Why are there so many tickling producers out there?

Random thought I thought I'd share with you. It never ceases to astonish me how many tickling studios we have on C4S. I wonder how come the offer is so plethoric.

Think about it; our fetish is really a niche one, so the potential profit seems, at first glace, minimal. Then opening and maintaining a studio, with regular updates, constant searching of new models, purchase of appropriate gear... represents an investment of both time and money that does not seem accessible to just any of us.

Yet, there is a plethora of studios out there, and from what I can tell from glancing at the occasional ad on top, they seem to offer at least decent content. Does any of you, especially from the professional side of things, have an explanation?

There are a number of reasons. Here are a few(and in no particular order):

1) Gateway to a cocaine fueled Hollywood film making career
2) Money
3) Money
4) Sex hook ups with models...and then find out they are married or have significant others
5) Money

Seriously, the main reasons are it's affordable and allows fans to fulfill their ambitions to become fetish and general movie producers. Some hope to make money, but most don't make all that much. I think most love doing it and get the itch to try. They go at it for varied lengths of time until they either burn out or lose interest. Few producers last more than a couple of years. It's hard work and most can't make a living at it. It's nice to see variety and we can enjoy their work while they make it.
Joe

Hey Joe! Thanks for the quick reply; it is always nice to hear your professional opinion!

Lol but what I am arguing precisely is that (once again from the outside) it does not seem to bring in a lot of money to begin with. There must be other ways to make money selling stuff on the Internet that are far more profitable than this.

laughinggaszone said:

1) Gateway to a cocaine fueled Hollywood film making career

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Lol seriously? I must confess I laughed a great deal when I imagined Tom Rothman jerking off on TA and then calling his assistant: "Mary? Get me Tommy's agent right away! Guy's got impressive directorial skills; let's put him in charge of that new DiCaprio flick we're working on!". Hell, I'd watch that if only for the torture scenes, haha

laughinggaszone said:

Sex hook ups with models...and then find out they are married or have significant others

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Which does not deter a lot of people I know. Quite the opposite in fact

Tenebrae said:

Hey Joe! Thanks for the quick reply; it is always nice to hear your professional opinion!

Lol but what I am arguing precisely is that (once again from the outside) it does not seem to bring in a lot of money to begin with. There must be other ways to make money selling stuff on the Internet that are far more profitable than this.



Lol seriously? I must confess I laughed a great deal when I imagined Tom Rothman jerking off on TA and then calling his assistant: "Mary? Get me Tommy's agent right away! Guy's got impressive directorial skills; let's put him in charge of that new DiCaprio flick we're working on!". Hell, I'd watch that if only for the torture scenes, haha



Which does not deter a lot of people I know. Quite the opposite in fact

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Well, I will not name names, but I know at least one fetish producer who truly thought his mediocre fetish vids were a test run for his career in Hollywood. Most producers don't make enough to support themselves, let alone themselves and assistants. Truthfully, a lot of models can't support themselves, but that has more to do with a lack of business acumen. Some models are sharp business people and others...well...you get the picture. It's tough making a living in self employment and some people (models and producers) really are not good at it. The adult industry makes it even tougher. So, you have that.

I know it's unpopular, but IMHO it's not piracy that kills most producers(it does kill some), it's competition. You are correct in stating that our fetish is rather small. Over the last decade, you have seen an explosion of online fetish producers, including tickling. We are store 282 on clips4sale which we opened in 2004. I have lost count how many stores they have now. I know its in the tens of thousands. Not all are actively producing, but many have given it a go. There are only so many disposable dollars to go around and customers have to decide where their hard earned sheckles will be spent.

A big problem with a lot of tickling producers is that they are one trick ponies. They do tickling and some do it really well...but...that is all they do. When you are a specialty store that deals in one subject you are essentially hoping that you never get stale and boring and your customers move on to the next shiny. We are fortunate that we dominate a fetish that we essentially popularized...laughing gas. We do quite well in tickling (we are usually in the top 10 of producers) and we also do very well in damsel in distress and to some degree superheroines. So, we have a more diverse audience and potentially larger clientele. This is why we are still around after twenty years. Producers like FTKL and TA have the right idea. FTKL does well in Damsel in distress and TA has his orgasm stuff. Producers have to diversify if they want to last. The best specialty stores don't stay on top forever. Competition unseats them and then they start a slow march down the rankings as customer dollars dry up.

