About Elves & a question for Tomato Dragon

[Celtic_Emperor]

While I could have made this private, I think it would make for an interesting read if it were public.

"MTJ Publishing has released a new e-comic, "Stipplewitz Book Two" Veteran artist Tomato Dragon returns this month with the continuing adventures of the deathly ticklish Black Elf Stipplewitz! Eleven color pages! Order a copy today."

TD, in the advertizement for your comic "Stipplewitz", she is refered to as a "black" elf.

Now when I saw that, immediately only two conclusions could be formed-

1.) "Black" was a typo and it was meant to be "Dark"

or

2.) It wasn't a typo.


Now, I'm not sure how up on your mythology you are TD, but since you created a dark elf character in Stipplewitz, I wanted to ask IS Stipplewitz actually a dark elf or is she black, as in african, for example?

The reason I bring up mythology is because its common knowledge that dark elves have naturally dark skin. While different stories will speak of the dark elves differently, it is commonly agreed that dark elves were once high elves. So their origins would be the same even though they live elsewhere away from their counterparts.

This would mean that they share the same heritage and blood.

And I bring this up to bring up another interesting topic-

What ethnic background are elves? I'm sure alot of unaware people would think that just because a dark elf has dark skin that they are black, and that a pale skinned high elf is white.

Fairies, pixies, sprites, grass runners, leprechauns, and yes, even elves are of european, particularly celtic origins. So maybe the answer lies there.

Bottom line, anyone can take any of these creatures and make them something they are not to suit a style, demand, or preference.

So again, TD, is Stipplewitz a dark elf or simply an elf whose black? Your answer/explaination should be most interesting, or maybe not if the answer is that it was a typo. 🙂

On a side note folks, I would hope that noone sees anything racially wrong with what I've said. I'm just working with the facts to get an answer to my honest question. I'd like to believe we are all mature enough to not make this a racist issue. 🙂

Even after TD answers my question, you can all feel free to talk about elves in general if you want. Theres no reason for this thread to only serve one purpose. 🙂

 

[deek]

maybe he meant black elf, as in black magic and it wasnt a typo nor was he refering to dark skin. ^_^

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Maybe, maybe not. I'd rather get the answer from him though. Because see, there would be a difference between her having dark skin because its natural for a dark elf to have dark skin and possibly being 'white' as far as the high elf bloodline is concerned, and of having dark skin because she's of african ethnicity. 🙂


EDIT: Pirotess from Record of Lodoss War is a perfect example of what I mean, as is Deedlit.

Pirotess is a dark elf, Deedlit is a high elf. They were raised differently, trained differently, and taught differently. High elves are more or less 'good' and dark elves are more or less 'evil'.

Pirotess has beautiful honey colored skin, but we know she's not 'black' because of her bloodline. Now, had she been created as a black elf, it would have been necessary to point that out somehow or by giving her, shall we say, 'black features'. 🙂

In anime, when a character is black they are drawn like a black person, but with elves its different. So when an amateur artist like TD creates a character based off of a lore, then it can be totally ambiguous.

Also note that I know 'black' can often mean evil or dark. Like 'black knight', for example. So in retrospect, calling Stipplewitz a black elf could simply be implying that she's evil, something we've already gotten a hint at (for those of us not actually buying and reading the comic). But even then, that wouldn't answer the ethnicity question, as it remains that Stipplewitz has dark skin.

 

[Tomato_Dragon]

Hmm.....

Honestly, I don't know a thing about elves, or high elves, or dark elves. I just thought "evil" and thought "black" like black magic. That's pretty much it. Didn't go more in to it then that. Sorry if I don't have a more specific answer, but it really is that simple. Oh, and I've pretty much been drawing my whole life, and 3D animating professionally for the past 7 years, so I'd say I'm past the amateur phase😀

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I of course was prepared that it may just be that simple. Well, thats that then.

As for being professional, there was no way for me to know that, but good for you. 🙂

 

[deek]

alls well that ends well .__.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Actually deek, this isnt over now that I think about it and the way he answered it. Theres still not an answer to the main question.

Tomato Dragon, you have said that you don't know a thing about elves, high or dark. You've made it clear she's evil or dark, that we already know. But that doesn't explain why she's got dark skin.

So again, thinking back on it now, when you created her, why did you go with black? Is she a black elf or is she a dark/drow elf?

You have to have at least thought that far to have decided on a skin color. Somewhere, sometime, at some point how you wanted to portray her as an exotic creature had to have come up. 🙂

I'm sorry if this is making you uncomfortable, but it would at least help me and others like Stipplewitz more if who and what she was is more defined. I hope you don't mind.

