ShiningIce
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Ok, August the thread is started do your thing. 😎
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Capitalism
- Thread starter ShiningIce
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kurchatovium
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At this point I would like to thank august and Ice for getting me close "TMF MASTER" status. Without you it would not have been possible. Merry Christmas to you both.
kurchatovium
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I'll go along with that amk. Merry Christmas to you too.
august spies
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some facts before we begin.
world population: 6billion
living on 2 dollars a day: 2 billion
living on 1 dollar a day: 1 billion
tens of thousands die from hunger every day and tens of thousands die from preventable disease every day.
Most of the worlds resources are in the global south, most of the worlds money is in the North. Most of the worlds military force is in the north. Most human rights violations are committed in the South, with the support of the North. Most militaries in the South are used against their own people. Most arms are manufacturing in the North, almost all arms are shipped from the North to the South.
The three major capitalist tools are international banking, international corporate power (wto) and international militarism.
next thread ill detail all three and what they do, and what they have done.
world population: 6billion
living on 2 dollars a day: 2 billion
living on 1 dollar a day: 1 billion
tens of thousands die from hunger every day and tens of thousands die from preventable disease every day.
Most of the worlds resources are in the global south, most of the worlds money is in the North. Most of the worlds military force is in the north. Most human rights violations are committed in the South, with the support of the North. Most militaries in the South are used against their own people. Most arms are manufacturing in the North, almost all arms are shipped from the North to the South.
The three major capitalist tools are international banking, international corporate power (wto) and international militarism.
next thread ill detail all three and what they do, and what they have done.
Biggles of 266
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my thoughts on communism/socialism
A very noble idea, everyone working to support everyone else. Everyone takes what they need, and shares stuff around. However...
It doesn't take into account the basic bastard-ness of human nature. If you have the choice between working for the greater good vs. f*cking your comrade over to get more money for yourself, 99% of humanity would go for the extra money. Of course, it didn't help that the people who put the public face on communism (like Stalin) had genocide on their daily 'to-do' lists. A nice idea, but it couldn't stand up to the cold hard 'fuck you, where's my big screen tv' mentality of people like us.
Biggles
A very noble idea, everyone working to support everyone else. Everyone takes what they need, and shares stuff around. However...
It doesn't take into account the basic bastard-ness of human nature. If you have the choice between working for the greater good vs. f*cking your comrade over to get more money for yourself, 99% of humanity would go for the extra money. Of course, it didn't help that the people who put the public face on communism (like Stalin) had genocide on their daily 'to-do' lists. A nice idea, but it couldn't stand up to the cold hard 'fuck you, where's my big screen tv' mentality of people like us.
Biggles
TickledToDeath
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Simply this...
...while I am NOT religious...the ONLY ture words in the Bible/Gospel,
"Greed is the root of ALL evil".
&^&^%%^%$#*(^$#$%^^&*&%^$%^(*&^* there is MORE than enough to go around so that every single human being on this rock called Earth could live a happy and comfortable life.
Sadly, it won't be seen in OUR lifetime or the current childrens'.
TTD
...while I am NOT religious...the ONLY ture words in the Bible/Gospel,
"Greed is the root of ALL evil".
&^&^%%^%$#*(^$#$%^^&*&%^$%^(*&^* there is MORE than enough to go around so that every single human being on this rock called Earth could live a happy and comfortable life.
Sadly, it won't be seen in OUR lifetime or the current childrens'.
TTD
Hmmmmm................... now here's some food for thought.
Capitalism isn't any more about exploitation of vulnerable people, than communism was SUPPOSED to be about about food queues, longer than the queue to the welfare office of Al Gore's campaign staff. However let's examine some things here........
Capitalism at it's noblest is a system that rewards people who put more into the system by giving them higher rewards. It is also supposed to generate higher levels of competition between factions with the result of higher standards going to the eventual winner.
Communism at it's noblest, (as espoused by Jesus Christ if you believe in him) was supposed to be about every man being the comrade and brother of his neighbour, no-one getting shit on by powerful companies and equality of human kind. (Suprisingly similar to the call of "liberty, equality and fraternity" during the French Revolution; which according to the "official" point of view was as far from communism as you can get!) It was not supposed to be anything about food queues, firing squads, secret police, hard rationing, military dictatorship and concentration camps.
Notice any similarities above? Both systems have noble concepts and both have been fucked over left, right and centre by people who manipulate the system. I have no patience with anyone who believes that one doctrine is the best and all followers of the other should be blasted or ridiculed to death. It's all very well to talk about so many people being on the poverty line in rich capitalist countries, (not that there's been a lot of it in this thread, but there might be soon) but some of the poorest beggards in the world live in places like Vietnam, North Korea or the now defunct, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. ( What the hell did CCCP ever stand for?😕 )
Neither doctrine is the answer because both are warped and bent out of their original meaning and designs, by people with a common cause and a wonderful knack for setting the poor ignoarant bastards of each nation, at each others throats.
Capitalism isn't any more about exploitation of vulnerable people, than communism was SUPPOSED to be about about food queues, longer than the queue to the welfare office of Al Gore's campaign staff. However let's examine some things here........
Capitalism at it's noblest is a system that rewards people who put more into the system by giving them higher rewards. It is also supposed to generate higher levels of competition between factions with the result of higher standards going to the eventual winner.
