defensive end

[jj82277]

I think that the coaches of the old school would be appoled at the attention the passing game is getting these days. most teas today think that the most premium positions are Left tackls Right defensive end, Wie reciever, and cornerback. When did people start making up these rules. I see Cornerbacks getting 10 plus million dollar signing bonuses, and people are grabbing pass rushers like gold. what does a defensive end really provide you anyway. the best you can hope for is 26 sacks out of one playter. that means about 1 per game. that's one pass play you don't have to worry about. what about the other 30. Corey Dillon last year (a franchise soon to be hall of fame back) was traded for a second round pick. a second round pick. but if you wanted to get Jevon Kearse or Dwight Freeney, you would probably have to motgage your house, or in other words give up multiple first day picks including a first rounder. I look at the Patriots and I see a team that has conquered the salary cap by stopping the run, and consistantly running the football. I think that the rest of the league is shifting towards becoming the next vikings or colts team with a lot of inconsistent firepower that gets knocked off in the playoffs.

Is there anyone else who thinks that this position has become too over rated.

 

[wk23]

I don't think it is overrated...your the first person I've heard that has brought up this position being overrated. I think a lot of the talk of defensive ends lately has to do with the depth of that position going into the draft. This year in particular has a very deep pool of defensive ends and defensive end/outside linebacker 'tweeners.
The big reason cornerbacks are getting the big bucks lately has a lot to do with the rule change (chuck rule) in the NFL. You can't touch the receivers anymore after 5 yards, so having pure athletes and playmakers at cornerback has become a premium....and having a great pass rush only helps the cornerbacks and safeties. You don't need to sack the quarterback to have an effective pass defense. As long as you put consistent pressure on the QB play in and play out, it starts to wear on that QB.
But you are right though, stopping the run is the key to having a successful defense. If you can't stop the run, more often than not, you won't win. And what helps in run defense, good DT's and, yes, defensive ends!

 

[naveltkltr1350]

I think that the coaches of the old school would be appoled at the attention the passing game is getting these days. most teas today think that the most premium positions are Left tackls Right defensive end, Wie reciever, and cornerback. When did people start making up these rules. I see Cornerbacks getting 10 plus million dollar signing bonuses, and people are grabbing pass rushers like gold. what does a defensive end really provide you anyway. the best you can hope for is 26 sacks out of one playter. that means about 1 per game. that's one pass play you don't have to worry about. what about the other 30. Corey Dillon last year (a franchise soon to be hall of fame back) was traded for a second round pick. a second round pick. but if you wanted to get Jevon Kearse or Dwight Freeney, you would probably have to motgage your house, or in other words give up multiple first day picks including a first rounder. I look at the Patriots and I see a team that has conquered the salary cap by stopping the run, and consistantly running the football. I think that the rest of the league is shifting towards becoming the next vikings or colts team with a lot of inconsistent firepower that gets knocked off in the playoffs.

Is there anyone else who thinks that this position has become too over rated.

Being a former DE myself in Highschool, I know how you feel..but DE's can play multiple roles. Coverage, pressure and just basically making a huge ass pile to stuff a run. In coverage, we can hit the Tight end if he was over us. play off the tackle closing the gap while containing any run or screen play that may come our way. DT are used for stuffing the run through the middle. De's are basically a linebacker on the line, who "blitzes" aka pressures on top of contains. Very important role on your defense. They can help free up the linebackers so they can make a play. We were always taught to go after the ball without giving up containment to the outside. Inside..LBs and Safeties are there to stop. So I think the Defensive End is actually well rated right now. Very important role. Dt's are usually pushing between 280 and 330+ lbs Too heavy to contain(see tony siragusa). Now De's are known to be "trapped" a lot..by having the tackle blow past ya and you being set up by a pulling guard, back or "crackblocking" wide reciever. The first thing we are taught there is to "shoot" the trap. Take out the guy and make a pile..which means the back has to find another way, by that means slowing him down and giving the rest of the defense to readjust and make the play behind the line of scrimmage. The Defensive End is a huge role in any teams defense..but the key word in that all..is team..something the New England Patriots have found to use that basically brings teams down to their knees..Teamwork on defense usually means a smothering defense. Defense lately has proven to win games...championships. So my opinion is that the Defensive end is a justified position with good recognition and rated very well by teams. I just think everyone in the NFL is overpaid. Especially Champ Bailey and Peyton Manning, who are both very good dont get me wrong and one is at least a Hall of Famer for sure. I just read what wk has said and hes completely right about needing true athletes to be able to play that five yard bump rule on speedy and tall wide recievers. Very well said WK.

 

[naveltkltr1350]

the best you can hope for is 26 sacks out of one playter. that means about 1 per game. that's one pass play you don't have to worry about. what about the other 30.

