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Does faith have a place in America?

mabus

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One Nation, Enriched by Biblical Wisdom
By DAVID BROOKS

Published: March 23, 2004

Tomorrow the Supreme Court will hear arguments about whether it is constitutional for public school teachers to lead the Pledge of Allegiance, including the phrase "one nation under God," in their classrooms. So tonight's reading assignment is "A Stone of Hope" by David L. Chappell.

"A Stone of Hope" is actually a history of the civil rights movement, but it's impossible to read the book without doing some fundamental rethinking about the role religion can play in schools and public life.

According to Chappell, there were actually two camps within the civil rights movement. First, there were the mainstream liberals, often white and Northern. These writers and activists tended to have an optimistic view of human nature. Because racism so fundamentally contradicted the American creed, they felt, it would merely take a combination of education, economic development and consciousness-raising to bring out the better angels in people's nature.

The second group, which we might today call the religious left, was mostly black and Southern. Its leaders, including Martin Luther King Jr., drew sustenance from a prophetic religious tradition, and took a much darker view of human nature.

King wrote an important essay on Jeremiah, the "rebel prophet" who saw that his nation was in moral decline. King later reminded readers that human beings are capable of "calculated cruelty as no other animal can practice." He and the other leaders in the movement did not believe that education and economic development would fully bring justice, but believed it would take something as strong as a religious upsurge. Because the experiences of the Hebrew prophets had taught them to be pessimistic about humanity, the civil rights leaders knew they had to be spiritually aggressive if they wanted to get anything done.

Chappell argues that the civil rights movement was not a political movement with a religious element. It was a religious movement with a political element.

If you believe that the separation of church and state means that people should not bring their religious values into politics, then, if Chappell is right, you have to say goodbye to the civil rights movement. It would not have succeeded as a secular force.

But the more interesting phenomenon limned in Chappell's book is this: King had a more accurate view of political realities than his more secular liberal allies because he could draw on biblical wisdom about human nature. Religion didn't just make civil rights leaders stronger — it made them smarter.

Whether you believe in God or not, the Bible and commentaries on the Bible can be read as instructions about what human beings are like and how they are likely to behave. Moreover, this biblical wisdom is deeper and more accurate than the wisdom offered by the secular social sciences, which often treat human beings as soulless utility-maximizers, or as members of this or that demographic group or class.

Whether the topic is welfare, education, the regulation of biotechnology or even the war on terrorism, biblical wisdom may offer something that secular thinking does not — not pat answers, but a way to think about things.

For example, it's been painful to watch thoroughly secularized Europeans try to grapple with Al Qaeda. The bombers declare, "You want life, and we want death"— a (fanatical) religious statement par excellence. But thoroughly secularized listeners lack the mental equipment to even begin to understand that statement. They struggle desperately to convert Al Qaeda into a political phenomenon: the bombers must be expressing some grievance. This is the path to permanent bewilderment.

The lesson I draw from all this is that prayer should not be permitted in public schools, but maybe theology should be mandatory. Students should be introduced to the prophets, to the Old and New Testaments, to the Koran, to a few of the commentators who argue about these texts.

From this perspective, what gets recited in the pledge is the least important issue before us. Understanding what the phrase "one nation under God" might mean — that's the important thing. That's not proselytizing; it's citizenship.
 
oh good grief! our founding fathers are turning in their graves! they appealed to and mentioned God in everything they did.
 
The phrase "one nation, under God" is wrong. First of all, not everyone believes in God. Second, does this mean other religions (buddhism, etc.) are not part of our country? The nazi-like tactics by modern christians to have religion permeate everything and everyone makes me sick.

Religion should be taken back to where it started, and rightfully, belongs...in church. If you want religion in school, you have always had the choice to attend a parochial school, like I did. Otherwise, stop forcing non-believers to kneel before your god and beliefs.

The Sean Man
 
With a world filled with war, poverty, and disease, he's gonna take time out to strike ME down? Plllllleeeease. Save the fairy tales and wrath of God stuff for the small, gullible kids at sunday school.

The Sean Man
 
Yes, be afraid. You will be taught to be afraid through all the bible tales you'll hear. Through fear comes control, and that's how you program...cough cough, er... "teach" children the word.

