Would you rather see a model's first time, or a 'lee who's a known commodity?

brotherted · Aug 13, 2017

Not even close for me.

A girl who literally has no idea what it'll really be like is about 20 times more exciting to me than the great, famous so-and-so who's been through the drill 25 times. It may not be 100% fair, but I can't help but feeling that those veteran girls have learned to sell their performance to the camera if they want to be asked back for more cash.

And in some other slightly repressed way, I want the girls who have given consent to be in the tickling video, of course, but then so completely regret having given that consent that there's no way in hell they'd ever even consider doing it again. That's the kind of girl who couldn't possibly become a veteran of many videos, no matter how much the pay.

She's who I want to see most. Am I alone?

moose · Aug 13, 2017

first timer or a newbie i just like genuine natural laughter

ImNotDave · Aug 13, 2017

First timer.

Sodahead · Aug 13, 2017

I'd rather see a lee who is enjoying herself. So I'd lean towards a lee who is well known to the community, because it's more likely that she's really into it.

I've seen some vids where the lee was a model and a first timer who seemed to enjoy it, so those were cool too

devioustickler · Aug 13, 2017

First timer for sure! But if this model is an everyday woman and sticks to one main site, then I am game with that.

maniactickler · Aug 13, 2017

First timer.

milagros317 · Aug 13, 2017

I would rather see a first time model.

Babbles · Aug 13, 2017

You can enjoy that initial shock but there should never be real distress or no escape

That's always been a real problem, if women (or men) are suckered into real torture they didn't see coming, didn't experience before.

If it's not fully informed consent, and continuous, it's not consent. Period.

People/producers who don't give safe words, who don't care if a Newbie or any 'lee is horrified, really uncomfortable, in serious distress, are predators if they act on that fantasy.
There have always been too many guys here who look for real abuse in videos as well as with the women they meet. In the USA, Europe, East Asia, wherever.

The fantasy can be presented, but nobody has the right to truly torture anyone who TAKES BACK that consent once they realize they MADE A MISTAKE.
There must ALWAYS be room for a safe word which is RESPECTED and a real escape --- ESPECIALLY with Newbies.

If the 'lee is interviewed AFTERWARD and laughs about it freely, that might be okay. If they're not intimidated into "being a good sport" and sh*t like that. :rant:

But nobody should be TRICKING anyone into torture, or forcing them to endure it with no escape route, regardless. And then promoting & profiting from that.

If productions are really made like this, they need to be shut down and those who torture women (or men) need to be arrested. ABUSE is not to be enacted nor promoted.
People need to make that distinction, in reality and in productions, or they're predators who need to be removed from society, along with their videotaped assault.

It should be stated ACCURATELY on any such video that no part of that production was truly non-consentual, or it's promoting abuse.

brotherted said:
Not even close for me.

A girl who literally has no idea what it'll really be like is about 20 times more exciting to me than the great, famous so-and-so who's been through the drill 25 times. It may not be 100% fair, but I can't help but feeling that those veteran girls have learned to sell their performance to the camera if they want to be asked back for more cash.

And in some other slightly repressed way, I want the girls who have given consent to be in the tickling video, of course, but then so completely regret having given that consent that there's no way in hell they'd ever even consider doing it again. That's the kind of girl who couldn't possibly become a veteran of many videos, no matter how much the pay.

She's who I want to see most. Am I alone?

maniactickler · Aug 13, 2017

Babbles, I ignore safewords. :woot:

matt62 · Aug 13, 2017

I feel guilty about it but yes I crave the first timers. People say they prefer the Lee to be "enjoying it", but that can be a very ambiguous thing. I don't want the Lee to hate it so much that they freeze. But I am not so much into the ones who find it all a pleasurable sensuous luxurious experience and can't get enough of that. I want some panic and despair I'm afraid. The thing is, some Lees seem to have a masochistic craving for that state themselves. So that can work out nicely. And first-timers are more likely to be taken by surprise and so have that element of panic/etc. Although there are more experienced ones who have it too and are still drawn to revisit it again and again.

Babbles · Aug 13, 2017

maniactickler said:
Babbles, I ignore safewords.

Yeah, right, sure you do.

You're one of the very few people I'd actually trust enough to meet.

Bradhadair · Aug 13, 2017

Anyone who gets turned on by what they s happening! My favorite videos are the ones where you can see the lees pussy lips swell or see their duck get hard. To me, tickling is sexy. Even if it is torment as well.

Wolf · Aug 13, 2017

I think it's an interesting question.
For me, the best thing is a model that's having fun, veteran or newbie.

brotherted · Aug 13, 2017

Babbles said:
Yeah, right, sure you do.

It may upset or bother you, but it's a fact that 'lees actually do have the right to agree to shoots without safe words. You may not like it, but they do have that right.

