Can Priests Be Called Into Testify What A Person Says Under Confession?

[JimBoy]

I understand that confession is a sanctity between God and everything in that room is between the confessor, the priest, and God. When it comes to crimes and criminal intent does this remain true?

I know that for doctor/patient, teacher/student, adult/child.. that if they feel that someone's life is in danger or they witness visible signs of abuse that they are required to turn that information into the authorities; with or without the person's consent.

Now for confession, are there any rules or circumstances where it is permitted that the priest "breaks the seal" and is required to go to the authorities? Or it is not permitted whatsoever?

I also wonder if a priest can be treated as an accomplice if he is aware of criminal activity going on and doesn't do anything? Does being "under confession" mean you are clear with the law?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Bashiku]

They can't tell in any situation... even if it was their life in question they can just be silent about the stuff you confess...

 

[gilmourwaters]

no they cannot...but we can testify against a priest (which seems to happen on a regular basis nowadays)

 

[bobc1313]

In the U.S., a priest cannot be compelled to testify to the content of a confession, as it's protected by the First Amendment. However, whether the priest chooses to testify is strictly his own decision. He would certainly be violating a sacrament of the church, but if he chooses to do so, there's nothing to prevent it, other than the possibility of excommunication.

There've certainly been such cases, Montalvo v. New York comes to mind, where a priest chose to testify in support of the appeal after another person confessed to the murder for which Montalvo was convicted. Albeit in this circumstance, the archdiocese held that the information was obtained in a conversation, rather than sacramental confession, so the priest was let off the hook.

Secular authorities have typically been respectful of the confessional's confidentiality, although there have been cases, such as the one in Oregon where an inmate's confession was clandestinely taped. The tape was later sealed after a challenge based on the the Fourth Amendment, rather than the First.

Some states (e.g., New Jersey) have enacted clergy-penitent privilege statutes which spell out in more granularity to what extent privilege may be extended, to the inclusion of confidential conversations outside of confession, as well as church documents or recordings. Some are considered privileged, while others are not.

And so, once again, while clerics may not Constitutionally be compelled to testify to the content of a confession, individual conscience will always determine whether or not the sacramental stricture is followed.

In country's other than the U.S.A., YMMV.

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

No a Priest cannot break his ''oath of silence'' or whatever you want to call it however he does punish you in a sense because you have to go to God and pray for forgiveness and you have to say so many Hail Marys and Our Fathers for repentance

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

I'm going to say that confessions should be removed from Catholic doctrine. They serve no purpose in the actual redemption of a person whose actions have caused pain and suffering to others. In fact the act of confession rather encourages the confessor to just forget the whole crime altogether since he or she is safe and secure in the knowledge that the priest can never violate his oath of silence in the matter.

I prefer the Babylon 5 (a science fiction space show) approach to how the church should operate in terms of criminals. A criminal who proves to be irredeemable would suffer, "death of personality" (or a mind wipe) and have his brain reorganized to have a new personality and then the criminal would spend the rest of his life serving the community which he harmed (aka doing charitable works and good deeds as overseen by the church).

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

I'm going to say that confessions should be removed from Catholic doctrine. They serve no purpose in the actual redemption of a person whose actions have caused pain and suffering to others. In fact the act of confession rather encourages the confessor to just forget the whole crime altogether since he or she is safe and secure in the knowledge that the priest can never violate his oath of silence in the matter.

As a Catholic I disagree and I am fairly certain that Pope Benedict would agree with me. And believe me, I have my own personal disagreements with the Church, but confession is one of the things that they do right.

Now, on what basis do you make the assumption that confession has no effect on the redemption of the confessor. If someone goes to confession and is not truthful in the desire to be forgiven then no absolution is granted. That goes without being said for Catholics in confession or anyone else who wishes absolution from God. Furthermore, an honest confession is a good first step for someone who wishes to turn their life around.

If there were no protections for confessors, married people or lawyer client privilege then those institutions would lose any effect for people seeking counsel.

I prefer the Babylon 5 (a science fiction space show) approach to how the church should operate in terms of criminals. A criminal who proves to be irredeemable would suffer, "death of personality" (or a mind wipe) and have his brain reorganized to have a new personality and then the criminal would spend the rest of his life serving the community which he harmed (aka doing charitable works and good deeds as overseen by the church).

I saw that episode, B5 rocks. Once the technology is viable I'm sure something like that will be in use. It's not a half-bad idea, but any technology like that would require a strict overseeing authority. I see that more in use to heal the mentally ill than in a legal justice use. There would be all sorts of human rights concerns with that technology.

 

[JimBoy]

I'm going to say that confessions should be removed from Catholic doctrine. They serve no purpose in the actual redemption of a person whose actions have caused pain and suffering to others. In fact the act of confession rather encourages the confessor to just forget the whole crime altogether since he or she is safe and secure in the knowledge that the priest can never violate his oath of silence in the matter.