Communism at it's noblest, (as espoused by Jesus Christ if you believe in him) was supposed to be about every man being the comrade and brother of his neighbour, no-one getting shit on by powerful companies and equality of human kind. (Suprisingly similar to the call of "liberty, equality and fraternity" during the French Revolution; which according to the "official" point of view was as far from communism as you can get!) It was not supposed to be anything about food queues, firing squads, secret police, hard rationing, military dictatorship and concentration camps.
Notice any similarities above? Both systems have noble concepts and both have been fucked over left, right and centre by people who manipulate the system. I have no patience with anyone who believes that one doctrine is the best and all followers of the other should be blasted or ridiculed to death. It's all very well to talk about so many people being on the poverty line in rich capitalist countries, (not that there's been a lot of it in this thread, but there might be soon) but some of the poorest beggards in the world live in places like Vietnam, North Korea or the now defunct, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. ( What the hell did CCCP ever stand for?😕 )
Neither doctrine is the answer because both are warped and bent out of their original meaning and designs, by people with a common cause and a wonderful knack for setting the poor ignoarant bastards of each nation, at each others throats.
kurchatovium
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There is a net result of the differences:
Captilism results in a higher standard of living for everyone not just the winners.
Communism results usually in a lower standard of living for everyone and everyone loses.
Captilism results in a higher standard of living for everyone not just the winners.
Communism results usually in a lower standard of living for everyone and everyone loses.
kurchatovium said:
I would'nt agree 100% with either of those Kurch; but I agree more than disagree. Not everyone wins under capitalism, but I do believe that the overall standard of living is easier. I would say that the best standard is achieved by those who work for the biggest private companies though.
Likewise, communism results in good living for those who activley support and work for, the state. (Military and civil service mainly.)
However, I now have a question for y'all. Who makes the money? The government? Nope. Big transnationals? Nope again. Money is invented out of thin air by privately owned banks and then loaned at interest to governments and private individuals. When these privatley owned banks do this, they don't actually do anything, apart from type these numbers onto a computer screen. No money is printed, no prescious metal is mined or melted. They just invent money that doesn't exist and then charge interest on it. This interest in re-couped by screwing the citizens of various countries through the floor, be they capitalist or communist. Both regimes borrow heavily from these privatley owned banks, no matter what they say publicly.
Now I have a question. Would'nt it be a good idea for governments to create their own money so they don't have to borrow it at interest when it's no more than money on a screen? After all if bloody private banks can do it, why can't elected governments? If they didn't rip the arse out of it and print too much so that inflation rode everything out of control, it would work. John F. Kennedy had this idea. He thought much of what I've just written in the above paragraph. He even had a plan he was mooting about implementing for the US government to print it's own money and mint it's own coinage rather than just have token of it on money from banks. One other US president also had this national poverty busting idea. His name was Abraham Lincoln. Both also had a record of going against the "official" line and instead going for things that would seem more sensible and publicly motivated. They also have something else in common, but I can't remember what it is right now.............
kurchatovium
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BigJim I would grant you the first more than the second. Although I suppose ultimately there are no absolutes.
Communism: Romania, USSR, Cuba, North Korea, China, etc.
Not exactly a hit parade I want to be part of.
Many of these goverments haven fallen apart and are
picking up the pieces so to speak. Maybe there are
some communists who benefited from the system at the
expense of others but I hesitate to call it a real
success story.
I kinda like your money ideal I wish I knew more about economics to know if it would really work but I always liked Kennedy and Lincoln as presidents. Kennedy had good taste in women too. The other thing they have in common is they both died of lead poisoning.😉
Communism: Romania, USSR, Cuba, North Korea, China, etc.
Not exactly a hit parade I want to be part of.
Many of these goverments haven fallen apart and are
picking up the pieces so to speak. Maybe there are
some communists who benefited from the system at the
expense of others but I hesitate to call it a real
success story.
I kinda like your money ideal I wish I knew more about economics to know if it would really work but I always liked Kennedy and Lincoln as presidents. Kennedy had good taste in women too. The other thing they have in common is they both died of lead poisoning.😉
august spies
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amk people only really die in places run by capitalist governments, as a government goes more left wing, the less its people die. no one dies of hunger in cuba, unlike el salvador or guatamala. and no stalinist north korea is not leftist it is stalinist.
a long post is on its way, this was just a direct reply to amk
a long post is on its way, this was just a direct reply to amk
TickledToDeath
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BigJim said:
And both were assinated and NOT by who "History" has led us to believe!
I could go on and on about what is really going on but I will save it all for the book I am working on.
You will know it when you see it, that is if any publisher has the
"PRUNES" to print it when it is done!
TTD
kurchatovium
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To those that think Cuba is such a fine and dandy place where would you prefer to live here or there. Me I choose the good ol' US of A but thats just me. North Korea is communist you can call a skunk a rose but that don't make it smell any better. Is China left or right wing? Was the USSR left or right wing? Was Romania left or right wing? I don't really know. I know they were or still are communist regimes. I know I wouldn't want to be there. If Cuba is your ideal of the ideal "leftist" I will choose the right everytime.
august spies
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kurch china and russia are both very right wing, the old ussr had some leftist rhetoric but absolultley no action to follow up. Just like this country has rhetoric about foriegn policy based on democracy, but its the opposite.