I dont know how many games they play were you are at..but we only play 16..so your saying that 26 sacks = 1 per game..then well..your math is off..lol! Youre actually 6 sacks off of having 2 per game..26 is a lot for any one person to get in a season, but it is not impossible. 30 passing plays? With some teams..they pay around 50 and some teams sometimes around 7. Its hard to even say that it doesnt make a difference. That one sack..can mean everything. Ive seen teams crushed by just one sack. A sack that leads to a fumble, saftey, int, touchdown, and worst of all..an Injured starting QB..a pro bowler or future hall of famer at that. I dont like seeing people injured though. I do love BIG HITS! oh yeah and the Superbowl Shuffle..not to be mistakin by the Icky Shuffle (Icky Woods..Bengals Rb in the 80s and early 90s):tounge:

 

[wk23]

That one sack..can mean everything. Ive seen teams crushed by just one sack.:tounge:

Yes! One sack can mean a lot. You have to figure, close game, fourth quarter...get "one" sack and that puts them at 2nd and long or 3rd and long. Not to mention "momentum" at a critical point in the game. From there, the defensive line (yes, the DE's also) can pin their ears back and put pressure on the quaterback and make him throw a pass he doesn't want to throw. Hopefully an overpaid cornerback can knock it down or pick it off. 🙂

 

[wk23]

This football talk is gettin my juices flowin! Especially your descriptions of the roles on defense naveltklr1350. I'm ready to tackle my co-workers walking by my office!! Go chop-block my boss!! LOL 😀

 

[jj82277]

sorry navel, I hit the wrong number, I meant 16 sacks and i used Dewight Freeneys totall from last year as a guide because he was one of the top pass rushers in the leauge.

 

[jj82277]

don't get me wrong, I love the defensive end position, and I love playing pass defense, but I always valued interceptions more, and that's just my personal oppinion. because two sacks and a blown coverage = touchdown, and an interception means ball your way. I do not mean to say that the pass rush in of itself is not important, but consistantly tight coverage I think is more important.

And by over valued i mean the fact that now people are taking defensive ends and left tackles before runningbacks. When i look at the position "values" i always get a little miffed, because my philosophy has always been to build from the inside out. And i brought up the likely hood of sacks because when you look at the way the Patriots have left, so called premier pass rushers in the dust. Jevon Kearse, Dewight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Grant Winstrom, and the steelers defense as a whole. they moved the ball consistently by running straight at these guys, and keeping them off balance. untill someone can stop Corey Dillon, i think that Tom Brady will have a clean Jersey for a while, but that's just my oppinion.

ANd navel, I am a former strongside pulling guard, so i have an inborn disdain for you, only kidding. but I do know all the things that you guys were responsible for and i don't mean to make light of that, I just don't see putting 15 million of signing bonus on any one position outside of quarterback.

 

[naveltkltr1350]

don't get me wrong, I love the defensive end position, and I love playing pass defense, but I always valued interceptions more, and that's just my personal oppinion. because two sacks and a blown coverage = touchdown, and an interception means ball your way. I do not mean to say that the pass rush in of itself is not important, but consistantly tight coverage I think is more important.

And by over valued i mean the fact that now people are taking defensive ends and left tackles before runningbacks. When i look at the position "values" i always get a little miffed, because my philosophy has always been to build from the inside out. And i brought up the likely hood of sacks because when you look at the way the Patriots have left, so called premier pass rushers in the dust. Jevon Kearse, Dewight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Grant Winstrom, and the steelers defense as a whole. they moved the ball consistently by running straight at these guys, and keeping them off balance. untill someone can stop Corey Dillon, i think that Tom Brady will have a clean Jersey for a while, but that's just my oppinion.

ANd navel, I am a former strongside pulling guard, so i have an inborn disdain for you, only kidding. but I do know all the things that you guys were responsible for and i don't mean to make light of that, I just don't see putting 15 million of signing bonus on any one position outside of quarterback.

I respect your views about the price of them being over paid..only thing i disagreed on was the fact that you said they were overrated. Im glad to see we have some football fans on this site that I can talk to. I used to play Offensive Tackle and Defensive End in high school. When needed I played fullback(kinda like the fridge but only at 215lbs) and I played LB hmm..Willie McGinest comes to mind. I used to love putting blitzing backers on their asses while shoving the end way outta the way for the fullback to just plow over. Ahh..how I miss football. I loved Tackle Eligible too..thats where I could block and basically act like a tight end and go out for a pass! 😀

