Does anyone here hate Jeter?

[mass1926]

I remember when he first came up into the league everybody hated him if you weren't a Yankees fan. He was over-rated, not a great fielder, not a great hitter, not good enough to be a hall of famer. I even heard some say he was only good cuz of the line-up he was in and wouldn't even be the shortstop on most other ballclubs.

Well, it's years later and he is still the shortstop, has 2 or 3 gold gloves and is the all time Yankees hit leader. He'll have over 3000 hits before he finishes his career and will probably get closer to 100% vote to get into the hall of fame than maybe anyone else to this date. Even Sox fans think he's a good guy now.

My question is, even if you don't like the Yanks, how can you dislike Jeter? He is the ultimate teammate. He says the right things in the media, does the right things on and off the field, total class-act all the way. He doesn't get down on others or himself, keeps his cool in the New York spotlight, and most importantly, he plays as hard now as he did at 22 years old.

 

[Cy/MiG]

I used to when I was younger, but now I just consider him overrated.

He's a quality SS, has earned his due in NY and probably deserves most of what he has gotten, but I don't consider him a 'epic' player in the same mold as others I have seen growing up. He's still HoF worthy without a doubt though.

I'll remember the likes of Big hurt, Jr., A-Rod, Vlady, Pujols and others before Jeter.

To me, Jeter will always be a (NY) media darling and marketable star.

 

[Cy/MiG]

I think we see Jeter that way now because he's still in the spotlight. I bet 20 years from now we look back and realize he was better than we probably give him credit for being. He's about to be 36 and still playing like he's in his prime. Big Hurt and Griffey fell off way before that.

While that's a very valid point (and a huge plus for Jeter), Jeter never dominated his position and/or the league as much as Big Hurt and Jr.

I do think that looking back Jeter will look better and be remembered fondly, but I don't neccessarily think thats a good thing.

Kind of like say... Jamie Moyer or David wells. Looking back, they will look great on a stat sheet, having played 15-20 years effectively and well into their 40's.

However, anybody who followed baseball in the late 80's and 90's will know that Maddux, Rocket, Big Unit, Glavine and Smoltz were all better by a mile and dominated their position in ways that Moyer or Wells never really could.

Now, this doesn't mean that Jeter isn't great and/or an automatic Hall of Famer, but I can think of alot of players who played in the same era who I feel contributed to their team and position more and/or dominated at their peaks.

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

I think EVEYONE should hate the Red Sox and all will be good

 

[Cy/MiG]

Oh yea? Who? Guy hits 300+ and usually gets 200 or more hits a season. Name as many players in the league that match that each year for the past 5 years or so.

First off, Jeter has never had 200+ hits for 5 or more seasons. Not consecutive and not AVG. The most 200+ hit seasons in a row he's had is 3.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml

Now to answer your question:

Off the top of my head I'll name one for sure: Ichiro Suzuki. He's far better than Jeter in my book.

Vlady isn' too far off (maybe 30 hits and .005-.007 BA off) and neither is Bobby Abreu (maybe 20 hits and .002 BA a year off). And in his prime Miguel Tejada was close to that club, too (Chipper Jones, too). Todd Helton pulled it off in the late 90's. Carl Crawford is close to those #'s in 6 of the last 7 years. Nomar did it 6 of 7 years in his prime. From 1995-2002 Larry Walker just about pulled it off w/ more HR's and RBI's and a MUCH higher BA. Manny Ramirez is not more than 15-20 hits off a year (again w/ more HR's, RBI's, SLG and OPS). Same for Magglio Ordonez in his prime. Pujols can't be more than 10 hits a year off (and he hits more HR's, drives in more runs and has a higher OPS). Hanley Ramirez is close as well, with more SB's, and a higher OBP and/or OPS. Do I dare mention A-Rod?

Getting 190 hits w/ a .300 BA is not tough feat. Many good hitter have done it consistently other than Jeter and far better (more HR's, RBI's, OBP, SLG and/or OPS)

Maybe like a handful at best, and I don't know if any of them play shortstop.

That much is true. Jeter is either the 2nd or 3rd best SS of his era (depending on how one rates Barry Larkin) only behind A-Rod. That is fairly indisputable.

So you're telling me that Wade Boggs isn't one of the greatest hitters of the game and he's easily forgotten? Because Jeter is basically Wade Boggs with hit totals and average. Everyone knows that Wade Boggs was a clutch hitter who could beat you as often if not more than the great power hitters of his time. A home run hitter isn't always the greatest hitter of his era. The players that get key hits in key situations, and can hit .300 every season conisistently are just as dangerous if not more so.

Funny that you mention Boggs... because who helped the Yankess win the 1996 World Series alongside Jeter??? Boggs. And Cecil Fielder. And John Wetteland. And David Cone... and many other players who were bought for the purpose of winning a championship.

In fact, if you count the # of hall of famers or borderline Hall Of Famers that Jeter has played with (including duration of time played with) , it'd bet much higher than the average Hall of Fame Player (actively playing).

