I've been reading a lot about Anime and I've seen in other forums (including this one) and magazines about Anime produced in other countries other than Japan. And I've noticed in these topics that the anime in question were known as fakes. And I'm trying to understand how they are fake. I've heard from several different people that Anime is a term used for Animation, while others look at Anime as a style. So which is it? A style or a term? Is it both? But that's not what bugs me. I guess either way it comes down to this. Nationality. If it's a term, or a style than I don't think Nationality should be an issue, but it is to my surprise. Anime style artists who aren't what? Japanese, from Japan, or living in Japan? I just don't get it... Can someone please explain it to me?
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Anime?
- Thread starter TheFactor
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Sammi-chan
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In my mind, anime implies not just a particular art style, but also a certain style of storytelling that's typically only found in Japan. It's entirely possible for "anime" to be made by non-Japanese artists/animators/whatever, but more often than not, some element will be missing which would make it authentic. Just my view on it.
Celtic_Emperor
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Theres no such thing as a "fake" anime artist, because drawing in that style doesn't have any prerequisites or conditions, other than it is your option to include as much or as little of the japanese style of drawing anime, as you wish.
Animation is a reference to the material. In this sense, japanese animation is no different than a cartoon. They're the same thing technically- a set of images that are made to move through the process of animation.
The term anime is both an abbriviation for animation, and a reference to japanese animation as a genre and medium. Most people will use anime instead of cartoon if they are refering to japanese animation. Many anime fans will take offense to anime being refered to as a "cartoon", because many feel that anime is superior to most western (american) cartoons, in every way and that anime bridges a gap and creates anime for people of all ages and tastes, whereas cartoons are most often only made for children.
Anime art has no nationality. Even when you say japanese anime or manga style, it is not necessarily a reference to any asian influence other than the style itself.
This would be like an asian man who owns an italian restraunt and cooks the food himself. He's making italian food in the italian way. He could attempt some asian spin-off on it, but in our example, he wants to be as authentic as possible. Obviously, his ethnicity or nationality has nothing to do with it. His italian restraunt could be in Italy, America, or Japan. It wouldn't matter.
Alternatively, a non-asian, american artist (like myself) can draw in the anime style free of not having to be concerned with whether the creations are japanese or not and I am free to draw my creations and have them have nothing to do with Japan at all.
However, the bigger problem in anime and in artist creations is that any ethnic background they wish to show is not likely to be apparent unless they create a drawing style in which ethnic features and traits are also apparent.
A character may be named Lara McNichol, for example, and, in the story is credited as being an irish american, but if the style has no way of showing her celtic features or ethnics, she's just going to look like everyone else, who, in most cases are japanese. The problem with anime is that while the japanese share it with us, it is not created for us. Its created for them. Thats why everything is about them, their school system, their workforce, their morals, their codes, their traditions, and their ethics. Its mostly about japanese society. While this is understandable, the inclusion of non-asian characters can lead people to misidentify them, either in the anime, manga (japanese style comic) or fan or artist creation.
Unfortunately, non-japanese artists tend to absorb this also, and end up mimicking japanese stories and tradition in their own stories and creations, and so perpetuate the ambiguity and other issues, through their style.
Fortunately, the japanese are opening up more and creating more and more non-asian characters (and creating plots and stories which don't so much focus on japanese society or at all) and american/non-japanese artists are being more original with their creations and characters. This is all good because then this leads them to developing their own personal drawing styles which will eventually do away with alot of the issues.
Animation is a reference to the material. In this sense, japanese animation is no different than a cartoon. They're the same thing technically- a set of images that are made to move through the process of animation.
The term anime is both an abbriviation for animation, and a reference to japanese animation as a genre and medium. Most people will use anime instead of cartoon if they are refering to japanese animation. Many anime fans will take offense to anime being refered to as a "cartoon", because many feel that anime is superior to most western (american) cartoons, in every way and that anime bridges a gap and creates anime for people of all ages and tastes, whereas cartoons are most often only made for children.