 

[Tomato_Dragon]

Well, it's the simple answer again. She's just an evil elf. As far as why her skin is dark...that's just the way I originally colored her. Someone asked me a while ago if she was a Drow, and I had no idea what that was. They said it was basically an evil elf. I guess I originally called her a black elf because again, of the evil magic that resurrects her (If you read the covers of the e-comics, there is a paragraph explaining the past history.) So that's pretty much it. She's just a nastly little elf, who pretty much levels anything or anyone that gets in her way, and is immortal (Except for when it comes to tickling. That sends her packing to the underworld.) That's the best I can do for ya.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Ok. So is it safe to assume then, once and for all that she has no ethnicity? Personally, it wouldn't matter to me what she is, but I'm sure you realize that by giving a character dark skin naturally questions will arize as to her ethnicity. Some people can identify more with a character if they are the same race, for example. Yenna (Ozzy's character) for example, is a latina if I'm not mistaken. She was given south american features, and so that explained what she is. She could have been mistaken for white or even asian otherwise. Or, her features could have been mistaken for the traits of a south american when in fact he may have just intended them to be exagerated or to look a certain way.

 

[Tomato_Dragon]

No, ethnicity did not enter my mind when I first drew her. I mean...she's an elf...fiction...not real😀
To be quite honest no one has ever brought up a race question or asked about her dark skin except for you.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

And I'm sure not that many people were curious and probably just assumed she was a dark elf. And we're talking about this after the fact.

Also, yeah, it is fiction but there are white, black, hispanic and asian characters in fiction. The fact she is a fictional mythical creature however is what makes this issue different than any of the others.

The truth is, elves CAN have ethnicity, provided they were born of a human/elf union. That would make them a half-elf. And just like the real world, sometimes 'mixed' children are treated as outcasts. The same is true for half-elves. Sometimes people want nothing to do with them because either or both the elven side and the human side of the society resents the fact a human and an elf would be together anyway. Elves see humans as mere mortals and barbarians, incapabable of the level of understanding and knowledge that they are. Humans see the elves as snotty, aloof, arrogant and haughty.

It is only after many decades that sub-societies of half-elves can florish peacefully. After a certain point in most stories half-elves are so assimilated into society that no one minds them and many a human befriend a half-elf and vice-versa. Its at points like these that half-elves have more jobs available to them in the inner cities, in the marketplaces, and in the military and government, etc. They can work alongside humans without fear of ridicule or disdain.

The high and dark elves are a different story however. Since they are a reclusive people that mind their business they aren't used to half-elves being around them.

Though Deedlit, of Record of Lodoss War gets along with Leif (a half-elf) and Leif looks up to Deedlit as a role model. And in the manga "Deedlit's Tale", Deedlit takes Leif to the Forest of No Return (the realm of the high elves) to try and convince the elders and the rest of her people that humans and elves can get along and their children are a blessing, not a misfortune.

Yeah, it may be fiction, but it sure hits home in more ways than one. I think the problem is that alot of people don't take fiction seriously if its not reality-based. I'm not saying you're like that however. Obviously you had to have liked fictional fantasy otherwise you wouldn't have created Stipplewitz or the world she lives in. 🙂

 

[FF7tickler]

*pulls out D&D handbook*

Well to be a dark elf/drow technically:

Would have to live in an any underground climate/terrian. Neutral/evil. Female drow favor the cleric class. Not to mention they are sensitive to bright lights.

Personally, considering from what I understand of the story since well I can't get the E-comic, she is just an evil elf. TD isn't a big fantasy geek you see, so he is probably unaware of all the subdivisions, since there is more than just elf and drow. Everyone knows about elves and dragons..so it was easy enough just to do a fantasy story for the sake of that.


" Honestly, I don't know a thing about elves, or high elves, or dark elves. I just thought "evil" and thought "black" like black magic. That's pretty much it. Didn't go more in to it then that. Sorry if I don't have a more specific answer, but it really is that simple"- TD quote


Darker tones express her personality better then per say a light skinned blonde elf like Deedlit.

That is why she is the color she is. << So I'd say from his explanation she isn't one. Just a dark skinned elf. For example you could have pink elves given certain criteria. ^^;

 

[Kalamos]

What's even funnier, from a AD&D geek point of view is: Elves cannot be raised from death.

They could be resurrected [which is a more complex rite] albeit with some difficulties.

But I'd say, ditch the manuals and enjoy the comic.


Hard defined rules sets help the simulation side of role-playing-games, but they shouldn't become straitjackets.

Especially in fantasy milieu "knowing too much" takes away from the awe and charm of the fantasy world.

Besides, I can't be sure about "black" elves/elfs, but I've seen a reference to "blue elves" in Tunnels and Trolls.

Whoever said Stip belongs to a DnD world? 😀

Ah, the joys of arguing about elven heritage. Just why don't we try and keep track of how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

😀 😀 😀


Oh, and I like the new red-headed sidekick.


Reg's.

 

[Tomato_Dragon]

"Darker tones express her personality better then per say a light skinned blonde elf like Deedlit."

FF7 pretty much nailed it with this sentence. A darker toned elf just seemed to convey a more evil personality to her then a golden haired, ivory skinned skinned elf (Like Galadriel in LOTR.) Well, that and the fact that she takes out entire villages as a recreational activity😱

Glad you like the redhead Kalamos. It wasn't my intention to start a controversy on elven history. My bad.😀

 

[FF7tickler]

It wasn't my intention to start a controversy on elven history. My bad

Well you did start a controversy. But if youc an start one that means your work is important enough to start one. That should make you proud at the very least.😀

 

[Tomato_Dragon]

Thanks FF7. I appreciate that.🙂

 

[rajee]

😀 Very interesting thread. 😀

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Yeah, I don't see how anyone wouldn't be the slighestest curious whether they would say something or not.