Is cuba an ideal leftist country? no. is it left leaning, yes. does that make it better than most countries in the region? absolutley.
when talking about global capitalism, you cant just focus on the usa. the argument about going to live in cuba instead of hear doesnt hold wait with me.
american based capitalism goes far beyond the boundries of the usa. does the us have a good standard of living compared to most of the world? yes (i think its like 10th) (24th in infant mortality thought boo)
does the rest of the world have to live in exterme poverty and violence for us to have this living standard? no.. and thats the main poing i am making.
The point of capitalism is to make as much money as possible regards of anything else, its quite machiavellian, and very immoral. Its take as much as you can get. Adam smith even stated you would need 1000 poor people for every rich person.
as i mentioned before the three major tools of capitalism are the military, international banking, and international corporate institutions, as three are usually quite connected.
the main international banking institutions are the IMF and World bank, which are mostly controlled by the US. every day 100million dollars leaves the impoverished world and goes into the coffers of these institutions in the form of "debt payment"
In many cases you have poor countries spending 5 or 6 times their health budget on debt repayment alone. IMF specialists impose what they call structural adjustment to other countries. what this entials is them slicing social spending in order to transfer money from their people, to the foriegn banks. this leaves countries in whats come to be known as the debt trap. and this is why when the IMF come to town people are pissed. their job is to get as much money out of anyone from anywhere. their motive is profit and they dont hide it.
Now for the military. capitalism wouldnt be anywhere and couldnt exist if it werent for authoritarian military governments. one of the first person to tell the imf to go screw themselves was Sukarno of Indonesia, he saw their true motives, and their connection to forieng companies. he knew that they were only out to exploit his country and he didnt want to get caught in a debt trap. but the us is very powerful and very influential. the CIA began to infiltrate the military and stir ferment for a coup, than in began bribing officers, it launched a smear campaign against sukarno (he was not a communist, in fact he was one of the founders of the non aligned movement) finaly in 1965 they got a general to lead a coup against Sukarno, his name was suharto. Suharto went on a massive killing spree immediatley after he sized power in what the cia described as one of the biggest mass murders in the 20th century, up to a million were slaughtered. well capialism created one of the worst dictators the world has seen. however corporations were jumping for joy. (story was the same in the congo, in the phillipines, in iran, guatamala, chile etc..)
now that the us had authoritarian military dictators completely at their will, corporations were free to go in and do what they wanted, and they did. that is why half of indonesia is a graveyard and the other half is a sweatshop.
US companies played major roles in propping up and supporting authoritarian regimes. and if you look at the us government, the military, corporations, and government officials are tied in very closey.
In latin america in the 70s and 80s alone they would leave over a million corpses in their wake.
In the same place in the 30s the us directly invaded all the time to maintain their economic influences, but inequality would get to be so bad, that the people would contantly revolt.
capitalism by nature is imperialist. millions of lives are lost globaly to capitalist terror, the UN even estimates that 2million die every year do to IMF policies of structural adjustment, and the corporations are the driving for for it all. its all done for money, with no concern for human life.
The greed has reached astonishing levels, for example the last post about the cheap aids drugs: if it wasnt for capitalism, the countries wouldnt even has to ask for permission to make themselves affordable AIDS drugs. but they have to ask the US if they can, and the us says, if you make your own affordable drugs, we will sue you with the WTO. this is insane.
capitalism in inherently anti democratic. how can you let a few rich corporate execs that make up the WTO make life or death decisions for millions of people with AIDS, you have no money you have no say.
Its the WTO that forces poor mexican farmers off their land, because they Mcdonalds wants to use the land to raise cattle for export, instead of the traditional corn for domestic consumption. the mexicans dont make that choice, the wto does.
Now for you patriots, there are the new free trade agreements like NAFTA. with NAFTA dozens of companies have all closed shop in the us and moved to cheaper labor areas, his has cost hundreds of thousands of americans their jobs (and actually caused a full scale armed insurrection in mexico)
wow im going off here, i better stop so people will actually read this, ill start again later
Is cuba an ideal leftist country? no. is it left leaning, yes. does that make it better than most countries in the region? absolutley.
when talking about global capitalism, you cant just focus on the usa. the argument about going to live in cuba instead of hear doesnt hold wait with me.
american based capitalism goes far beyond the boundries of the usa. does the us have a good standard of living compared to most of the world? yes (i think its like 10th) (24th in infant mortality thought boo)
does the rest of the world have to live in exterme poverty and violence for us to have this living standard? no.. and thats the main poing i am making.
The point of capitalism is to make as much money as possible regards of anything else, its quite machiavellian, and very immoral. Its take as much as you can get. Adam smith even stated you would need 1000 poor people for every rich person.
as i mentioned before the three major tools of capitalism are the military, international banking, and international corporate institutions, as three are usually quite connected.
the main international banking institutions are the IMF and World bank, which are mostly controlled by the US. every day 100million dollars leaves the impoverished world and goes into the coffers of these institutions in the form of "debt payment"
In many cases you have poor countries spending 5 or 6 times their health budget on debt repayment alone. IMF specialists impose what they call structural adjustment to other countries. what this entials is them slicing social spending in order to transfer money from their people, to the foriegn banks. this leaves countries in whats come to be known as the debt trap. and this is why when the IMF come to town people are pissed. their job is to get as much money out of anyone from anywhere. their motive is profit and they dont hide it.
