Dallas Mavericks Dirk Nowizki, NBA League MVP? Are you KIDDING me?

[jaba]

Dallas Mavericks Dirk Nowitzki...... 😱

Dirk got slapped in the mouth, and "faded away" in the 7th game loss of the NBA finals......IN DALLAS!!!!!!

Dallas (regular season record, 67-15) gets MUGGED like a DRUNK in an ALLEY by GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS (regular season record 42-40)!....Dallas is the "best record" team EVER to get "BOOTED OUT" in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs!!!

Nowitzki scores EIGHT points in the last chance Dallas had this year to win a playoff game and avoid embarrassing first round elimination.....


ok.. ...i'm ALL ears.. ..somebody....ANYBODY....explain and justify Nowitzki's pick as "NBA MVP"?....

 

[Tickle Fiend]

I was hoping that Nash got it again. To me, he is more valuable to the Suns than any person in the league is to their team. Nowitzki deserved it also. They voted for the MVP before the playoffs began. Had they did it after, I'm sure it would have affected the votes, even though it's not supposed to.

 

[jaba]

ok, i'm aware that there are a LOT of Kobe haters out there, but lets examine this ...... 😎

Kobe drags a third rate team with a full starting roster playing only 24 games together out of the 82 game season due to various injuries, into the Western Conference playoffs....

it's unlikely that ANY laker starter, with the exceptions of Kobe and maybe injury prone Lamar Odom, would start on any other NBA team roster.....

No other laker had a rats ass of a chance to make the NBA All Star team, and Kobe was named MVP of the All Star game this season.....

Kobe scored at least 50 points 10 times this season, at least 60 points four times this season, matching only Michael Jordan, and "out of this world" Wilt Chamberlain in the history of the NBA......

Kobe is selected to the "NBA First team All Defensive" unit for the 2006-2007 season......


so let's see.....Steve Nash (Suns), Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas), Chaucy Billups (Pistons), Kobe Bryant (Lakers)......

take all four of those players away from their team for a season, and which team has the LEAST chance of making the playoffs without their star player?.... 😎

as they say in the "Hood"....."if you gonna "hate", don't hate the "player", hate the "game"........

 

[CitY of MicA]

no surprise, really- he deserved it

The MVP is based on the candidates' performance during the regular season, and, as TF point out, is voted on before the playoffs begin. Nowitzki shot over 50% from the floor, over 40% from three point land, and over 90% from the foul line. The Mavs went 67-15; after they lost their first four games, they only lost another 11. They had several impressive winning streaks. It was certainly one of the greatest regular seasons in recent history. Nowitzki has a great work ethic and seems to up his game every year- he was in the running for the award in years past and certainly could have legitimately won last year (if memory serves, the race was really between him and Nash). He's been a guy who has been near the tops in the league in points, rebounds, and shooting percentage for a while now. His passing and defense have improved. Why shouldn't he win the award?

 

[Goodieluver]

mvp doesnt mean anything for how you perform in the playoffs.

And sadly in all sports, the mvp generally goes to playoff teams and not to the most deserving player on a team

If you dont think dirk deserved it, explain why, not discussing any of the playoff issues

I mean hell, does that mean shaq and wade are crappy players cuz they got swept by the bulls?

 

[jaba]

mvp doesnt mean anything for how you perform in the playoffs.

And sadly in all sports, the mvp generally goes to playoff teams and not to the most deserving player on a team

If you dont think dirk deserved it, explain why, not discussing any of the playoff issues

I mean hell, does that mean shaq and wade are crappy players cuz they got swept by the bulls?

Hmmmm Goodie....well perhaps my beef is with the judging criteria for "NBA MVP"....

I can't tell you why I believe Dirk doesn't deserve the award without factoring in his playoff performance, but lets take the lack of judging "playoff performance" and only judging "regular season" performance for league MVP to a ridiculous, but theoretically possible scenario......

Lets say every season, for the rest of his carreer, "Dallas Dirk" leads the NBA in every statistical category, and the Mavericks have a 82-0 regular season record every season Dirk plays....

