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Debate: Why isn't racism wrong when it comes from minorites?

Ya'll back up a bit and re-read the title of this thread as originally posited by Dave2112.
The thread has degenerated into X-vs-X dialog which can only lead to antagonism.

How 'bout some answers to Dave's question ???
 
Check this one out...

I remember a few years back a white football player (CFL or NFL, not sure which) said the "N word" and was force to make an apology on TV. You don't think that Black, Latin or other ethnic groups don't call each other slurs on the field. Ya right. If you not going to tolerate it from one don't tolerate it from all. That is racism at it's best/worst. Oh and Brian, white folks are tired of hearing Hallie Berry crying about the lack of black people in lead rolls. Why doesn't she Wesley Snipes, and Densely Washington get together and start there own production company and put all the black actors they want in lead rolls. Oh wait then she couldn't bitch about not enough black actors getting lead rolls anymore, and she would have nothing to say.

I also don't feel that I (a SWM) shouldn't be held accountable to thing that occurred 100 years before I was born. Weather it is racial or gender related. Do I deserve to hear "It's cause I'm black." every time I argue with some guy I work with who happens to be black, or "It's because I'm a woman." just because the person I'm arguing with happens to be a woman. No I do not. Just like how Todd Ballis, a cop who was shot in the hood by a crack dealer, didn't deserve to have garbage dumped on him wile his partner gave him CPR. Just so you know, the Crack Dealer's father was a Jamaican cop, and he was quoted as saying "Hang him" in regard to his own son.

As far as slavery goes... hay my Irish Catholic ancestors were enslaved by the protestant English, but I don't feel that I should get anything. It happened before I was born, and all the people involved are dead. No body on this earth owes anyone a damn thing. You owe it to yourself to rise above your humble beginnings and become something. If I fail in life it's not because of my parents of friends, it because of me. The same hold true for everyone else.
 
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TKpervert wrote... Ya'll back up a bit and re-read the title of this thread as originally posited by Dave2112.
The thread has degenerated into X-vs-X dialog which can only lead to antagonism.

How 'bout some answers to Dave's question ???

TKPervert...ur right and that is what I will try and do but in all fairness the responses that I have read thus far are all underlying issues/feelings/situations that exist in reality that assist in answering Daves question🙂

I have seen so many great points in this thread that reiterate how I feel or what I believe...but I can mostly identify with things that Tkl-duo Ann (I love u!)...lol, Gripped Chimp, Knox the Hatter, Moses25 and Brianspencer6 as well as a few others I cannot remember (sorry)have said....

I won't copy and paste and comment on each and every point that each one said because this isn't my thread but I will suffice it to say that the breakdown of why racist or racist-like comments seem to be acceptable in one arena and by one group or person and not in and by another is a combination of what we all already know...what I think it comes down to ...the why of why we can't all just agree that there is an element of relevance in what everyone says and thinks...well almost everyone...lol...is that people want to, no need to be right...they don't want to get along they want to be right...ego and misperception is probably the number one reason (or two reasons, doh!) why things said, go amiss... and it is why jokes are funny to one person and offensive to another...there is reality and then there is perception....people hear u say something and rather than ask for clarification of what u intended it to mean (not always what they heard it to mean) they choose to interpret it to suit whatever wound they need to heal through blaming other people and not taking personal responsibility (another area the world in general is lacking)...and then there is the fact that we all want to be heard..but we want to take it a step further...we want others to agree and to sway to how we think....the reasons why people have heated debates rather than calm rational discussions is an age old problem that has caused and maintained wars and discourd everywhere and the reason is because we want to be "right" not heard...it transcends racism and inequality of humans....and spans across any domain that affects us on any given day that people either benefit from or suffer the inequities of....we will never all get along because everyone has an agenda and unfortunately and probably pessimistically speaking, on a deep scary level most people don't really want to get along, they just want to get away with....we live in a self centered world that despite our justice system develops it's own rules and tries to live by them as if they were the only people that live on this planet....I sound negative but voicing my opinion on the world at large makes me feel sadly discouraged so I can't really help it....it's sad that God created us in his image and he is a lover of people, those of us that say we love God really are just giving lip service because God loves EVERYONE, not just the white, black, hispanic, abled, disabled, beautiful or unattractive...if we love God we will do what he does ....sorry dave, I digress,...kinda...it's all related I think🙂
 
