Free Will vs. Predeterminism

[THE THREAD]

I am curious to know how humans view the universe do they think that all actions are predetermined and that nothing can be done to change the inevitable? .....analyzing database.....searching...searching....
ahh yess much like the movie "Slaughterhouse Five" everything according to that movie was predetermined and there is no free will. Do most humans believe in free will? All data will be greatly appreciated.

 

[ShiningIce]

Human life is ruled by both. Fait will only carry you so far, free will will only carry you so far. Together our lives have become the many pathed journeys they are.

 

[asutickler]

Yep. Call it fate, "God's will", or what have you, a great deal of a person's life is determined by random chance and circumstance (pardon the rhyme). Free will comes into play in determining how to respond to the cards you're dealt, so to speak. Nothing is really "predetermined," per se, as a person's response to each situation they encounter significantly affects (but does not necessarily pre-select) the next set of circumstances said person will encounter. Therefore predeterminism and free will are not mutually exclusive. Rather, they interlink in the chain of events that comprise a person's life.

I hope that kinda made sense... I'm really sleepy. 🙂

 

[Texas_Tickle]

I believe very strongly in fate and destiny. I believe that where ever we wind up at, we were destined to, since the start of time.

I do not believe the world is just made up, by chain, after chain, after chain of little more than random coincidences.

 

[General Zod]

Maybe it was fate/destiny/God's will that I broke my ankle on December 27th,2002 or maybe my own stupidity I slipped on ice A little background first I drive tractor trailer in the U.S.,sometimes Canada December 13th I was told to go into Quebec Canada from Maine to pickup a load to Rialto Ca (southern part)
Now my dispatcher said he will find another driver to switch loads with me because I was to take Christmas off in Pennsylvania The load was to deliver in Ca on Dec 18th They couldn't guaruntee I'd be home in time
I thought about keeping the load and taking new years off instead,but I didn't After I broke my ankle I wondered if I would've kept the load,would I still have broken my ankle 2 days after Christmas? Maybe even after new years time off I still would have
Does this make any sense? Im better about talking what I feel rather than writing it down
General Zod

 

[Krokus]

Hm...

I believe in fate....destiny, if you will.

 

[phfttklr]

Personally, I can't believe that my life is planned out like some kind of story book or that I'm a puppet in the grand scheme of life.
I'd like to think that I have some sort of control of my life

I can't believe there is a reason that all the atrocities that befall humankind is planned out ( rape, murder, babies being left in dumpsters to die etc...) I can think of other ways less horrible for someone to "become a stronger person" as most people use for a reason.

Whatever happens in life falls under one category - Sh*t Happens

The more overcrowded the planet becomes, the higher the odds are of
something bad happening.

Me, I'm going through this life with a smile on my face and to try and make others smile as well. One shot. One life. Deal with it the best way you can.😀

This thread gives me the opportunity to once again say, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONTROLLING YOUR OWN FATE! You either believe you have control on the way things happen or you believe in fate.

Whew! Thanks for letting me get that out again, I feel much better.😀
I just know that some sportscaster is going to use that phrase during the playoffs at some point in time again. 🙄

 

[Texas_Tickle]

Personally, I can't believe that my life is planned out like some kind of story book or that I'm a puppet in the grand scheme of life.
I'd like to think that I have some sort of control of my life

I can't believe there is a reason that all the atrocities that befall humankind is planned out ( rape, murder, babies being left in dumpsters to die etc...) I can think of other ways less horrible for someone to "become a stronger person" as most people use for a reason.

Whatever happens in life falls under one category - Sh*t Happens

The more overcrowded the planet becomes, the higher the odds are of
something bad happening.

Me, I'm going through this life with a smile on my face and to try and make others smile as well. One shot. One life. Deal with it the best way you can.😀

This thread gives me the opportunity to once again say, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONTROLLING YOUR OWN FATE! You either believe you have control on the way things happen or you believe in fate.

Whew! Thanks for letting me get that out again, I feel much better.😀
I just know that some sportscaster is going to use that phrase during the playoffs at some point in time again. 🙄

So you think everything in life is determined simply by the roll of the dice?

I like to think there is more to life that that. There are things we cannot see, but just because we cannot see it, does not mean it does not exist.

 

[luv2bt&tickled]

A give for The Thread 😀

This gift is for The Thread, the thread which is not dead but lives, this thread thrives on post after post. So with that being said, I give to this thread a gift, no it isn't red, it isn't Fred it is just a special gift to this THREAD!

 

[Ultratickler]

Free will is a very important concept because it is the basis of the legal system which helps govern society. However, genetics and the environment are responsible for human behavior (percentage of each is debatable). There is no biochemical definition of free will, and it simply does not exist. Like all other physical processes, there is stochasticism (randomness) in behavior, but this is not free will. I would argue that no one has come to this forum or posted here out of free will, but rather because of genetics and environmental factors.

Wow, I'm glad I can use my science degree for something.

