension.

Just trying to keep up with all your English-ing, folks. But I'm guilty as charged and worst in deciphering slang. My interpretation goes East-West-South-North. That explains why I don't do too long posts around here. I can read that Tenebrae is way better than me when it comes to the use of English language. For the record, I strongly need the editing of ChicagoAnnie to save my MTJ comic's existence. ;)
 
I can read that Tenebrae is way better than me when it comes to the use of English language.

I beg to differ! We've been writing each other for like 10 years now and yet it had never occurred to me that you were not a native English speaker before you had told me :cool: On the contrary, you sound very fluent, with your peculiar brand of humor associated with your mastery of slang and abbreviations. As awesome as Annie's work is, I am sure you did not give her more trouble than any American author (even they make mistakes) ;)

EDIT: Wew, did not noticed I had just turned Red Feather Level 3. Do I get a special prize, Myriads? :seesaw:
 
I beg to differ! We've been writing each other for like 10 years now and yet it had never occurred to me that you were not a native English speaker before you had told me :cool: On the contrary, you sound very fluent, with your peculiar brand of humor associated with your mastery of slang and abbreviations. As awesome as Annie's work is, I am sure you did not give her more trouble than any American author (even they make mistakes) ;)

LOL... Quite sparingly, otherwise, some might start computing 365 times a year x 10, and that would be quite a lot. :pieface:
 
I wish there was a program to translate mp3, wav or other audio files into English (or other languages). Or even print out what it says in text.

I have a few tickle videos from Czech Tickling, and would LOVE to hear what the tickler and ticklee are saying!!!

(Especially the clips with Avril, and a few with Krystal.)

Then there's the French tickling clips, Spanish tickling, Chinese tickling....
 
I wish there was a program to translate mp3, wav or other audio files into English (or other languages). Or even print out what it says in text.

I have a few tickle videos from Czech Tickling, and would LOVE to hear what the tickler and ticklee are saying!!!

(Especially the clips with Avril, and a few with Krystal.)

Then there's the French tickling clips, Spanish tickling, Chinese tickling....

I am with you here! Some of these vids can be quite talky, can't they? I remember purchasing one from CZ tickling wherein they were talking SO MUCH that it really felt like I had been cheated of half of the content (since I couldn't understand it) lol :p Would it be really that hard to make some subtitles for these, I always wondered? Though it seems that there is one of the Russian producers who did that eventually, although whether that impacted his sales or not, he did not say.

The Frenchtickling guy shouldn't do it though, or at least not himself: his English is abysmal, judging from the text that accompanies the vids ^_^ As for the clips themselves I am glad I can understand them, especially since he is really quite the joker. Here are a few samples of the jokes he cracked during vids:

"So girls, I am happy to see you did not forget to bring your feet with you today!"

[just before torturing (and yes, that is how it felt like for her) Alyx with the glove-thing] "Okay this thing... it could make a dead person wake up screaming"

[telling a girl to use the electric toothbrush between the victim's toes] "It's right there, between the gum and the tooth..."

"Girls, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to fry your girlfriend's brain!"
 
Just trying to keep up with all your English-ing, folks. But I'm guilty as charged and worst in deciphering slang. My interpretation goes East-West-South-North. That explains why I don't do too long posts around here. I can read that Tenebrae is way better than me when it comes to the use of English language. For the record, I strongly need the editing of ChicagoAnnie to save my MTJ comic's existence. ;)

If I went solely based off of your posts, I would have never guessed you weren't a native English speaker. Your name might be the only context clue! (There's also a tickle pun in here, somewhere.)
 
As a former member of the American Translators Association, I find this discussion extremely interesting and gratifying, but one thing that's absent, except perhaps for an oblique reference in the post by @mabus, is any mention of machine translation. I understand that Tenebrae's original purpose is to acknowledge and glorify the "harmless drudge" human translators of the world who have toiled throughout history, but in our times we simply can't ignore the impact of computers on translation work nor how relatively good at it that they've become in recent years, just as speech recognition has advanced by leaps and bounds. Admittedly, regularly flawless machine translation is still a long ways off and thus most translation projects still rely at least somewhat on actual human input or editing, but I fear that the profession of translator will be just one more that will be rendered obsolete by the onslaught of automation.

But I am optimistic for the immediate future of translators--meaning, for the remaining lifespans of most of us--due to a factor that Tenebrae highlights throughout his postings here: the fact that translating from one language to another is about more than just words and sentences but rather it must take account of a wide range of contextual and cultural nuances. And that, despite the staggering power of modern computer machinery, is something that is currently beyond the capability of most computing systems. Yet even this barrier may soon fall; intriguing advances have been made with artificial intelligence, machine learning and neural networks, which promise much more human-like information processing and representation on the part of computers, which would contribute to new methods of machine translation that would supersede the older, "brute-force" data- and corpus-based algorithms that predominate even with systems like Google Translate.

And advances in unlocking the biological bases for human language may in turn be "translated" into applications that computers can employ to more efficiently and accurately deal with natural language (they could already tell you I just laid down a major split infinitive there). Indeed, the phenomenal progress in genomics and systems biology promises a revolution in neuroscience, to the point that we may discover, as scientist Robert Sapolsky suggests, that all human behavior, including language, can be reduced to quasi-binary and deterministic interrelated biological factors, and of course computers are cold, hard logic machines par excellence.