Now for the military. capitalism wouldnt be anywhere and couldnt exist if it werent for authoritarian military governments. one of the first person to tell the imf to go screw themselves was Sukarno of Indonesia, he saw their true motives, and their connection to forieng companies. he knew that they were only out to exploit his country and he didnt want to get caught in a debt trap. but the us is very powerful and very influential. the CIA began to infiltrate the military and stir ferment for a coup, than in began bribing officers, it launched a smear campaign against sukarno (he was not a communist, in fact he was one of the founders of the non aligned movement) finaly in 1965 they got a general to lead a coup against Sukarno, his name was suharto. Suharto went on a massive killing spree immediatley after he sized power in what the cia described as one of the biggest mass murders in the 20th century, up to a million were slaughtered. well capialism created one of the worst dictators the world has seen. however corporations were jumping for joy. (story was the same in the congo, in the phillipines, in iran, guatamala, chile etc..)
now that the us had authoritarian military dictators completely at their will, corporations were free to go in and do what they wanted, and they did. that is why half of indonesia is a graveyard and the other half is a sweatshop.
US companies played major roles in propping up and supporting authoritarian regimes. and if you look at the us government, the military, corporations, and government officials are tied in very closey.
In latin america in the 70s and 80s alone they would leave over a million corpses in their wake.
In the same place in the 30s the us directly invaded all the time to maintain their economic influences, but inequality would get to be so bad, that the people would contantly revolt.
capitalism by nature is imperialist. millions of lives are lost globaly to capitalist terror, the UN even estimates that 2million die every year do to IMF policies of structural adjustment, and the corporations are the driving for for it all. its all done for money, with no concern for human life.
The greed has reached astonishing levels, for example the last post about the cheap aids drugs: if it wasnt for capitalism, the countries wouldnt even has to ask for permission to make themselves affordable AIDS drugs. but they have to ask the US if they can, and the us says, if you make your own affordable drugs, we will sue you with the WTO. this is insane.
capitalism in inherently anti democratic. how can you let a few rich corporate execs that make up the WTO make life or death decisions for millions of people with AIDS, you have no money you have no say.
Its the WTO that forces poor mexican farmers off their land, because they Mcdonalds wants to use the land to raise cattle for export, instead of the traditional corn for domestic consumption. the mexicans dont make that choice, the wto does.
Now for you patriots, there are the new free trade agreements like NAFTA. with NAFTA dozens of companies have all closed shop in the us and moved to cheaper labor areas, his has cost hundreds of thousands of americans their jobs (and actually caused a full scale armed insurrection in mexico)
wow im going off here, i better stop so people will actually read this, ill start again later
kurchatovium
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Well I wouldn't goto Cuba if you paid me and I have meant some Cubans who have left Cuba who agree with me. Lets see people leaving Cuba to come here a whole lot. People leaving the US to goto Cuba not any that I know of. So where you prefer living may or may not hold merit with you but is that just an excuse not to answer the question. The purpose of the question was to gauge which place you would actually prefer to be for if the Cuban system is better would you not rather be there? If the US has such a bad system why would you want to be here assuming you are here in the first place? I would add please don't take offense at the question its just curosity on my part why there are people who seem to despise everything about the US yet still seem to want to live here.
China and USSR are right wing. I feel communism is extreme left wing because the goverment controls everything and tries to distibute it evenly to the people. That does not sound very right wing to me. I suppose Fascism is extreme right wing. Ultimately this is just semantics the point is they are communist and communism just doesn't work very well. Like I said you can call a skunk a rose but it still smells. So I wonder is North Korea right wing? How about Iraq? Iran? I know those goverments are not capitalist and they are not doing so great. The point of this thread was about Capitalism not right or left wing anyway. Although I don't really know how you are defining the terms "left" and "right".
There is a problem with the idea that companies all flocked to Mexico for cheap labor because of NAFTA. The problem is just that. For many products the labor was cheap but the quality of the products produced was poor. The ol "You get what you pay for." line sort of applies here. Many companies don't move to cheap places just for that reason. If the quality of labor did not matter every company would be moving overseas.
China and USSR are right wing. I feel communism is extreme left wing because the goverment controls everything and tries to distibute it evenly to the people. That does not sound very right wing to me. I suppose Fascism is extreme right wing. Ultimately this is just semantics the point is they are communist and communism just doesn't work very well. Like I said you can call a skunk a rose but it still smells. So I wonder is North Korea right wing? How about Iraq? Iran? I know those goverments are not capitalist and they are not doing so great. The point of this thread was about Capitalism not right or left wing anyway. Although I don't really know how you are defining the terms "left" and "right".
There is a problem with the idea that companies all flocked to Mexico for cheap labor because of NAFTA. The problem is just that. For many products the labor was cheap but the quality of the products produced was poor. The ol "You get what you pay for." line sort of applies here. Many companies don't move to cheap places just for that reason. If the quality of labor did not matter every company would be moving overseas.