I don't think it should be totally done away with it. If a person is really repentant then they need a place to turn to for spiritual guidance.

The more I have been looking into this is even when it comes to criminal action everything that you say in confession is not supposed to be leaked. I also would like to assume that the priest will tell the person if they want to fully repent and earn God's forgiveness then they must turn themselves over to the proper authorities. That is the extent the priest has and it is up to the person to make that decision himself. When there is no seal of confession and someone divulges criminal action to a priest then they are obligated to turn the information over; under confession it looks like they are not.


However, today there are many groups fighting to have the "code of silence" thing in confession done away with. This is mainly due to the child sex abuse going on in the Church. The reason for this is because if a fellow priest confesses to a fellow priest about what he has done then nothing is done (as far as the law is concerned) over the sex abuse. The priests are not allowed to report anything and it is in the offender's hands.

Is holding the rule more important than the safety and well being of a child; or any person's life for that matter? That's the main argument.

 

[sadi]

I actually was just talking about this with my pastor; he had situations where he was asked. Anything said in councilling is confidential; the pastor can be recording the session without your permission, if it's solely you and them. As long as the pastor states to the person that they are a pastor and this is a council, the role is clear, nothing can be legally shared- that is, unless a person confesses an illegal action; then it is their obligation to inform the authorities. It should be made clear beforehand that anything shared will stay confidential as long as an illegal action isn't taken; I believe it must be reported to the authorities then, immediately if there is suspicion of abuse.
In court, he thought that if it's regarding a murder, the 'code of silence' is overruled, and they have to divulge the information for fear of being charged themselves.
I'm pretty sure that's what was stated.

 

[Tickleslave83]

No a Priest cannot break his ''oath of silence'' or whatever you want to call it however he does punish you in a sense because you have to go to God and pray for forgiveness and you have to say so many Hail Marys and Our Fathers for repentance

Compared to serving 25 to life in prison for murder saying a few hail marys seems like a lite punishment 😉.

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

I'm going to say that confessions should be removed from Catholic doctrine. They serve no purpose in the actual redemption of a person whose actions have caused pain and suffering to others. In fact the act of confession rather encourages the confessor to just forget the whole crime altogether since he or she is safe and secure in the knowledge that the priest can never violate his oath of silence in the matter.

I prefer the Babylon 5 (a science fiction space show) approach to how the church should operate in terms of criminals. A criminal who proves to be irredeemable would suffer, "death of personality" (or a mind wipe) and have his brain reorganized to have a new personality and then the criminal would spend the rest of his life serving the community which he harmed (aka doing charitable works and good deeds as overseen by the church).

No,it actually does have a correct place in the religion.You are going to confess your sins to God and are admitting that you sinned and wish to ask god back into your heart and soul as your savior and you are repenting for your sins and because God loves you so much and is forgiving,he forgives you and wipes your slate clean.Your punishment is that you must say a few hail marys and our fathers.He asks in return that you forgive others in your life for the wrong they have done you,that you love others as much as you love yourself,that you love nothing more then him,that you do not kill or steal,that you honor your mother and father,that you do not have sex out of marriage and three other things I can't remember some also believe that he doesn't want you to be gay but that is debatable

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

No, it actually does have a correct place in the religion.

I know it has a place in the teachings of Christianity QB. What I'm saying is that particular part of the teaching is flawed...at least in my perspective.

You are going to confess your sins to God and are admitting that you sinned and wish to ask god back into your heart and soul as your savior and you are repenting for your sins and because God loves you so much and is forgiving,he forgives you and wipes your slate clean.

So, I murder someone and then hose down another twenty people in a crowded street with a semi-automatic and then all I have to do is confess my sin to a priest and my slate will be wiped clean? Damn. Thanks god. LOL.

Your punishment is that you must say a few hail mary's and god asks in return that you forgive others in your life for the wrong they have done you.

Hail Mary. I forgive the cops for shooting me in the gut to bring me down for murdering twenty one people. I forgive the judge for sentencing me to life in prison. Hail Mary.

That you love others as much as you love yourself.

Since god is just asking me to do all of this, I'll decline that part. I still get my slate cleaned after all.

That you love nothing more then him.

I just hosed down twenty people and he's letting me into heaven. Are you kidding, bitch, I'll freaking sleep with the lord on high to show I love him.

That you do not kill or steal.

King of too late about doing something like that (Note - in case no one figures it out the part about me killing people is a sarcastic joke and I mean no offense to QB). Boy, good thing god is just asking me to do that huh?

That you honor your mother and father.

Wow...I have to honor the person who physically and sexually abused my Mom into becoming a crack ***** and thus resulted in my birth and my Mom nearly killing me in a meth lab explosion? Well, um, good thing god is just asking (again, this is all just to make a sarcastic point).

That you do not have sex out of marriage and three other things I can't remember.

So unless a person can get married by the church he isn't allowed to procreate without god frowning on him. Damn, sucks for all the world's non catholics.

Some also believe that he doesn't want you to be gay.

