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Do nice guys finish last? Your opinion.

Laughthirsty Lr

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Oct 25, 2017
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This came up recently on another website that I'm a member of and I was just wondering how many people there are out there who believe this to be true. I always thought that it was just something that bullies and jerks said to quiet, kind guys because they believe that being nice is a weakness or makes a man a doormat.
So *is* kindness, being sympathetic, sensitive, softhearted, nice and polite a recipe for weakness in a man?
Is it something to be ashamed of? Should nice guys be ostracized and exiled to a distant island so, that no one has to put up with them any longer?
 
That's just an excuse that people use for losing, or in the case of dating, not asking for what they want.
There are plenty of nice guys who win.
There are plenty of assholes who win; it doesn't mean they won because they were assholes.
 
That's just an excuse that people use for losing, or in the case of dating, not asking for what they want.
There are plenty of nice guys who win.
There are plenty of assholes who win; it doesn't mean they won because they were assholes.


I totally agree with Wolf.
 
This came up recently on another website that I'm a member of and I was just wondering how many people there are out there who believe this to be true. I always thought that it was just something that bullies and jerks said to quiet, kind guys because they believe that being nice is a weakness or makes a man a doormat.
So *is* kindness, being sympathetic, sensitive, softhearted, nice and polite a recipe for weakness in a man?
Is it something to be ashamed of? Should nice guys be ostracized and exiled to a distant island so, that no one has to put up with them any longer?

Not at all. Wolf already said it well, so I don't have much more to add.

I think what gives you this perception is that life is at its core both absurd and unfair. The system works against you. The dice are loaded. People cheat their way out of their responsibilities. Faith goes unrewarded, trust is not reciprocated and God does not seem to listen.

All that sucks. But does it mean that you should lower your standard to that of the other scumbags? Of course not. Be the change you wanna see in the world. I don't mind going against the trend. I don't mind thinking differently. I don't mind that my system of values is more than 4000 years old; it's all good. I piss the idiots off and gather the admiration of those who truly matter. The fact that I live in a world where the idiots are a majority should not affect my values. What I believe to be right does not become wrong because a majority of vermin despise my ideas.

Now on the topic of kindness, don't fall into your own trap. Kindness does not equate weakness. It is only so if your kindness is directed at the wrong kind of people. Your compassion should go to the people worthy of receiving it, not the people who will abuse you or make this world a hellish place to live. By showing your heart and supporting the people who truly deserve it. You must be merciless with the "bullies and jerks", and reserve your kindness to those who should receive it. It's the bullies who deserve to be ostracized. Not you. Not the valuable people.
 
Not at all. Wolf already said it well, so I don't have much more to add.

I think what gives you this perception is that life is at its core both absurd and unfair. The system works against you. The dice are loaded. People cheat their way out of their responsibilities. Faith goes unrewarded, trust is not reciprocated and God does not seem to listen.

All that sucks. But does it mean that you should lower your standard to that of the other scumbags? Of course not. Be the change you wanna see in the world. I don't mind going against the trend. I don't mind thinking differently. I don't mind that my system of values is more than 4000 years old; it's all good. I piss the idiots off and gather the admiration of those who truly matter. The fact that I live in a world where the idiots are a majority should not affect my values. What I believe to be right does not become wrong because a majority of vermin despise my ideas.

Now on the topic of kindness, don't fall into your own trap. Kindness does not equate weakness. It is only so if your kindness is directed at the wrong kind of people. Your compassion should go to the people worthy of receiving it, not the people who will abuse you or make this world a hellish place to live. By showing your heart and supporting the people who truly deserve it. You must be merciless with the "bullies and jerks", and reserve your kindness to those who should receive it. It's the bullies who deserve to be ostracized. Not you. Not the valuable people.

Very nice. Truly you are much wiser than I originally thought. Thank you for responding.
 
Depends on the mitigating circumstances of the situation.

In general, the question is too broad for a direct answer.

There are women who go for both nice guys who treat them like their the best things of their lives and also women who go for bad guys who like nothing more than to party.