For example: Other than Edgar Martinez, a borderline HoFamer, what player has Ichiro played with (while they were still servicable) that is a lock to be in the Hall of Fame? If you Count Jr. Griffey, the answer is one.

After checking it out, he is going to be just the 27 or 28th player in history to have 3000 or more hits in his career, and his career batting average as of now is about .314. So, either you are unaware of just how good his numbers are, or you are just one of the many who refuse to admit that he is among the greatest to have ever played the game.

Or I realize that Larkin was just as good (or better than Jeter) with no other good players around him other than a few years of Reggie Sanders and later Greg Vaughn.

Or that Tejada was just as good in different areas, but was just stuck on teams that never shelled out $$$ to win a championship like the Yanks.

Are you gonna tell me that Jeter doesn't have the same caliber as Cal Ripken Jr, who only had a career batting average of .276? Jeter didn't always have A-Rod in his line-up either. For the better part of his career their pop guy was Bernie Williams.

Jeter was better than Cal. However, Jeter still had more productive players in his lineup (or bullpen which helped his team win championships) unlike many other great and/or Hall of Fame players. Cal only ever had two HOF players alongside him during his prime: Robby Alomar and Raffy Palmeiro. The rest were the like of Brady Anderson, BJ Surhoff and Eric Davis.

Switch Cal and Jeter and would the O's win a ton of championships??? Would the Yanks still have one at least one, if not two?

#1=Probably No and #2=Most likely Yes.

As for not contributing much to his team as other players on other teams; Are you serious? Ah, he's referred to as the new Mr. October because he's clutch in the post-season. But yea, you're right, he doesnt do as much for his team as other players do for their teams. All-time playoff hit leader, contributes to a team making the post-season almost every year of his career, and then standing out in the spotlight when they get there.

Skewed stats. Alltime playoff hit leader because the Yanks were stacked and MADE THE PLAYOFFS every year. Don't you think that if Tony Gwynn or Ichiro made the playoffs EVERY YEAR that they, too would be high on that list???

Buddy, you did not give him a fair judgment, you simply argued that because he's not a 40 home-run hitter like the Big Hurt was that he's not a big time player of his era. Ah, the Big Hurt took a Big Fall by his early 30's and virtually fell off the map while Jeter is 35 going on 36 and still posting .300 + averages each year, and around 200 hits per season.

No, my point is that without Big Hurt the Chi-Sox were virtually nothing. Without Griffey the M's were virtually nothing.

Without Jeter the Yanks would have paid top dollar for the best SS they could afford (like Omar Visquel or Edgar Renteria) and probably still would have won a championship or two.

Again---this does not mean that Jeter wasn't great, not a lock Hall of Famer and/or a top-3 player @ his position, because he clearly was. But I'm not going to anoint him GOAT simply because he played in a large media market for a stacked team.

Jeter=great and lock Hall of Famer. But Jeter also=overrated by the media and (biased) NY loving fans.

Give me A-Rod, Larkin and maybe even Nomar, Tejada or Hanley over Jeter. I wouldn't complain one bit.

 

[Cy/MiG]

Everyone you mentioned there though are all gonna be remembered as great players. Guerrero is one of my favorites and Todd Helton will have hall of fame numbers by the end of his career. Again though, you pretty much listed the top players in the game and those are really the only guys that match in terms of hits yearly. That's like what, .01 percent of the players in the league? Jeter is a playoff legend in the biggest baseball city on the planet, I don't think he's gonna be forgotten or not looked back on with high regards.

I agree with that fully and would never say otherwise.

However, this does not change the fact that while Jeter's stats and style of play are/were good, there are many other players (some of whom I mentioned) who did it better than him.

Jeter will only be remembered more than others BECAUSE he played in New York.

That doesn't change the fact that he is slightly below many others (statistically and arguably from a talent standpoint) from his era.

Jeter is great and a Hall of Famer, but is overrated (by the media and NY market mostly)

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

I think we see Jeter that way now because he's still in the spotlight. I bet 20 years from now we look back and realize he was better than we probably give him credit for being. He's about to be 36 and still playing like he's in his prime. Big Hurt and Griffey fell off way before that. Pujols, if he's not juicing, could be the greatest hitter of all time, as much as I cringe at saying it.

Makes you wonder if Jeter is using HGH. Would it shock anyone? Maybe him and A-Roid are sharing needles. All we need is Clemens and we can have a Roid reunion.

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

Yea, the guy barely hits 15 home runs a season. Highly doubt he's on hgh.

Just because he doesn't hit a lot of HRs doesn't mean he isn't using. I mean Ryan Franklin used HGH and does he throw 100 MPH? No! You can be using and not be a homerun hitter.

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

I just think he's a good player. OMG, how can he be a good player right? So hard to swallow that concept? I had to listen to your rant about Pujols being legit so here's mine about Jeter.