Last edited:
kurchatovium
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In case anyone is still really gungho about Cuba you might want to read this article:
http://www.americansforcuba.org/Articles/WalkinHavana.htm
http://www.americansforcuba.org/Articles/WalkinHavana.htm
august spies
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kurch in 1942, would i rather live in the ukraine or germany? its the same question, well id rather live in germany, but its the same policy. just because its different in two different places dont let it fool you. its the same government pulling the strings.important point here: there is absolutley no connection between any of americas internal policies and its external behavior) yes there are many flaws with internal america capitalism, but the real suffering is done at the hands of external american capitalism, and this is what im criticizing.
a more relavent question would be, where would you want to live in that region.
as i stated above since us imperialism first started in latin america millions of people have been slaughtered all becauase of greed. some of the most totalitiarian regimes ever have been in place. that is why those free cuba people all have a horrid double standard.
Cuba was able to aviod the slaughter because they kicked the dictator out in 59(56)? compared to most countries of that region cuba has one of the highest living standards and levels of freedom. el salvador murdered 60k people, guatamala 200,000 were slaughtered, nicaragua 20k and a terrorist war, hondurous, colombia, panama, haiti, all these nations were and are exteremely influenced by the US infact basically controlled by the us, and they are some of the poorest and most freedom hating on earth. They make cuba look like a beacon of freedom. that is the double standard, which those people have. Even some former reaganites admit, that US policiy is latin america, where it was most, democracy and freedom was least.
also another point i should bring up, i dont not support castros regime like the US goverenment supports and supported these totalitarian uber capitalist regimes. I think cuba has done some wonders for its people in terms of healthcare and living standard from the batista dictatorship, but its still not a free country, and needs lots of reform.
On right and left:
Yes fascism is the extereme right wing, its capitalist, it has foundations in racism(but not always) and its freedom hating. not all fascists are nazis, nazism is a type of fascism. however fascists tend to work together ie franco and hitler, pinochet and the argentine junta. etc.. (and there is an actual connection between nazi death camps and latin american death squad regimes)
The US government is exteremely right wing, are its internal policies exterme right? not always, but its external policies certainly are which is where they should be judged because it shows their true colors.
Communism of course is leftist, however even china itselft admits its not really communist, there isnt one worker or peasent in its entire government and many of them are openly capitalist. the ussr was stalinist, its rhetoric was leftist of course, but you cant judge people by rhetoric, you judge them by actions. this is why i say ussr and china are not leftist. if i was judging us foriegn policy by rhetoric, than i would say its wonderful, but you cant do that.
Democracy has never been a rightist ideology, it has always been a leftist one, same with human rights, and free speech. most of the millions killed under the rightist dictatorships over the decades and still being killed today were in one way or another afiliated with democractic movements, human rights, or civil liberties. and of course the main targets anti capitalists.
Communism is not the only leftist ideology, in fact i thinks its inherintly flawed. If anyone that read the manifesto, and then listens to china say its communist, and agrees, it must be flawed. same with russia. it creates a buerocratic elite, in which the state takes over from the other elite.
however cetainly capitalism is flawed. all i am saying is there is no need to kill millions of people and lock them in horrid poverty. but thats capitalism, and thats why it has to end.
a more relavent question would be, where would you want to live in that region.
as i stated above since us imperialism first started in latin america millions of people have been slaughtered all becauase of greed. some of the most totalitiarian regimes ever have been in place. that is why those free cuba people all have a horrid double standard.
Cuba was able to aviod the slaughter because they kicked the dictator out in 59(56)? compared to most countries of that region cuba has one of the highest living standards and levels of freedom. el salvador murdered 60k people, guatamala 200,000 were slaughtered, nicaragua 20k and a terrorist war, hondurous, colombia, panama, haiti, all these nations were and are exteremely influenced by the US infact basically controlled by the us, and they are some of the poorest and most freedom hating on earth. They make cuba look like a beacon of freedom. that is the double standard, which those people have. Even some former reaganites admit, that US policiy is latin america, where it was most, democracy and freedom was least.
also another point i should bring up, i dont not support castros regime like the US goverenment supports and supported these totalitarian uber capitalist regimes. I think cuba has done some wonders for its people in terms of healthcare and living standard from the batista dictatorship, but its still not a free country, and needs lots of reform.
On right and left:
Yes fascism is the extereme right wing, its capitalist, it has foundations in racism(but not always) and its freedom hating. not all fascists are nazis, nazism is a type of fascism. however fascists tend to work together ie franco and hitler, pinochet and the argentine junta. etc.. (and there is an actual connection between nazi death camps and latin american death squad regimes)
The US government is exteremely right wing, are its internal policies exterme right? not always, but its external policies certainly are which is where they should be judged because it shows their true colors.
Communism of course is leftist, however even china itselft admits its not really communist, there isnt one worker or peasent in its entire government and many of them are openly capitalist. the ussr was stalinist, its rhetoric was leftist of course, but you cant judge people by rhetoric, you judge them by actions. this is why i say ussr and china are not leftist. if i was judging us foriegn policy by rhetoric, than i would say its wonderful, but you cant do that.
Democracy has never been a rightist ideology, it has always been a leftist one, same with human rights, and free speech. most of the millions killed under the rightist dictatorships over the decades and still being killed today were in one way or another afiliated with democractic movements, human rights, or civil liberties. and of course the main targets anti capitalists.
