Over-friendly, or Sexual Harassment? Can the women of the forum share their thoughts?

Very interesting charts on the Economist (graph pasted below). However, the high percentages in "Asking to go for a drink" chart troubles me. Up to 25% of younger women in the U.S. feel that men asking them to go out for a drink can come across as sexual harassment.

I can completely understand that the qualification for harassment, when it comes to asking a woman out, is totally based on the context. For example, are you badgering them, or asking at a really inappropriate time. Or is it innocent, and you simply wanted to ask a woman out that you had been speaking to for a few minutes to an hour or so.

For someone that was very shy growing up, this validates the fears I had growing up about asking women out. My concern was that I would be labeled a "creep" just for showing interest. I also am troubled by how high it can get in the United States (up to 25% for younger women, and even ~15% for men). Count me in that 15% when I was 18 so long ago...

A lot of men are already frightened enough to walk up to a girl just to talk to them...must we now be afraid that even flirting or asking out on a date can be sexual harassment? Or does simply showing respect, politeness and decency within the context of the situation enough? What do the ladies of the TMF think? The gentlemen are also more than free to offer their opinions.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/gra.../nNA/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatch

Well, either a person has natural chemistry with someone or they don't. Relationships are organic, and develop naturally. It's wise not to get hung on charts or articles. (Or ANY comment section lol) That would be like me opening up a Cosmo mag and looking for the "TOP 10 WAYS I CAN TURN ON MY MAN". I won't do it. Chances are my Man wont like ANY of it, and has his own roster of likes and dislikes.

Now, enviornment is something heavily to be considered. Like, asking a co worker out. I use to be asked out all the time. Sometimes I went just to feel out the situation. Soetimes I didn't. Sometimes we even went to Strip Clubs! An after work thing on occassion just for drinks and adult entertainment. Now... most women would think thats WAY too much to be asked during work to go to the local strip for lunch or an after work chill out. Not me. I'm fine with it.

And while some did flirt at various jobs in general, I just let them down politely. No big deal. Everyone should be entitled to an introductory "Would you ike to go out with me... with no strings attached for more. Aka the flirting usually stopped I was lucky though in this regard. But not always.

To me harrassment becomes an issue when I say no. Once should be enough. Some guys have followed me all over the mall. Once I slept with one of my bosses. Another boss I walked out on the job. Human beings naturally want to interact with each other. But every person is different in what bothers them, and where "the line" is.

If you whistle at me say... I'll be fine with that. Even smile in your direction. If you honk the horn at me, I'll be scared (caught off guard like that) and PISSED. So... see? I'm different, everyone is. And each interaction has it's own set of rules. So, don't fall into a way of thinking that prevents you from asking out, looking or even flirting. But some situations you HAVE to keep the flirting OUT of it. The women that liked to be flirted with, asked out what have you... it depends if they are interested BACK -that's the complicated part for a lot of people. What constitutes interest. And chemistry. And who could really explain that fully when humans are so truly unique. Yeah there are social faux paus and such most know.... but... even then, each individual has their own thought process on what is acceptable, and what will get a drink dumped on your head.

Tickaler said:

Very interesting charts on the Economist (graph pasted below). However, the high percentages in "Asking to go for a drink" chart troubles me. Up to 25% of younger women in the U.S. feel that men asking them to go out for a drink can come across as sexual harassment.

I can completely understand that the qualification for harassment, when it comes to asking a woman out, is totally based on the context. For example, are you badgering them, or asking at a really inappropriate time. Or is it innocent, and you simply wanted to ask a woman out that you had been speaking to for a few minutes to an hour or so.

For someone that was very shy growing up, this validates the fears I had growing up about asking women out. My concern was that I would be labeled a "creep" just for showing interest. I also am troubled by how high it can get in the United States (up to 25% for younger women, and even ~15% for men). Count me in that 15% when I was 18 so long ago...

A lot of men are already frightened enough to walk up to a girl just to talk to them...must we now be afraid that even flirting or asking out on a date can be sexual harassment? Or does simply showing respect, politeness and decency within the context of the situation enough? What do the ladies of the TMF think? The gentlemen are also more than free to offer their opinions.

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25% of the women and around 15% of the men responded to that question in a way that troubles you.
75% of the women and around 85% of the men did not feel that way. That's a vast majority of each group.

I'm not so sure what you're so troubled about.

Tickaler said:

Very interesting charts on the Economist (graph pasted below). However, the high percentages in "Asking to go for a drink" chart troubles me. Up to 25% of younger women in the U.S. feel that men asking them to go out for a drink can come across as sexual harassment.

I can completely understand that the qualification for harassment, when it comes to asking a woman out, is totally based on the context. For example, are you badgering them, or asking at a really inappropriate time. Or is it innocent, and you simply wanted to ask a woman out that you had been speaking to for a few minutes to an hour or so.

For someone that was very shy growing up, this validates the fears I had growing up about asking women out. My concern was that I would be labeled a "creep" just for showing interest. I also am troubled by how high it can get in the United States (up to 25% for younger women, and even ~15% for men). Count me in that 15% when I was 18 so long ago...

A lot of men are already frightened enough to walk up to a girl just to talk to them...must we now be afraid that even flirting or asking out on a date can be sexual harassment? Or does simply showing respect, politeness and decency within the context of the situation enough? What do the ladies of the TMF think? The gentlemen are also more than free to offer their opinions.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/gra.../nNA/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatch

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If a guy you didn't show interest in asked you to go get a drink, would you describe that as showing respect, decency, and politeness?