Yeah...your claim is Pujols is a user. I never ranted. You ranted. Then you finished with an uncalled for comment. Remember that? I know I do. Anyone who has to resort to uncalled for comments has no creditibility.

And since I was born in the shadows of Yankee Stadium. I know what I am talking about. As far as being legit...when they stop passing needles around the clubhouse at Yankee Stadium then I will believe it is legit.

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

[QUOTE
Now, this doesn't mean that Jeter isn't great and/or an automatic Hall of Famer, but I can think of alot of players who played in the same era who I feel contributed to their team and position more and/or dominated at their peaks.

Oh yea? Who? Guy hits 300+ and usually gets 200 or more hits a season. Name as many players in the league that match that each year for the past 5 years or so. Maybe like a handful at best, and I don't know if any of them play shortstop. So you're telling me that Wade Boggs isn't one of the greatest hitters of the game and he's easily forgotten? Because Jeter is basically Wade Boggs with hit totals and average. Everyone knows that Wade Boggs was a clutch hitter who could beat you as often if not more than the great power hitters of his time. A home run hitter isn't always the greatest hitter of his era. The players that get key hits in key situations, and can hit .300 every season conisistently are just as dangerous if not more so.


After checking it out, he is going to be just the 27 or 28th player in history to have 3000 or more hits in his career, and his career batting average as of now is about .314. So, either you are unaware of just how good his numbers are, or you are just one of the many who refuse to admit that he is among the greatest to have ever played the game. Are you gonna tell me that Jeter doesn't have the same caliber as Cal Ripken Jr, who only had a career batting average of .276? Jeter didn't always have A-Rod in his line-up either. For the better part of his career their pop guy was Bernie Williams.

As for not contributing much to his team as other players on other teams; Are you serious? Ah, he's referred to as the new Mr. October because he's clutch in the post-season. But yea, you're right, he doesnt do as much for his team as other players do for their teams. All-time playoff hit leader, contributes to a team making the post-season almost every year of his career, and then standing out in the spotlight when they get there. Buddy, you did not give him a fair judgment, you simply argued that because he's not a 40 home-run hitter like the Big Hurt was that he's not a big time player of his era. Ah, the Big Hurt took a Big Fall by his early 30's and virtually fell off the map while Jeter is 35 going on 36 and still posting .300 + averages each year, and around 200 hits per season.[/QUOTE]


Year Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1995 NYY 15 48 5 12 4 1 0 7 3 11 0 0 .250 .294 .375 .669
1996 NYY 157 582 104 183 25 6 10 78 48 102 14 7 .314 .370 .430 .800
1997 NYY 159 654 116 190 31 7 10 70 74 125 23 12 .291 .370 .405 .775
1998 NYY 149 626 127 203 25 8 19 84 57 119 30 6 .324 .384 .481 .864
1999 NYY 158 627 134 219 37 9 24 102 91 116 19 8 .349 .438 .552 .989
2000 NYY 148 593 119 201 31 4 15 73 68 99 22 4 .339 .416 .481 .896
2001 NYY 150 614 110 191 35 3 21 74 56 99 27 3 .311 .377 .480 .858
2002 NYY 157 644 124 191 26 0 18 75 73 114 32 3 .297 .373 .421 .794
2003 NYY 119 482 87 156 25 3 10 52 43 88 11 5 .324 .393 .450 .844
2004 NYY 154 643 111 188 44 1 23 78 46 99 23 4 .292 .352 .471 .823
2005 NYY 159 654 122 202 25 5 19 70 77 117 14 5 .309 .389 .450 .839
2006 NYY 154 623 118 214 39 3 14 97 69 102 34 5 .344 .417 .483 .900
2007 NYY 156 639 102 206 39 4 12 73 56 100 15 8 .322 .388 .452 .840
2008 NYY 150 596 88 179 25 3 11 69 52 85 11 5 .300 .363 .408 .771
2009 NYY 153 634 107 212 27 1 18 66 72 90 30 5 .334 .406 .465 .871
2010 NYY 10 46 8 16 2 0 2 7 1 5 2 0 .348 .375 .522 .897
Career 2148 8705 1582 2763 440 58 226 1075 886 1471 307 80 .317 .388 .459 .847



While I understand what you are saying Mass1926 the thing about Ripken is he played the majority of his career in Memorial Park in Baltimore. Yankee Stadium makes Memorial Park look like the Grand Canyon. Plus Ripken played when there was was a lot less teams so the pitching wasn't as watered down.

Jeter plays in a day where he has benefited from four expansion teams joining the league. As a result pitching is worst than it was 15 to 25 years ago. Now, while I agree he is a very good player...Jeter has benefitted from a small ballpark and bad pitching. There aren't many, Nolan Ryans, Tom Seavers, Steve Carltons and so on that Ripken had to face. Yeah...Jeter faced some good pitchers like Randy Johnson and Justin Verlander and Johan Santana but there are not enough of those guys in the league.

