Guns (Reply To MistressValerie)

[amk714]

Originally posted by MistressValerie

I too am saddened by the tragedy at the U of A, especially since I actually attended there at one time and many of my best on-line friends are connected to the university.

I should point out that it is ILLEGAL for any person other than a peace officer to carry a gun on a college campus in Arizona. It is illegal for a citizen with a concealed carry permit, it is illegal for a private security guard, and it is illegal for a teacher or college employee. If anyone there (other than the shooter) had been armed, they might have been able to stop the bloodshed. As it is, in Arizona, one must "Call 911 and die."

(For the record, I carry a 32 automatic, legally and with a licence. I pray I will never have to use it.)

(This was posted in another thread, so I'm starting a new one to not break any rules.)

MistressValerie, I'm sorry that you've been touched by this tragedy. But being a university student, I must reply to your comments. I respectfully disagree with you about allowing people to carry guns onto a college campus. It's true that if someone had been armed, the shootings might have been prevented, but MORE bloodshed could also have resulted if that had been the case! Are you saying that college students, faculty, and security should bring guns into classrooms, libraries, dorms, and other places on campus? That sounds quite scary to me.

For the record, I support gun control, but I'm not against gun ownership. I do have a problem with concealed weapons, though. I not only pray that you'll never have to use your gun, Val, but also that if you do, you're adequately trained and you don't get killed or seriously injured.

I welcome discussion on this topic, regardless of your opinion. But if there's too much name-calling and other nastiness, I'll have this thread deleted. Thanks, and let's agree to disagree politely.

 

[Iggy pop]

I have to agree with AMK here. It is possible that if a student, teacher, or school employee had a gun they could have stopped the shootings. It is also possible that if one of these people had a gun without the proper training more people could have died. Did you know that if you own a gun you are have much greater chance of accidently shooting a friend or family member than an actual intruder. Thousands of kids die each year from accidental shootings.

Do I think guns should be illegal? No, not all. All you have to do is look at the drug war to see how succesful the illegilization of guns would be. I do think a mandatory gun safety class before you could get a license to get a gun would be a good idea.

 

[Biggles of 266]

That was Charlton Heston's plan to stop school shootings, Moses says arm the teachers. What a peaceful and loving environment that would be, when grade 1 teacher Miss Honey is packing concealed heat...

 

[amk714]

Thanks for the support, guys. I'm still waiting to hear from the pro-gun advocates on this forum. I hope they'll chime in soon.

 

[amk714]

I'm bumping up this thread so MistressValerie will see it!

 

[ShiningIce]

Heston is a complete waste of life and a horrible actor.

 

[MistressValerie]

Please re-read my original post. What I said was that NO ONE other than campus police can carry a gun legally at the U of A campus, including the contract private security guards who are paid to protect the students! The faculty and staff are not allowed to have a gun. The citizens who paid $150 for a permit, background check, training, and qualification cannot have a gun. At the U of A, you have to call 911 and die. I will not do that, and that is why I quit the U of A after one summer session. I went to college in another state where I could legally carry my gun with a permit.

For a pro-gun ISP, please visit http://www.outdoorsunlimited.net

For firearms legislation issues, please visit http://www.nraila.org

Thank you for your time.

Armed and proud,

 

[46and2]

Hey AMK,
I'm hear to give you a bit of a different point of view on this subject. Let me start out by saying that I am pretty neutral about this, I've always found it to be a dead end argument on both sides, so I've never really come to a decision on this. Hears a point of view that I've heard from friends of mine that are very pro-gun: "An armed society is a polite society. Provided that the law requires you to know your weapon and how to use it inside out before you are allowed to carry it. People are far less likley to pull a gun in a room full of armed individuals." Once again this is not my opinion. However I am forced to wonder what our crime rate would be like if we all had guns. So I guess the most logical thing for me is to ask this question: Putting all other fears aside would allowing everyone to be armed lower are crime rate? Would other problems caused by this make it worth it? I've also heard of a country that allows all of it's citizens to be armed (with guns). Does anyone what country this is and why they allow this?

 

[amk714]

46and2 and MistressValerie, thanks for the replies. 46and2, you ask some good questions that the link I'm about to give might answer. And Val, I'm not against using guns for outdoor activities such as hunting, but I do find it interesting that you also gave me an NRA website. In any case, here's a page that's got a lot of stuff about guns and gun control:

http://home.att.net/~resurgence/LiberalFAQ.htm

Scroll down to where it says "Myths about crime:" and the last 6 links in that section will tell you why I think the way I do.

 

[sole seeker]

I have some pretty strong opinions on this issue. I don't think everyone should have the right to carry a gun.

The thing about some people and guns is that they think that waiving a gun at a bad guy is going to get him to stop doing whatever it is he's doing. These people don't think, deep down inside, that they'll ever have to take a human life. In fact, lots of people don't consider whether or not they can kill another person, if worst comes to worst they figure they'll just wound the bad guy.

Well, sometimes it might work out that way. Sometimes not. I personally know a bunch of guys (ten I can name off the top of my head, and maybe more) who could look down the barrel of a pistol pointed at them and not fall apart. Before they surrendered, any of these guys would determine if the person holding the gun is likely to (1) actually pull the trigger, (2) hit what their aiming at.