Seems there were two different questions being looked at. Paraphrasing, "wanna go for a drink?", and "wanna go on a date?". To me, totally different. To me (but what do I know), a date would be, go out to lunch/dinner, a movie, a walk in the park, and so on. Something might click, it might not. If nothing clicks, them's the breaks. Or, maybe there's a "let's do this again sometime". Now, the "go for a drink", I can see why a good number of females (yes, 25% is a good number) would be leery of such a question. Knowing how guys think, get her out there, and, hey, how's about another drink. In a short while, the gal has had one too many, and ..... And, I also know that "go for a drink" might just mean coffee or such, but if you're a guy with even half a brain, I'd hope that would be the question. Just some thoughts to provoke everyone.

edit: I totally ignored the harassment part. That 25%, well, they could consider that harassment, I guess; not a female, so I won't second guess them. But, think about all the recent allegations regarding some top figures in politics and the entertainment field. Do you blame these gals for their attitude? I sure don't.

Not to split hairs, but I would say that you misread the article and or the charts. The article said up to 25% of women under the age of 30 in France would consider being asked out for a drink to be harassment. Looking at the chart (bottom right) it appears that about 12.5% of women (the red line) in the US in the youngest age group consider it harassment. And almost none of the women in Britain, Germany or Sweden consider it harassment.

Pay attention to body language and social cues, but accept the fact that you can't read another person's mind. Any time you ask someone out, you're risking rejection. If you do get rejected, accept it gracefully and move on. Don't let the fear of rejection prevent you from putting yourself out there.

....in France....yes, I did not notice that little detail. Still, I stand by my argument for us in the U.S.

And, Sensual, your second paragraph - good advice. I'm at the age I don't deal with such things, but you young whipper-snappers........

Thanks rdhd. And I was actually addressing the OP with the misread the article part. I should have replied with quote, being late as I was to the thread. I thought you made a good point actually.

Wolf said:

25% of the women and around 15% of the men responded to that question in a way that troubles you.
75% of the women and around 85% of the men did not feel that way. That's a vast majority of each group.

I'm not so sure what you're so troubled about.

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I think it's clear what I am troubled about. Because it shows there is a measure of guys out there that make women feel harassed for being asked to go for a drink. Essentially a few bad dude apples ruining it for everyone else. Doesn't matter if majority don't feel that way. It may not trouble you, but it troubles me.

GirlMeetsTickle said:

If a guy you didn't show interest in asked you to go get a drink, would you describe that as showing respect, decency, and politeness?

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Like I said in the the post, would be based on the context and how it was asked.

Sensualswitch10 said:

Not to split hairs, but I would say that you misread the article and or the charts. The article said up to 25% of women under the age of 30 in France would consider being asked out for a drink to be harassment. Looking at the chart (bottom right) it appears that about 12.5% of women (the red line) in the US in the youngest age group consider it harassment. And almost none of the women in Britain, Germany or Sweden consider it harassment.

Pay attention to body language and social cues, but accept the fact that you can't read another person's mind. Any time you ask someone out, you're risking rejection. If you do get rejected, accept it gracefully and move on. Don't let the fear of rejection prevent you from putting yourself out there.

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Yea that was an issue when I was younger. Good advice period, though. The article just struck a chord with me given it presents a view of how a measure of women feel when being asked to go for a drink. So when I was younger, and only thought about how I felt, I hadn't considered why they might not welcome the interaction.

Tickaler said:

I think it's clear what I am troubled about. Because it shows there is a measure of guys out there that make women feel harassed for being asked to go for a drink. Doesn't matter if majority don't feel that way. It may not trouble you, but it troubles me.

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Funny, because your original post indicated you were troubled about something completely different:

Tickaler said:

For someone that was very shy growing up, this validates the fears I had growing up about asking women out. My concern was that I would be labeled a "creep" just for showing interest. I also am troubled by how high it can get in the United States (up to 25% for younger women, and even ~15% for men). Count me in that 15% when I was 18 so long ago...
A lot of men are already frightened enough to walk up to a girl just to talk to them...must we now be afraid that even flirting or asking out on a date can be sexual harassment? Or does simply showing respect, politeness and decency within the context of the situation enough?

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That's concern for the men trying to pick up women, not the women who are feeling harassed.

If I ever step out of bounds accidentally or make a woman on this forum uncomfortable PLEASE DO NOT HESITATE to TELL ME in a PM and I'll immediately apologize.

I don't think it'll happen and I hope it never will. I respect women as well as everyone else here on the TMF.

Wolf said:

Funny, because your original post indicated you were troubled about something completely different:




That's concern for the men trying to pick up women, not the women who are feeling harassed.

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Always enjoy your attempts at breaking down other people's arguments, even when directed at me. Not gonna work this time though.

In my first post, in addition to me being afraid that I would be considered a "creep" when I was growing up, I also said, "count me in that 15% of men that believe it was harassment as well (yes the stats are lower, as Sensual corrected earlier). So yes, I was worried from my perspective as a younger dude...but I also believed that women getting asked out for a drink could be harassing them...based on me "counting" myself in the group that believed that was the case. If I didn't care about them being harassed, then I would have been asking women out for a drink much more frequently.

In closure, thanks for trying to make an argument out of my former social anxieties and younger issues, and for indirectly pointing out I'm not articulate enough to make the full statement of my feelings known in my first post.

Hello,

It seems the article troubled the OP because his interpretation of the data hit him in his insecurities. I know this feeling well, and have to label it when I recognize it in my own life.

Thanks,

K

kcantankerous said:

Hello,

It seems the article troubled the OP because his interpretation of the data hit him in his insecurities. I know this feeling well, and have to label it when I recognize it in my own life.

Thanks,

K

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Sorry to hear. Fortunately, haven't suffered due to these issues in a long time. SAS Forums helped when I was younger: http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/