We get a decent number of emails each year from people wanting to get into the business, asking us questions. We try to be honest about their chances and expectations without deterring them. There are far more profitable ways to make money on the internet. If you get into producing fetish movies, I think you have to enjoy it or the "work is its own reward" will not be enough.
Joe

laughinggaszone said:

Well, I will not name names, but I know at least one fetish producer who truly thought his mediocre fetish vids were a test run for his career in Hollywood. Most producers don't make enough to support themselves, let alone themselves and assistants. Truthfully, a lot of models can't support themselves, but that has more to do with a lack of business acumen. Some models are sharp business people and others...well...you get the picture. It's tough making a living in self employment and some people (models and producers) really are not good at it. The adult industry makes it even tougher. So, you have that.

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True dat. People don't often realize that being in charge (of anything) is actually something very difficult, and although in case of success the rewards can be pretty substantial, the responsibilities can be overwhelming. Business is not for everyone; it's amazing how many people just waltz in thinking they are gonna be successful because they somehow deserve it.

laughinggaszone said:

I know it's unpopular, but IMHO it's not piracy that kills most producers(it does kill some), it's competition. You are correct in stating that our fetish is rather small. Over the last decade, you have seen an explosion of online fetish producers, including tickling. We are store 282 on clips4sale which we opened in 2004. I have lost count how many stores they have now. I know its in the tens of thousands. Not all are actively producing, but many have given it a go. There are only so many disposable dollars to go around and customers have to decide where their hard earned sheckles will be spent.

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Lol "shekels" Besides the joke and the obvious memories to Life of Brian it brings about, I still cannot believe those numbers; it is almost like there is one store per fetishist out there!

laughinggaszone said:

A big problem with a lot of tickling producers is that they are one trick ponies. They do tickling and some do it really well...but...that is all they do. When you are a specialty store that deals in one subject you are essentially hoping that you never get stale and boring and your customers move on to the next shiny. We are fortunate that we dominate a fetish that we essentially popularized...laughing gas. We do quite well in tickling (we are usually in the top 10 of producers) and we also do very well in damsel in distress and to some degree superheroines. So, we have a more diverse audience and potentially larger clientele. This is why we are still around after twenty years. Producers like FTKL and TA have the right idea. FTKL does well in Damsel in distress and TA has his orgasm stuff. Producers have to diversify if they want to last. The best specialty stores don't stay on top forever. Competition unseats them and then they start a slow march down the rankings as customer dollars dry up.

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It is very nice to hear a producer sportily giving credit to the competition! I must confess that I am an FTKL enthusiast~ He is the only one I ever ordered a custom from, and although it took him forever and a half to deliver it, he was very professional all the way; I ended up very satisfied with the finished product. I think his style sets him apart from a lot of producers out there. Sometimes I wonder what this guy would be capable of with a decent budget; say one million or half a million USD ^_^

As for TA, I did not know that those "orgasm things" did so well for him. I believe the first to launch that were Realtickling back in the "silver age". It is a personal opinion, but in spite of all of Tommy's glory running his store, the best orgasms videos are on CZ or TI

laughinggaszone said:

We get a decent number of emails each year from people wanting to get into the business, asking us questions. We try to be honest about their chances and expectations without deterring them. There are far more profitable ways to make money on the internet. If you get into producing fetish movies, I think you have to enjoy it or the "work is its own reward" will not be enough.
Joe

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Seriously, more power to you for taking the time to explain the business side of things to us. You and Solemates are doing an excellent job at this; both of you guys' patience and clarity of expression is always appreciated.

Tenebrae said:

Random thought I thought I'd share with you. It never ceases to astonish me how many tickling studios we have on C4S. I wonder how come the offer is so plethoric.

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I have toyed with the idea of starting my own studio, and not for the money. I see enough complaints on here from producers about the amount of money to be made to know that I will likely end up losing money. But if I start my own studio and find a few models I'll get to tickle them which as you may have guessed is one of my fetishes. If I'm lucky a few of them may ask to get revenge on me, also something I'm into. I probably won't even try to make my studio big, just exist as a fun hobby.

Iluv2tickle123 said:

I have toyed with the idea of starting my own studio, and not for the money. I see enough complaints on here from producers about the amount of money to be made to know that I will likely end up losing money. But if I start my own studio and find a few models I'll get to tickle them which as you may have guessed is one of my fetishes. If I'm lucky a few of them may ask to get revenge on me, also something I'm into. I probably won't even try to make my studio big, just exist as a fun hobby.