That said, I would never endorse nor participate in something that I feels truly traumatizes or terrifies someone. But it's also common sense that tickling inherently produces discomfort in the recipient, and the lowest level reaction to the worst, most traumatic reaction will always be a continuum or subjective range. Framing it otherwise, as an overly simplistic and binary "suffering" or "not suffering," either/or, doesn't reflect the reality of what it is.

tickledgirls · Aug 13, 2017

First timer...

Babbles · Aug 13, 2017

It's not what I like or don't; it's "common sense." Safe, sane & consensual.

Brotherted, I'm afraid you missed the "overly simplistic" point. There always needs to be INFORMED choice. And an escape route.

For mental & physical well being. So they're not traumatized, not turned off, and don't have a heart attack.

So "common sense" is not so common. Because if a Lee hasn't experienced this, s/he cannot know what s/he is consenting TO.

You yourself noted that --- that naiveté & excruciating, extended shock is what you're seeking. And, unfortunately, the sort of "complete regret" that would prevent them from returning, as you said, so you know they really were far beyond their tolerance. That becomes abuse right there.

More sophisticated or professional vocabulary won't sugarcoat that.

The fantasy, even the reality of an unsuspecting tickle virgin going insane with new sensations is understandable & can be maintained, but a responsible, caring person will make sure there is a safe word for any sort of emergency, including a simply regrettable level of discomfort.

Anything less is unethical and should be illegal.

brotherted · Aug 14, 2017

Babbles said:
Brotherted, I'm afraid you missed the "overly simplistic" point. There always needs to be INFORMED choice. And an escape route.

No, I don't think I've missed your point; I simply disagree with your point.

You use the word "informed" as if it's always obvious what it means to be informed, because the words used to describe this kind of intensity are so precise and unambiguous.

Let's say a 'lee agrees in advance to be tied and tickled for between 10 and 15 minutes, and to make the point clearer, let's say she agrees to have no safe word. Then once it starts, while she's not truly traumatized or fearful at any point, and never demands for the shoot to stop, she's also quite clear that it's far more intense than she expected. (Not exactly such a theoretical, out-there scenario.) Was that "informed choice" or not? Does the fact that it was far more intense than she expected means her choice actually wasn't "informed"? Or is the broader context more important, that she never exhibited signs of true trauma, nor asked for the shoot to stop? I'm quite sure that different people might answer this differently (like perhaps the two of us, for example).

That's why I say there's no way to select a group of words so perfectly and carefully that they can exactly "inform" the amount of discomfort they might feel, or exactly how continuously you'll tickle, or how perfectly you'll hit spots they never knew they had.

Ultimately in the real world it becomes more about common sense, and having a sense of people. Yes, if someone feels truly traumatized, you stop. That said, an experience that's worse than somewhat expected is, by definition, not "informed" -- but that doesn't make it assault.

Babbles · Aug 14, 2017

That's quite different from what you said you wanted to see, but either way...

Nice try, but what you're describing is the best case scenario, and not at all what you described with your first post. :ermm:

Someone unfamiliar, in effect tricked, SHOCKED, GOING MAD, COMPLETELY REGRETTING IT, your words, and SO BADLY that she'll never want to return to it.

But even 10 minutes can be a horrible experience, or a damaging one, when you hate every SECOND of it, or can't take the sensation. :shock2:

Especially with oil & a brush??? Forget it. But even "just" fingers --- 1-3 minutes can be too much for someone really sensitive. THAT can be Hell, and even that's abuse, or assault, if it's clear the person wants out.

People think tickling is light fun, no big deal --- they often have NO CLUE and there are too many videos of people getting tricked into a truly hellish situation, some all too real.

Which can also result in physical harm if someone has a weak heart, etc. Even if not --- Whether 30 seconds or 30 minutes, unwilling agony is not acceptable.

Regardless of the length or intensity (which you can't know unless you're able to get in someone's mind) there needs to be a clearly marked exit. It IS that simple.

"Informed" consent is essential. And so is continuous ---- Someone can return to it, and find they can't take it the 2nd or 3rd time.
Regardless of whether they think they know what they're entering into --- IF lees change their minds when they find they can't endure it (maybe it was fingers the first time, oil & a brush the 2nd... another new & totally different scenario EACH TIME, and even if not)
----they're not going to care about verbose arguments about what constitutes "informed" consent, they'll just want OUT & need to have that exit unblocked.

marcusb · Aug 14, 2017

First timer.

Good example is Sasha Foxx. It "seems" her first tickle video was with tickle central, "Sacha bedspread" back in 2013. Her reactions are so damn adorable. It's an awesome clip. She's done tons of other clips but none have the magic that makes that clip so good.

https://www.clips4sale.com/studio/53/9468823/Sacha+Bedspread+&+Tickle+Tortured+HD

brotherted · Aug 14, 2017

Babbles said:
Nice try, but what you're describing is the best case scenario, and not at all what you described with your first post.

I wasn't restating my first post. Why have you assumed I was trying to? I was writing about a new scenario to illustrate my point to you more clearly -- there's no way anyone can ever be so articulate with advance descriptions that surprises are impossible. In other words "informed" can always be defined subjectively.