The Sean Man
 
While I don't believe in the bible or God, I respect that the United States was built on these beliefs, and that is the way it has always been. I don't expect it to change just because the cranky minority thinks that it should change just because they don't like it. Don't like it? Either get over it or move the fuck out of the country. I tire of hearing people piss and moan about this. I'd love to run into the guy who tried to get it taken out of the pledge. What makes him think that he has the right to change tradition? What makes him think that just because him and a very, very small amount of Americans don't like it, that that means the goverment should change it just for them. Who the fuck does he think he is? I think the guy needs to drown in his own blood, myself. Ah well. :sowrong: ...give it up, people. You have no power and no say, and it's not going to change just because it "forces" you to kneel before God....lmfao. 🙄 ...want it to change? move, or build your own fuckin' country. Don't ty and make everyone else pay just because your ass doesn't think it's "right".

(post wasn't really directed at anyone, just a general statement)
 
You're right...follow our god or leave the country. Oh mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

And this country wasn't founded on those beliefs. Remember the native americans? Oh, that's right...they were SAVAGE HEATHENS who worshipped PAGAN gods. Good thing we forced them off their land, and claimed it for ourselves.

We left Europe because for religious freedom, among many things. And look where we are now......:sowrong:

The Sean Man
 
you act as though the "under god" phrase forces you to follow god. Gimme a fucking break. Just don't say it. And if you do, big deal, you know you don't mean it, or believe it. Save the drama for peopl who care. Cause the average Amercian couldn't care less. Yea, we screwed over the indians, but when we built this country, it WAS built on christian beliefs. Just be happy that you have the freedom to think whatever you want.
 
You're right....just like the romans didn't care about the drama of the christians. Oh, I'm sorry...forgot I was on a one-way street in this country.

The Sean Man
 
Oh boo-hoo. If it's so bad, just pack on up and leave son, cause it aint' gonna change, and you know it. 🙄
 
"I think the guy needs to drown in his own blood"..........learn that in Sunday school, did you?

Okay...I'll bow to your God, as long as you promise me you won't burn a number into my forearm.

The Sean Man
 
for one thing, I don't believe in God or the bible. I have many issues with the bible. For one, I am gay. I'll burn in hell for all of eternity, according to the bible.🙄 Learn to read. Secondly, I hate people who think they have the right to change something that has been here since the start of this nation. This nation was built on christian puritan beliefs. I don't agree with it, and I don't have to. Thats the great thing about this country. We can think and believe whatever we want. HOWEVER, I refuse to think that just because myself and a small, small amount of americans don't think it's right, that it should be removed. Oh, and yea, I'd love to beat the guy into the ground and watch him gargle his own blood. He is an asshole prick, and anyone who has seen this guy or watched him on tv knows that.
 
I was in religious instruction for the first seventeen years of my life, in preparation for spreading the word of god to others for the rest of my life.

Going to hell for being gay is crap. It started with televangelists, and now even you are believing it. God loves his followers, and has a place for you in heaven, gay or not.

My whole point is that if you're bringing religion into every school or government builing, you must give equal time to other religions or deities.

The Sean Man
 
Ok. I don't believe that I'll burn in hell. Because I don't believe period. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I agrre with everything you just said. I agree that all religions should be given a chance, so that kids and people can choose what they want to believe more effectively. I just don't think that it is right to take that phrase out of our pledge, I think that would be taking a step backwards. I've said my piece, and I respect your opinion. I just happen to love expressing my opinions in the most intense manner sometimes. And today is one of those days, lol. No hard feelins'. 😀 😉
 
sean -

no-one said anything about gays going to hell. what made you bring that up?
 
the_Baron said:
sean -

no-one said anything about gays going to hell. what made you bring that up?

I mentioned it in my post. You probably just missed it. 😉
 
Fair enough, Krokus. Didn't mean for this to turn ugly.

The topic just gets me a little worked up sometimes. Would you believe that the radio station I work at forbids me from talking about the fact that I no longer am a believer? Ah well..

Still friends?

The Sean Man
 
'choke choke'...gurgle gurgle....hey, this stuff don't taste bad...maybe a dash of tabasco🙂

The Sean Man
 
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