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Honestly, and without wanting to discourage you, I think you'll save yourself a lot of trouble by taking the money you were planning to invest in a studio and putting it instead in dungeon sessions or something similar. I do not think the will to satisfy your fantasies is worth buying a camera, lighting equipment, hiring models, shooting, etc... IMO you gotta have something to offer, a vision of sorts, even though you are not doing that for the money. It's a lot of hard work.

That being said, I think every single one of us has toyed with this idea at least at some point in his/her life. And at the end of the day, entrepreneurship seems to be quite easy in the country you live in, so if what I said did not deter you, why not go for it indeed?

Tenebrae said:

That being said, I think every single one of us has toyed with this idea at least at some point in his/her life. And at the end of the day, entrepreneurship seems to be quite easy in the country you live in, so if what I said did not deter you, why not go for it indeed?

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I'd say the biggest thing that deters me is friends/family finding out. I've kept this fetish fairly private. I realize people may find out if I had my own studio but the more down low I keep it the better off I am. Having a studio would give me a good excuse to post things online asking for models. Potential loss of capital isn't a big deterrence for me. I can afford a few good camera's without changing my lifestyle. If I wanted to have a studio for the purpose of making money I wouldn't want to be the main 'ler. I'd want as many shoots as possible to be f/f. But since I would do it to act out some fantasies I would rather be the 'ler. I can watch plenty of f/f online. I don't think setting up a bad studio would be much work. I have a camera that I use for photography that takes decent video. I would just set it on a dresser and get any angle since I wouldn't be worried about the video quality. After that I already have restraints. I just need a location aka hotel because I'm not doing this in my house.

I believe for one, there are a number of producers who among various fetishes, produce content which includes tickling - but if more than 50% of that their content isn't tickling, I wouldn't really consider them "tickling producers". The aforementioned notwithstanding, I think the two main reasons so many exist are 1 - They have a concept which they either currently don't see being produced, or feel they could improve upon it and 2 - it's really not that difficult to produce tickling content. Honestly, with a lee, some space and an iphone you could make tickling clips. That isn't a commentary on quality, which is subjective anyway, but just to say how easy one could make the content.

To a much lesser degree, I think it bears mentioning the tickling audience (some foot fetish crossover), is voraciously insatiable!! While the average studio I'm guessing doesn't generate enough income to live on, overall, there is significant money being constantly spent on tickle fetish material. I feel pretty confident making that statement. I dip in and out of the C4S top 50 studios - usually out lol - yet in over 5 years, I've never not had a monthly payout. The minimum is easily made each month (already surpassed for the month of September). Mind you, I'm not bragging and thinking I'm such a great producer - I think it's due to the really awesome customers who've repeatedly supported my studio over the years. That is all to say, I'm a small time producer and I know what income my studio generates, when it almost never has a top clip. I can guess what those studios that routinely have 1 or 3 or 7 top selling clips each week generate. Again, that isn't the average studio's reality though. Also, what my studio generates is anywhere CLOSE to enough to sustain a household!

Lastly, I can say personally that shooting new material is really fun. It's one of many creative endeavors I have, but it's completely unique and fun in a way nothing else is. I have a blast with the models I work with regularly and when you work with two crazy ladies, like I did in my most recent shoot, we all laughed non-stop from beginning to end, even with no tickling! Once a woman has been tied and tickled silly, generally all pretense goes away and there are known to be plenty of non tickle-related shenanigans which take place during my shoots. Just fun.

lioclips said:

I believe for one, there are a number of producers who among various fetishes, produce content which includes tickling - but if more than 50% of that their content isn't tickling, I wouldn't really consider them "tickling producers". The aforementioned notwithstanding, I think the two main reasons so many exist are 1 - They have a concept which they either currently don't see being produced, or feel they could improve upon it and 2 - it's really not that difficult to produce tickling content. Honestly, with a lee, some space and an iphone you could make tickling clips. That isn't a commentary on quality, which is subjective anyway, but just to say how easy one could make the content.