Is Jeter a Hall of Famer? Absolutely! Definately first ballot. Is he one of the greatest of all time? No, he is not! To put him as one ofthe greatest of all time
means you have to put him up there with Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Honus Wagner, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williiams, Nolan Ryan, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Ralph Kiner, Hank Greenberg, Carl Hubbell, Christy Mathewson, Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Warren Spahn, Yogi Berra, Frankie Frisch, Joe " Ducky " Medwick, Tony Lazzeri, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Ernie Banks, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt, Lou Brock, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Jimm Foxx, Robin Roberts, Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline. And that is without looking anybody up.

You can't put Jeter up among those guys. He has been a fortunate player throughout his career and he has been blessed with great healthy. He is certainly deserving of the Hall of Fame. But among the greatest of all time? Not even close!

 

[Cy/MiG]

Is Jeter a Hall of Famer? Absolutely! Definately first ballot. Is he one of the greatest of all time? No, he is not! To put him as one ofthe greatest of all time
means you have to put him up there with Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Honus Wagner, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williiams, Nolan Ryan, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Ralph Kiner, Hank Greenberg, Carl Hubbell, Christy Mathewson, Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Warren Spahn, Yogi Berra, Frankie Frisch, Joe " Ducky " Medwick, Tony Lazzeri, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Ernie Banks, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt, Lou Brock, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Jimm Foxx, Robin Roberts, Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline. And that is without looking anybody up.

You can't put Jeter up among those guys. He has been a fortunate player throughout his career and he has been blessed with great healthy. He is certainly deserving of the Hall of Fame. But among the greatest of all time? Not even close!

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

Oh yea? Who? Guy hits 300+ and usually gets 200 or more hits a season. Name as many players in the league that match that each year for the past 5 years or so. Maybe like a handful at best, and I don't know if any of them play shortstop. So you're telling me that Wade Boggs isn't one of the greatest hitters of the game and he's easily forgotten? Because Jeter is basically Wade Boggs with hit totals and average. Everyone knows that Wade Boggs was a clutch hitter who could beat you as often if not more than the great power hitters of his time. A home run hitter isn't always the greatest hitter of his era. The players that get key hits in key situations, and can hit .300 every season conisistently are just as dangerous if not more so.


After checking it out, he is going to be just the 27 or 28th player in history to have 3000 or more hits in his career, and his career batting average as of now is about .314. So, either you are unaware of just how good his numbers are, or you are just one of the many who refuse to admit that he is among the greatest to have ever played the game. Are you gonna tell me that Jeter doesn't have the same caliber as Cal Ripken Jr, who only had a career batting average of .276? Jeter didn't always have A-Rod in his line-up either. For the better part of his career their pop guy was Bernie Williams.

As for not contributing much to his team as other players on other teams; Are you serious? Ah, he's referred to as the new Mr. October because he's clutch in the post-season. But yea, you're right, he doesnt do as much for his team as other players do for their teams. All-time playoff hit leader, contributes to a team making the post-season almost every year of his career, and then standing out in the spotlight when they get there. Buddy, you did not give him a fair judgment, you simply argued that because he's not a 40 home-run hitter like the Big Hurt was that he's not a big time player of his era. Ah, the Big Hurt took a Big Fall by his early 30's and virtually fell off the map while Jeter is 35 going on 36 and still posting .300 + averages each year, and around 200 hits per season.

Year Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1995 NYY 15 48 5 12 4 1 0 7 3 11 0 0 .250 .294 .375 .669
1996 NYY 157 582 104 183 25 6 10 78 48 102 14 7 .314 .370 .430 .800
1997 NYY 159 654 116 190 31 7 10 70 74 125 23 12 .291 .370 .405 .775
1998 NYY 149 626 127 203 25 8 19 84 57 119 30 6 .324 .384 .481 .864
1999 NYY 158 627 134 219 37 9 24 102 91 116 19 8 .349 .438 .552 .989
2000 NYY 148 593 119 201 31 4 15 73 68 99 22 4 .339 .416 .481 .896
2001 NYY 150 614 110 191 35 3 21 74 56 99 27 3 .311 .377 .480 .858
2002 NYY 157 644 124 191 26 0 18 75 73 114 32 3 .297 .373 .421 .794
2003 NYY 119 482 87 156 25 3 10 52 43 88 11 5 .324 .393 .450 .844
2004 NYY 154 643 111 188 44 1 23 78 46 99 23 4 .292 .352 .471 .823
2005 NYY 159 654 122 202 25 5 19 70 77 117 14 5 .309 .389 .450 .839
2006 NYY 154 623 118 214 39 3 14 97 69 102 34 5 .344 .417 .483 .900
2007 NYY 156 639 102 206 39 4 12 73 56 100 15 8 .322 .388 .452 .840
2008 NYY 150 596 88 179 25 3 11 69 52 85 11 5 .300 .363 .408 .771
2009 NYY 153 634 107 212 27 1 18 66 72 90 30 5 .334 .406 .465 .871
2010 NYY 10 46 8 16 2 0 2 7 1 5 2 0 .348 .375 .522 .897
Career 2148 8705 1582 2763 440 58 226 1075 886 1471 307 80 .317 .388 .459 .847



While I understand what you are saying Mass1926 the thing about Ripken is he played the majority of his career in Memorial Park in Baltimore. Yankee Stadium makes Memorial Park look like the Grand Canyon. Plus Ripken played when there was was a lot less teams so the pitching wasn't as watered down.