But when the playoffs roll around, every year, Dirk gets "shut down", and scores 3 points, 5 points, 2 points , and 0 points, while playing full games, in each of four playoff games, leading to the Mavericks getting " first round swept" each season.....granted highly unlikely scenario, but theoretically possible, so just hear out my example....

Is that the type of player you envision in your mind when you think "NBA MVP"? A 75 or 80 win regular season is a nice accomplishment, but what fan, team or player would be satisfied with that "season ending" accomplishment by your NBA MVP? Presumably, the ultimate goal of the team is to win an NBA title, and if your star player "dissapears" every year during the playoffs, resulting in you losing in the playoffs each year, you call that an " NBA MVP" calibre performer?

Yeah, my beef is with the judging criteria....I would pick a player with a slightly lesser regular stat performance than Dirk, but who plays his ass off and has his best performances when it REALLY matters, in the playoffs and NBA finals, if the team makes it that far.....that's the true "NBA MVP" in my opinion....

I mean, come on Goodie.....EIGHT POINTS by Dirk, the Star of your team, when your team is fighting for its playoff life in a season ending game? That's your MVP? You or I could play in that game, drive multiple times to the basket, getting smashed in the mouth and drawing fouls, and get EIGHT lousy points ourselves shooting free throws......and for a heck of a lot less money......

If a team makes it to the playoffs with an MVP candidate, I would wait until the NBA finals are done, and then make my pick.....

Heck, I would even pick a stellar player from a team that DID NOT make the playoffs, before I would pick Dirk, with his choke job in that vital playoff game this season.....and in that seventh game in Dallas last season.....

Again, my criteria would be which candidate, with appropriate stastics, is most valuable to his team? Which team would fare the worse without its MVP candidate?

 

[Soda83pop]

The MVP is based on the candidates' performance during the regular season, and, as TF point out, is voted on before the playoffs begin. Nowitzki shot over 50% from the floor, over 40% from three point land, and over 90% from the foul line. The Mavs went 67-15; after they lost their first four games, they only lost another 11. They had several impressive winning streaks. It was certainly one of the greatest regular seasons in recent history. Nowitzki has a great work ethic and seems to up his game every year- he was in the running for the award in years past and certainly could have legitimately won last year (if memory serves, the race was really between him and Nash). He's been a guy who has been near the tops in the league in points, rebounds, and shooting percentage for a while now. His passing and defense have improved. Why shouldn't he win the award?

Yea...what he said. Post season doesnt count. For that matter, none of the MVP awards take the post season into account...the NFL and MLB do it the same way.

Now if you want to argue about which player is the most valuable to his team, I think Lebron is more valuable than any of the guys previously mentioned, this season or last. But his stats dont hold up this year (they did last year, but that is an argument for last year and that season is way behind us to open that up for discussion).

 

[makemlaugh2003]

Let's make this argument as simple as humanly possible:

First off, what Dirk Nowitizki did (or, to be more accurate, DIDN'T do) in the playoffs has NO BEARING on a REGULAR SEASON award. The kind of stats he put up, combined with the kind of impact he had on his team AND the kind of impact the type of player of his size has on the game itself ALL contributed, and very irrefutably, to him winning his first MVP award. Having said that, however, I myself would have chosen someone else over him, but more on that later.

As far as some of the other candidates, the reasons they didn't receive the award are simple enough to follow. Steve Nash simply COULDN'T win it again because of the semantics involved. Honestly, he only won last year because he had an even better season than he had the year before, when he also won it. You can't justify continuing to give someone the MVP award on the argument that his numbers improved from his MVP season of x-amount of years prior and, in the process, ignore or disregard the contributions of other players that may have not yet won the award themselves. And anyhow, the Suns are far too well-rounded to be the type of team that would simply fall apart without Nash, his impact on the team nonwithstanding. And that also contributes to the determination of a league MVP.