Okay..my team is the Dolphins..always has been always will be. You know our current situation and Id love to see Saban pick up a DT/DE ...IF...and thats a Big IF...what the rumors have been flying around are true..Ricky Williams ends his pot smoking saga and rejoins the Dolphins. Saban loves the kid for LSU named Marcus Spears..hes coached Marcus for four years and believes that he is a dominating force as well as Eramus James(DT/DE/OLB) of Wisconsin. If they get Ricky back(minus his four game suspension..we can use a different back or even sign a decent free agent back) we should pick up Spears or James. Taylor cannot hold an entire line by himself. Jason is good, but not that good. D-Line is what sets up the second and third levels of a defense. Now the Patriots and Ravens are set up like that. Big boys up front and great backers and backs behind them. Great..because they get the time to make the plays. Bruschi..Lewis..Vrabel..Bowlware..McAllister..Harrison..Law..Reed..i mixed up the players and teams..they couldnt do their jobs if it wasnt for the Richard Seymours and Ted Washington(now with raiders) and basically the whole ravens big boys up front. I am with you in saying that some positions are over paid..but i think it should be based on productivity of the individual and not on the position. Thats how the importance/rating and pay should be based on. Not just because its a position. Doesnt matter if you have the biggest guy playing DE..if he cant do shit(Reggie White of Packers <RIP> during the '98 superbowl where Tony Jones of Denver schooled him all game) then his rankin isnt that important. He didnt do much to stop Terrell and John from marching all over them. Actually..Denvers Hogs uprooted a very good Defensive Line and made the rest of the D..penitrable(sp) LeRoy Butler was worthless cause the put Shannon Sharpe out on him, took him outta his game cause Reggie wasnt really getting a shot on him and then was being blown away by Jones. Gilbert who was like 350..he was double teamed..didnt do his job on "sitting" and creating a pile..just got drove outta the way and opened up the holes for terrell to run behind his FB who took out the second and third level players. Thats my POV of things guys. I love talkin football..lets keep this thread going. 😀

 

[alchemy1]

I think that the coaches of the old school would be appoled at the attention the passing game is getting these days. most teas today think that the most premium positions are Left tackls Right defensive end, Wie reciever, and cornerback. When did people start making up these rules. I see Cornerbacks getting 10 plus million dollar signing bonuses, and people are grabbing pass rushers like gold. what does a defensive end really provide you anyway. the best you can hope for is 26 sacks out of one playter. that means about 1 per game. that's one pass play you don't have to worry about. what about the other 30. Corey Dillon last year (a franchise soon to be hall of fame back) was traded for a second round pick. a second round pick. but if you wanted to get Jevon Kearse or Dwight Freeney, you would probably have to motgage your house, or in other words give up multiple first day picks including a first rounder. I look at the Patriots and I see a team that has conquered the salary cap by stopping the run, and consistantly running the football. I think that the rest of the league is shifting towards becoming the next vikings or colts team with a lot of inconsistent firepower that gets knocked off in the playoffs.

Is there anyone else who thinks that this position has become too over rated.

I think that people have the wrong idea about the patriots. To me, the pats have won consistantly because they have excelent coaching, discipline, and a front office that's commited to winning. Without even one of these things, you could copy all of the Pats offense you want and you would go nowhere. Now I agree that firepower in and of itself does not win games, but personally, I believe that if you gave the Colts (for example) the same level of coaching, discipline and front office, they would not only beat the Pats, but with their firepower, they would destroy them. I just think that too many teams try to copy schemes rather than coaching or management. I mean, just look at the West Coast offense...it's everywhere! Now, though it is my fav offense, without good defense, good coaching, good discipline, and good management, you will not win a superbowl. My point is that a team does not have to lose it's identity to win...ever. If a team is not winning, adopting a new offense/defense every year will never work until they realize that their problem is more than likely in the coaching or the organiztion itself.
There is an old martial arts saying that I think applys here.

"There are many paths one might take to reach the top of the mountain."

 

[naveltkltr1350]

I mean, just look at the West Coast offense...it's everywhere! Now, though it is my fav offense, without good defense, good coaching, good discipline, and good management, you will not win a superbowl.

Yepp! Just look at the Detroit Lions! lmfao..sorry Krystle..I had to make a joke in there about Your Lions! lmao 😀

 

[jj82277]

alchemy, thank you for making my point for me. let me explain. I was not implying that just because they picked up Corey Dillon that they were winning, I was speaking to the overall philosophy and charecter of the organization. the Pats really don't do all that much with scheme. I think that is a misnomer, they actually run the same third grade plays over and over. they just run them very well (Joe Gibbs did the same thing) Genuis is simplicity. what makes there defense so good is because they are not only disciplined, but they are designed to stop the run first. Richard Seymour is a pro-bown 3-4 defensive end, but could easily play tackle on any number of teams. There should have been a league rule against letting them draft Vince Wolfork from Miami in the first round. they replaced Ted Washington with a player that this year will be better than he was, and that's scary. I think that they also employ discipline through team play. not a lot of people realize that sometimes not trusting your team, mate and disreguarding your assignment gets you in trouble, and I give a lot of credit to Belicheck and his coaches for instilling these principles in their players. They don't just rely on their DE to make plays in the passing game, they play the most disciplined zone defense that i have seen in the rule imphasis era.