Jeter plays in a day where he has benefited from four expansion teams joining the league. As a result pitching is worst than it was 15 to 25 years ago. Now, while I agree he is a very good player...Jeter has benefitted from a small ballpark and bad pitching. There aren't many, Nolan Ryans, Tom Seavers, Steve Carltons and so on that Ripken had to face. Yeah...Jeter faced some good pitchers like Randy Johnson and Justin Verlander and Johan Santana but there are not enough of those guys in the league.

Is Jeter a Hall of Famer? Absolutely! Definately first ballot. Is he one of the greatest of all time? No, he is not! To put him as one ofthe greatest of all time
means you have to put him up there with Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Honus Wagner, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williiams, Nolan Ryan, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Ralph Kiner, Hank Greenberg, Carl Hubbell, Christy Mathewson, Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Warren Spahn, Yogi Berra, Frankie Frisch, Joe " Ducky " Medwick, Tony Lazzeri, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Ernie Banks, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt, Lou Brock, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Jimm Foxx, Robin Roberts, Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline. And that is without looking anybody up.

You can't put Jeter up among those guys. He has been a fortunate player throughout his career and he has been blessed with great healthy. He is certainly deserving of the Hall of Fame. But among the greatest of all time? Not even close![/QUOTE]






Sorry my good friend put I disagree with you on this matter. I do believe Jeter is one of the all-time greats .

You always have said that elite players have to win championships . 4 World Series Championships I believe shall surfice.

And that a true elite player must produce at key moments and in the biggest games. I believe he has done that in spades.

As far as I`m concerned Jeter is the poster-boy for your guidelines of a true all-time great



Other than helping to erect the new stadium; I don`t what more the guy could have done

 

[Cy/MiG]

You always have said that elite players have to win championships . 4 World Series Championships I believe shall surfice.

Isn't that a skewed statistic?

Since 1993 (and not including the strike years), the Yankees have won less than 90 games only THREE times... From 1995-2009 they made the playoffs every year except ONCE (an 89 win effort in 2008). Their win PCT has been .540 or better every year since 1993 as well. In addition, their payroll has been $100,000,000 (or more) every year since then. Coincidence much???

If every team spent $100 million then they, too, would probably win 85+ games every year and make the playoffs every year and have a player who had big postseason stats and won a slew of championships. Right?

Therefore, Jeter's championships, while earned, are no indication that he was a better player than Nomar, Tejada or Barry Larkin. All it means is that he was on a team that paid top dollar to win at all costs (unlike his poor contemparies who were stuck on teams that built their teams the 'old fashioned way').

And that a true elite player must produce at key moments and in the biggest games. I believe he has done that in spades.

As previously stated, he's also had more opportunity's than just about any other player, especially any player since 1980.

Other than the Atlanta Braves, there is no other team that can boast such skewed postseason statistics as the Yankees.

So while he did accumulate said statistics, it says just as much, if not more about TEAM success than it does about said INDIVIDUALS success.

Would Derek Jeter have been a 'clutch' and prolific postseason player if he played for the Expos/Nationals his whole Career?

With a player like Jeter, it is hard to gauge his true talent because he played on such great TEAMS. His indivual talents are obvious, but uncertain in terms of translation to playing 16 seasons away Yankee Stadium.

Personally, I think players who perform on a extremely high level (like A-Rod in Texas, Vlady in Montreal and/or Ichiro in Seattle) is a better indication of transcendant talent.

Now, none of this means Jeter is not great and not an automatic (lock) Hall of Famer. All it means is that if one steps back and takes a deep breath, they can see through the fog and realize that much of Jeter's success is directly related to the team he played for and therefore probably [however slightly] skewed.

Fact of this is his low 'Black Ink' numbers, which are usually 1/2 of many other players who played during his era.

v/r

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

Isn't that a skewed statistic?

Since 1993 (and not including the strike years), the Yankees have won less than 90 games only THREE times... From 1995-2009 they made the playoffs every year except ONCE (an 89 win effort in 2008). Their win PCT has been .540 or better every year since 1993 as well. In addition, their payroll has been $100,000,000 (or more) every year since then. Coincidence much???

If every team spent $100 million then they, too, would probably win 85+ games every year and make the playoffs every year and have a player who had big postseason stats and won a slew of championships. Right?

Therefore, Jeter's championships, while earned, are no indication that he was a better player than Nomar, Tejada or Barry Larkin. All it means is that he was on a team that paid top dollar to win at all costs (unlike his poor contemparies who were stuck on teams that built their teams the 'old fashioned way').