Anime art has no nationality. Even when you say japanese anime or manga style, it is not necessarily a reference to any asian influence other than the style itself.
This would be like an asian man who owns an italian restraunt and cooks the food himself. He's making italian food in the italian way. He could attempt some asian spin-off on it, but in our example, he wants to be as authentic as possible. Obviously, his ethnicity or nationality has nothing to do with it. His italian restraunt could be in Italy, America, or Japan. It wouldn't matter.
Alternatively, a non-asian, american artist (like myself) can draw in the anime style free of not having to be concerned with whether the creations are japanese or not and I am free to draw my creations and have them have nothing to do with Japan at all.
However, the bigger problem in anime and in artist creations is that any ethnic background they wish to show is not likely to be apparent unless they create a drawing style in which ethnic features and traits are also apparent.
A character may be named Lara McNichol, for example, and, in the story is credited as being an irish american, but if the style has no way of showing her celtic features or ethnics, she's just going to look like everyone else, who, in most cases are japanese. The problem with anime is that while the japanese share it with us, it is not created for us. Its created for them. Thats why everything is about them, their school system, their workforce, their morals, their codes, their traditions, and their ethics. Its mostly about japanese society. While this is understandable, the inclusion of non-asian characters can lead people to misidentify them, either in the anime, manga (japanese style comic) or fan or artist creation.
Unfortunately, non-japanese artists tend to absorb this also, and end up mimicking japanese stories and tradition in their own stories and creations, and so perpetuate the ambiguity and other issues, through their style.
Fortunately, the japanese are opening up more and creating more and more non-asian characters (and creating plots and stories which don't so much focus on japanese society or at all) and american/non-japanese artists are being more original with their creations and characters. This is all good because then this leads them to developing their own personal drawing styles which will eventually do away with alot of the issues.
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Hmm... I actually understand where you are coming from. But I guess some people would call it fake anime regardless if it had anything to do with Japan, or asians. I guess it just depends on the person in question.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Celtic_Emperor
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TheFactor said:
You're welcome. 🙂
I think the accusers who call people "fake" are using the wrong terminology to begin with. For instance, its not really fake more than it would be uninventive if all you're doing is copying something thats already been done to such a degree that it would recieve contempt.
Or, lets put it another way:
Alot of people say wrestling (WWE kind of wrestling) is fake.
Thats the wrong terminology. Wrestling is not fake. Its staged, scripted, and choreographed. It is not FAKE however. The wrestling is very real, it does hurt, it is exhausting, and it can be dangerous.
When people call wrestling fake, that trivializes all the good things about it or pushes them aside without clarifying in what context you are meaning that it is fake. The choice of a more hurtful, generic term, rather than a more technically correct term is the problem which would lead to a dispute.
Its the same with this anime question you have. Just because someone doesn't draw the way some official artist for some anime series draws, doesn't make what they choose to draw invalid, nor does drawing non-asian characters but in the anime style invalid, either.
Hell, if thats the case, then lots of what I draw is invalid and I'm fake too. Heaven forgive my blasphemy of not drawing in the style of the founding fathers of anime. 😛
Celtic_Emperor
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This seems to really concern you. Do you mind my asking what sparked the questions, specifically?
Well honestly it's all this talk I hear about nationality and race not mattering for most situations and than suddenly it seems to be the only thing that mattered, and anime actually fell into this category and Anime means a lot to me. I mean I can't draw worth a lick, but if I ever learn how to than Anime would be the style I would like to learn. And I would like my art to be appreciated for being art and not called fake simply because I'm white and American.
Celtic_Emperor
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I know what you're talking about. People like that, in this business, we call them fanatics, elitists, purists, and anime nazis. These are the people (many of which are ironically american fans who are so into it you could practically call them brainwashed) who believe that anime should only be available in japanese and with subtitles and that anything more than that is a sort of blasphemy and disrespect to the genre and japanese people.