It all depends.

The same applies even in fields like politics, criminal/civil law, and even the private sector.
 
Depends on the mitigating circumstances of the situation.

In general, the question is too broad for a direct answer.

There are women who go for both nice guys who treat them like their the best things of their lives and also women who go for bad guys who like nothing more than to party.

It all depends.

The same applies even in fields like politics, criminal/civil law, and even the private sector.

Good point.
 
Whether we're talking about the stereotypical definition of the nice guy, OR ALPHA... perceived as "strong"... can charm women easily... the NOT SO NICE guy... "machismo"... what is becoming known as the Red Pill Society.... Most of these men are quite weak. You have to realize that- and I'll go with the Alphas term for this conversation- That... they have their own issues too that cause them to act like that. It's for a lot of reasons how they act up. But I also know that their are plenty of well adjusted men out there... might still have hangups or... habits, faults. But... for every creep their's 2 good guys. And for every bitch their are 2 sweet ones. I do believe that. This society while we hear about the stupid so much more... still have so many that are good. Or understand equality and the coming together of our unique lives is a journey for both sexes.

Women can be drawn to a perceived strength... or fault... because it reflects something within them that they can relate to. You can't sum up women and what they respond to in one gigantic basket. Nor men. People are too unique for that. You may yourself have issues that you need to work on. We all do. And fix them in time. Dating mistakes are part of it. Enjoy your life, strive to make it nice, and deal with what comes with grace of heart. Kindness will always be respected to those who see it as a strength. As a woman, I recognize it when I see it. As long as it's not a front or mask. Eventually... masks come off.
 
This came up recently on another website that I'm a member of and I was just wondering how many people there are out there who believe this to be true. I always thought that it was just something that bullies and jerks said to quiet, kind guys because they believe that being nice is a weakness or makes a man a doormat.
So *is* kindness, being sympathetic, sensitive, softhearted, nice and polite a recipe for weakness in a man?
Is it something to be ashamed of? Should nice guys be ostracized and exiled to a distant island so, that no one has to put up with them any longer?

Sure, I'll keep it real. The kinds of guys with the traits that lead to "finishing last" in the first place are the ones that couldn't get away with being assholes. The guys that are hot/strong/cunning Alphas generally don't "need" to be nice to get what they want. The guys that finish last don't finish last because of their niceness. They finish last because they tend not to be the Alphas. You'll notice that non-Alpha assholes also don't win. So, if a guy is a 3/10, and he hears "nice guys finish last", he better not think that being a douchebag is gonna do him any good. Being a douchebag is a luxury only the Alphas can afford.

I will also say, however, that what 'finishing first' means will depend on the person. i.e. does is mean getting the most sex with the hottest partners, the most money for the relatively least amount of effort, etc? Or something else? So it just depends.
 
Interesting opinions and points of view. The first time I ever heard someone say it, I was a kid, watching a Superman movie and some jerk said it to Clark which is really kind of funny now that I think of it again. Here this cocky guy is, unknowingly talking this way to the strongest being on Earth who could easily thump his head off with little effort and Clark is like "Okay, man. Whatever."
 
This came up recently on another website that I'm a member of and I was just wondering how many people there are out there who believe this to be true. I always thought that it was just something that bullies and jerks said to quiet, kind guys because they believe that being nice is a weakness or makes a man a doormat.
So *is* kindness, being sympathetic, sensitive, softhearted, nice and polite a recipe for weakness in a man?
Is it something to be ashamed of? Should nice guys be ostracized and exiled to a distant island so, that no one has to put up with them any longer?

"Nice Guys Finish Last" started out as a sports saying. Then it was co-opted into a business saying. And most recently, it's something people say online in those "pickup artist" groups and in the Men's Rights Movement.

In sports it came out organically in a conversation, but in business and in the pickup/MRA community it was co-opted for a specific reason - to excuse the fact that someone wants to do something shitty that a decent person would never do.