Communism is not the only leftist ideology, in fact i thinks its inherintly flawed. If anyone that read the manifesto, and then listens to china say its communist, and agrees, it must be flawed. same with russia. it creates a buerocratic elite, in which the state takes over from the other elite.
however cetainly capitalism is flawed. all i am saying is there is no need to kill millions of people and lock them in horrid poverty. but thats capitalism, and thats why it has to end.
kurchatovium
Wielder of 100 Feathers
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What would you replace capitalism with? Communism no that doesn't work. Dictatorships don't work? Nazism and Fascism are right out? Socialism well that is just communism lite? The only system that works really well and granted its not perfect is capitalism in my humble opinion.
An interesting point which I feel is that are not companies so big now that they are really international? Are not european based companies like Ciba-Geigy practicing capitalism on a big scale as well? It would seem europe and most economically succesful countries practice capitalism in some form or another.
Castro is an evil bastard. Look at the reference I gave before. Cuba is wallowing in poverty and squalor. They repress human rights on an unimaginable scale. There health care system sucks from what I have read. They lock up people who are HIV positive in prison camps (60 minutes piece). I don't think I want this kind of health care. All indications are his way of doing things unless you are among the elite is basically bad. The only thing I'm not certain is should we restore free trade to Cuba. I hate to support this slime bucket but isolationism has not done much to oust him. I would be curious to know since you didn't like NAFTA if you support free trade with Cuba.
I agree with you that China has adopted some capitalistic methods and still has tried to pass it off as communism. But look at it this way while communist countries were falling left and right. China was the only one to still prosper economically. Now I don't like China for they supress human rights quite a bit, but the reason they are still doing well out of all the communist contries (those that are left anyway) is because of "capitalistic" economic policies.
Democracy I have never considered to be left or right wing. Its actually somewhere in between because it allows for both trains of thought to exist. Even though we have A "representative democracy" and not a true democarcy I would say the same thing both trains of thought are represented about equally. Just my opinion though.
I would say almost any system we come up with is going to be flawed. We are after all only human and therefore not perfect.
An interesting point which I feel is that are not companies so big now that they are really international? Are not european based companies like Ciba-Geigy practicing capitalism on a big scale as well? It would seem europe and most economically succesful countries practice capitalism in some form or another.
Castro is an evil bastard. Look at the reference I gave before. Cuba is wallowing in poverty and squalor. They repress human rights on an unimaginable scale. There health care system sucks from what I have read. They lock up people who are HIV positive in prison camps (60 minutes piece). I don't think I want this kind of health care. All indications are his way of doing things unless you are among the elite is basically bad. The only thing I'm not certain is should we restore free trade to Cuba. I hate to support this slime bucket but isolationism has not done much to oust him. I would be curious to know since you didn't like NAFTA if you support free trade with Cuba.
I agree with you that China has adopted some capitalistic methods and still has tried to pass it off as communism. But look at it this way while communist countries were falling left and right. China was the only one to still prosper economically. Now I don't like China for they supress human rights quite a bit, but the reason they are still doing well out of all the communist contries (those that are left anyway) is because of "capitalistic" economic policies.
Democracy I have never considered to be left or right wing. Its actually somewhere in between because it allows for both trains of thought to exist. Even though we have A "representative democracy" and not a true democarcy I would say the same thing both trains of thought are represented about equally. Just my opinion though.
I would say almost any system we come up with is going to be flawed. We are after all only human and therefore not perfect.
ShiningIce
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No hes not. Batista, now there was a monster, unless u were in the mafia of course.
kurchatovium
Wielder of 100 Feathers
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Others words not my own about the "sweet guy" you call Castro.
"Why are dictators of the left not scorned in the same way as those of the right? Was General Pinochet in his 17 years in power, less cruel or less bloody than Fidel Castro has been in his four decades ruling Cuba?
-Mario Vargas Llosa, Nobel laureate novelist, The New York Times, November 1, 1999
"...we also think of you and we believe that your longing for a free Cuba will also be fulfilled one day. It is really you - and not your jailers - who realize Marti's ideals in practice. It is you - and not them - who represent the best revolutionary traditions of your country..."
- Lech Walesa and Elena Bonner, Open letter to Cuban dissidents, The Washington Post, November 14 and Le Monde, November 16, 1999
"We thus know that by voicing open criticism of
undemocratic conditions in Cuba, we encourage all the
brave Cubans who endure persecution and years of prison
for their loyalty to the ideals of freedom and human dignity."
-Vaclav Havel, Nobel laureate and President of the Czech Republic, in an article on the similarities between the Cuba present and Czech past
"The only leader in Latin America who always wears a
military uniform, and who steadfastly and on principle
refuses elections, in Fidel Casto. Cuba citizens are forbidden
by law to use hotels reserved for the rich and may not even
enter many stores and pharmacies which trade only in
dollars. After 40 years, there are few senior black faces in
the supposed 'leadership'. Many doctors have been
trained, but they are paid less than the hotel doormen or
policemen in the segregated tourist districts. The regime
publishes a daily newspaper which all the literati's can
ion of it given by the late Argentinean editor and dissident Jacobo
Timerman, who described his morning encounter with that
same pape as "a degradation of the act of reading.
- Cristopher Hitchens in his article "Havana Can Wait", Vanity Fair, March 2000
"A walk in Havana"
HAVANA -- ''This is the real Havana,'' Miguel said as we turned from Avenida Simon Bolivar to a gritty side street cratered with potholes. ''Here you see how Cubans live. Tourists don't come to this street.''