These people are quick to point out things that offend them and offend the japanese people (they take it upon themselves to represent all of Japan), they have a huge loathing for american dubbing, and these are usually the guys who are so into anime that its like a lifestyle for them. These are the people that buy pocky (when all pocky is is just wafers on a stick), japanese treats, literature, and will even go to the lengths of ordering imports of these things just so they can wave them around and show their friends what an anime fan they are. The business is getting rich off these people. They're more than willing to practically sell their souls to their japanese masters, and the business, in turn, sees a profit margin in them.
They're just posers dude. They invest all of their time to create this image that will impress people. So if you run into people like this who are going to start spouting about anime should only deal with asian things, and how it can only be subtitles (which if it weren't for subtitles they wouldn't be able to understand what they're saying, if they love Japan so much, learn the language and watch anime raw, like the japanese people do when it airs on japanese tv), then just ignore them.
These people try so hard it isn't funny. Their contempt for everything that isn't so leads people to have a contempt for them.
So just draw anime to your heart's content and take inspiration from whatever you want to. Things are changing, and any snob who wants to say you don't count has got another thing coming.
More and more americans (black, white, hispanic, etc) are becoming or are very good artists who can complete at both the amateur and professional levels, with our japanese counterparts. All we need to do is organize, and we'll be able to produce anime style shows in America, too, and american artist will create them. They've got nothing on us really, and race has nothing to do with it. Take your art where its more likely to be surrounded by people who have the same good spirit about it that you do, and things will be fine.
And if you run into an anime nazi, jap slap him. LOL 😀 (Hey, if they're so into their asian culture when they're not even asian, they should know how to chop you) 😛
These people are quick to point out things that offend them and offend the japanese people (they take it upon themselves to represent all of Japan), they have a huge loathing for american dubbing, and these are usually the guys who are so into anime that its like a lifestyle for them. These are the people that buy pocky (when all pocky is is just wafers on a stick), japanese treats, literature, and will even go to the lengths of ordering imports of these things just so they can wave them around and show their friends what an anime fan they are. The business is getting rich off these people. They're more than willing to practically sell their souls to their japanese masters, and the business, in turn, sees a profit margin in them.
They're just posers dude. They invest all of their time to create this image that will impress people. So if you run into people like this who are going to start spouting about anime should only deal with asian things, and how it can only be subtitles (which if it weren't for subtitles they wouldn't be able to understand what they're saying, if they love Japan so much, learn the language and watch anime raw, like the japanese people do when it airs on japanese tv), then just ignore them.
These people try so hard it isn't funny. Their contempt for everything that isn't so leads people to have a contempt for them.
So just draw anime to your heart's content and take inspiration from whatever you want to. Things are changing, and any snob who wants to say you don't count has got another thing coming.
More and more americans (black, white, hispanic, etc) are becoming or are very good artists who can complete at both the amateur and professional levels, with our japanese counterparts. All we need to do is organize, and we'll be able to produce anime style shows in America, too, and american artist will create them. They've got nothing on us really, and race has nothing to do with it. Take your art where its more likely to be surrounded by people who have the same good spirit about it that you do, and things will be fine.
And if you run into an anime nazi, jap slap him. LOL 😀 (Hey, if they're so into their asian culture when they're not even asian, they should know how to chop you) 😛
lol. Your right there are too many people like that who love anime and hate anyone who isn't asian who try and produce it. And I actually know a few people who do import anime just to have it before anyone else. Anyways I plan on getting into art, and I won't be afraid to show it off. To tell the truth I was actually expecting an arguement, but you really cleared things up for me. I guess I was wrong because I thought nearly everyone thought this way, I didn't know that people who said this stuff were just anime nazis... which is a dumb thing to be.
It means a lot to me because I've seen so many great animes. And I'm not talking about DBZ and stuff like that. I'm talking about "Spirited Away" and "Princess MononokoE" anything made by studio Ghibli, and Hayao Miyazaki.
Well thanks again man! I appreciate it!
