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Kazaa

The_rocking

TMF Master
Joined
Dec 29, 2001
Messages
738
Points
16
Users message (and rest of thread) deleted by Myriads.

Why?

User was discussing the trading of entire tickling videos via peer to peer trading platform. Publication of such activities is not allowed on the TMF.

Myriads
 
Last edited by a moderator:
*Semi-sarcastic laugh*

I hate to play devil's advocate (actually, I find that I really quite enjoy it, but you never hear anyone say "I sure love to play devil's advocate") but there really aren't any kinds of barriers or anything in terms of KaZaA and MusicCity legality. Quite honestly, you can post just about whatever you want to and get away with it. I've seen full-length motion pictures available for download a few weeks after theatrical release. This is of no concern to me as I work in a theatre and can get into any movie at any showing for free, but they're still there and can still be grabbed. Of course, the RIAA and MPAA are both up in arms about the whole deal due to the fact that people are using this program (similar to Napster) to transfer files, but the loophole I feel Morpheus is going to be able to get away through is the fact that it doesn't restrict searches to ONLY music or ONLY movies like Napster did. Napster was basically intended to be used for downloading music and music alone. Morpheus (KaZaA) is basically a user-friendly version of no-ratio FTP. It allows ANY kind of file to be accessed from another person's computer. Therein lies the rub for record and movie companies. It's not like MusicCity or KaZaA are telling people "Hey! Why don't you download some copyrighted movies or music!" They're telling people "Here! Use this program to exchange any kind of file on the internet!" Sure, people CAN use it to obtain illegal movies and music and whatnot, but it's an asset for people with non-published movies and music and things to get their art out into the world. And quite frankly, for the courts to shut down Morpheus (KaZaA) like they did Napster, it would be like declaring the record and movie companies legalized monopolies. People with non-published or non-sold art wouldn't be able to display it in any widespread fashion and it would basically keep those in their positions in the positions they're in. Not everyone lives in LA or New York and can have their voices heard. Not everyone can afford to fly to Hollywood to audition for a movie or TV show or get a demo tape to a record producer. The internet is basically one of the only hopes for artists in shitty positions to have their soul outpourings seen and/or heard. User-friendly interfaces for file transfer over the internet is one of the most helpful tools in doing so. Sure, you'll have people who'll abuse the system, but still. Don't punish all because of the faults of some. To shut down Morpheus (KaZaA) is to shut down independent art on the internet and any legal system in any country that does so is unfit and, for those of you who'll get this reference, 'Obsolete'.

Wow, am I getting off topic, here. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is, do what you will with it. There aren't, like, netcops or something that search for copyrighted materials on there and send out teams of FBI agents to track the user down and prosecute them. Plus, tickling videos aren't really mainstream and I'm sure any kind of investigation into any kind of copyright-infringement activity would most likely end up focusing more on, say, Lord of the Rings or some other ultra-popular blockbuster movie of some sort. Sure, there are legalities and things in effect for copyrights and infringements thereof, but the likelihood of someone getting caught distributing them over such a source is very slim.

What it all boils down to is your own personal morality. If you'd feel 'dirty' or 'bad' or whatever for posting copyrighted material on Morpheus (KaZaA), then don't do it. However, if you're the type who doesn't worry about the consequences of society's concepts of 'wrong' and 'right' and you don't feel the need to apply yourself to said concepts, then by all means, go ahead and post away. And if in the unlikely event that some kind of legal actions head in the direction of KaZaA and MusicCity, then the axe will fall almost certainly on the people who are the least responsible, the creators and caretakers of said file-exchange programs. Any record or movie company/association would have to be insane to attempt any kind of maneuver against the people actually committing the crimes... the users of the programs who put up the 'pirated' material for download. They'd be at risk of losing TONS of customers. Someone ends up screwed from copyright infringement charges. Let's just make this up for the sake of argument, here. This person ends up having to pay the 200,000 dollar fine and let's say spend six months in jail. Do you think that person's friends, family, etc. are really going to want to contribute to the element that caused this injury to their loved one? Sure, people have to obtain the things they want through some fashion or another, but if something like that happened to one of my friends, I'd be almost certain to never purchase anything from that company again. Extrapolate the loss for the thousands of people who actually DO put up bootleg/pirated materials and you've got yourself a major economic disaster for these companies. I mean, sure, there's Morpheus and KaZaA, but there are thousands of ways to get these kinds of things online. One of these methods is FTP, a protocol so deeply rooted into the internet itself that the record and movie companies would have to attempt to shut down the entire internet to get their way.