Kobe Bryant? Please. Of COURSE the Lakers would only win about thirty games without him, even with Guru Phil at the reins, but let's not crown him MVP just because the Lakers have precious little talent around him. Lamar Odom is perhaps the league's biggest underachiever, Luke Walton is little more than a three-point bomber at the moment (though he does have potential to be a far more well-developed player), and their point guards are jokes. Kobe does what he does because he HAS to or the Lakers would have no chance to win consistently. That does not an MVP make, either.

Now, let's get to the man that SHOULD have won the award: LeBron James. This man, only SECOND team All-NBA? THAT'S a joke. And it's not like the Cavs are a crap roster without him: Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden and Zydrunas Ilgauskas are all very capable players, and Big Z has even been an All-Star before (though the lack of many decent pivotmen in the Eastern Conference is part of the reason why, admittedly). But LeBron MAKES THESE PLAYERS BETTER, and ultimately THAT'S what a TRUE MVP does. Not just make cool passes so they can score easy dunks (though that certainly helps), not just "call out" and yell at teammates who aren't pulling their weight (though that helps too)...an MVP is not just a stat-machine: he changes the game and the way opponents play against his team, he leads by example, and he MAKES HIS TEAMMATES BETTER. LeBron James does that better than any player in the league, and aside from arguably being the league's most talented player, he has grown leaps and bounds as a leader and therefore deserves the award even more than Nowitzki does, Dirk's impact on the game and his team nonwithstanding. There ya go. See? It's not so tough when ya break it right down...oh, and don't even MENTION King James' clutch free-throws missed at ends of games as arguments against this, for it seems to me that Wilt the Stilt and Shaq weren't, and aren't, exactly automatic at the line either. So again, there ya go. Dirk was a very good choice, but not the best one.

 

[unclebill]

Forget basketball and become a soccer fan, Jaba my friend. You will be happier.

 

[jaba]

Forget basketball and become a soccer fan, Jaba my friend. You will be happier.

Ha ha.....perhaps you are right, unclebill.....

If they can give an NBA MVP award to a guy who scored eight lousy points for his team in a first round elimination playoff game........ 😡

I need something to kick right now...

 

[Goodieluver]

Hmmmm Goodie....well perhaps my beef is with the judging criteria for "NBA MVP"....

I can't tell you why I believe Dirk doesn't deserve the award without factoring in his playoff performance, but lets take the lack of judging "playoff performance" and only judging "regular season" performance for league MVP to a ridiculous, but theoretically possible scenario......

Lets say every season, for the rest of his carreer, "Dallas Dirk" leads the NBA in every statistical category, and the Mavericks have a 82-0 regular season record every season Dirk plays....

But when the playoffs roll around, every year, Dirk gets "shut down", and scores 3 points, 5 points, 2 points , and 0 points, while playing full games, in each of four playoff games, leading to the Mavericks getting " first round swept" each season.....granted highly unlikely scenario, but theoretically possible, so just hear out my example....

Is that the type of player you envision in your mind when you think "NBA MVP"? A 75 or 80 win regular season is a nice accomplishment, but what fan, team or player would be satisfied with that "season ending" accomplishment by your NBA MVP? Presumably, the ultimate goal of the team is to win an NBA title, and if your star player "dissapears" every year during the playoffs, resulting in you losing in the playoffs each year, you call that an " NBA MVP" calibre performer?

Yeah, my beef is with the judging criteria....I would pick a player with a slightly lesser regular stat performance than Dirk, but who plays his ass off and has his best performances when it REALLY matters, in the playoffs and NBA finals, if the team makes it that far.....that's the true "NBA MVP" in my opinion....

I mean, come on Goodie.....EIGHT POINTS by Dirk, the Star of your team, when your team is fighting for its playoff life in a season ending game? That's your MVP? You or I could play in that game, drive multiple times to the basket, getting smashed in the mouth and drawing fouls, and get EIGHT lousy points ourselves shooting free throws......and for a heck of a lot less money......

If a team makes it to the playoffs with an MVP candidate, I would wait until the NBA finals are done, and then make my pick.....

Heck, I would even pick a stellar player from a team that DID NOT make the playoffs, before I would pick Dirk, with his choke job in that vital playoff game this season.....and in that seventh game in Dallas last season.....