To a much lesser degree, I think it bears mentioning the tickling audience (some foot fetish crossover), is voraciously insatiable!! While the average studio I'm guessing doesn't generate enough income to live on, overall, there is significant money being constantly spent on tickle fetish material. I feel pretty confident making that statement. I dip in and out of the C4S top 50 studios - usually out lol - yet in over 5 years, I've never not had a monthly payout. The minimum is easily made each month (already surpassed for the month of September). Mind you, I'm not bragging and thinking I'm such a great producer - I think it's due to the really awesome customers who've repeatedly supported my studio over the years. That is all to say, I'm a small time producer and I know what income my studio generates, when it almost never has a top clip. I can guess what those studios that routinely have 1 or 3 or 7 top selling clips each week generate. Again, that isn't the average studio's reality though. Also, what my studio generates is anywhere CLOSE to enough to sustain a household!

Lastly, I can say personally that shooting new material is really fun. It's one of many creative endeavors I have, but it's completely unique and fun in a way nothing else is. I have a blast with the models I work with regularly and when you work with two crazy ladies, like I did in my most recent shoot, we all laughed non-stop from beginning to end, even with no tickling! Once a woman has been tied and tickled silly, generally all pretense goes away and there are known to be plenty of non tickle-related shenanigans which take place during my shoots. Just fun.

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Very interesting input! Thank you, and congratulations for your success!

I just thought it'd be fun to do.

Tenebrae said:

IMO you gotta have something to offer, a vision of sorts....

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Yes. Exactly.
More than the sheer number of producers, I'm more puzzled at how similar most of them are. And call me nostalgic, but it seemed 5-10 years ago I was seeing so much more creativity.

Back then, TickleTown.com created a series where they'd video record the meeting of girls on the streets of Seattle and talk them into a session. I'm sure that process resulted in lots of wasted footage of girls who said no, but when they actually talked someone into it, the result was fascinating. Tickling-Post.com created legitimate, non-faked hypnosis videos where girls would be hypnotized and submitted to mental tickle tortures. Meanwhile Tickle Central was asking girls questions while they were tied to a bed -- and tickling them for wrong answers -- but capturing a lot of their personalities on-camera. And speaking of personality, ZenTickling.com specialized in girls-next-door who would talk a lot about their ticklishness while it was being exploited.

I could go on... but these days, it seems to mostly be little talking, little personality, zero creativity -- just a "pro" stripper or fetish-type models tied up and being "athletically" tickled with little conversation, no psychological aspect, and she's often exaggerating for the camera. Can't we bring back some of those previous producers? Or find new ones like them?

Tenebrae said:

Does any of you, especially from the professional side of things, have an explanation?

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Yes. The most straightforward answer is that very few people are aware of just how little money there actually is to be made from selling clips, and as someone else mentioned all it really takes is an iPhone and an adventurous (girl)friend. With startup cost being near zero just to get on the board, there's no reason to not at least try. And if you're smart, it doesn't take much effort to turn at least a little bit of profit, so even if it's only beer money it's at least a fun hobby that kinda-sorta pays for itself after a while, even if it never goes beyond that. Sole Mates is technically profitable at this point; I make more money on an annual basis than I spend, but it's so little that the overall venture itself will never pay for my initial investment without some major breakthrough, like a rush of customs orders or another super-popular model like Mya or Kim (both of whom are no longer making any money, regardless). And that's after having gotten my camera for free and my editing software on sale.

The second reason is, well, for a fetishist it's a fun hobby. I've made a lot of great friends doing this; there are over thirty women on the Sole Mates roster at this point and I still interact regularly with many of them. Kiki handles my finances. Dr. Elle and I get together to drink and play (she works at Fantasy Makers now and we can use the facilities for personal play whenever we like; I just shot a video of it recently). If you honestly don't care about the cash, (and in my case, enjoy trying to come up with new scenarios and such), there are worse ways to spend an afternoon. Tickle shoots are fun, especially when (as I am quite good at) you can generate good chemistry with the model. I like my girls to not look bored or just in it for the paycheck on camera, and I think I succeed. You have to be fun to generate fun.

Also, and this is just for me, but doing the editing and such helped me cut my teeth on doing "real" editing work and I now belong to a local media collective as an SFX consultant and general tech guru. We're shooting a music video soon.

it does not seem to bring in a lot of money to begin with. There must be other ways to make money selling stuff on the Internet that are far more profitable than this.

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Oddly enough, the whole reason I started Sole Mates was because I was out of work and threw a bunch of spaghetti at the wall; I started writing apps, filming clips, and doing a few other things. The only spaghetti that stuck was this one (and the apps, but they're a far larger investment in terms of time). So even after I went back to work, I kept the business running, because why not? $50 a month is $50 a month. And now, after having expanded a bit, I have models approaching me for work. So, things have gotten better, but I'm never going to retire on this stuff. I can use it to pay my electric bill.