Anyway, I've gotten so far off track from my original point and this message has become far too long. So to say what I wanted to say in the first place, "If you wanna post it, go for it. Nobody's gonna be watching hard enough to catch you. So many people put so many copyrighted materials available for download each day and none of them get caught. It all depends on personal definitions of 'right' and 'wrong'. Personal morality."

Whatever you choose to do, give 'er hell.
 
In response to several of Machival's rather good points:

While one is able to make the choice between trading copyrighted material or not with little fear of reprisal, the ability to do so still does not make it legal. It's not. It's still a form of theft.

For all you hourly workers out there, how do you feel when the boss asks you to 'stay late' for an 'just' an extra half hour or so with no extra compensation just as you were heading out the door at days end?

For you business owners, how do you feel when someone pockets a few items from your store?

For anyone who creates something, illegal file trading of copyrighted material feels the exact same way. Someone is stealing from you. It hurts.

We don't support it here. The act of trading entire tickling videos via the peer to peer services is an attack on the very companys that make this community go.

As to the big media concerns not taking action for fear of bad press.... Wait until they form a unified body to do the job and start doing it across the board for ALL of themselves at once. They will all choose to look bad as a group. and they will do so happily.

And there are 'netcops', though not an official force. I know one person that was contacted by Playboy enterprises for copyright violations, and another by Disney. Comapanies DO police their property. No national force, but individual company actions exist.

Myriads
 
Ok I understand what you think, that's why I am asking first, take action then, you can trust me that I never do something illegal in hurt for others.
 
One of these methods is FTP, a protocol so deeply rooted into the internet itself that the record and movie companies would have to attempt to shut down the entire internet to get their way.
Now that I have dsl that's exactly what I'm doing. No more peer to peer for me. FTP and IRC are my favorite for large files. Only share pics on the web server.
 
Myriads said:

trading copyrighted material, the ability to do so still does not make it legal. It's not. It's still a form of theft.
Myriads

Nicely put Myr. I read someone say on this post saying "if it doesn't bother your conscience, do it." That is nonsense! Your conscience doesn't make anything legal or illegal. Let's follow the laws of the land regarding copyrights, not follow "if we want to or not."
But this is bigger than just the copyright laws issue. This world scares me these days. There's been a trend in the last decade or so where people don't seem to care what is right or wrong anymore, (or can even distinguish right and wrong), but just want to do what "makes them feel good." I assure you there are things that are right in this world, like helping someone in need, or caring for your grandparents, or giving candy to little children to see them smile. Those kinds of things are right and will always be right.
And there are things that are wrong, like sleeping with another person's husband or wife, or murder, or stealing from anyone, or harassing/teasing others so much that they feel worthless. No gray area here. Those things are wrong and will always be wrong, even if someone says "if it doesn't bother your conscience."
:p
 
If you live by the internet, you die by the internet.
Copyright? What copyright!
 
I have to agree with stuart the fact is kazaa is used for many illegal transactions look at the games you can download,music and many other things, but then again I agree that no videos should be put on because it is as you say not fair to the the producer no matter who it is.
 
copyright

Originally posted by Myriads

trading copyrighted material, the ability to do so still does not make it legal. It's not. It's still a form of theft.
Myriads
first of all i never post any copyrighted stuff.
but for everyones information make sure the people you accuse are
americans. these videos are illegal in canada and do not come
under copyright laws. its the same ruling that allows us to get
direct tv. however you can be fined upto 10000 dollars for having them. i dont get it all are strippers are nude and all the hardcore is legal but dont tie up anyone and tickle them or else.
 
I think the REAL crime here is on the part of record and movie companies, quite honestly. (Not the tickling video producers, of course, because these companies are small enough that their profits, I'm assuming, go back to they people who did the work... the people who deserve it.) I'm not talking about the musicians, actors, directors, etc. I'm talking about the people who produce the CD's and movies. The ones who take the products of talented people, market them, then think that what they did makes them worthy of receiving almost all of the profit. These kinds of actions are mostly committed by those dealing with music. Record companies not only rape the customer with jacked-up prices (I have a PC Magazine around here with an article by one of those editorial writers... think his name is John Dvorak or something like that... in which it is explained that according to price studies of all other products, CD's should have dropped in price to around ten dollars over the past decade. Instead, they have remained at usually close to eighteen dollars apiece.) but they also rape the artists by, in my opinion, STEALING most of the profit for themselves when it should be the other way around. Hell, I'd gladly shell out the two or three dollars for a CD that actually go to the artists themselves.