Again, my criteria would be which candidate, with appropriate stastics, is most valuable to his team? Which team would fare the worse without its MVP candidate?

So did ernie banks, andre dawson not deserve the mvp despite never winning or getting to a world series? Or hell, manning didnt win a ring till this season but that doesnt mean that he wasnt arguably the best QB for the past 5 years

 

[jaba]

So did ernie banks, andre dawson not deserve the mvp despite never winning or getting to a world series? Or hell, manning didnt win a ring till this season but that doesnt mean that he wasnt arguably the best QB for the past 5 years

That's my point, Goodie.....

Those spectacular players you cited COULD be counted on to play at their superior levels during critical times, when their team needed them most....not dissapear like "Casper the friendly ghost" when the game was on the line or in a critical stage....

Those athletes exemplefied the true essence of the term "MVP".....when their team needed them, regular season or post season playoffs, they displayed, and proved, "MOST VALUABLE" to their team, PARTICULARLY during stressful, critical game situations.....

And the "unwritten" policy that generally the candidates on the more successful teams have the better chance at winning the MVP award excludes a number of qualified candidates who are TRULY most valuable to the success of the team.....

No, you don't have to play in an NBA finals, or World Series or Superbowl to garner MVP status, but it would be nice to be reasonably assured that the MVP candidate won't fold like a cheap lawn chair when put in those pressure situations....and Dirk can't give his fans that assurance....its starting to look like its more likely that he will choke in those pressure situations.....

I mean 8 lousy points in an entire game with playoff eliminating implications for your team......give me a break......Michael Jordan and Joe Montana THRIVED and LIVED for those scenarios.......those were TRUE "MVPs" 😡

 

[CitY of MicA]

really?

No, you don't have to play in an NBA finals, or World Series or Superbowl to garner MVP status, but it would be nice to be reasonably assured that the MVP candidate won't fold like a cheap lawn chair when put in those pressure situations....and Dirk can't give his fans that assurance....its starting to look like its more likely that he will choke in those pressure situations.....

I mean 8 lousy points in an entire game with playoff eliminating implications for your team......give me a break......Michael Jordan and Joe Montana THRIVED and LIVED for those scenarios.......those were TRUE "MVPs" 😡

Absolutely. Like in 1985 when the Giants beat the 49ers 17-3 in the playoffs. Great game for Montana. Threw at least one pick that resulted in a Giants score. And then in 1986, in another playoff game vs. the Giants, he threw an interception that was returned for a touchdown and was knocked out of the game in the second quarter. They lost that game 49-3. Close. In 1987, the 49ers were down 20-3 at halftime and Montana was benched. Clutch play. Steve Young replaced him and engineered a bit of comeback before they sucumbed, 36-24. 9 lousy points in three years. MVP indeed.

I don't imagine there's a professional athlete who appears in the postseason multiple times that doesn't have their ups and downs. Ted Williams only had one opportunity and it was best forgotten. I hardly think it fair to judge him on such a performance- he had an amazing career. Nowitzki has had some great playoff performances. But that really has nothing to do with an award based upon regular season performance.

 

[jaba]

Absolutely. Like in 1985 when the Giants beat the 49ers 17-3 in the playoffs. Great game for Montana. Threw at least one pick that resulted in a Giants score. And then in 1986, in another playoff game vs. the Giants, he threw an interception that was returned for a touchdown and was knocked out of the game in the second quarter. They lost that game 49-3. Close. In 1987, the 49ers were down 20-3 at halftime and Montana was benched. Clutch play. Steve Young replaced him and engineered a bit of comeback before they sucumbed, 36-24. 9 lousy points in three years. MVP indeed.

Um.....ok......

Joe Montana had 31 4th QUARTER COME FROM BEHIND WINS , including a 92 yard drive in the final seconds of Super Bowl XXIII....

Montana won the NFL passing title in 1987 and 1989, and he topped the NFC in passing five times in 1981,1984,1985,1987, and 1989.....

Montana's SIX 300 yard passing performances in the POST SEASON (where it REALLY matters, to most professional athletes with title aspirations) are an NFL record.....