More than the sheer number of producers, I'm more puzzled at how similar most of them are.

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It's true. The reason it's happening is because Monkey See that Tickle Abuse is raking it in with their endless "oiled feet in stocks with hairbrush and arms overhead" videos, so Monkey Do hoping to get in on that action. But, as has been said, there's only so much of it to go around and TA's already perfected that format so you're not taking it away from them. Unfortunately, and this is going to ruffle a few feathers...

Can't we bring back some of those previous producers? Or find new ones like them?

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We're out there, but quite frankly, no one seems to give a shit. When I first started Sole Mates, I had a particular "vision" for the kind of content I was going to produce. I'll spare you the gory details unless you want to hear them (and oh boy, is it far different than the original idea I had like fifteen, twenty years ago), but what I quickly discovered was that none of that extra effort generated sales. More specifically nothing that I shot that didn't involve tickling generated sales at all, so I dropped all of it and shifted focus. Now I'm Indie Producer #5833 struggling to get noticed, same as everyone else.

And it's not for lack of trying; I used to come in here constantly and point out to people that whatever they were complaining no one was offering, I was offering. Not only did it not result in any upswing in sales as those people came to check out my store, but no one even came to check out my store. Eventually I just got the idea that they were complaining for the sake of it and didn't actually want the material they were crying about.

Here are some of the things I've done over the years in order to try and stand out from the pack, in terms of content.

Firstly, that old saw, "genuinely ticklish girls". None of my girls fake it. NONE. I tell them flat out "Do not exaggerate. Do not act. I want to capture YOU, your personality, so just relax and act naturally." I also don't work with fetish models, except on rare occasions... so all of that shit about "real girls next door"? I get them. I've gotten over twenty of them, of all shapes, sizes, and ethnicities. Dude just posted right above this thread "where the black women at?" when like a month ago I just posted a compilation featuring FOUR of them. Barely legal, MILF, black, white, Asian, Latina, BBW, even the elusive Indian and Goth, including a model from this very forum. You can't get more diverse than that. I can get a girl screaming the safeword in thirty seconds if I put my mind to it, and I have the video to prove it. So, no fakers. None whatsoever.

And what about the girls who "really love it"? You guys want girls who are totally into what they're doing, right? 'cept for the handful of you that genuinely want to see them suffer, that is (...and I don't judge - I love it when I can give you both). Nearly every girl I've worked with talks about how much fun she has working with me. With a few exceptions, they all ask to come back. All of them. Especially over the last two or three years. I've said a few times now that I have to repeatedly turn them away because the income just isn't there. Think about that for a moment, guys; I've got girls begging me to tickle them and I can't afford it. Sora was asking me when we could shoot again before I was even done packing up my camera. You think I like having to tell a ticklish, eager young thing "Sorry hon, nobody bought your clips so I can't hire you again"?

Secondly... speaking of variety, I worked with a clown. Not some escort I stuck in greasepaint; I found an actual, honest-to-goodness, fire-breathing, juggling, sword-swallowing (one of the only twelve in the world), acrobatic clown from New Orleans. It was one of the silliest shoots I've ever done; she was genuinely ticklish and an absolute blast to work with. To this day I consider her one of my crown jewels. She's sold bupkis.

Like F/F? I hired a gal and she brought a fantastic friend. I decided to do the shoot like a wrestling match (as best I could at the last minute, anyway); I had them dress up as martial artists and "trash talk" each other before the "match", which was an utter treat. Each tickled the crap out of the other and I ended it by tying them together and not ending it until one tickled the other into safewording, then the loser had to massage the winner's feet. Sound great? I showed it to Dr. Elle recently and she said, "This is GOLD." The punters didn't think so. I lost a bundle.

I once did an F/F shoot with my two most popular models ever. The intentions were there, but neither of them could tickle very well (and this is one of the reasons all of my videos are M/F except on rare occasions - I can tickle better than anyone I can hire, and my girls agree), so meh. That one's on me.

I also did an F/F shoot with two real-life bisexual play partners; I just turned the camera on and let them "go". It was great; they both knew the ins and outs of one another better than I could ever hope to, were both kinky AF so they wildly enjoyed what they were doing, and one of them suggested that she be tickled while holding up two glasses of water that she wasn't allowed to drop. I'm pretty sure no one's ever done that scenario before.