racism and minorites

First off I read some of the post since my last reply and Ticklemmmee and the other gentlemen were correct there was not enough focus on what Dave was getting and and the post have taken on a freeform life of there own.
First off Dave was talking about a real life situation in which a man lost his job for his foolish utterances and a sitcom with latino characters. The show in question is called *Luis* starring Luis Guzman on Fox on Friday nights. Now I have never saw the show but it takes place in East Harlem and Luis is the owner of a donut shop and owns the apartment bldg over it i believe. Now as a black male who grew up in harlem i just want to point out that it is not uncommon for people there to make the kind of jokes that Dave heard on the show and they were only trying to reflect real life, and as hard to understand why that is acceptable,it is not uncommon for people of the same backround to make jokes about themselves if you live in a place like New York or Chicago or Philly because unlike a good part of the country these places were and still are ethnic melting pots in the more working class and poor areas.
Even a nice middle class show like Will and Grace you always here gay jokes that no self respecting straight person should say to them merely because straight people are outsiders. I wont stop there,think of Margret Cho who is Korean American same thing. This is not exclusive to blacks and latinos but common with most or all ethnics.
Think also of the roast with Dino and Ole blue eyes or all those borsh belt jewish comedians those jewish jokes were flying out the window see. get my point dave?
Now i did not want to mention names but Tickleslave pointed out about Haley Barries *bitching*. And his comment was why does she Denzel and Wesley Snipes not form a production company and make movies so Haley would stop *bitching* about there being not enought roles for black actress. Well the fact is Tickleslave ahh Mr Snipes has already done that and its called *Ahmen Rah Productions* and there are others too *Brownhouse* and *Harpo* (thats Oprahs) and there is *Trinity Girl* and *Blade 2* and Forty Acres and a Mule* and Debbie Allen, Tim Reid and LaVar Burton have production companies.
Need I go on? So its not like Miss Barrie is *Bitching* for nothing and black actors are not lazy, There is not enough work,open newspapers and look at the movie listing and count the white actors then count the black ones ok?
AS for the white football player do you have a name? A team? A league lol? No so I will comment not further
I dont want people to feel responsible for 100 yrs ago that is silly,if you look at my post i was talking of injustice 30 yrs ago so they can stop putting so much distance between themselves and reality thats all. And I dont want anything either.
As for your family well im fully aware of the plight of the irish catholics not wanting to be part of the british empire and a minority there and the problems associated with the great potatoe famine (1845 to 51) Irish immigrants were treated worse than african americans when they came to these shores and could not find work or decent housing in nyc. Believe me as a black man i completely understand what it was like for your family as the underdog its just to bad you dont mine.
 
TKpervert said:
Ya'll back up a bit and re-read the title of this thread as originally posited by Dave2112.
The thread has degenerated into X-vs-X dialog which can only lead to antagonism.

How 'bout some answers to Dave's question ???
Ok...because I said so.

Howzzat?

Cheers.😀
 
Re: Check this one out...

SlaverTickler said:
As far as slavery goes... hay my Irish Catholic ansesters were enslaved by the prodestant English, but I don't feel that I should get anything. It happend before I was born, and all the people envolved are dead. No body on this earth ows anyone a damb thing. You owe it to yourself to rise above your humble beginings and become something. If I fail in lif it's not because of my parents of friends, it because of me. The same hold true for everyone elts.

That sums it all up.

The people who are trying to get compensation for the enslavement of their "forefathers" are complete freeloaders who are looking for an easy buck. Rather than do what most sucessful people have to do (work for a living) they'd rather sit on their lazy, bone-idle, litigacious asshole, and piss some tax dollars down the drain. If they feel that they have been discriminated against because of their race, that's totaly different. But trying to get a few quid because they can take advantage of the world's most fucked-up legal system, is beyond cynical.
 
That was a pretty funny joke!

Humans always have been and will be imperfect creatures at best, hypocritical at worst. Reguardless of race, age, country or historica period. That's why this stuff happens. It's kind of like saying someone "deserves" to be fired for telling a tastless joke. They deserve a cold icy stare, not ruination of their career in the land of the First Amendment. here's hoping that guy sues the company for wrongful termination, retail prices go up, resulting in cutbacks at the job and everyone being miserable. Sometimes as a species what we get is what we deserve.
 
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Tough topic here tieler, and nicely stated.
I think I'm done with this thread too.
 
