Does faith have a place in America?

[ShadowTklr]

I hate people who think they have the right to change something that has been here since the start of this nation. This nation was built on christian puritan beliefs.

I hope you don't mind the interruption, but I feel compelled to bring something to your attention. The phrase "Under God" was only added to the Pledge of Allegience in 1954, after pressure from the Knights Of Columbus influenced Congress to add it. So, for what its worth, it really hasn't been around since the start of this nation; and neither has the Pledge itself.

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist, not a Christian fundamentalist, or a Puritan.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled bickering. 😎

 

[The Sean Man]

Nah, give peace a chance🙂

Curious though, would the pilgrims have been the puritans?

The Sean Man

 

[the_Baron]

i do believe the pilgrims were puritans.

john wayne just as well could have said: "alright, puritans...."

 

[The Sean Man]

When my sister was in nursing school wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back when, she saw John Wayne walking down the hall during his cancer treatment, butt sticking out of his robe. When my mom asked her what it looked like, she said, "I'ts just another ass, mom."

The Sean Man

 

[Krokus]

Fair enough, Krokus. Didn't mean for this to turn ugly.

The topic just gets me a little worked up sometimes. Would you believe that the radio station I work at forbids me from talking about the fact that I no longer am a believer? Ah well..

Still friends?

The Sean Man

of course buddy. ....Yea, I can believe it. Our freedoms are slowly being taken away, and it sucks.

 

[MrPartickler]

ShadowTklr beat me to it....

Krokus, you can read about the evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance here:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_gov_pledge.htm

Now that you know this person is actually trying to bring the Pledge closer to its original form, will you hail him as a true patriot?

Or is the issue really just the fact that he strongly believes something different than you (or even the majority of Americans) that makes you want to murder him? 🙄

Also, for the record, refusing to participate in these seemingly trivial rituals DOES matter to some. There can be significant external pressure to conform and "play along." Recall the NBA player Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who refused to stand during the singing of the national anthem:

http://www.cavalierdaily.com:2001/.Archives/1996/March/20/edmike.asp

 

[MrMacphisto]

I hope you don't mind the interruption, but I feel compelled to bring something to your attention. The phrase "Under God" was only added to the Pledge of Allegience in 1954, after pressure from the Knights Of Columbus influenced Congress to add it. So, for what its worth, it really hasn't been around since the start of this nation; and neither has the Pledge itself.

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist, not a Christian fundamentalist, or a Puritan.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled bickering. 😎

Finally... someone with an education enters this discussion.... MrPartickler brings up some good points too... While I agree that it is kind of annoying that certain minorities complain about the way things are in this country, I have to pose this question to Krokus, in particular: You're gay... obviously, that makes you a minority. Let's examine what Krokus posted earlier...

"While I don't believe in the bible or God, I respect that the United States was built on these beliefs, and that is the way it has always been. I don't expect it to change just because the cranky minority thinks that it should change just because they don't like it. Don't like it? Either get over it or move the fuck out of the country. I tire of hearing people piss and moan about this. I'd love to run into the guy who tried to get it taken out of the pledge. What makes him think that he has the right to change tradition? What makes him think that just because him and a very, very small amount of Americans don't like it, that that means the goverment should change it just for them. Who the fuck does he think he is? I think the guy needs to drown in his own blood, myself. Ah well. ...give it up, people. You have no power and no say, and it's not going to change just because it "forces" you to kneel before God....lmfao. ...want it to change? move, or build your own fuckin' country. Don't ty and make everyone else pay just because your ass doesn't think it's "right". "

Given this logic, America should basically kick gay people out of the country. I mean, let's think about how many people have a problem with gay people in this country. Does a certain incident a few years ago in Wyoming ring a bell? Krokus, I don't know if you realize this or not, but you're basically sticking up for the same people that discriminate against you. I guess it's no wonder that you're moving to Japan. One thing about Japan, though... They're very xenophobic; they're more tolerant of gay people, but if you're anything other than Japanese, then you're going to be discriminated against there. I suppose you're trading one discrimination for another. This being the case, I guess it makes since that you'd stick up for those who are prejudiced.

 

[The Sean Man]

"Finally...someone with an education enters this discussion"?

Good lord, could you try any harder to pick a fight?

The Sean Man

🙄

 

[Krokus]

I guess they don't have anything better to do. 😀 🙄 😎


-oh and Mr. Mac....I have been to Japan many, many many times. What you have said is utter bullshit. There is no other people that are as welcoming and accepting as the Japanese, trust me, I know.

As for the rest of your rant, I don't really care.

 

[Krokus]

Re: ShadowTklr beat me to it....

Krokus, you can read about the evolution of the Pledge of Allegiance here:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_gov_pledge.htm

Now that you know this person is actually trying to bring the Pledge closer to its original form, will you hail him as a true patriot?

Or is the issue really just the fact that he strongly believes something different than you (or even the majority of Americans) that makes you want to murder him? 🙄

Also, for the record, refusing to participate in these seemingly trivial rituals DOES matter to some. There can be significant external pressure to conform and "play along." Recall the NBA player Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who refused to stand during the singing of the national anthem:

http://www.cavalierdaily.com:2001/.Archives/1996/March/20/edmike.asp

I can't clarify this enough. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS A GOD. I could care less if he is a patriot. I am moving from this country soon enough. Just let it be for christ sake. The bottom line is that nobody is forced to believe, or forced to partake in the "rituals". Quite frankly, I don't care what you think or what you have to say. You can complain all you want, but the bottom line is that it isn't going to change, just accept it. I did a long time ago. I was sticking up for peoples right to believe whatever they want. Whether or not the pledge says "Under God" or not....people still have the right to do so. I just don't see what the big deal is about the whole thing.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Sean... I wasn't really aiming what I said at you... I actually agree with most of what you said...