Just recently I went with Dr. Elle to Fantasy Makers, and we basically just turned the camera on and filmed our entire play session. I released the first segment un-cut, complete with tying up, banter, moving the camera around, all of the "behind the scenes" stuff you guys say that no one bothers to include.

I've done segments where the girl had to guess what I was writing on her soles (and failed miserably), a lengthy, scripted custom for a guy who wanted me to "punish" a girl for smelly feet and scribble all over them/clean them off with toothpaste(?!)... I've even shot two FX-based videos where the model was bisected in two and I tickled her disembodied feet while her top half laughed out of reach. (And it was all real; I tickled her in both shots and synched them up).

But when I come here and tell people I've done this stuff, they consume all of the free content and then go on their merry way. Why should I spend an afternoon painstakingly masking out someone's elbow to pull off that bisection illusion when I can just slap a girl in stocks and go to town? I don't even get so much as a "thanks for trying" for my efforts.

I'm sitting on a concept right now for lack of actors that is basically a live-action Tammi the Tickle Witch, with actual magic FX, costumes, and all of that jazz. But y'know what? If I do ever film it, or that Portal parody I've had in the back of my head for like two years now, it won't be because I think anyone'll buy it, it'll be because I want to do it. Because bluntly? You guys don't reward the producers who do think outside of the box.

I just recently worked with a former TA model that, judging by the forum posts around here, was a fan favorite. You guys loved the fuck out of her. I post my previews, I get a few "wow, hot!" and no sales. Read that again; a fan favorite that worked for one of the biggest studios in the business who generated positive buzz from her previews and she's currently sitting at $20 in sales. $20.

And yes, I'm a little crabby about that. Not that I think everyone should be throwing their money at me (although I'm not going to stop you...), but at least stop coming here and complaining that no one's trying, while blatantly ignoring the ones who are. You want us to do new shit? Make it worth the effort.

Just my two shekels, anyway. Don't haggle for my gourd.

SoleMates said:

Dude just posted right above this thread "where the black women at?" when like a month ago I just posted a compilation featuring FOUR of them.

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Dude who posted "where the black women" at here. FWIW, I wasn't complaining in my post. Was just curious about other opinions.

Coming back to your post here, specifically about sales. I think that laughinggas summed it up perfectly. Too much competition (because as you mentioned, all it takes is a phone and a girlfriend), coupled with too much piracy , finishing it off with a VERY small market relatively speaking. Regardless of whether people complain or not, it seems as far as sales talk goes, unless the market exponentially grows, this is where the status will remain , no matter how much quality and diversity producers put out there.

mealzonwheels said:

Dude who posted "where the black women" at here. FWIW, I wasn't complaining in my post.

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Hi, sorry. Didn't mean it to sound like I was attacking you. Just using it as an example of how difficult it is to market around here. The material is just not getting to the right eyeballs somehow.

SoleMates said:

You want us to do new shit? Make it worth the effort.

Just my two shekels, anyway. Don't haggle for my gourd.

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What a beautifully articulate and intelligent response. Thanks for writing it.

My two cents on your site, and with all the just-one-man's-opinion disclaimers fully applied, is that while your site does offer lots of varied kinds of videos, your sales would be much better if you did exactly two things differently: (1) consistent legitimate bondage and (2) consistent attractive women.

I'm not saying there's zero audience for playful, no bondage or light bondage shoots, nor am I saying there's zero audience for heavy or older women 'lees, but I think you seriously reduce your appeal with either choice. These two aspects aren't just a "genre" that TA figured out -- they're more like foundational principles.

After all, even though I'm the guy calling for more creativity, video aren't good just because they're different -- a 400 lb transvestite in a wig as a 'lee might have never been done, but that doesn't mean it would sell well. Lots of original ideas can still be bad ideas.

Let's say you were to book only attractive, young, then women for bondage shoots. Then, once they're completely restrained, ask them if they're ticklish, and test them a little. If they seem okay with it, proceed. (But if they're not, sell it on a separate bondage site. Calm down everyone!) But most will let you tickle them, and I think you'd easily quadruple your revenue with a "Surprise for the Bondage Model" series. Not exactly a super radical idea, but it would be enough to give your brand an identity. Or... something else, in keeping with my two principles.

brotherted said:

What a beautifully articulate and intelligent response. Thanks for writing it.

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No problem. I don't always agree with you, but your feedback is usually solid. I'm always happy to hear it.

Now... not that you're wrong, but...