As previously stated, he's also had more opportunity's than just about any other player, especially any player since 1980.

Other than the Atlanta Braves, there is no other team that can boast such skewed postseason statistics as the Yankees.

So while he did accumulate said statistics, it says just as much, if not more about TEAM success than it does about said INDIVIDUALS success.

Would Derek Jeter have been a 'clutch' and prolific postseason player if he played for the Expos/Nationals his whole Career?

With a player like Jeter, it is hard to gauge his true talent because he played on such great TEAMS. His indivual talents are obvious, but uncertain in terms of translation to playing 16 seasons away Yankee Stadium.

Personally, I think players who perform on a extremely high level (like A-Rod in Texas, Vlady in Montreal and/or Ichiro in Seattle) is a better indication of transcendant talent.

Now, none of this means Jeter is not great and not an automatic (lock) Hall of Famer. All it means is that if one steps back and takes a deep breath, they can see through the fog and realize that much of Jeter's success is directly related to the team he played for and therefore probably [however slightly] skewed.

Fact of this is his low 'Black Ink' numbers, which are usually 1/2 of many other players who played during his era.

v/r

A guy being clutch in baseball while had at bat has little to do with payroll . He can either deliver or not . It is basically a one-on-one matchup against the pitcher until the ball is actually put in play.

Wow , how could you use an example of A-rod in baseball?

He was juicing bigtime during that period and the talent around him was far from mediocre. that lineup featured . Juan Gonzalez, Pudge , and Palmeiro


The way I see it , is that people are too critical of Jeter and others players of his stature . They are trapped by their own successes they have achieved.

The only knock on Jeter nowadays is he has limited range and is a average defensive SS .

 

[Cy/MiG]

A guy being clutch in baseball while had at bat has little to do with payroll . He can either deliver or not . It is basically a one-on-one matchup against the pitcher until the ball is actually put in play.

The number of championships won by and [some of] the players statistics are directly dependent on payroll.

From 1996-present (Jeter's time w/ the Yanks), it is virtual fact that the Yankees have had the highest payroll every year. Coincidentally, here are the years that they rank in the top-5 of runs scored Year/(rank):

97 (2), 98 (1), 99 (3), 01 (5), 02 (1), 03 (3), 04 (2), 05 (2), 06 (1), 07 (1), 09, (1)

So only three years have the Yanks finished outside the top-5 of Runs scored (while having the leagues top payroll).

This clearly effects Jeter's stats. How many other players get to play for a team w/ the leagues highest payroll 10-14 straight years and top-5 in runs scored 11/14 years of their career?

And while it is true that Jeter contributed to such a great offense, it stands to reason that he benefited more from playing with such a great offense (team) more than he is the reason for it.

Prime example of this is that both Nomar and Miguel Tejada have higher WARP than Jeter from 1999-2003 (prime years for all three between the ages of 25-29). And when he played for Texas, A-Rod's WARP smashed Jeter.

Wow , how could you use an example of A-rod in baseball?

He was juicing bigtime during that period and the talent around him was far from mediocre. that lineup featured . Juan Gonzalez, Pudge , and Palmeiro

Juan Gone was washed up by the time he returned to Texas. Raffy was the only other Ranger to hit 100+ RBI's during A-Rods tenure w/ the Rangers.

Why do you think their Win totals in A-Rods three years were: 73, 72, 71...?

Without A-Rod their win-totals would have been abysmal.

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

The number of championships won by and [some of] the players statistics are directly dependent on payroll.

From 1996-present (Jeter's time w/ the Yanks), it is virtual fact that the Yankees have had the highest payroll every year. Coincidentally, here are the years that they rank in the top-5 of runs scored Year/(rank):

97 (2), 98 (1), 99 (3), 01 (5), 02 (1), 03 (3), 04 (2), 05 (2), 06 (1), 07 (1), 09, (1)

So only three years have the Yanks finished outside the top-5 of Runs scored (while having the leagues top payroll).

This clearly effects Jeter's stats. How many other players get to play for a team w/ the leagues highest payroll 10-14 straight years and top-5 in runs scored 11/14 years of their career?

And while it is true that Jeter contributed to such a great offense, it stands to reason that he benefited more from playing with such a great offense (team) more than he is the reason for it.

Prime example of this is that both Nomar and Miguel Tejada have higher WARP than Jeter from 1999-2003 (prime years for all three between the ages of 25-29). And when he played for Texas, A-Rod's WARP smashed Jeter.



Juan Gone was washed up by the time he returned to Texas. Raffy was the only other Ranger to hit 100+ RBI's during A-Rods tenure w/ the Rangers.

Why do you think their Win totals in A-Rods three years were: 73, 72, 71...?

Without A-Rod their win-totals would have been abysmal.

Because the Rangers starting pitching has been awful since they moved from Washington .

I had season tickets for over a decade for the rangers , so no offense; I probably saw a few more games than you did.