It means a lot to me because I've seen so many great animes. And I'm not talking about DBZ and stuff like that. I'm talking about "Spirited Away" and "Princess MononokoE" anything made by studio Ghibli, and Hayao Miyazaki.
Well thanks again man! I appreciate it!
Celtic_Emperor
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TheFactor said:
No problem. You're welcome. 🙂
Not everyone that fits the discription may be an anime nazi, but many people are very overzealous about it and that can be just as annoying. This isn't to say that people who disagree with you are anime nazis, but if they're willing to go to the point of an all-out debate over something really trivial like BGM (background music) or a character's voice actor or something like that, then you'll know to probably leave them be.
Shows like DBZ, Pokemon, etc, are all syndicated shows, and they don't really represent what anime is, so when ignorant people or anime haters mock anime, they're usually using shows like this as a standard, because only shows like that end up getting aired on network programming. Adult Swim changed that, but the problem of having access to anime without having to buy or rent it is still a problem in America, and in some countries you cannot even buy anime, you have to special order it.
I noticed your thread about religion in the P&R forum here, and made references to anime. If you haven't already, I suggest watching Neon Genesis Evangelion. Its not only one of the best animes out there, but it makes for great conversations. At any rate, this is now more of a personal conversation than something anyone can just jump in on, so I'll stop it here.
Feel free to PM or e-mail me if you have any questions with your anime or art. 🙂
Lauren Tyler
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To me, I think it's more of an opinion really. Anime can either be a style of art, or it can be the storytelling, or both. It doesn't really matter. If someone wants to consider their art an anime style, that's fine with me.
ticklez_gurl
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Anime just has a special look to it, and for some reason the Japanese illustrators capture that look better than others.
Dr. Ticklefesto
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Anime means everything, from Japanimation to American cartoons.
It's elitist okatus on the internet that forced the "ANIME CAN ONLY MEAN JAPANESE STUFF" idea due to their infactuation with Japan and their desire to distance their obsession from "the inferior culture."
Anime only applies to Japanese cartoons only if you go by the obsessed otaku losers' definition.
(To clarify, I'm not calling any of you who said "Anime is Japanese" a loser, mearly the losers who forced that idea)
It's elitist okatus on the internet that forced the "ANIME CAN ONLY MEAN JAPANESE STUFF" idea due to their infactuation with Japan and their desire to distance their obsession from "the inferior culture."
Anime only applies to Japanese cartoons only if you go by the obsessed otaku losers' definition.
(To clarify, I'm not calling any of you who said "Anime is Japanese" a loser, mearly the losers who forced that idea)
Celtic_Emperor
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Dr. Ticklefesto said:
I don't think you need to worry about this, because no one yet has said anime is japanese, necessarily. Technically, animation is animation no matter what style its drawn in or who it comes from, and thats the first point I made.
I don't think one can blame otaku losers on the internet for people associating anime with japanese animation, though, since thats the way it's been marketed in North America. Its presented to us as a foreign delicacy and we pay top dollar for it, so it has to be treated different for it to be as marketable and profitable. People associate, by simply visualization, Yogi Bear with a cartoon and Faye Valentine with anime, for example. People make the differences based on what they see more than what people tell them.
Some otaku loser has very little to do with it, unless you let him and you're impressionable and ignorant. And really, thats what they want. They want to come across as smart and knowledgable, because they consider this their field of expertise. They're just looking to impress, not necessarily know anything, which is part of what makes them losers to begin with.
ChosenofMystra
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Celtic_Emperor said:
Oh God how I loathe these losers. My friend is the spitting image of what you just described and it has driven me to new levels of insanity lol
Celtic_Emperor
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ChosenofMystra said:Oh God how I loathe these losers. My friend is the spitting image of what you just described and it has driven me to new levels of insanity lol
My sympathies.
Okay, first of all: Even though I live in Japan at the moment, I've got to admit that I'm not much into anime or manga. I'm also no artist but I love art depending - of course - on the artwork.
Now, something I don't really get is who decides about this "fake" issue. Shouldn't that be the Japanese? I don't recognize that they do.