Babbles said:
Someone unfamiliar, in effect tricked, SHOCKED, GOING MAD, COMPLETELY REGRETTING IT, your words, and SO BADLY that she'll never want to return to it.

Yes, that sounds great to me. And while that scenario could describe an inappropriate session, it doesn't necessarily.

Babbles said:
But even 10 minutes can be a horrible experience, or a damaging one, when you hate every SECOND of it, or can't take the sensation.

Agreed. Yes, that's possible.

Babbles said:
Especially with oil & a brush??? Forget it. But even "just" fingers --- 1-3 minutes can be too much for someone really sensitive. THAT can be Hell, and even that's abuse, or assault, if it's clear the person wants out.

It can certainly be abusive. But it wouldn't legally be considered assault, if the 'lee explicitly agreed to it all in advance in writing, but just didn't expect it to feel that intense.

Babbles said:
People think tickling is light fun, no big deal --- they often have NO CLUE and there are too many videos of people getting tricked into a truly hellish situation, some all too real.

Really? In my whole life I've maybe ever seen two or three as you describe. Can you give me an example of what you mean? I'm not trolling -- I'm genuinely curious if I simply haven't seen the kind you're talking about, or whether you're interpreting some videos as "truly hellish" that I'm interpreting as acting jobs.

Babbles said:
Which can also result in physical harm if someone has a weak heart, etc. Even if not --- Whether 30 seconds or 30 minutes, unwilling agony is not acceptable.

A tickling-induced heart attack? Do you have any evidence of such a thing ever happening, literally in human history? I'm asking seriously -- please share if you do.

Babbles said:
Regardless of the length or intensity (which you can't know unless you're able to get in someone's mind) there needs to be a clearly marked exit. It IS that simple.

"Informed" consent is essential. And so is continuous ---- Someone can return to it, and find they can't take it the 2nd or 3rd time.
Regardless of whether they think they know what they're entering into --- IF lees change their minds when they find they can't endure it (maybe it was fingers the first time, oil & a brush the 2nd... another new & totally different scenario EACH TIME, and even if not)
----they're not going to care about verbose arguments about what constitutes "informed" consent, they'll just want OUT & need to have that exit unblocked.

Okay, well the conversation about whether a 'lee has the right to agree to shoots without safe words is a separate conversation. To make it explicit, may I ask you that simple question: Does a 'lee have the right to agree to a shoot without a safe word? Yes or No?

Sensualswitch10 · Aug 14, 2017

First time, definitely

ChicagoDavid · Aug 16, 2017

For me, the biggest turn on is when the lee has that look of desperation when fingers are close. (Not necessarily terrified panic). And when she is trying to pull away before the fingers touch, or involuntarily laughing before the fingers touch. That comes a lot more often with first-timers, or at least near first timers. But some seem to be able to pull it off repeatedly.

In weighing in on the babbles/brotherted debate: Babbles, I agree with your concern about models being tricked into and not having an escape route, and some of the terrible examples you give. I also agree with you, that its' tragic when someone takes advantage of someone by getting consent without full disclosure. Unfortunately, hard and fast rules don't work very well to avoid that problem. If producer says, "will you agree to a five minute tickle session, where you are restrained, tickled for 5 minutes, and you get no safeword," that seems technically like it is consent, and it may be enough to say that to someone who has done a bunch of tickling clips, but more should be said if she is a newbie. Also, I don't think you can give a blanket rule, "there HAS to be a safeword." You can find examples where the model somehow didn't realize what she was in for, and the producer absolutely should not have taken advantage of that. But there are other examples where the "you have to have a safeword rule" can't be justified. The model, who has done a tickle session before so she knows what it's like, agrees for a double fee to a 5 minute no safeword session isn't allowed to do that? I personally don't want a safeword when I play -- for me, it takes away from the experience if I have the ability to make the person stop. I'm not allowed to do that?

AbsolutelyTkld · Aug 16, 2017

For me it's a mix up. I like first timers because I enjoy taking them through that journey and feeding their curiosity. From a producer standpoint. Someone who has come back a second time to work with you (not typically a veteran per say). Tends to have better reactions because they are more comfortable. A lot of first timers tend to hold back laughter and not let go. The reactions tend to be a lot better the second or even third time around. Just from my experience.

-Jay

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

brotherted · Aug 16, 2017

ChicagoDavid said:
I personally don't want a safeword when I play -- for me, it takes away from the experience if I have the ability to make the person stop. I'm not allowed to do that?

Agreed!

But what if we make it even simpler. There are countless S&M videos produced all the time where the model is literally wearing a ball gag, sometimes even also with tape across her face or a leather face mask on top of the gag. Those models can't speak any word if they tried, "safe" or otherwise. Are those videos all illegal? Of course not. Are the punishments they receive in the videos sometimes far worse than they expected? Obviously.

Suggesting all those thousands of shoots with models in gags are automatically illegal or morally wrong simply makes no sense -- there's always a subjective aspect -- just like with tickling.