When you think about 'crime' and 'laws', you really have to take long hard looks at what society thinks is 'right' and 'wrong' and what actually, really IS 'right' and 'wrong'. I'm not talking about religion. This isn't the "Man's law vs. God's law" argument. Religious 'law' is also riddled with flaws and inconsistencies. Let's take an example I saw recently on I believe it was CourtTV. A man was tried for brutally raping and torturing, then murdering his fionce. The jury found him not guilty and he was set free. About a decade or so later, he sold his house. The new owner found several rolls of film and things hidden in some secret spot and turned them over to the police. When confronted about the newfound evidence, the man confessed to actually doing what he had been tried for doing in the first place. However, thanks to our 'legal system', he couldn't be tried again for the same crime. "Double Jeopardy", it's called. So to argue that something is 'right' because it's 'law' is to argue that it's 'right' to let killers walk free. Now, what if someone became enraged at the horrible miscarriage of justice and decided to take it upon themselves to kill the man for what he had done. They'd be tried for murder and most likely given life in prison or execution. Is /that/ right? To be punished for keeping a watchful eye while justice sleeps? According to our 'legal system', yes. Another quick shot of anecdotal evidence, here: I had a relative whose body was riddled with a form of cancer. Eventually, her body became so frail that her bones would break when the nurses tried to turn her so she wouldn't get bedsores. They had to put her in a full body cast and sever her spinal cord. Every time her husband would come to visit her, she would beg him to kill her. He couldn't, however, because he'd be tried for murder. He wanted to... he could see the pain in her face every single day. But he couldn't. In this instance, is murder wrong? Legally, yes. But in almost all other respects, it's right. By the way, these kinds of things run deeper than mere conscience judgement.

Our 'legal system' has more faults than the Pacific coastline. One of the major faults dealing in our immediate purposes here is that it allows conditional theft. It's fine for record companies to steal from the musicians and, quite frankly, from consumers but it's not okay for consumers to do the exact same thing. Actually, what the record companies do is worse because they're actually MAKING money from what they're doing. The consumers who 'steal' music, so to speak, are merely not having to pay outrageous prices. (Of course, again this whole argument doesn't really pertain to the producers of tickling videos as they're all independently owned and operated and closely knit and their profits are therefore fair and even.)

And actually, there ARE musicians and artists who don't mind people doing this. Back during the whole Napster shitfit, there were a TON of musicians backing the side opposing the record companies. And when you REALLY get down and think about it, what IS 'stealing music'? I'm in a local band. We're nothing incredible, but all of us have talent. We can play and we can play accurately. For the most part up until recently, we've done mostly covers of other artists' songs. Apparently, according to 'the law', we're supposed to pay a fee to the original performers every time we play the songs. The fact of the matter is, people like familiar things. We wouldn't be half as popular if we didn't start out doing covers. Not only is it a good way to learn by practicing musical accuracy, but it allows the audience to run comparisons between us and the original performers, gauging our abilities and talent. Now, you tell me: with most non-professional musicians being young adults with fuckall for funding, do you really think ANY band abiding by 'the law' and paying royalties for doing covers would EVER be able to make it? Doesn't that seem a little monopolistic? And where do you draw the line? I've got a decent voice. I don't like to brag, but I really do sound good. Say I'm singing a song in my car (because my radio is broken and right now I don't have the money to fix it) and there are passengers present. Technically, I'm a 'performer' with an 'audience'. Am I expected to pay royalties for singing in my car?

I am, by no means, saying that stealing is right all the time and that everyone should pirate everything and that record companies and artists don't need to make any kinds of profits ever etc. etc. etc. But under certain circumstances, many crimes that are considered 'wrong' by our legal system should be considered 'right'. There are circumstances in which murder is acceptable. There are circumstances in which stealing is acceptable. People really do have shit for luck. You can say "you have to take opportunities where you find them" or "you just have to roll with the punches" until you hyperventilate. It doesn't eliminate the fact that there ARE people in this world who have simply been dealt bad hands their whole lives. They can't help but steal to stay alive. So is stealing wrong? For them, I think it's perfectly acceptable. I'm by no means saying that people who pirate software or bootleg music are doing it to survive, that's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that any legal system that doesn't recognize that the acceptability of crimes is conditional isn't a very good one. And if half the musicians out there say "go ahead and download my music. I could give a rat's ass. It's perfectly fine." and the other half say "NO! STOP THAT! THAT's WRONG!" is it wrong or is it right? Or is it conditionally wrong or right? Is it acceptable to 'steal' from some and not from others?