 

[Haltickling]

I tend to approach this topic scientifically:

There’s no effect without cause, that much is true. And every effect is highly likely to be a cause for another effect. Now, all people act almost constantly (at least minimally, like breathing), so they cause more effects. The sum of all these effects is a rather random number, so high that we have no chance to calculate all the results, and it’s constantly increasing. It’s unpredictable, many of the results are pure coincidence. That’s fate.

There seems to be a certain order in the sum of all those coincidences, and scientists are only beginning to research what is known as the ‘chaos theory’. The most well known examples are radioactive decay, and of course the weather. Each radioactive element (or isotope) has its own specific rate of decay, but there’s no chance to find out which atom will decay next, or what causes that one special atom to decay. Only the overall amount of decaying atoms is constant, the rest is unpredictable. Fate.

The weather is a huge sum of singular events in the atmosphere, the water, and earth. As ‘chaos scientists’ say, the simple flapping of a butterfly’s wings in China can change the weather in other parts of the world, it can even cause the birth of a hurricane. Again relative unpredictability, although we are able to give rather accurate forecasts for the regional weather, just a few days ahead. It’s some kind of fate.

The only thing we can really influence is the small part of the world we call our life. We are responsible for almost all our actions, even if we don’t always know all their results. Still we could be the next decaying atom in the radioactive example, but we can try to avoid it. In short, that’s what we try do to with our life: Attempt to do one step away from decay, try to survive, and try to be a positive element in the huge calculation called evolution. We can be the butterfly which causes a hurricane, or the one causing a gentle summer breeze, but we don’t know how we have to flap our wings to achieve it. The result: the usual everyday chaos we live in.
(Steps down from the philosophical soapbox and vanishes into the limelight…)

 

[phfttklr]

So you think everything in life is determined simply by the roll of the dice?

I like to think there is more to life that that. There are things we cannot see, but just because we cannot see it, does not mean it does not exist.

Nope, I think for every action there is a reaction and sometimes sh*t happens.

My father worked as a police officer for over 40 years and was forced
out of a job, that he loved, into retirement only to have a stroke and lie in a hospital not being able to see or speak until his death 9 months later at the age of 63.
Meanwhile, a scumbag druglord goes on living a lavish life in a mansion ,somewhere in S.America ,into his golden years. Now,you are going to tell me that this was all planned? Fate? This was MEANT to happen? Sorry, I can't accept that.I'm not looking for sympathy. I know other people have hard lives and maybe even harder ones but for my father's life to end like that, in simple words, just plain sux.

We live. We die. End of story. Sometimes we choose what happens to us and others, sometimes someone else chooses what happens to us and others and again sometimes sh*t happens. Why go looking for some supernatural force or being instead of just accepting it and moving on? Why does there have to be some sort of reason? It's life. It doesn't have to make sense, at least for me it doesn't. Everyone is entitled to their own belief and whatever gets them through the day.

Me, I hope that I'm in control of my actions and that I make the right ones and to keep on tickling😀

Hey! there's a new t-shirt. Like the old t-shirt "Keep On Trucking"
"Keep On Tickling" Ven are you getting this???

 

[omega]

We live. We die. End of story. Sometimes we choose what happens to us and others, sometimes someone else chooses what happens to us and others and again sometimes sh*t happens. Why go looking for some supernatural force or being instead of just accepting it and moving on? Why does there have to be some sort of reason? It's life. It doesn't have to make sense, at least for me it doesn't. Everyone is entitled to their own belief and whatever gets them through the day.

Even Jesus pointed out that sometimes stuff happens. When his disciples asked him why a certain man was blind. Was it because of his sin or his parents sin? Jesus said sin had nothing to do with it. He just was blind. But God could show his glory even to a blind man. Then Jesus brought healing to him. Another time Jesus mentioned people who were killed when a tower fell on them. Jesus plainly lets us know that it was an accident. It did not happen because of sin. (Although if the builder used substandard building material maybe it was a sin. Editorial by omega.)

 

[THE THREAD]

Much information. This makes THE THREAD happy. Thank you very much.....analyzing data.....analyzing....formulating new questions......formulating.....

question set 1) Who is Jesus? Is this the same as Christ? is he important to free will?

question set 2) So if everyone assumed or if it could be proven there is no free will would this undermine the legal system in all countries? Does this go to assuming responsibilty for ones own actions?

Data for the consumption of others...Recent scientific findings would seem to indicate that "free will" is somewhat a figment of the human imagination. That your human brain thinks subconciously what it is going to do and then the concious brain justifies its actions later. It is the concious part that you humans would take as free will. If these findings are correct how does this affect question set 2.

Note this tends to define the question of free will into two parts and raises new questions. Part one...Is the universe as a whole predetermined and our path on it unalterable? Part two...Whether or not the universe is predeterined what is our perception of reality? Even if the universe is not predetermined might the decisions your human brains make be predetermined based soley on genetic and various enviromental factors?

THE THREAD is thinking is universe singular?....are their multiple universes?....need new thread .....more data..