As far as the Colts go, don't get me wrong, they are a great football team. I think taht Peyton manning might be one of the most disciplined and well coached QBs to ever play the game. I think that they are doing extremely well with the hand that they were dealt. I hope that you think Tony Dungy is at least a decent coach, I mean a parenial playoff head coach. But I think that this past year should have demonstrated that they are not on the same physical plane as the Pats. I mean you think about it, the league tweaked the rules around the pass specifically with the Pats in mind. They had all their starting corners out, with a wide reciever playing nickle back. what happened, the Colts got PHYSICALLY DOMINATED. navel will tell you, the team that hits the hardest usually wins. The score was a lot closer than the game, the Pats offense was still rusty from the bye week. All that firepower turned into duds when Wilson and Harrison started teeing off. If you are not a physicall player, when you get hit you loose all confidence. you could see it in Brandon Stokely's eyes that he didn't want Peyton to throw him the ball (and i know the turf question comes up, but remember this team beat the rams on turf, and i think that as a whole they had a better offense, and they don't give out homefield advantage). you learn how to hit hard by taking pride in blocking, tackling, and running the football. any good coach, like belicheck, will tell his team that, and any good front office will design a team around that concept, as the Pats have (and they're not close to being done). Don't get me wrong I love the passing game, but with every year that passes I grow more and more a fan of turn, and hand it off for 5 yards. not just because of the consistency that the running game provides, but the mentality it instills in a football team. And their defense is the purpse behind this post. the best pair of Defensive Ends in the league, hands down are Mathis and Freeney. I think that they did a great job in picking those two young guys, but that doesn't really make a defense strong. I look at my Hometown Jags who went out and got two truly dominant DT's and managed a top 10 defense while still building.

 

[naveltkltr1350]

I look at my Hometown Jags who went out and got two truly dominant DT's and managed a top 10 defense while still building.

AYE! The Jags are a team to watch out for this year. I just watched a special on them on the NFL Network. Now living in ohio, even though its northern ohio and that im a buckeyes fan, ive always like watching Marshall play. So ive seen Moss, Pennington, Leftwhich and damn it..the widereceiver from Denver who name just slipped my mind and is still on the tip of my tongue..play. I enjoyed watching Byron play. Hes a big boy. Jags are definately a team to watch out for. Now defensive ends..i liked your choices but lets not forget Jason Taylor, Mike Rucker,and even Terrell Suggs who now mainly plays the olb role for Baltimore.
Just a few names i thought id throw out to you guys.

 

[jj82277]

I think you are taling about Ashlee Lelie.

I am not sold on Leftwhich, I think that he has a strong arm, but that's not good enough. I watched him play all this year and his timing is no where near where it needs to be, and his accuracy is suffering. I mean he couldn't consistently hit a slant. we are getting a new OC to put in a deeper passing game, but the juries still out. But you're right, Marshall has put out some talent.

And actually from what i have seen, I think that the Dolphins will make a run this year too. I look at it as you just lost your franchise player for whatever reason. now you have cap room because you don't have to pay him. If i were you guys i would make him pay back the 8.whatever million that he owes you and play a season at league minnimum to see if he's serious, or if he is the same player. I think that he finally realizes he has to pay the money and that's why he wants to come back. My concern also is that he has been smoking pot in india and China for the past year, I don't know if he can handle the ball 25 plus times a game for you guys. and I think that the steal of the draft will be you guys with the 35th pick taking Ciatrick Fason from Florida.

And rumors are that in the new 3-4 configuration that Saban is going to install at Miami, he already has Jason taylor working out at outside linebacker, so i think that you might see them trading out of the #3 pick, moving into the middle of the round, picking up a second round draft choice, and taking your boy Spears from LSU. and that second round choice could turn out to be Jason Cambell from Auburn or Kyle Orton from Purdue, and that would be in essence getting a free franchise QB for properly using the bap philosophy.

 

[jj82277]

I'm sorry i think that's the #2 pick and the 34th pick right

 

[naveltkltr1350]

Correct sir!

well at least 2nd pick..im not sure if they have a 2nd round pick. Ill have to check again. I know we gave up some picks for ricky williams and I think David Boston. I like your picks for my Phins..they seem to know what they are going after..they just wont say who! I like who you have chosen with Fason and then the Qb's..Id like either Orton or Campbell. Sure as hell would beat having feely or ferrote at the helm. lmao. Seriously..it will take time before we get a QB that can play good. Rookie luck for Roethlisberger(who I like, but feel isnt all that great) We will see. I will go more into depth when I come back home from work. Ill have more time to research and elaborate on what im saying. Love the posts JJ keep the football ones coming.

 

[naveltkltr1350]

I think you are talking about Ashlee Lelie.

I

Darius Watts is the guy im talkin about.. 😀