Well, they might if they were simply walking around, as I had been when Miguel came up to me a half-hour earlier. It was my first afternoon in Havana and I was taking advantage of some unexpected free time to explore the city. I had gotten no more than half a block from my hotel when a muscular black man in a bright orange sweater fell in beside me and asked, ''Hello, my friend, where are you from?''
This, I would learn in the course of a week spent in Havana, is absolutely normal. Every time I stepped outside, a young Cuban would approach me, sometimes with a black-market offer - ''Amigo, you want cigars?'' - but often just to talk.
Miguel's English was good and he told me that he would love to work as a guide or translator for tourists. Not only because such a job would be appropriate to his skills - he is a university graduate and speaks three languages - but because it would give him a way to earn US dollars. In Castro's Cuba, living
without dollars means living in poverty. But Miguel has none of the connections he would need to get into the tourism industry, and so he works instead as a security guard at a cigar factory. It is a mindless job that pays 225 pesos per month - about $9, a typical Cuban salary.
Miguel opened a door. ''Here is where we buy food with pesos,'' he said. Inside is a dingy, windowless room. There are no aisles or shelves, only a single counter behind which are a couple sacks of rice, a couple more of beans, some oil, and what look like packets of a juice mix. Above the counter, a chalkboard
lists the rationed staples that Cubans are supposed to be able to buy, with prices next to those that are available. Milk isn't available. Neither is laundry soap. Or toothpaste. Or salt. Or matches. Not even on the ration list are fruit, green vegetables, cheese, and meat.
All of these can be had in Havana - in the state-owned stores that cater to customers with dollars. Or in the tourist hotels that attract the hard currency the regime craves. While Miguel's family hasn't eaten eggs for months, the dining room in my hotel features a chef-staffed omelette station with a wide
array of fillings. Miguel has never seen it, of course:
Cubans may not go beyond the lobbies of tourist hotels, a rule enforced by the security police - who are everywhere.
But there are things here that even dollars can't buy.
The hotel gift shop offers a selection of government-approved reading material -books with titles like ''The Salvador Allende Reader'' and ''The Fertile Prison: Fidel Castro in Batista's Jails'' - but unlike every other hotel I have ever been in, it carried no English-language newspapers or magazines. I asked the
concierge if there was any place I could buy some. ''Not in Cuba,'' he replied.
Like all communist governments, the Castro dictatorship recognizes just one view of the world: its own. It is the only view published in Cuban newspapers or aired on Cuban radio. The papers and radio stations, of course, are all owned by the government. Cubans hungry for opinions other than Castro's have to tune in to Radio Marti - or approach foreigners in the street.
Talk to Cuban officials, and they will rhapsodize about Cuba's ''socialist equality,'' in which everyone is treated alike and there are no egregious disparities in wealth. But move around Havana with your eyes open and you see the reality. For Communist Party big shots there are beautiful neighborhoods like Miramar, with its elegant mansions and gorgeous gardens.
For ordinary Cubans there are the crowded, crumbling apartments of Centro Habana, where families live in squalor it would be hard to find in an American slum.
Billboards all over Havana extol ''socialismo'' and ''revolucion'' and ''dignidad,'' but the truth is that 43 years after Castro's socialist revolution, Cuba's dignity is in tatters. Educated Cuban women, desperate for dollars - or to meet a foreign Prince Charming - become prostitutes. Educated Cuban men on bicycles haul tourists around in rickshaws. Havana swarms with
well-heeled foreigners, but to me, it was a city full of sadness and frustration.
On my last day, I visited 19-year-old Lazaro, who lives with his mother and three siblings in an oceanfront apartment. It is a single room, grimy and desperately in need of paint, furnished with a stained divan, a small metal table, and a battered old refrigerator. There were no lamps, no rugs, no beds, no oven. The family sleeps on a few mattresses in a dark, airless loft. Out of his mother's hearing, Lazaro asked if I could help her out. ''My little brother needs milk,'' he said, ''but my mother has no dollars.''
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is [email protected] .
This story ran on page A15 of the Boston Globe on 3/14/2002.
© Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.
"Why are dictators of the left not scorned in the same way as those of the right? Was General Pinochet in his 17 years in power, less cruel or less bloody than Fidel Castro has been in his four decades ruling Cuba?
-Mario Vargas Llosa, Nobel laureate novelist, The New York Times, November 1, 1999
"...we also think of you and we believe that your longing for a free Cuba will also be fulfilled one day. It is really you - and not your jailers - who realize Marti's ideals in practice. It is you - and not them - who represent the best revolutionary traditions of your country..."
- Lech Walesa and Elena Bonner, Open letter to Cuban dissidents, The Washington Post, November 14 and Le Monde, November 16, 1999
"We thus know that by voicing open criticism of
undemocratic conditions in Cuba, we encourage all the
brave Cubans who endure persecution and years of prison
for their loyalty to the ideals of freedom and human dignity."