I wonder if god makes exceptions to psychological trauma brought on by a rape experience which prevents a woman from having any intimate relationship with a man whatsoever without wanting to vomit because she sees her rapists face every time she looks into her intimate one's face.

Again, I mean no offense to ya QB. I'm just poking holes in Catholicism.

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

So, I murder someone and then hose down another twenty people in a crowded street with a semi-automatic and then all I have to do is confess my sin to a priest and my slate will be wiped clean? Damn. Thanks god. LOL.

No you are missing the point entirely. You would not be forgiven if you were not actually penitent. You actually need to feel sorrow, remorse, guilt and a desire set things right otherwise your confession is meaningless.

 

[eagphilly]

I'm just poking holes in Catholicism.

This guy did it too, he beat you by over 500 years 😉

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther

 

[Tickleslave83]

Imagine if confession was part of the US legal system?!
Judge: You stand accussed of multiple counts of rape, murder, arson, theft and terrorism, how do you plead?
Criminal:I'm guilty and honestly I'm very very sorry.
Judge: I sentence you to say 3000 Hail Marys.
Criminal: That's harsh dude, really harsh!😉

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

I know it has a place in the teachings of Christianity QB. What I'm saying is that particular part of the teaching is flawed...at least in my perspective.



So, I murder someone and then hose down another twenty people in a crowded street with a semi-automatic and then all I have to do is confess my sin to a priest and my slate will be wiped clean? Damn. Thanks god. LOL.



Hail Mary. I forgive the cops for shooting me in the gut to bring me down for murdering twenty one people. I forgive the judge for sentencing me to life in prison. Hail Mary.



Since god is just asking me to do all of this, I'll decline that part. I still get my slate cleaned after all.



I just hosed down twenty people and he's letting me into heaven. Are you kidding, bitch, I'll freaking sleep with the lord on high to show I love him.



King of too late about doing something like that (Note - in case no one figures it out the part about me killing people is a sarcastic joke and I mean no offense to QB). Boy, good thing god is just asking me to do that huh?



Wow...I have to honor the person who physically and sexually abused my Mom into becoming a crack ***** and thus resulted in my birth and my Mom nearly killing me in a meth lab explosion? Well, um, good thing god is just asking (again, this is all just to make a sarcastic point).



So unless a person can get married by the church he isn't allowed to procreate without god frowning on him. Damn, sucks for all the world's non catholics.



I wonder if god makes exceptions to psychological trauma brought on by a rape experience which prevents a woman from having any intimate relationship with a man whatsoever without wanting to vomit because she sees her rapists face every time she looks into her intimate one's face.

Again, I mean no offense to ya QB. I'm just poking holes in Catholicism.

It's ok man I'm not Catholic or Christian and that was a great laugh!I was raised catholic but after a looooooooooooooooooooong story I turned into uh kind of a Pagan but I don't follow any religion strictly.Now back on subject you have to really be sorry in your heart and mean that you are truly sorry and will not do it again.Then,you have to ask God and the Holy Spirit back into your heart in order to be forgiven.He will know if you are just messing around.If you do not repent for your sins and you are not truly sorry you will burn in hell for eternity.Or go to Purgatory which ever you believe in.

 

[QueenBeeBeeMari]

No you are missing the point entirely. You would not be forgiven if you were not actually penitent. You actually need to feel sorrow, remorse, guilt and a desire set things right otherwise your confession is meaningless.

exactly

 

[bobc1313]

I actually was just talking about this with my pastor; he had situations where he was asked. Anything said in councilling is confidential; the pastor can be recording the session without your permission, if it's solely you and them. As long as the pastor states to the person that they are a pastor and this is a council, the role is clear, nothing can be legally shared- that is, unless a person confesses an illegal action; then it is their obligation to inform the authorities. It should be made clear beforehand that anything shared will stay confidential as long as an illegal action isn't taken; I believe it must be reported to the authorities then, immediately if there is suspicion of abuse.
In court, he thought that if it's regarding a murder, the 'code of silence' is overruled, and they have to divulge the information for fear of being charged themselves.
I'm pretty sure that's what was stated.

Unless your pastor is a catholic priest, and the conversation was part of the sacrament of confession, it may not be considered privileged by a court, just as discussions with a catholic priest outside of confession are probably not privileged.

It's a First Amendment issue because of the Free Exercise clause. There's a long-standing precedent of confession as a sacrament, bound by inviolable confidentiality, within catholicism. Non-catholic churches don't have that precedent.

Take for example Westbrook v. Penley in 2007, where The Texas Supreme Court refused to entertain a parishioner's lawsuit against her pastor for revealing her extramarital affair. Basically, there was no overriding expectation of absolute confidentiality which would permit a challenge. There are lots of other cases where non-sacramental conversations, counselling sessions, documents, etc. have been made public or turned over to legal authorities. Indeed more and more states are requiring that church officials report known offenses, particularly in cases of child abuse.