If the answer to either of these questions is "No", then the guys I know will take the gun away from the person who's holding it. It doesn't require karate or any marial arts skill, just nerve. At that point, no matter what kind of situation you had before, now you've got a gunfight. (You supplied the gun.)

In the course of my life 've lived with five ladies in long-term relationships. (Yes, I'm an old guy.) I taught each of them to shoot a pistol, and I tried to talk the first three into carrying a pistol in their purse. None of them would. They each told me that they did not have it in them to take another's life. They were honest assessments and I respected them for it. It's a hard thing to take another's life. If you're not willing to do it, don't carry a gun. The life you save may be your own - or your kid's.

(Of course this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.)

 

[Biggles of 266]

Just found these on the net and thought they'd be interesting.

New York brought in very strict gun control laws, and the shooting murders there went from 2,100 to 600 in a year.



Gun deaths in a year per country:

Germany, 381,
France, 255,
Canada, 165,
United Kingdom, 68,
Australia, 65,
Japan, 39.
The United States of America, who knows the answer to this one? Come on... think hard... Canada's only got 165 and they're just next door... come on... have a guess...




















11,127

 

[JoBelle]

I'm curious how many is that per capita? And what types of environments are the concentrated numbers found in?

I grew up with a brother as a cop, and a dad who was an olympic skeet shooter, so at a very early age, I was taught respect for what guns could do. I was given early training on handling and shooting a firearm.

I guess that explains my mixed views, as I know not everyone gets the education that I received.

Joby

 

[Biggles of 266]

I'll do the maths on the per capita shootings, but I couldn't find anything more detailed about the environments.

Biggles

 

[Strelnikov]

Interesting that both pro-self defense posts thus far have been from women. If you're 5 ft 3 in and 110 lbs, facing a big bruiser, it helps to have an equalizer.

I've had a concealed carry permit for 25 years. My wife has had one nearly that long. We've heard the liberal bullshit "statistics" on gun safety and don't buy it. Know why? Because an armed citizen has a degree of control, and a chance to come through a violent confrontation alive and unharmed. A disarmed citizen has neither of those things.

You want me to give up my gun? Try to take it.

And since i'm not interested in participating in the flame war that's about to start here, I'm out. See you all in another thread.

Strelnikov

 

[Iggy pop]

I don't think anyone is advocating that guns should be made illegal. Drugs are illegal and look how much good that has done. At U&A I think it is ridiculous that not even trained professionals can carry guns. However, with that said we do have a serious problem with accidental shootings. Thousands are killed each year accidental. So requiring somebody to get licensed and take a mandatory safety course before they can own a gun I don't is that big of a deal.

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

F*** That, I like guns!
Cuz if you got guns it means you don't need to work out!
You got Pecs, I got Techs!!!

~ Chris Rock (on gun control)

 

[kurchatovium]

I support your right to carry a registered weapon 100% MistressValerie. A woman who loves tickling and firearms. I think I am in love.

 

[MistressValerie]

Thank you, Kurch and Forgotten T, for your support (I love Chris Rock!!!) Thank you also to Iggy Pop, for correctly understanding what I was saying in the first place. I was NOT talking about "guns in the home," nor comparing crime rates between New York and England, nor saying that guns are always safe. I simply mentioned that the U of A has VERY strict gun control (it is a FELONY for even the security guards to carry) and that it did NOT prevent this shooting and might, perhaps, have contributed to the environment in which a criminal feels safe to roam and attack at will -- a wolf in the henhouse.

The Arizona carry permit requires (1) range training by a police-certified instructor, (2) live-fire qualification, (3) a course in self-defense law, (4) and a background check which may include cops calling on your neighbors, as well as a full criminal history and mental-health records check. The requirement for private security guards is similar.

There is no reason why qualified, trained, certified, approved citizens cannot be trusted to carry on university grounds. I never said that "guns in the home are always safe" or that "the US has a low crime rate" or any other such nonsense. I do not have an opinion on most of those issues, and I did not raise them at any time here.

I am glad that SOMEONE actually took the time to read my original post! I hope that we can all maintain a civil attitude about this. I did not intend my original post to offend, but when I see a glaring problem, I do feel compelled to speak out about it, and I make no apology for simply telling the truth.

I will always try to speak honesly and civilly, and let the chips fall as they may.

I am a pacifist Taoist, but even the gentle Lao-Tzu advocated that the general public be armed as a deterrent to government power. "Though the people have weapons of war, they will not use them" -- that is what he says about the ideal state in his classic Tao Te Ching.

I mean it when I say "Love and Peace to you all."

 

[Moses25]

Ticklish guns

That was Charlton Heston's plan to stop school shootings, Moses says arm the teachers.

I never said that!!

Oh! you mean...

oh, ok...I'll let you off this time, Biggles.

"Let my people go..."

Cheers.

 

[Moses25]

I mean it when I say "Love and Peace to you all."

Dear MV,

I'm having fantasies of you tickling me at gunpoint.
(heehee )

Seriously, though, if I was living in the U.S., I would also arm myself. Perhaps this is the hysteria by which we Canadians fall victim to, sometimes, when viewing the States, but when giving an attacker a "piece of my mind" does not lead to "peace of mind", well, then, I would rather just be carrying a piece.

Cheers.