Shhhh! You're gonna wake up the Wolf again, you fool!
Seriously, though, the discussion seems to be proceeding in a much more civilized manner now~ I'm glad
Ya got something to say, pal...say it to me.
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Stop Calling Grown Women "Girls"
- Thread starter chicago
- Start date
Ya got something to say, pal...say it to me.
No problem.
And I can see what you mean. I agree it is more, proper, I suppose the word would be for lack of a better one, to refer to an adult female as a woman. "A 38-year old woman" for instance. While on the same token, you wouldn't say a "15-year old woman." I can't fully agree though that the word itself carries negative connotations. I think it's more in just the context that it's used, and depends on the individual whether they mind it or not. I don't think it's something that's pervasive.
The best analogy I can think of is just because you have a spill of pickles on aisle four, doesn't mean the entire grocery store needs to be burned down. Western society as a whole I feel has come an extremely long way in making vast strides to correct many of these injustices such as gender inequality, racism, homophobia, etc. Are we perfect as a society and where we should be? Not at all, because humans are fallible. But when these acts of malfeasance do happen, they should be dealt with and taken care of as an individual case and I feel for the most part, are. I don't feel they are evidence of a society that is just totally consumed by racism, misogyny, homophobia, Islamaphobia, etc.
Just my sentiments on the matter.
This is the type of response I wanted. I respect your point of view. I agree with a lot of it.
In my opinion, Tenebrae's response of "good girl" was the first response that could be viewed as negative and I think it was intended as such. Following that was IrvingKrebb who's post starts out calling Mayim "full of shit" and her words "a total fucking lie" implying outrage (while going on to decry just that - people being offended by what he seems a "tiny" issue because people are killing themselves with drugs in bathrooms somewhere). Mabus continued with referring to this type of thread as "whining" and those who would make such a thread "privileged" and "alone and miserable."
From there, the temperature of the thread became established.
To be honest, IrvingKrebb and mabus derailed the thread with their posts about political correctness culture. That was never the intended point. And to be fair, I don't think it's inherently a derogatory word. However, there is an argument to be made about how the word, when used in different uses, objectifies and/or infantizes women, especially when it is used in a flippant or misogynistic manner. I think that's all it is. Not Newspeak, not an attack on free thought. I think we as a society are working to be more inclusive of each other just because I think we're constantly moving forward. I think social constructs are improving.
My disdain isn't at disagreement. It's at the flippant nature some people were by directly doing toward chicago something she was explicitly wanting to not be done to her. And that's a very crappy thing to do.
My disdain isn't at disagreement. It's at the flippant nature some people were by directly doing toward chicago something she was explicitly wanting to not be done to her. And that's a very crappy thing to do.
silverstar
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Yeah, the "good girl" comment I concur did sound a bit condescending. That is an example of what I mean in the context of how it's used. Saying that to me implies you're patting someone on the head, much in the way you would a dog ("good doggie") because they're doing what they're told.
And the subsequent responses you referenced I also agree are not constructive in any way at all.
Repetitive.
But that's what -virginie did and what I was debating.
The dictionary doesn't say it's a word to describe a woman unless you pay to see that one definition.
It doesn't have the same meaning. People are using it in a way that people say "I could care less." We know what you mean, but it doesn't exactly make sense. One could argue that's being pedantic of course, but I think over time language nuances can shape mindsets.
It absolutely does have the same meaning in many instances. People use the word 'girl' to mean 'woman' all the time without any additional connotations implied or intended (e.g. childish, innocent, girly etc)
'I spoke to a girl on the desk over there' can have exactly the same meaning as 'I spoke to a woman on the desk over there'. It can imply an age difference, or maturity or seniority but it doesn't have to, and often doesn't. Formal and informal contexts also influence the choice of word, for example. Your interpretation of 'girl' in any given context may be different to another person's if you have already have negative feelings towards it. It also works the other way around.
Would you say, "I spoke to a boy on the desk over there" to indicate a full-grown adult male?
People use it informally as if it has the same meaning, but it is a word that implies age. That's why you don't hear news anchors referring to grown women as girls in reports. The fact that there isn't a male equivalent is also important to note.
News reports are formal - they also don't mention guys or dudes. People use lots of words informally in ways that don't match up with their original meanings. I.e. describing something as 'sick' can mean it's 'awesome' or 'gross' or 'ill'. Similarly 'girl' doesn't have to imply youth specifically, even though it can relate to a child or a younger woman.
There isn't a male equivalent in the US. As I said earlier though, in the UK we use 'lad' in exactly the same way all the time. It can mean a young lad (a boy) or a young adult, but is used informally to refer to men generally (e.g. lad's night out, seeing the lads, I just spoke to a lad over there etc). The alternative would be bloke, guy, dude, or man. Some other countries may have equivalent terms also.
Tenebrae
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Aktchually, that happens all the time.
Slightly off-topic, I know, but I love how in the US older men call younger men "son". I don't find it patronizing at all, and I think it's quite cute. At least it sounds cute to my French ear
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BellybTickler
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You all need to head over to the Winchester.
I understand where you're coming from and fair enough. Well just have to agree to disagree or we're gonna get circuitous.
On the point about "lad" though... Attached is what Google spit out when I searched "lad definition".