Utter bullshit, eh? Well, Krokus, I have a roommate who lived there for a year, and he experienced quite a bit of discrimination while living there for being white. The Japanese, according to him, are polite but like to talk about you behind your back. It makes sense, considering their history. This is a culture that barely teaches its children that their society raped the Manchurians during WWII and that they treated their prisoners of war worse than anyone else. Do the Okinawa death marches mean anything to you? Granted, they are a different society now than they were back then, but I wouldn't exactly call them "accepting."

It's your freedom not to care about the rest of my rant, but I suppose your trip to Japan should come pretty soon if gay discrimination in the U.S. isn't an important issue to you.

 

[Krokus]

I have never had any problems in my time in Japan. I speak the language though, so maybe that has something to do with it. I have already spoken my piece on gay rights in other threads, and im not about to state it all again here, because I don't feel like it. I feel fine with my rights. Nobody bothers me whn I am out with my guy. Nobody bothers us when we hook up, nobody bothers me anywhere. I am perfectly happy with my current situation, and thats all that matters to me. I have no interest in becoming an activist.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Fair enough... But my roommate also speaks the language... Does "Gaijin" sound familiar to you? I believe it's the word they use to describe all Westerners... They have some other word to describe Westerners that speak the language... it's "geiko-gaijin" or something like that. Of course, many cultures in Europe are also generally xenophobic, like France.

 

[Synful Pryde]

Fair enough... But my roommate also speaks the language... Does "Gaijin" sound familiar to you? I believe it's the word they use to describe all Westerners... They have some other word to describe Westerners that speak the language... it's "geiko-gaijin" or something like that. Of course, many cultures in Europe are also generally xenophobic, like France.

Yes, the word is gaikokujin. The basic meaning is "foreigner". Gaijin is the same word, slightly less formal ("foreign person" instead of "foreign country person"). Does that mean that all of you people who only speak English are xenophobic because you call Spanish and French and Japanese "foreigners"? Get real.

~Syn

P.S. Krokus, do you know where in Japan you will be living? I should be around Kasugai or Nagoya in a year or so.

(Darn, I did "preview" for my post and realised my kanji does not work here. Too bad...)

 

[Krokus]

I'll be in Tokyo for quite awhile, I am staying with a friend until I get my own apartment.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Synful... you have good drawings...

Anyway, the way I'm "getting real" is facing how many cultures (both Eastern and Western) tend to be xenophobic. Although I don't have much pride in America, I have to say that the one thing America is better about than most countries is accepting foreigners. You want proof of this? Let's take a look at immigration policy. Can you name that many other countries that give citizenship to someone if they're born there, despite having parents that aren't citizens? Can you name another country that is as racially and culturally diverse as us? Not many would be able to compete with the mix we have here. However, take a look at Japan: it's basically 95% Japanese people. There's a few million Chinese and Koreans scattered about the country, but that's about it. And if you want a really good determinant of what Japan is like toward foreigners, ask a Chinese or Korean person. I think you'll find that their opinions of the Japanese aren't exactly high.

I'm not saying that I have something against the Japanese. In fact, I have a Japanese family living next door to me. While the mother of the family is very "welcoming and accepting," I would expect no less from a Japanese person. Japanese culture is practically obsessed with politeness; in most ways, I consider this a good thing. What I'm getting at is how they interact on a cultural level with immigrants that aren't just tourists. I know there are many Japanophiles on this forum, but history has never shed a very "accepting" light on their culture. Why else would we prevent them from having their own military for so long? Granted, they have their own military now....

 

[Synful Pryde]

Krokus: Good plan, rent can be hell. 🙂 Best of luck with that!

MrMacphisto: Thanks, the 'good' part is definitely arguable though. 😉

Yes, you're right, America is very diverse culturally and racially. I think this is a good thing, yep. It is pretty neat to be able to step into a city and sometimes see mini-representations of the rest of the world (though I worry that sometimes too much ghetto-isation is happening in the America...).

But with Japan being 95% (actually ~99%) Japanese ... that doesn't necessarily mean they don't like foreigners. South Korea is almost entirely Korean, save several thousand Chinese, and the rest of the statistically insignificant foreigners. This isn't just in East Asia, either. Germany is about 92% of German descent. Italy is almost all Italian. But really, all of this is moot; what does composition have to do with attitude?

A good determinant of Japanese attitude is to ask Korean or Chinese? How many jokes does America have about Canada or France? Yet America is one of the most diverse nations ... 🙂

I'm sorry about the "get real" statement. But really, it sounded as though you were making out Japan as a very discriminatory, foreigner-hating society. Maybe in some places this is true. But honestly, what nation is NOT wary of foreigners? Even some in America are like that. A nation is a nation because of its people.

I guess my point is, I don't think Japan is necessarily more xenophobic than other nations. Even in the past, many East Asian countries are said to have been "isolated". This isn't entirely true of course, but it seems that the image survives even to this day. 🙂

~Syn

P.S. Oh, you mean the Japan Self-Defense Forces? Nice name huh? 😀 That's why it was such a huge issue when the Diet voted on sending non-combat personnel to Iraq. Did you see the melee?? It was crazy!

EDIT: Edited post to include response to MrMacphisto. Also fixed a couple of sentences.

 

[The Sean Man]

Japan Self-Defense Forces? Weren't they wiped out after Godzilla's last attack?

The Sean Man

P.S.- Sorry, couldn't help it