I only wish I would of found this thread sooner. I have loved seeing all the vast opinions on this subject. It's very healthy to have opinions and debate. So I have to voice mine. First, the guy who made the joke should not have lost his job. He should have been repremanded for sure but I do feel there was more to his firing and that was the way his company could get rid of him. Now being black in america yes I have seen some bad and some good. I personally hate the "N" word and try not to use it. I get offended if someone uses it and they are white as well as if they are black. But that's the way of the world. Every race seems to have a word they use like that. As far as getting things in life. I have worked very hard for all that I got. Hard work was instilled in me at a very young age. I do believe that everyone who is capable should get a job but I see all races have lazy people. Welfare to me is the easy way out. I personally don't want anyone to apologize to me about slavery. It happened it was wrong but move on and lets work on things happening today. Yes I have been pulled over by police and remember a time when I was at a wrestling match and a cop banged right into me and then said to his partner "Did you see what I did to that N****r". That's what I hate. I don't judge anyone here by any of the comments that they have made and the race problem won't be solved by us. It's just a shame that in 2003 we are talking about this. As a society there are some unique differences in all. They should be accepted. If everyone were educated on all history. I'm thinking world history and opened there minds just a bit to see a total view and yes put yourself in another persons shoes. This place would be a lot better.


pghtickleguy
 
pghtickleguy said:
I only wish I would of found this thread sooner. I have loved seeing all the vast opinions on this subject. It's very healthy to have opinions and debate.
Gee, where have I heard before?

Thank you, guy. I stand corrected.

Cheers.😀
 
Yes I have been pulled over by police and remember a time when I was at a wrestling match and a cop banged right into me and then said to his partner "Did you see what I did to that N****r". That's what I hate. [/B]


Well, as a southern white boy, I'm sorry that happened to you. We're all imperfect to varying degrees, and a nasty joke can certainly be innapropriate and hurtful. But there was no reason for what happend to you to have happened and THAT'S the time when maybe jobs should be terminated. Abuse. Using power over someone. Along with the higher, nobler side we all have, we also have a more darker, animalistic side. Absolute repression of that side I think is unrealistic, but letting it win over is wrong. when that lower animal side becomes a real factor in how you deal with people in a greater society, it's bad news. Again, it was wrong and I'm sorry you had to experience that.
 
Bakc Up A Moment...

If the U.S.A. is the greatest country in the world, why is Canada always considered the better place to live ? I would agree that you guys are the most powerful, and no doubt (by virtue of Population) have some of the finest athletes in the world. However I think that we Canucks have just as much going for us (outside of our small army), and people the world over like us too. In closing we are great in spite of our humble tendencies (and my lousy spelling) 🙂. and we won the war of 1812 when you dudes tried to steal us away from the Britt's
 
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They do have a large population, but I think attitude is more to do with it. Britain has three times the population of Australia, but the Aussies have a cricket team that is many times better than ours.

Preferred place to live? Maybe the free healthcare has something to do with it, although our NHS, the Canadian equivalent and Medicaid in America are all on the verge of collapse because they prefer to propogate disease instead of encouraging health.

And 1812 was a very good year. Nothing like burning a capital city to the ground to brighten the spirits. :bouncybou
 
oh good a canuk

last time(and it is the last time i'll ever go there)i was in canada i got cut off, flipped the bird, shouted at, etc. every time i drove. those were the rudest people i have ever encountered! it was all because i was driving a car with american state plates on it. it was f**k you yank! go back to america asshole! and alike.
yes let's talk about your vaunted health care system. i'm very familiar with it! how about waiting 6 weeks for an ultra sound, and 3 months for an mri. i've taken care a 3 different canadians who came here to chicago to get tests, and sugeries done, cause if they'd waited in canada, they would have died!
a better and more popular place to live?!?! that's a laugh. you are welcome to your insignificant waste land!
btw, it was big jims relitives who beat us in canada, not the canadians. most of them were french at the time anyway! but jim, i seem to recall a little battle that capped the war. took place in 1815, just outside of new orleans. talk about a slaughter.
also we had a guy who made it a habbit of raiding your costal towns, and looting the places. i think he was john paul jones, rember him?
steve
btw, i was visiting cousins in the toronto area
 
BITCHSLAP!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh......there's a little bit of national outrage there. 😀 Sit down and have a Flat-Liner! Come to think of it I want one too. Oh bugger it, let's have half a dozen.

BTW Steve, did you ever check out those legal codes I gave you about America's legal status being that of a bankrupt corporation?
 
Re: Bakc Up A Moment...