Montana also owns the carreer PLAYOFF RECORD (again, that means PERFORMANCE when it REALLY counts for something, if your team helps you make it there) for attempts, completions, touchdowns and yards gained passing......(that's called "showing up" for the playoffs, if you're in the game ).......

Eleven times Montana led his team to the playoffs, captured NINE DIVISIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS , and VICTORIES in Super Bowls XVI,XIX,XXIII, and XXIV.....Montana's OUTSTANDING play in Super Bowls XVI,XIX, and XXIV earned him MVP honors in EACH game (again, there's those pesky "performance when it counts" words again..... )

Montana was named "ALL NFL" 3 times, voted to the Pro Bowl eight times (as many points as "NBA MVP Nowitzki" had in his last playoff game of the season ) which was the League record for a quarterback at the time.....

So while you and perhaps a few other sports trivia statisticians are prepared to let Joe Montana's 3 year playoff performance define his carreer, I think he has proven to most of the rest of us that he was a clutch performer both in the regular season, and more importantly, in the post season and Super Bowl, where the performances really matter to most athletes with aspirations that extend beyond acheiving exceptional REGULAR season statistics.....and I think most professional athletes do have higher aspirations and expectations for themselves.....and so do their fans.....

Ok, So Dirk is YOUR example of a professional athletic MVP performer.....he just doesn't fit my description, or perception, based on his performance under pressure, and when it counts.....but to each his own, I guess..until Nowitzki "shows up" and at least makes an "attempt" to help out his team in the games that matter most, he aint no "MVP" in my mind, even though he may "technically qualify" for the award........you can have Nowitzki as your MVP.....I think I'll stick with Montana, his 3 year playoff performances nonwithstanding.....

Dirk has been in the NBA nearly ten years now.......are we gonna have to wait another ten years before the "regular season NBA MVP" makes some noteworthy post season accomplishments?

 

[CitY of MicA]

So while you and perhaps a few other sports trivia statisticians are prepared to let Joe Montana's 3 year playoff performance define his carreer, I think he has proven to most of the rest of us that he was a clutch performer both in the regular season, and more importantly, in the post season and Super Bowl, where the performances really matter to most athletes with aspirations that extend beyond acheiving exceptional REGULAR season statistics.....and I think most professional athletes do have higher aspirations and expectations for themselves.....and so do their fans.....

Ok, So Dirk is YOUR example of a professional athletic MVP performer.....he just doesn't fit my description, or perception, based on his performance under pressure, and when it counts.....but to each his own, I guess..until Nowitzki "shows up" and at least makes an "attempt" to help out his team in the games that matter most, he aint no "MVP" in my mind, even though he may "technically qualify" for the award........you can have Nowitzki as your MVP.....I think I'll stick with Montana, his 3 year playoff performances nonwithstanding.....

With all due respect, I'm just following through on one of the examples you gave and you're busy putting words in my mouth. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about or even allude to defining Montana's career solely by his lackluster playoff performances. You brought him up as an example of someone who thrived in playoff situations- not me. I'm simply pointing out that, other than perhaps Bill Russell off the top of my head, everyone can have their goods days and bad days in the playoffs. Joe Montana had plenty of playoff failures- not just the three I mentioned. That's what happens when you go to the playoffs nearly every year. Obviously, he had some classic clutch performances in the playoffs. Montana, as it turns out, is a rather good example of someone who, as great as he was, had less than stellar performances in the postseason, too. If you wanted a guarantee that you could hand Montana the MVP for the regular season and he wouldn't 'fold like a lawn chair' in the post season as you put it, that's not something that anyone could give you. The only way you'd be guaranteed of such a result for a regular season award is if you give it to someone who is not going to the postseason- that way there's no chance that they'll underperform in the playoffs.

Dirk has been in the NBA nearly ten years now.......are we gonna have to wait another ten years before the "regular season NBA MVP" makes some noteworthy post season accomplishments?

I'm not sure that I understand your question. What does Dirk's having been in the NBA for almost 10 years have to do with anything? He's only winning the MVP now. He's already had some clutch performances in the playoffs. He also seems to improve his game every year. I'm sure that trend will continue.