I've never really played D&D and I'm not really basing this off of any of that. So if anyone is being particularly technical and adhereing to a strict lore its everyone but me. I'm basing my findings on what I've read and seen from different sources. I really don't follow what D&D has to say, as thats more about a game than anything else and would sooner manipulate a race to make it fit in the game by way of numbers and calculations. D&D is about using your imagination. Its pretty much up to you to imagine what these characters look like.

But if its a story thats another matter. Its far more detailed and discriptive.

As for a controversy, I had already assumed all of the possible outcomes. Her just 'being evil and thus having dark skin' etc. But it would have been wrong to assume that TD didn't know anything about elves. While it wasn't a shock, it was unexpected. But the only way to have found this out was to ask. I'm glad I did.

 

[Kalamos]

Glad you like the redhead Kalamos. It wasn't my intention to start a controversy on elven history. My bad.😀 [/B]

Aye, she gives ideas. 🙂

And luckily elves are roughly all the same. Slenders body, pointed ears, angular features, affinity for magic and natural lore.

Let's talk about gnomes or kobolds, now, THAT is some great controversy. 😀

Even under the same ruleset differencies arise - for example, in older AD&D kobolds used to be vaguely similar to dog-faced pygmies. Now they are related to lizardmen... Quite a leap, huh?

😀

Authors rarely agree on species appearance, let alone their history.

Players usually agree on ONE statement, and play by it, since no one can force them to "upgrade" their rulebooks if they don't feel like. 🙂

That's the great up with paper rpgs.


Oh, I just realized the red-headed elf [besides, true-born elves couldn't be red-haired 😀 😀 😀 ] reminds me of Scarlet from the G.I.Joe series. 🙂

Got some inspiration?


Reg's!

 

[Fairfeather]

Well....I like the picture for the tickling interaction and it's variable brush line technique. Sadly the only eleven lore I am familiar with is that the Keebler Elves do make mighty fine cookies. 🙁

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

LOL, you're funny Fairfeather! 😀

 

[FF7tickler]

Yeah, the famed D&D books are just full of common RPing stereotypes. I've seen so many different dark elves now.

Like in Gestalt, we have a mercenary one that ends up being attracted to a priest..

 

[Tomato_Dragon]

Kalamos: LOL...oh man. I haven't heard that G.I. Joe name for like...what...about 15 years lol. That brings back some memories.

Fairfeather: Haven't seen ya in a while. Love that new banner. The highlites and shading are awesome. Hehe, and I think I'm about in the same boat as you when it comes to knowledge of elves. Ernie Keebler and his elf boys sure make tasty treats.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ FF7-

Its seems almost commonplace for a female elf to be attracted to a human male. From what I've seen, rarely is it the other way around, or where its a male elf attracted to a human female.

Another interesting point to note is that dark elves aren't necessarily evil. Alot of them just deceit and trickery to meet their ends. And how is that any different than say a corrupt village official? While it is wrong, its not all conclusive.

Again, Pirotess is another example of a more or less good dark elf. She admires Ashram initially because of his authority and unwillingness to allow division in his ranks, even if that is a human against an elf. And in that case, if you remember, it was the human trooper who Ashram smacked to the ground, as it was the human trooper who started it.

"Know this! Men who don't know their limits have no place here!"- Sir Ashram

I'm sure Pirotess was both astonished that Ashram would not show favor on the human, and was hooked by his bishie charms, as well as his ambition.

One thing I've noticed though about elves in general is that universally they are never completely changed to look like or be something that they are not. I've noticed that a great many authors and such keep elves the way they are, and only change little minor things so as to add their own flavor to them.

I like the fact that they universally remain the same. If an elf was a completely different looking creature in one instantance and was normal in the other, that creates a breach wherein too many versions could be inspired. While thats not a problem, it would be in the long run as elves would lose their originality as more and more people change what an elf looks like, what and elf does, and how an elf lives.

Its easier to get away with this with half-elves but its a little more tricky with high and dark ones. Because those two represent the core of the elven race and it be awkward to change anything them dramatically. Without the core of their race intact, you can't create diverse sub-divisions that make sense. Its like starting out with diversity to create more diversity. Something has to be a constant in order for there to be any sort of change.

@ TM-

Any particular cookie of theirs that you like the best?

 

[Fairfeather]

Despite their outwardly innocuous apperance I think the Keebler Elves may indeed be in league with darkest evil. Using partially hydrogenated oils in their sweetly packaged product. Contributing to America's ever-expanding waistline. Teaming up with Snap, Krackle, and Pop to make sugar addicts of us all.

Somebody call Elrond...it's time for a purge!!!

Yup. I have the weekend off from school....can ya tell? 😀