-Vaclav Havel, Nobel laureate and President of the Czech Republic, in an article on the similarities between the Cuba present and Czech past
"The only leader in Latin America who always wears a
military uniform, and who steadfastly and on principle
refuses elections, in Fidel Casto. Cuba citizens are forbidden
by law to use hotels reserved for the rich and may not even
enter many stores and pharmacies which trade only in
dollars. After 40 years, there are few senior black faces in
the supposed 'leadership'. Many doctors have been
trained, but they are paid less than the hotel doormen or
policemen in the segregated tourist districts. The regime
publishes a daily newspaper which all the literati's can
ion of it given by the late Argentinean editor and dissident Jacobo
Timerman, who described his morning encounter with that
same pape as "a degradation of the act of reading.
- Cristopher Hitchens in his article "Havana Can Wait", Vanity Fair, March 2000
"A walk in Havana"
HAVANA -- ''This is the real Havana,'' Miguel said as we turned from Avenida Simon Bolivar to a gritty side street cratered with potholes. ''Here you see how Cubans live. Tourists don't come to this street.''
Well, they might if they were simply walking around, as I had been when Miguel came up to me a half-hour earlier. It was my first afternoon in Havana and I was taking advantage of some unexpected free time to explore the city. I had gotten no more than half a block from my hotel when a muscular black man in a bright orange sweater fell in beside me and asked, ''Hello, my friend, where are you from?''
This, I would learn in the course of a week spent in Havana, is absolutely normal. Every time I stepped outside, a young Cuban would approach me, sometimes with a black-market offer - ''Amigo, you want cigars?'' - but often just to talk.
Miguel's English was good and he told me that he would love to work as a guide or translator for tourists. Not only because such a job would be appropriate to his skills - he is a university graduate and speaks three languages - but because it would give him a way to earn US dollars. In Castro's Cuba, living
without dollars means living in poverty. But Miguel has none of the connections he would need to get into the tourism industry, and so he works instead as a security guard at a cigar factory. It is a mindless job that pays 225 pesos per month - about $9, a typical Cuban salary.
Miguel opened a door. ''Here is where we buy food with pesos,'' he said. Inside is a dingy, windowless room. There are no aisles or shelves, only a single counter behind which are a couple sacks of rice, a couple more of beans, some oil, and what look like packets of a juice mix. Above the counter, a chalkboard
lists the rationed staples that Cubans are supposed to be able to buy, with prices next to those that are available. Milk isn't available. Neither is laundry soap. Or toothpaste. Or salt. Or matches. Not even on the ration list are fruit, green vegetables, cheese, and meat.
All of these can be had in Havana - in the state-owned stores that cater to customers with dollars. Or in the tourist hotels that attract the hard currency the regime craves. While Miguel's family hasn't eaten eggs for months, the dining room in my hotel features a chef-staffed omelette station with a wide
array of fillings. Miguel has never seen it, of course:
Cubans may not go beyond the lobbies of tourist hotels, a rule enforced by the security police - who are everywhere.
But there are things here that even dollars can't buy.
The hotel gift shop offers a selection of government-approved reading material -books with titles like ''The Salvador Allende Reader'' and ''The Fertile Prison: Fidel Castro in Batista's Jails'' - but unlike every other hotel I have ever been in, it carried no English-language newspapers or magazines. I asked the
concierge if there was any place I could buy some. ''Not in Cuba,'' he replied.
Like all communist governments, the Castro dictatorship recognizes just one view of the world: its own. It is the only view published in Cuban newspapers or aired on Cuban radio. The papers and radio stations, of course, are all owned by the government. Cubans hungry for opinions other than Castro's have to tune in to Radio Marti - or approach foreigners in the street.
Talk to Cuban officials, and they will rhapsodize about Cuba's ''socialist equality,'' in which everyone is treated alike and there are no egregious disparities in wealth. But move around Havana with your eyes open and you see the reality. For Communist Party big shots there are beautiful neighborhoods like Miramar, with its elegant mansions and gorgeous gardens.
For ordinary Cubans there are the crowded, crumbling apartments of Centro Habana, where families live in squalor it would be hard to find in an American slum.
Billboards all over Havana extol ''socialismo'' and ''revolucion'' and ''dignidad,'' but the truth is that 43 years after Castro's socialist revolution, Cuba's dignity is in tatters. Educated Cuban women, desperate for dollars - or to meet a foreign Prince Charming - become prostitutes. Educated Cuban men on bicycles haul tourists around in rickshaws. Havana swarms with
well-heeled foreigners, but to me, it was a city full of sadness and frustration.
On my last day, I visited 19-year-old Lazaro, who lives with his mother and three siblings in an oceanfront apartment. It is a single room, grimy and desperately in need of paint, furnished with a stained divan, a small metal table, and a battered old refrigerator. There were no lamps, no rugs, no beds, no oven. The family sleeps on a few mattresses in a dark, airless loft. Out of his mother's hearing, Lazaro asked if I could help her out. ''My little brother needs milk,'' he said, ''but my mother has no dollars.''
Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is [email protected] .
This story ran on page A15 of the Boston Globe on 3/14/2002.
© Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.
ShiningIce
3rd Level Green Feather
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2002
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- 38
Never said he was sweet, These sources are only half the story now post some pro castro stuff and weigh them out.
kurchatovium
Wielder of 100 Feathers
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2001
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- Points
- 63
Well I guess there are people worse than him. I just know a Cuban friend who drives the bus I take to work and he is glad he was able to get him and his family out of Cuba. I guess that is one reason I don't much care for the guy.