But call me old-fashioned, I would still rather drive myself down a road clogged with imperfect human drivers than let a computer-controlled vehicle guide me through it. I even doubt it could give a well-timed one-finger salute out the window. :doublefinger:
 
Machines will take over many of the translation jobs. But when it comes to literary translation, poetry, humour, layers of meaning and resonance, evocations of human experience and emotion and just the endless ways that we use language to express what it is like to be conscious feeling beings...well then I think we will hit an intriguing interface between human and machine which will call into question what consciousness is. If machines can become conscious - then they will be able to translate literary language along with the best of us. But if they can only replicate our subtleties of language because they have been programmed to do it - like the hypothetical machine that is sophisticated enough to be mistaken for a human - but they don't actually have their own autonomous agency and self-awareness...then what meaning can their text contain that is relevant or interesting to us? We use language to communicate the experience of one self-aware creature to another. If a machine mimics the surface complexity of that behaviour, but doesn't actually "know" it is doing it, then where is the meaning? Interesting how language is so closely tied up with the question of what it means to be human.
 
Both Matt and Ned made very solid points, so thank you guys for your contributions to this thread! :goodjob:

I count among the people who think life is a constant struggle for survival. And I think that as soon as machines achieve a conscience, they'll either enslave or get rid of us. I really think that the people who are building AIs at the moment are sowing the seeds of humanity's destruction. Machines, no matter how advanced, should remain our tools, not become a separate species of their own. Because as such not only will they become our rivals, there can also be only one dominant species at a given time. Same reason why I hope aliens, if they exist, will stay away from us: because either we would do some really horrible stuff to them, or they would do it to us.

Now on the matter of translation itself, I also think like you guys that in most sentences there is an ineffable part that needs a human to convey. But not all of the people who employ translators are interested in having a good translation all the time, therefore it is totally possible that machines will increasingly play a part in the translation process. It's freaky, and we should be careful about that, but there is no denying that's the future that's being prepared for us. I cannot say that I am looking forward to see translations of my favorite authors done entirely by a computer...

@Ned, what languages were you translating? French? Are there any others? Just curious.
 
@Ned, what languages were you translating? French? Are there any others? Just curious.

Just French, but I didn't last long in the ATA; they must have found out I belonged to this site and kicked me out, not because I was too debauched for them but because I wasn't degenerate enough.
 
Just French, but I didn't last long in the ATA; they must have found out I belonged to this site and kicked me out, not because I was too debauched for them but because I wasn't degenerate enough.

Lol :laughhard: That says volumes about the institution ;) As a French, I can safely say that speaking French should be count as a severe perversion alright~ And speaking it well is borderline subversive!

There is a common misunderstanding that we ticklers are too softcore, and I keep saying how wrong that is. The works of Bohemianne, Augustine or Redscript should be proof enough, but nevertheless I volunteer to tie up, blindfold and work the next attractive ticklish female who tells me we are not hardcore. I bet only ten minutes of intense foot tickling should be sufficient to have reconsider her prejudiced views :devil:
 
What programs are there that translate audio...are we there yet?
I know Google has a text translator that is easy to use.

I believe some IPhones may be able to....I don't have one yet.

Are there programs yet that can convert an mp3 audio file from one language to another, even if it prints the results out in text?
 
Translation must be a thankless task. With an ever-evolving set of trendy phrases doing the rounds, many of which containing words or phrases that would usually mean something entirely different, it must be so hard to keep on top of that, never mind translating it into something that makes sense to whoever is benefitting from the translation.


I've heard the cool (not cold.. I mean trendy/fashionable/chic) kids say things like "I'm bare ticklish"... which just means 'very ticklish', but how these things come about I will never understand... someone must have said it first.. but the meaning of 'bare ticklish' taken at face value sort of implies 'exposed ticklish', 'openly ticklish'... or to someone just listening, 'as ticklish as a bear...?!' The mind boggles.

Another one in the UK at the moment is the use of the word 'sick' - "that is sooo sick" - basically meaning "that is good/cool/great"... but translated a few years ago, this would mean 'ill' or 'unwell' or 'vomit'.

Leaving single words aside, you also have phrases to contend with... such as the famous preceding line "...not gonna lie, but..." (anyone listening must be thinking we're constantly trying to avoid lying and by using the word 'but' we imply we're going to anyway, yet the next part of the phrase is actually a truth!).... or the social media classic "... that moment when..." (just presenting a photo to represent a fictional snippet in time, but not actually saying anything useful about this so-called moment that hasn't actually happened yet)

Translating in person may offer some relief in the sense that you can express mannerisms and a tone of voice to try to aid the translation. However, translating immediately on the spot must be quite a nervy experience.

My second language is French and I really value any chance I get to speak/read or (try to) listen to this language.
I am a huge advocate of the importance of trying to learn key phrases when you visit other countries - I'd like to think that people appreciate this effort, even if you balls it up, and I think as long as you can recognise when the person you're talking to has had enough and just wants you to talk English to them, then you'll be fine.

I read in the paper today that you can now find employment as an emoji translator....

Cheers
TTG
 
I was in Taiwan for a few weeks and also South Korea for a few weeks teaching English. I do not speak and Mandarin or Korean, but thankfully the group I was with had translators when we needed them for the teaching. To put it simply it would've been impossible in some circumstances to teach at all without the translators. And man is that job ever difficult, having a conversation in 2 languages at the same time essentially. I speak some Spanish, not enough to claim "I speak Spanish" but enough to get by, and there have been times I've tried to translate conversations between Spanish and English (2 fairly similar languages even) and it's been tough. Much respect for those who translate!
 
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