(1) consistent legitimate bondage

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When I first started Sole Mates, I didn't do bondage at all. For one thing, I'm not into it, and I felt pretty strongly that I should make the kinds of videos I wanted to see. I didn't think my taste was that out there. But, that's irrelevant. More practically speaking, bondage requires two things; training and money.

Training; I know a lot of people who are bondage enthusiasts, and it's kind of insane how much you have to know about it in order to do it safely, comfortably, and effectively. I've been picking bits and pieces up here and there, but to do anything beyond the basic cuffs that I have now... expense. Bondage shit costs a lot of money. I bought basic leather wrist and ankle cuffs prior to my shoot with Lilah and it ran me $150. When your shoots barely break even, that's money you can't afford. It also doesn't help that none of my actual furniture is bondage friendly, so... new furniture? Rent a studio? Go to a club? Money. No has. The only reason I shot at Fantasy Makers is because Dr. Elle got me in for free.

So again, if you guys want the fancy stuff, you have to make it so we can pay for it. I just bought a new set of ankle cuffs with toe straps actually, got 'em cheap, but will they cause an increase in sales enough to justify it? Only time will tell.

and (2) consistent attractive women.

I'm not saying there's zero audience for playful, no bondage or light bondage shoots, nor am I saying there's zero audience for heavy or older women 'lees, but I think you seriously reduce your appeal with either choice. These two aspects aren't just a "genre" that TA figured out -- they're more like foundational principles.

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Again, you're not wrong. However, here's the thing, and I mentioned this; these women get positive feedback. (And, oddly enough, the BBWs sold pretty well and actually got me some thankful fan mail.) People Thumbs-Up my previews, comment positively on my pictures, follow me on Instagram, all of that stuff - but they don't buy. If a fraction of the people who took the time to tell me my latest previews were "hot" actually bought the clip, there wouldn't be a problem. Summer, that TA model I mentioned? Fan favorite. $20.

It ain't the fat girls dragging my studio down.

video aren't good just because they're different -- a 400 lb transvestite in a wig as a 'lee might have never been done, but that doesn't mean it would sell well. Lots of original ideas can still be bad ideas.

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I hired the clown because the Images forum faps themselves raw over Harley Quinn. I'm not just doing this stuff at random, y'know. There was a basis for that.

This last one, though...

Then, once they're completely restrained, ask them if they're ticklish, and test them a little. If they seem okay with it, proceed. (But if they're not, sell it on a separate bondage site. Calm down everyone!) But most will let you tickle them, and I think you'd easily quadruple your revenue with a "Surprise for the Bondage Model" series. Not exactly a super radical idea, but it would be enough to give your brand an identity.

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No. Abso-fucking-lutely-not. You do NOT tie up a model and then spring something new on her while she's unable to do anything about it. That gets you branded "creepy rape guy" ("It's all about the implication") and she never sets foot in your place again. And when you're a dude operating out of his apartment, it is absolutely imperative that you generate a feeling of comfort and safety for these girls who have absolutely no idea if you're the next Craigslist Killer.

None of the girls next door types show up with escorts. Seasoned bondage models sometimes do - but again, they cost more, and the money's not there.

It doesn't matter if other producers have gotten away with it in the past. It's wrong and I will not touch that kind of idea with a ten foot pole.

Because Capitalism.

SoleMates said:

No. Abso-fucking-lutely-not. You do NOT tie up a model and then spring something new on her while she's unable to do anything about it. That gets you branded "creepy rape guy" ("It's all about the implication") and she never sets foot in your place again. And when you're a dude operating out of his apartment, it is absolutely imperative that you generate a feeling of comfort and safety for these girls who have absolutely no idea if you're the next Craigslist Killer.

None of the girls next door types show up with escorts. Seasoned bondage models sometimes do - but again, they cost more, and the money's not there.

It doesn't matter if other producers have gotten away with it in the past. It's wrong and I will not touch that kind of idea with a ten foot pole.

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I'm always shocked at how routinely people think you're just allowed to do whatever you please to someone who's agreed to shoot a video with you. As though there's not a shitload of negotiation and boundaries to set up beforehand.

Like dude legit thought he was schooling you there. At no point did he think "surprised a bound woman in your apartment with something that causes a panic response" was anything but a million dollar idea.

I have so many dreams centered around Tickling. Whether it's running my own studio/dungeon/ stories etc.