First, the Japanese Term "A-NI-ME" (アニメ ) is an abbrevation of the term "A-NI-ME-E-SHO-N" (アニメーション ) which means nothing but "animation" and originally refers to cartoons as you guys figured out before. The reason why it is also used as a term to describe a style is actually because it uses specific features that were invented to make the production cheaper as there is a huge demand for animated films in Japan. The drawing technique itself is one of those features and developed out of what we Westerners call "Manga" which just means "comic" (humorous or serious) and thus describes again almost any kind of such work. So using it as term for a certain style is something non-Japanese do. The pictures they refer to should actually been drawn in a minimalistic style that uses special patterns of expressions...blabla...I guess you guys know more about these features than I do.
Anyways, Ever since I am here in Japan these terms are not used to discriminate between the nationality or ethnical background of the artist. To discriminate you just add the nationality. e.g. "This manga is drawn by an American." Or "This is an American anime." Nobody argues about the use of the terms "anime" or "manga" as both are just general expressions in Japanese, you argue about if you like what you see.
Don't know if that was of any interest.
Now, something I don't really get is who decides about this "fake" issue. Shouldn't that be the Japanese? I don't recognize that they do.
First, the Japanese Term "A-NI-ME" (アニメ ) is an abbrevation of the term "A-NI-ME-E-SHO-N" (アニメーション ) which means nothing but "animation" and originally refers to cartoons as you guys figured out before. The reason why it is also used as a term to describe a style is actually because it uses specific features that were invented to make the production cheaper as there is a huge demand for animated films in Japan. The drawing technique itself is one of those features and developed out of what we Westerners call "Manga" which just means "comic" (humorous or serious) and thus describes again almost any kind of such work. So using it as term for a certain style is something non-Japanese do. The pictures they refer to should actually been drawn in a minimalistic style that uses special patterns of expressions...blabla...I guess you guys know more about these features than I do.
Anyways, Ever since I am here in Japan these terms are not used to discriminate between the nationality or ethnical background of the artist. To discriminate you just add the nationality. e.g. "This manga is drawn by an American." Or "This is an American anime." Nobody argues about the use of the terms "anime" or "manga" as both are just general expressions in Japanese, you argue about if you like what you see.
Don't know if that was of any interest.
Celtic_Emperor
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Its nothing I didn't already know, but thanks for your post and imput. It was of interest. 🙂
And really, again, you touch on a point I made briefly earlier in that animation is animation. The people making the differences to form a judgement are the obsessed fans from either side. The actual creators are just doing their thing like they always do.
So, when you've got people like these american obsessed otakus who think its blashphemy on the part of the west to dub anime, or whatever their tiff is, they're just making pretensious fools of themselves. Nobody really cares since everyone is going to look at what they're going to look at and enjoy what they enjoy.
And really, again, you touch on a point I made briefly earlier in that animation is animation. The people making the differences to form a judgement are the obsessed fans from either side. The actual creators are just doing their thing like they always do.
So, when you've got people like these american obsessed otakus who think its blashphemy on the part of the west to dub anime, or whatever their tiff is, they're just making pretensious fools of themselves. Nobody really cares since everyone is going to look at what they're going to look at and enjoy what they enjoy.
Celtic_Emperor
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They should be grateful we even have japanese animation available to us here in the States at all.
That might be a point but that is somehow the effect of an open global market, isn't it. I think they should start to stop being otaku, go out and live their lifes. Mingle a little with the rest of the world and figure out that there is more than one style in art. And that's a fact also for Japan. I love modern Art and here are some awesome places to see some. And I used to like some aspects about the puristic drawing style used in most of the Japanese animated movies or in the comics common here (Japan) when I was younger and depending on the artwork I still do. Anyways, anyone who behaves like the otakus described in this thread is a pitiable being and further, deserves to be called 'narrow-minded' if criticizing the work of an artist as 'fake' due to his national or ethnical background and not due to his skill.