SlaverTickler said:
If the U.S.A. is the greatest country in the world, why is Canada alway considered the better place to live ? I would agree that you guys are the most powerful, and no dought (by vertue of Population) have some of the finest athleats in the world. However I think that we Canuck's have just as much going for us (outside of our small army), and people the world over like us too. In closing we are great inspite of our humble tendancies (and my lousy spelling) 🙂. and we wond the war of 1812 when you dudes tried to steal us away from the Britt's

I like your bacon!
 
normally i don't comment on threads like this...but anyway here is my opinion for whatever its worth.

in a perfect world...nobody would ever use the n-word, call some one a spic,mic, or gook or a monkey 🙂( my best friend's husband uses that one alot🙁 )...anyways my point...i'm not sure why its alright for those within a race or ethnic group to use those words and those who are "outsiders" cannot...in my humble idealistic opinion NOBODY should use those words...whether they mean them as a term of endearment or not...words are hurtful, maybe not in the same way a fist is ( a fist is more instantaneous and at times the physical pain will go away quickly), BUT words can have such a lasting impact to another human being and i think its terrible that we treat each other this way...i think if we at least made a honest attempt to not neccessarily love each other but to at least tolerate each other, maybe we might actually do something good for this little planet. anyways thats enough of my idealistic soapbox rant. thanks for your time. just remember we are HUMANS first and races,ethnic groups,females,males 2nd.
 
Re: the debate

Ok, I'm just going to jump right in on this one.

I agree with what some of you said about stereotype-based names and jokes having different meanings coming from different people. When members of the same ethnic community call each other one of those names they often seem to mean it, at least in my experience, as a mark of solidarity. It's like saying "the world gave me this label too and treats me like crap too". Makes the community tighter in a way. The flipside is that it keeps them isolated. But when an "outsider" of the community uses those terms or cracks a racist (or sexist or whatever) joke that person is usually trying to assert some sort of racial/gender/religion superiority.

Do I think such double standards should exist? In a perfect world, no. They only cause problems. Besides perpetuating misinformation across groups of people, to call one's family or friends lazy or cheap or stupid is like giving them licence to be lazy or cheap or stupid because people always see some small element of truth in jokes and that gives them reason to think that no one expect any better from them.

So who else has 2 cents?
Morning Angel :angel:

Oh, and ain't nobody better be dissin' Canadians! areenactor, I won't waste everyone's time listing all the positive things about the true north, but I consider it a great country. I'm sorry that those Torontonians were rude to you, but every city has its share of a**holes and it's not fair to judge a whole society based on a few jerks the rest of us hate too. It would be equally wrong to do that to the U.S. (although some Americans would give me plenty of ammunition). You do have a point about our health care though :sowrong:
 
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Re: Re: the debate

Morning Angel said:
I'm sorry that those Torontonians were rude to you, but every city has its share of a**holes and it's not fair to judge a whole society based on a few jerks the rest of us hate too. It would be equally wrong to do that to the U.S. (although some Americans would give me plenty of ammunition).

Especially New Yorkers and Texans. 😀

*hurriedly ducks the rocks thrown by Texan and NYC TMF'ers and scurries back off into his rat-hole*
 
Angels point no fingers... not even at Texans😛. Actually, a good friend of mine is a Texan. She's open-minded and sweet and doesn't own a gun. Who knew?

Hmmm... have we veered off-topic again?

Morning Angel:angel:
 
Re: Re: Re: the debate

BigJim said:
Especially New Yorkers and Texans. 😀

*hurriedly ducks the rocks thrown by Texan and NYC TMF'ers and scurries back off into his rat-hole*


Oh, Jim. It's bizzare - around 1980, many here wanted and still want Dallas to be a 'new' New York, an international city, but with only all the good stuff that comes with it, none of the bad, with little reguard of preserving history, all while wanting Dallas to keep its "identity".


I blame the Vietnamese and Mormons.
 
This article has so many good points, I'll post it in full:

An Ugly Game
By BOB HERBERT

Published: October 17, 2003

Forum: Discuss This Column

Ghettopoly is a board game, based on Monopoly, and it has a lot of people fired up.

Marches and protests by people denouncing the game as racist have distributors running for cover. Yahoo and eBay have blocked the sale of the game on their sites, and the Urban Outfitters chain has stopped selling it in stores.

People are outraged — outraged! — that a game would portray inner-city blacks as pimps and hustlers and ho's.

Kweisi Mfume, president of the N.A.A.C.P., has threatened to boycott sellers of Ghettopoly, which he described as "demeaning, repugnant and reprehensible, to say the least."