My Bf tells me... "It's not about what YOU want... it's about what your clients want". And quite frankly... all I want to do is what I WANT. LOL. Not that I can't make consessions to fulfill fantasies but... as I haven't had anyone to Ler in years.... I've become quite greedy in my fantasies... so... maybe most of my dreams have to stay dreams. Maybe not. Who knows... I still love contemplating them and trying to figure out ways to make them come true. I guess as long as you stay true to yourself.... you can't go wrong. As long as one isn't looking to become a millionaire at this. There can only be so many Hugh Hefners... *wah!*

Thankfully it's not about becoming a millionaire that gets me (though who woulden't want that...) But... for me it's about making that one or two videos that go down in history as some of the best tickling videos ever made. That would be the ultimate high for me... the best trophy of all. Not an ego thing.... just a ... I made something the community LOVES and respects. THAT would mean everything to me. But... even I know now that probably will never happen. Too many different variations of what people are into.... but... I'll still try.

CapturedDoll said:

There can only be so many Hugh Hefners... *wah!*

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*tries to imagine what it could be like living in a tickling mansion, surrounded by beautiful girls who tickle each other all day long, from the basement to the attic, from the pool to the garden*

BOOOOOOOOOM!

*mind blown*

Thank you, Doll... I guess

Tenebrae said:

*tries to imagine what it could be like living in a tickling mansion, surrounded by beautiful girls who tickle each other all day long, from the basement to the attic, from the pool to the garden*

BOOOOOOOOOM!

*mind blown*

Thank you, Doll... I guess

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LOL!!!! I'm tellin ya... I can see it now... XD

CapturedDoll said:

I have so many dreams centered around Tickling. Whether it's running my own studio/dungeon/ stories etc.

My Bf tells me... "It's not about what YOU want... it's about what your clients want". And quite frankly... all I want to do is what I WANT. LOL. Not that I can't make consessions to fulfill fantasies but... as I haven't had anyone to Ler in years.... I've become quite greedy in my fantasies... so... maybe most of my dreams have to stay dreams. Maybe not. Who knows... I still love contemplating them and trying to figure out ways to make them come true. I guess as long as you stay true to yourself.... you can't go wrong. As long as one isn't looking to become a millionaire at this. There can only be so many Hugh Hefners... *wah!*

Thankfully it's not about becoming a millionaire that gets me (though who woulden't want that...) But... for me it's about making that one or two videos that go down in history as some of the best tickling videos ever made. That would be the ultimate high for me... the best trophy of all. Not an ego thing.... just a ... I made something the community LOVES and respects. THAT would mean everything to me. But... even I know now that probably will never happen. Too many different variations of what people are into.... but... I'll still try.

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I wouldn't sell yourself short! That's the thing about following your own vision - it'll be something nobody has done, or can do, because nobody else is you. IMO that is how you are most likely to produce something classic; doing something everyone knows, but in a way they've never seen. So long as you don't have to overextend yourself (i.e. spend too much money getting started), go for it says I!

SoleMates said:

No problem. I don't always agree with you, but your feedback is usually solid. I'm always happy to hear it.

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Thanks.

Bondage shit costs a lot of money.

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Doesn't have to. Try four old, silk, men's neckties to tie a girl spread-eagle on a bed. Old neckties are soft and don't hurt her, but they're also completely strong.

Now let's get to the good stuff.

No. Abso-fucking-lutely-not. You do NOT tie up a model and then spring something new on her while she's unable to do anything about it.

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I see this all or nothing response quite a bit, and I suppose it's at least part miscommunication.
Imagine my scenario, and a bondage model is tied up. Do you believe a quick swipe of the foot with an index finger, or a poke on the sides that literally lasts less than one second will brand you as a "rape guy"? One second? Then you ask her, "do you mind if I do a little tickling?"

For all the stridence and emotional reaction that I've seen on this subject, I simply think it's not rooted in what is actually proposed -- it's as if people are channeling other terribly negative and fundamentally different past experiences than something that lasts a few seconds, followed by a permission request. There's just literally no actual bondage model in America that would react to the scenario I've described, in the way you've described.

In fact, in the actual bondage video world, what I'm talking about, tickling and otherwise, happens all the time. Models don't feel abused just because every single, tiny and fleeting detail hasn't been laboriously communicated in advance -- they feel abused if they're not respected and listened to should they have a problem with something, or if they feel something is profoundly different from the whole of what they expected. One second? Two seconds? Nah.

Perhaps we'll never agree on this, but I wanted to respond to make my point-of-view clear.