Sure, I'd be pretty pissed off if someone were to take something I worked on and used it for their own personal entertainment. But right now, currently, as a musician, writer, artist, director, etc. I'm not getting paid for the things I do. I write for a friend's low-distribution 'zine for no pay, I perform in a band and we haven't played in a place that had a cover charge or anything... can it be hypothesized that the art I create for free would be an even trade? I mean, it's not that I'm not talented enough to make a profit. I'm a very talented person in a great many respects. I don't like bragging, but I am. The only problem is, I live in a small-town area with less job opportunity than Soviet Russia.

The point I'm trying to make is that people need to start thinking a little deeper about 'right' and 'wrong' and 'law' and 'crime'. The majority of people accept whatever is 'the law' to be 'right' when, in actuality, it isn't. Did you know that in the state of Michigan, it's technically illegal for a woman to cut her hair without obtaining her husband's permission? I'm sure it's not a law that's widely enforced, but it still is 'the law'. Does that make it right? Over the centuries, we've had many laws that have been repealed or modified. Like slavery. Was slavery right just because it was supported by 'the law'?

I'm not saying 'go ahead and rip people off because there's a chance that copyright laws may be repealed in 80 years and then we can all laugh and say 'I told you so''. I'm really not trying to advocate anything. I'm not saying "if your conscience tells you it's okay, then it must be right". I'm not trying to convey the message that if someone THINKS something is right, then it is. One's conscience can't decide what's right and wrong. People are defective. Hell, Charlie Manson's conscience told him it was okay to slaughter the Tate family.

All I was doing was laying out the ground rules... the way things are. I can't control other peoples' actions. If he wants to do it, whether he thinks he's right or wrong, there's really nothing anyone can do to stop him. Sure, he may be caught, but the chances of that happening are slim to none. Whatever he wants to do, whether 'legal' or 'illegal', that's his decision. The point I was trying to make is that if he's worried about legal repercussions, he really shouldn't be. I haven't heard of a single case in which an individual user was caught and prosecuted. Even when Napster first started having problems and Metallica started monitoring users' activity, all they did was shut down the users' Napster accounts. I'm not condoning piracy or bootlegging and I'm not trying to force people to do so. My point was that the only thing that can really stop him is his own conscience.

And pertaining to the bigger companies not wanting to take action, even if they banded together to start persecuting consumers, I still think it would be a horrible business move. Larger companies, especially the kinds of goliaths that you have in entertainment, try to avoid going after individuals (the 'little guy') because it makes them look like total assholes. People hate corporate mindsets to begin with and I think that if these companies started bending people over and directly fucking them instead of just indirectly screwing people like they normally do, the consumers will start becoming more and more aware of the power they wield. If every consumer in the world banded together and decided "We're not gonna buy X-Boxes for a year" (without, of course, disclosing the amount of time they weren't going to purchase the X-Boxes), the price of X-Boxes would drop dramatically. In the event of these corporations and giants going after the little guy, I'm sure a lot of protests and boycotts would break out, eventually causing similar results to the theoretical desperation price-drops in the X-Box that I mentioned.

"Look at me, mommy! I'm writing a book!" "Yes you are, dear. My, look at how long it is!"

Anyway, whatever. 'Right' and 'wrong' are conditional concepts when applied to crime and circumstances thereof. Dealing with KaZaA, quite frankly only your conscience can stop you. I didn't mean to convey the notion that what someone's conscience tells them makes whatever action right or wrong. Etc. I think I've basically driven my point into the ground, here, so I'll stop myself now.
 
Hey...

Hey, it don't matter what IS right and wrong....No matter what you do, a consience is a consience. If I happen to feel that it's right to bash you over the a shovel a couple of times, well then, you can't stop me!! Mwahahhahaha! Thats how it is for everyone else!
Bullying people to change their views only causes upheaval!
 
Hey,

People make the laws of society. Hence, they vary from social group to social group. What's legal in this country may be illegal in another, and vice versa.

The notion of right and wrong are taught by members of your society, but there is nothing saying that this notion (or any laws, for that matter) are right or wrong by themselves. We accept them as axioms, but they could be refuted. That's why some of the laws change over a period of a few years when people realize that they do not fit within the expectations of the current society. A few simple examples are: slavery used to be legal, women did not have the right to vote, bearing arms used to be legal for everyone, bigamy or polygamy is still legal in some societies, killing other people and adultery are still valid in some societies.

In the bigger picture, at the level of the evolution of the universe, stealing and trading copyrighted material is irrelevant. After we die, nobody will remember us unless we did something so relevant that people will choose to remember us.