Nice guys finish according to how well they perform. There are nice guys in business, and in life, who do spectacularly well. And there are PLENTY of non-nice guys who will do absolutely anything, but are huge losers who never get out of first gear. I would say, based on my experience, most people who don't give a fuck are losers who are angry and don't know why, and they never win at anything. But you don't hear from those people, obviously.

In a sexual context, frankly I don't think nice/not-nice has anything to do with it. If you have charisma, you're going to find partners, and if you don't you're going to struggle. Some guys try to become the friend, or "nice guy," in an attempt to worm their way into a woman's life, but in reality that's not a nice guy, it's just another, more passive form of shitty behavior. In other words, if you're only being nice because you hope it will eventually get you laid, then you're not actually nice.

Some people who discover that they can't get laid on the strength of their personality or appearance (or succeed in business by their work-ethic and intelligence) will do literally anything to accomplish it - and in order to live with themselves, they tell themselves something like "Nice guys finish last."
 
Very nice. Truly you are much wiser than I originally thought. Thank you for responding.

Hahaha, thanks :blush:

tips fedora

Sir, you've got class!

Sure, I'll keep it real. The kinds of guys with the traits that lead to "finishing last" in the first place are the ones that couldn't get away with being assholes. The guys that are hot/strong/cunning Alphas generally don't "need" to be nice to get what they want. The guys that finish last don't finish last because of their niceness. They finish last because they tend not to be the Alphas. You'll notice that non-Alpha assholes also don't win. So, if a guy is a 3/10, and he hears "nice guys finish last", he better not think that being a douchebag is gonna do him any good. Being a douchebag is a luxury only the Alphas can afford.

I will also say, however, that what 'finishing first' means will depend on the person. i.e. does is mean getting the most sex with the hottest partners, the most money for the relatively least amount of effort, etc? Or something else? So it just depends.

I highlighted what I think is the most important segment of your reflection. This is key. The fact that there are successful assholes does not mean that they got successful because they were assholes. However, the reverse is sometimes true: the exhilarating impression of being better than others can lead to very bad behavior.

Nice guys finish according to how well they perform.

If only it were true. Unfortunately, life is not that fair. There are people who perform very well, and get nothing in return. Conversely, there are people who perform awfully and reap all the benefits of the other guys' work. My dad would say that this is why you need to work extra-hard if you're not one of those able to profit from the others, but even that is no guarantee.

I agree with everything you said except with this one sentence.
 
It is worth noting that this was said by Leo Durocher, then the manager of a Major League Baseball team. I always liked the rebuttal by Sandy Koufax.

Koufax's comments must be understood in the context of MLB at that time. There were no divisions; each of the two leagues had ten teams, so fourth place was slightly above average, being fourth out of ten. Here is what Koufax said:

There is such a thing as talent in baseball.
Nice guys with no talent finish last.
Nice guys with some talent finish fourth.
Nice guys with lots of talent finish first.
 
It is worth noting that this was said by Leo Durocher, then the manager of a Major League Baseball team. I always liked the rebuttal by Sandy Koufax.

Koufax's comments must be understood in the context of MLB at that time. There were no divisions; each of the two leagues had ten teams, so fourth place was slightly above average, being fourth out of ten. Here is what Koufax said:

There is such a thing as talent in baseball.
Nice guys with no talent finish last.
Nice guys with some talent finish fourth.
Nice guys with lots of talent finish first.

Very, very well said.

and, regarding Mr. Koufax (a truly nice guy, with a thunderbolt for an arm):

He was an aristocrat in spikes, with a gentleman's carriage and an assassin's arsenal--his fastball and curve. His last six seasons are mythic: 129-47 with a 2.19 ERA. He threw 27 complete games with a painfully arthritic arm in 1966 and then quit. He slipped into a private life fundamentally no different from his days as a beloved public icon: unfailingly true to his ideals.He always put team before self, modesty before fame and God before the World Series. https://www.si.com/vault/1999/07/12...est-but-those-who-brought-us-the-greatest-joy
 
Anthony Joshua - an all round nice guy, a soft spoken gentleman. He is boxing's heavyweight champion of the world.
 
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