Tell me this...

If money spent is the only reason teams win then what has happened to the washington Redskins and New York Knicks. Those two franchises have had the highest payrolls in the last few seasons.

 

[Cy/MiG]

Because the Rangers starting pitching has been awful since they moved from Washington .

I had season tickets for over a decade for the rangers , so no offense; I probably saw a few more games than you did.

No doubt. But if I recall, The Rangers were starting the likes of Ricky Ledee and Shane Spencer. So they're hitting was pretty bad, too.

Tell me this...

If money spent is the only reason teams win then what has happened to the washington Redskins and New York Knicks. Those two franchises have had the highest payrolls in the last few seasons.

Easy:

1. SALARY CAP
2. They're entirely different sports.
3. Washington and NY spent their money unwisely (Allan Houston and Jerome James anyone???)
4. Neither team you mention draft particularly well (both trade picks and waste money on Free Agents... see #3)

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

No doubt. But if I recall, The Rangers were starting the likes of Ricky Ledee and Shane Spencer. So they're hitting was pretty bad, too.



Easy:

1. SALARY CAP
2. They're entirely different sports.
3. Washington and NY spent their money unwisely (Allan Houston and Jerome James anyone???)
4. Neither team you mention draft particularly well (both trade picks and waste money on Free Agents... see #3)

The Rangers have continually been considered one of the best offensive teams in the league since they have moved into the Rangers Ballpark in 1994 .




Ricky Ledee had a whopping 242 abs and shane spencer had a mammoth 181 abs for the rangers. Both guys were filling in for injured starters

SEE ABOVE

you say washington and Knicks have used there money unwisely. So having the most money doesn`t always equate to a good team.

I myself do agree that Yankees have a monetary advantage but that doesn`t always mean the product they put on the field is the best. If that was the case the yankees would be champions every year.

The point I am making is Jeter is one of the best ever. He was born with the ability to play baseball like few others can and the Yankees didn`t buy that god given ability for him.

 

[Cy/MiG]

I myself do agree that Yankees have a monetary advantage but that doesn`t always mean the product they put on the field is the best. If that was the case the yankees would be champions every year.

From 1996-2001 they went to five World Series' and won four. They've made the playoffs 14 of 15 years. So...

The point I am making is Jeter is one of the best ever. He was born with the ability to play baseball like few others can and the Yankees didn`t buy that god given ability for him.

True, but they bought the supporting case which helped him acheive such [prolonged statistical] greatness and win five World Series'.

Which is why I pointed out WARP two posts prior. Jeter's WARP was significantly lower than his counterparts during their primes (1999-2003), which shows that while he is/was good (and still is), his success did not exactly translate to his teams success as much as the other way around.

 

[Cy/MiG]

I personally think that Jeter just took a little longer to take off. He didn't really become a consistent .300 guy until he was around 30, and for some reason has gotten better with age unlike most other players. I think it could be that he finally learned to just go with the pitch and shorten his swing up more. He has always gone the other way, but he rarely pulls at all now which is why I think when he finally learned to perfect the inside-out swing his career jolted.

Jeter's always been a good/great hitter. In fact, for all statistical purposes, he is equal to or arguably better than Cal Ripken Jr.:

Cal Ripken Batting Stats for Years 1982 to 1996
Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1982-1996 BAL 2358 10289 9178 1365 2544 487 43 353 1369 35 34 959 1025 .277 .345 .455 .800 117 4176 279 49 4 99 100
Average 157 686 612 91 170 32 3 24 91 2 2 64 68 278 19 3 0 7 7
per 162 games 163 710 634 95 176 34 3 25 95 3 3 67 71 289 20 4 1 7 7

Derek Jeter Batting Stats for Years 1996 to 2009
Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1996-2009 NYY 2123 9758 8611 1569 2735 434 57 224 1061 305 80 882 1455 .318 .388 .459 .848 121 3955 213 143 78 44 33
Average 152 697 615 112 195 31 4 16 76 22 6 63 104 282 15 10 6 3 2
per 162 games 162 742 655 120 208 33 5 18 81 24 7 68 111 301 17 11 6 4 3

However, he is by no stretch of the imagination far superior to Cal on the whole and raelly only gets more publicity because he plays for the Yankees.

That's all I'm saying. Jeter is overrated because of the team(s) he has played on.

For all intents and purposes, he is equal to Cal Ripken Jr. (only with less power, more speed and better BA)

If you rank him by his teams success, then he is probably the best SS ever. If you rank him by statistical analysis and by individual achievement, he is still top-10-15, but arguably not top-5.

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

From 1996-2001 they went to five World Series' and won four. They've made the playoffs 14 of 15 years. So...



True, but they bought the supporting case which helped him acheive such [prolonged statistical] greatness and win five World Series'.

Which is why I pointed out WARP two posts prior. Jeter's WARP was significantly lower than his counterparts during their primes (1999-2003), which shows that while he is/was good (and still is), his success did not exactly translate to his teams success as much as the other way around.