At the micro level, for people whose lives depend on selling this material, this is a big deal.

So, the point I am trying to make here is that you should not see this within the context of morality or right or wrong. Basically, act in a considerate way and be nice to other people. My motto in life is: “do to other people whatever you would not mind other people doing to you”. If someone asks you nicely that you should not trade his or her copyrighted material for whatever reason, then please do not do it.

Bye,

Knight Tickler
 
Stuart said:
If you live by the internet, you die by the internet.
Copyright? What copyright!


lol if you watched big brother 2000 u'll remember who said that kind of phrase (u live by the sword you die by the sword)

everybody wants ticklin vids, but nobody wants to pay for them, if you can get it free, then get it, thats what every1 does, but in this case, it aint like a security camera or security guard is watching you steal a cd or dvd, you can get away with stealing stuff on the net because nody is watching you, ok ig you blagg some peeps might report it when they THINK its their duty too.

its also due to privacy laws stopping people invading other peoples privacy by hacking and finding out wot theyve downloaded, it could be put in user end agreements an lets face it nobody reads them cos every accepts so it culd still b possible!!

but these are also "tickling video's" which are not widley known, people i know think of ticklin as perverted, sexual harrassment, but thats because they dont understand, not many people will understand why we have ticklin vids, and alot of people will and do class it as PORN, but how cna it b, its only tickling

this is where tickling for the web needs to b addressed, theres tickling for fun and sexual tickling which is and will b classed as porn

if there were alot of any sex who you could tickle there would b no online ticklin community, but because the state of the world is, we need this (well i dont, not all the time.

neway, nothing is foolproof, there are better ways to stop people like novices to the net or intermediate users from stealing pics and even movies, its just down to cleaver website design, or online applications like flash or shockwave, (over 90% of net users have the plug ins an alot of Operating systems like windows xp have it preinstalled, but be careful how u use it, and it needs to b used properly)

im going to even launch my own website for the uk dedicated to making ticklin vids, and im going to do them for free!! yes for free!! an then eventually have a small membership or like a couple of $ or £ to buy the vid to cover server charges, this will all be digital (no vids or dvds) just special video format which cannot be pirated (yes it cna b done, napster are doing it right now with the permissions of all record distributors, why dont we do it then!?)

even online streaming is going to be one of my options!!

give us ya thaughts

[email protected]
 
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Generally I would like to say I understand both sides and take this quite seriously.

It's rather shitty for people who do things not to be credited or paid for their work.

On the other hand, many production companies get greedy and rob the costumers.

What the production companies want is to maximize profits by deviding good products into many parts and making us pay for them all. They also want to make us pay for each use.

You used to buy a CD and listen to it at home. What they want now, is to make you pay every single time you play it! That's what they are doing now with digital formats. This is done without consideration for the costumer or the art. This is done to increase profits.

Why? Those companies show huge profits and instead of putting it into new art, they put it into crappy yet popular products (rap, teen pop, mtv metal) and into inventing formats to assure even more money coming their way.

I think it's unfair, and the production companies are afraid of losing the monopolistic control of the market. CDs everywhere cost around 18$ and unless they're really old no less than 15$. Isn't it illegal for different companies to adjust prices to a standart amount?


The MP3 ripping has only done good to the music market. People became aware of bands that don't show on MTV or that aren't in their local music store. During the whole napster era, music sales only increased. Now after they closed napster, the fans are showing their disappointment and since napster was closed music sales have decreased.

People could download songs and make thier own collection CDs, instead of buying a CD with 2 good songs and 14 crappy ones like they had to. That's more efficient and better for consumer and no company tried to offer it. Instead they sold "singles". 4 songs - original, playback and 2 remixes for 10$. What the *@#$? trying to maximize profits.

I'm not saying it's bad to earn money. But when people are greedy and try to squeeze every last penny of the costumer - it will get them disliked.


Mainly I agree very much Machival.


Luckily this doesn't exist in the TK community. Videos cost alot of money, and rightfully so, since the market for them is much smaller and the costs of production for every video are big since they are made mostly as a "hobby" or "side profit". You probably have to sell 200 copies just to repay the costs of making that video.

[qoute]While one is able to make the choice between trading copyrighted material or not with little fear of reprisal, the ability to do so still does not make it legal. It's not.[/quote]
I'm not sure whether are you talking about the moral aspect of trading copyrighted materials or saying Kazaa is illegal since it allows one to take part in such activity.

If it's the first option - agreed.
If it's the second - I disagree. I'd post more but i don't wanna ramble about something which can be simply my misunderstanding.
 
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