For the record: Ghettopoly is without question an ugly game that promotes disgusting racial stereotypes. It presents blacks as murderous, thieving, dope-dealing, carjacking degenerates. Instead of the familiar Monopoly pieces, like top hats and thimbles, Ghettopoly players get to move around the board as pimps, machine guns and rocks of crack cocaine.

So I'm not feeling sorry for David Chang, the game's beleaguered 28-year-old creator. What I'd like to know is why all this outrage is springing up over a board game when so little is heard in the way of protest about the outlandishly self-destructive behavior that gives rise to a game like Ghettopoly, and which is burying any chance of a viable future for extraordinary numbers of young black men and women, and their children.

How can you march against a game and not march against the real-life slaughter on the streets and in the homes of inner cities across America? Violent crime, ignorance and disease are carving the very heart out of America's black population.

The president of the Los Angeles Council of Churches, the Rev. Leonard Jackson, told me last spring about the long line of funerals he's had to conduct for young black men and women, and boys and girls. He seemed on the verge of tears. "The young people have more of a chance of dying here in South Central than in a military combat zone," he said.

Instead of using their influence to help stop the slaughter, certain truly twisted elements of the hip-hop culture encourage it, celebrating it in songs that not only glorify murderous violence, but also degrade black people to a degree that should leave any sensible person stupefied.

"We dangerous," says one song. "Bitches pay a fee just to hang with us."

Trust me, we've got some problems that are bigger than Ghettopoly. We've got insane young men who take their heavy armament into the street and shoot up the neighborhood, and then go back inside to listen to music that celebrates the act of shooting up the neighborhood. That is not a sign of a healthy culture.

It's not that there's been no protest. Marc Morial, the new president of the Urban League, said in a speech last summer that "too many of our young black males believe that manhood is defined by the ability to injure or damage another man, rather than helping another man."

The Urban League, the N.A.A.C.P. and many other groups and individuals are trying to address some of the myriad problems facing black America.

But the efforts have been too few and too timid. And they haven't been accompanied by the bold, honest, creative and self-critical thinking that is an absolutely necessary precursor to action that would be effective.

Ghettopoly is a stupid and offensive game. But its reach is nowhere near as vast or as dangerous as the "Lord of the Flies" street culture that is seducing one generation after another of black children, and producing freakish entertainers like Nelly and 50 Cent.

We learned last month that Nelly, a male rapper from St. Louis, was marketing a new drink called Pimp Juice — aimed, I suppose, at niggaz and ho's. The drink was a follow-up to Nelly's hit song of the same name, a song with such immortal lines as "You ain't from Russia, so bitch why you Russian?"

50 Cent has the top album of the year, and one of the hit songs is "P.I.M.P." He brags in the song that he'll have his ho "stripping in the street." Of one of his women, he says, "The last nigga she was with put stitches in her head."

That's not entertainment. That's a symptom.
 
Good points, all of them. People would rather march against something that can do no-one any harm if it's childish and idiotic stereotyping is ignored (which would also drive it out of existence, because of awful sales) than they would march against something that is a real threat to the country and it's way of life.
 
Here is my 2 cents and you can return it if you don't agree. The reason other minorities say these derrogatory remarks to each other is unfortunately, it has become fraternal. we say these things because sometimes people either don't or won't use anything else, which is unfortunate. It has become a part of everyday life. I am black, so the word nigger has been used as commonplace in our communities. Do I get angry when I hear it? yes and no. Yes is because, I am not one, and also because i don't want any other race to think its cool to say it too. And no because if its just black people around, I know that it wasn't meant for derrogatory purposes. You see, amongst the blacks, that word has a different meaning to us It can be the equivalent of saying "homeboy" or "dawg". Now, does that make it acceptable? no it doesn't, but that's the way it is. One thing is for sure: we have a seriously long way to go before we are all equal, and we have a long way to go before we stop using racial epithets to demoralize our own people, whomever the ethnicity.

thanx for letting me go on with my rambling diatribe...
 
I hate double standards

Like many politically correct things in today's world, this is what I'd call a double standard. If black people don't like it when white people use the N word, they shouldn't use it to describe themselves. Personally, I think no one should use racist language to describe people, regardless of which people they are and who they are describing in that way.

Now, why is it tolerated in today's society? One word = Stupidity. People are allowed to disgrace their own race because there are no laws against stupidity. Many laws, like affirmative action, tend to promote stupidity rather than protect minority rights. If people stop asking questions based on race, eventually we'll stop caring about it.
 
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