And from 2002-2008 they didn`t win the Series . and from 1979 -1995 they didn`t win any World Series either. so ...

wow...1996 is the 1st year Jeter was a full-time player and COINCIDENTLY that was the first year the Yankees went on their World Series run. I am sure the correlation of Championships and Jeter becoming a starter and clutch player had ZERO impact on 4 championships in five years

Thanks for pointing that out by the way

 

[Dave Pavet]

I have grown to love Jeter, consistent, runs EVERYTHING out, leads by example and one of the greatest captains in the history of sport! A ton of intangible qualities that exceed fantasy league stats! First ballot Hall of Famer!... I would take him over most of the greats mentioned in this post if I were starting a TEAM!.. Over Boggs, Medwick, Kiner (my father's favorite ballplayer) Roberts and Stargell... Not over Cobb, Ruth, Mays, Mantle and Aaron... Yes I am aware that Medwick was the last in the NL to win a triple crown.

 

[Cy/MiG]

And from 2002-2008 they didn`t win the Series . and from 1979 -1995 they didn`t win any World Series either. so ...

wow...1996 is the 1st year Jeter was a full-time player and COINCIDENTLY that was the first year the Yankees went on their World Series run. I am sure the correlation of Championships and Jeter becoming a starter and clutch player had ZERO impact on 4 championships in five years

Thanks for pointing that out by the way

I hope you're kidding.

Because 1996 was also the year after the Yanks got rid of Donny Baseball, when Mariano became a bullpen regular and the 2nd year that they started spending $$$ on big name free agents like:

Paul O'Neill, Wade Boggs, Cecil Fielder, John Wetteland, Tino Martinez, Jeff Nelson, David Cone, Ruben Sierra, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kenny Rogers... (and later established players like Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, David Wells, Mike Stanton, Chili Davis, Roger Clemens, David Justice, Denny Neagle and Mike Mussina)

Also the first year of a coach named Torre... hmm...

A $urplus in $pending and $lew of new veteran players and coaches that led to a Championship run...

Coincidence much?

Less to do with Jeter, more to do with TEAM, MANAGEMENT and OWNERSHIP (strategy)

So who do you think had a bigger impact on the Yankees Championship Run(s)?

One Derek Jeter or the 20+ Free Agents that I listed whom the Yankees signed from 1993-2001?

 

[grizzly adams]

I hope you're kidding.

Because 1996 was also the year after the Yanks got rid of Donny Baseball, when Mariano became a bullpen regular and the 2nd year that they started spending $$$ on big name free agents like:

Paul O'Neill, Wade Boggs, Cecil Fielder, John Wetteland, Tino Martinez, Jeff Nelson, David Cone, Ruben Sierra, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kenny Rogers... (and later established players like Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, David Wells, Mike Stanton, Chili Davis, Roger Clemens, David Justice, Denny Neagle and Mike Mussina)

Also the first year of a coach named Torre... hmm...

A $urplus in $pending and $lew of new veteran players and coaches that led to a Championship run...

Coincidence much?

Less to do with Jeter, more to do with TEAM, MANAGEMENT and OWNERSHIP (strategy)

So who do you think had a bigger impact on the Yankees Championship Run(s)?

One Derek Jeter or the 20+ Free Agents that I listed whom the Yankees signed from 1993-2001?

blah blah blah

Be a man and admit when you are wrong. These new half-assed statistics you throw out are for people who have too much time on there hands. Its baseball not a math class

 

[Cy/MiG]

blah blah blah

Be a man and admit when you are wrong. These new half-assed statistics you throw out are for people who have too much time on there hands. Its baseball not a math class

What a great rebuttal. 'Stats don't matter in a game like basebal! Things like Batting average, OBP, OPS, HR, RBI, Runs, Total bases, VORP, WARP, and Strikeouts which prove player efficiency have no bearing! Derek Jeter is the best because he hosted SNL, did some Gatorade and Gillette ads and is nailing Minka Kelly. And most of all because I say so...'

So... you're trying to say that the Yankees haven't signed a ton of top-tier free agents and haven't had the highest payroll of all teams since 1994, which hasn't postively affected both the win-loss record and stats for guys like Jeter?

Or are you trying to say that Jeter (in his prime or overall) hit more HR's and RBI's with a higher OPS (and had a higher WARP) than counterparts Tejada, Nomar and A-Rod?

Or perhaps that all of his stats are still far greater on the whole than of many other great SS's (like Ernie Banks, Robin Yount, Cal or Larkin)?

Because all three of those things are terribly untrue.

There is no individual statistical reason that can prove that Jeter is better than any other great SS. The bottom line is that Jeter is a far cry from Honus Wagner, so deal with it.

The ONLY thing that separates Jeter from his equal or better statistical counterparts @ SS is # of championships, which is a terribly skewed stat in his favor (thanks to the team he played for).

If one cannot see that, then I question not only their baseball knowledge, but their common sense.