 

[jaba]

With all due respect, I'm just following through on one of the examples you gave and you're busy putting words in my mouth. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about or even allude to defining Montana's career solely by his lackluster playoff performances. You brought him up as an example of someone who thrived in playoff situations- not me.

The problem is not the words I am "putting in your mouth".....the problem is the words that fail to come out of your mouth..... in your prior post, you cite the litany of Joe Montana's post season failures, without so much as a begrudging acknowedgement of Montana's spectacular post season successes, because any acknowledgement by you of Montana's four Superbowl rings and three Superbowl MVP honors boosts the argument that Montana is an example of the "essence" of a "true" "MVP", while Nowitzki's lack of post season performance, and here lately his abysmal post season efforts when the post season games are on the line, make Nowitzki a "tecnically qualified, "regular season" candidate for MVP (and winner by "default" in my opinion because as you, ( if it was not you, I apologize, I wouldn't want to be accused of "putting more words in your mouth" 😛 ) or some other member pointed out, it would have been awkward to give Steve Nash the MVP award for the third time, although he "tecnically" was also a worthy and qualified "regular season" MVP candidate this season, and could have been chosen again based on regular season MVP criteria.

I'm acknowledging that Nowitzki is a tecnically qualified "regular season" "MVP".....and you acknowledge that his "tecnical qualification" is enough for him to be called an "MVP".......I'm saying that while he may fit the tecnical qualification, Nowitzki's no where near what I think of when I think of a "true MVP".....an exceptional pro athlete who performs "exceptionally" well, when his team really needs his exceptional playing capabilities, both in the regular season, and the post season, if his team makes it to post season playoffs......and Joe Montana and Michael Jordan fit that mold, and Dirk Nowitzki, based on his lack of post season performance and success, does not fit that mold, in my opinion.....

I'm simply pointing out that, other than perhaps Bill Russell off the top of my head, everyone can have their goods days and bad days in the playoffs. Joe Montana had plenty of playoff failures- not just the three I mentioned. That's what happens when you go to the playoffs nearly every year.

Yeah, Montana laid some "post season eggs", but lets just say "most sports fans" don't "run" to those plays when summarizing Montana's play.....they usually make mention of his spectacular successes....heck, Michael Jordan missed more basketball shots than he made....is that what we think of when we think of him? Another "true" MVP".....in most peoples minds.....

Obviously, he had some classic clutch performances in the playoffs.

Apparently, that fact wasn't so "obvious" in your previous post regarding Montana.....a non "sports buff" reading your prior post about Montana's post season play would think it was as bad as Nowitzki's.........

Montana, as it turns out, is a rather good example of someone who, as great as he was, had less than stellar performances in the postseason, too. If you wanted a guarantee that you could hand Montana the MVP for the regular season and he wouldn't 'fold like a lawn chair' in the post season as you put it, that's not something that anyone could give you. The only way you'd be guaranteed of such a result for a regular season award is if you give it to someone who is not going to the postseason- that way there's no chance that they'll underperform in the playoffs.

That may be true, but based on the ten year span of post season play by Montana vs Nowitzki, I think I would bet the family paycheck on "Joe Cool"......for the "true", "non technical" MVP of his sport......

And I have no problem with giving the award to an athlete whose team does not make the post season, if the case can be made that he was most valuable to his team and a worthy candidate...

But if your team makes the playoffs, and you're the "supposed" MVP, then play like one.......especially in game 7 of the NBA finals on YOUR HOME COURT.......

I'm not sure that I understand your question. What does Dirk's having been in the NBA for almost 10 years have to do with anything? He's only winning the MVP now. He's already had some clutch performances in the playoffs. He also seems to improve his game every year. I'm sure that trend will continue.

Well, I'm nowhere near "sure", and prepared to say that, in Nowitzki's case.......actually based on his post season play in clutch, game ending situations, I'm almost prepared to say just the opposite....

And Nowitzki had at least FOUR chances to prove me wrong in this post season....Montana only has ONE chance in HIS post season......