Granted, I'm in America, so grain of salt
Perhaps where you are. Geographical context and language matters, as well.
That wouldn't go over so well in America.
Yep, all of those meanings are accurate, but in everyday speech it's mostly just used to describe a boy or a youngish man. I.e. a parent could say 'my lad is a bit shy around other kids' or you could say 'there's a new lad working in my office'. It's basically used in exactly the same ways that girl is.
Since I'm here, here's a clip of a grown woman referring to her friends as girls at 5:29, and another referring to women as guys at 9:58. It doesn't look like there will be any generalized change in the referral to women as girls, but that doesn't rule out the usage on a personal level. Habits will be hard to break, even if one is so inclined. If multiple links show up, go to the Dianne Feinstein one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=THCqe-Kov5Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch ?v=THCqe-Kov5Y
Tenebrae
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Oh really? Good to know
I guess you're right, each culture have their own conceptions of what's acceptable. So do individuals, to complicate things further
In the UK, we do use lad in exactly that way. 'I spoke to the lad on the desk over there' would be a typical use and could be referring to either a child, a teenager or a full grown adult male, depending on the situation. It's used in the same way as girl.
Exactly. But that's not boy, it's lad. I have absolutely no problem believing that you use both (girl and lad) terms without condescension.
But, as has been pointed out, there are geographic and cultural differences.
We just use the word boy less in the UK than we perhaps used to, and lad has superceded it in a lot of situations as it's more informal but they mean the same thing...the comparison extends all the way down to the way we talk to pets and animals: 'good boy' 'good girl' 'good lad'. There are cultural differences between the UK and US but lad is an example of equivalence with girl, which still has the same meanings in both countries. Being called a 'lad' should therefore be as offensive to me as an female adult being called a 'girl' and yet it still happens - and I'm over 40. Lad can also have other more negative meanings/implications associated with it, which I could find offensive if I chose to - e.g. 'laddish' behaviour is associated with young guys drinking a lot, being loud and generally being dicks. I don't see it that way though when it's applied to me and I don't think that guys find the word offensive or derogatory unless it's intended.
You don't have an equivalent word in the states (and the commonly accepted meaning of 'boy' has stuck with children). If you did have another word though, I think it's just as likely that adult males wouldn't find that offensive either.
The Tickle Room
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.....They say there is power in words. One response to a thread and here we are. Kind of beautiful in a way? To see everyone discussing this together and explaining their side of life and lingo.
To add I will say my use of "girls" could be seen positive but I completely see the negative of it. I live in NYC and was born and raised here while also being in many different parts of the world and country with the Army. But I will say many people use lingo and words differently. I have actually been called lad, son, homeboy, B, etc. But I completely agree and I NOT ok with being called boy. I am 25 not 8. While some men are ok with that I am not. This is a problem I dealt with OFTEN in the Army. In Mexico I was called gringo a LOT until I would speak spanish saying I did not like that. According to a local this was common to people of a lighter complexion in this area but I could care less. So I think ultimately you cannot force people to not say things they are accustomed to often. But I will say it was eye opening to me and personally I will lead with professional lingo more often on the forum now to a degree. But in everyday life I think its good to just be vocal about what bothers you when someone says it and if on the opposite side we should respect that immediately and realize this is a common problem and focus on change.
Just my 2 cents!
To add I will say my use of "girls" could be seen positive but I completely see the negative of it. I live in NYC and was born and raised here while also being in many different parts of the world and country with the Army. But I will say many people use lingo and words differently. I have actually been called lad, son, homeboy, B, etc. But I completely agree and I NOT ok with being called boy. I am 25 not 8. While some men are ok with that I am not. This is a problem I dealt with OFTEN in the Army. In Mexico I was called gringo a LOT until I would speak spanish saying I did not like that. According to a local this was common to people of a lighter complexion in this area but I could care less. So I think ultimately you cannot force people to not say things they are accustomed to often. But I will say it was eye opening to me and personally I will lead with professional lingo more often on the forum now to a degree. But in everyday life I think its good to just be vocal about what bothers you when someone says it and if on the opposite side we should respect that immediately and realize this is a common problem and focus on change.
Just my 2 cents!
Interesting. Why's that?
Park CollegeO
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_virginie_
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I have to be honest chicago, this simply floored me. My point is meaningless because you need to go to library to check the link. You care enough about this to imply I am lying, but not enough to visit your library and actually check before implying it there. It is the Oxford English Dictionary for goodness sake - your library will have access if not a physical copy. I have apparently discredited myself by defending myself with a source when challenged. By not replying quickly enough - days later - what I have to say is somehow less valid.
It just makes me sad. This is what so many discussions on the internet become, arguments where people are looking for reasons and excuses to dismiss and ignore what the other person has to say. You've lined your reasons up perfectly, and I will admit that is far easier to do than admit that there might be a view different from your own that is perhaps even valid. I have tried my best to put it forwards, and I think it is safe to say that I failed.
What a silly girl I am.
silverstar
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^ Calls other people "trolls" as he desperately attempts to continue stoking the flames after seeing the conversation has evolved into calm, rational discourse.
You're saying the demeaning, misogynistic shit didn't happen?