Thank you for your lovely giftluv2bt&tickled it makes me happy.

 

[Bagelfather]

Free Willy vs Determined Marketing Efforts

Free Will:

This is similar to watching a live sporting event. You feel that by cheering for your team you can help make a difference in the game.

Determinism:

This is like watching a game show and cheering on a contestant in hopes they will win, yet the outcome has already been determined. You just don't know what that outcome is yet.

 

[maverick83]

I tend to approach this topic scientifically:

There’s no effect without cause, that much is true. And every effect is highly likely to be a cause for another effect. Now, all people act almost constantly (at least minimally, like breathing), so they cause more effects. The sum of all these effects is a rather random number, so high that we have no chance to calculate all the results, and it’s constantly increasing. It’s unpredictable, many of the results are pure coincidence. That’s fate.

I quoted Hal here, because the beginning of his post pretty well describes how the part of my theory that deals with fate and free will begins. My opinion is that all causes are effects of other causes. This traces back to the initial incident, the first thing that ever happened, whatever you may believe it is. For me, this means the big bang (kind of, though I do seperate myself from that theory, ever so slightly), and that every incident, no matter how insignificant, that has ever occurred, was determined by the specific trajectories of the explosion's debris. Causes ramified exponentially into effects, and continue to do so, creating such a perfect illusion of free will that one may as well forget that all is predetermined. That is my opinion.

 

[THE THREAD]

If all things are indeed predetermined what is the point of existence?

 

[maverick83]

Whoever said existence had to have a point?

 

[Ticklish9's]

If all things are indeed predetermined what is the point of existence?

Good question. Fortunatly, all things are NOT predetermined.

The Big Bang that initiated the universe's existence contained minor fluctuations in it's nature that gave rise to more dense and less dense accumulations of matter and energy as it expanded, which eventually caused stars and galaxys to form in some areas but not others. Although it seems logical to believe that this is a pure cause-effect relationship (matter is here - then stars form here - then planets form here), both chaos theory and Heisenbergs uncertainty principle call for freedom of will - not just allow, but demand it. The universe is not predetermined.

 

[Ticklish9's]

I quoted Hal here, because the beginning of his post pretty well describes how the part of my theory that deals with fate and free will begins. My opinion is that all causes are effects of other causes. This traces back to the initial incident, the first thing that ever happened, whatever you may believe it is. For me, this means the big bang (kind of, though I do seperate myself from that theory, ever so slightly), and that every incident, no matter how insignificant, that has ever occurred, was determined by the specific trajectories of the explosion's debris. Causes ramified exponentially into effects, and continue to do so, creating such a perfect illusion of free will that one may as well forget that all is predetermined. That is my opinion.

That is the stance taken by Stephen Hawking, as well. I, of course, tend to disagree (yes, it's ok to think the smartest man alive is wrong!) 🙂 Let me explain why. Cause and effect are the traditional logical results of a single-direction arrow of time - this event happens, so this event is then caused to happen, which then causes these future events, and so on. However, all such cause-effect relationships are, of necessity, self-referential. The information must be transmitted through time as well for it to be a true cause-effect relationship.
The most common example used for Chaos Theory is the act of rolling dough. When one makes dough, and then drops food colouring in, the specks of food colouring are in one position. When one then rolls the dough, the specks swirl around the dough. One can still, with difficulty, track back and see where they came from. However, if one kneads the dough again, they swirls move again. One can trace them back to their immediatly prior position, but all information regarding their still earlier position(s) is destroyed. This removes the traditional cause effect relationship, because the "Original Cause" isn't really a cause at all. Similar principles apply to weather systems and, I think, the Big Bang.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle works on the microcosmic rather than macrocosmic level, yet it dictates an even greater degree of free will, particularly in a universe (such as ours) which is observer oriented (as per Schroedinger's cat, or the "If a tree falls in the forest" thought experiment). Without information transmission, there can be no cause-effect relationships and, thus, there can be no predetermination.

 

[maverick83]

The most common example used for Chaos Theory is the act of rolling dough. When one makes dough, and then drops food colouring in, the specks of food colouring are in one position. When one then rolls the dough, the specks swirl around the dough. One can still, with difficulty, track back and see where they came from. However, if one kneads the dough again, they swirls move again. One can trace them back to their immediatly prior position, but all information regarding their still earlier position(s) is destroyed. This removes the traditional cause effect relationship, because the "Original Cause" isn't really a cause at all.

I disagree. Though the evidence of the specks' original positions was destroyed, it only makes it impossible to find these original positions, but does not change the fact that said original positions are ultimately responsible for their final positions. My belief is that the nature of occurances is the same way, impossible to retrace accurately, but predetermined nonetheless.

Also, another point. Once again, referring to the dough example as a representation for the universe. If one were of infinite intelligence, and had all of the necessary information, right down to every stroke of the dough (with excrutiating detail), and the final positions of the specks, the original positions could be calculated, no matter how many times the dough was rolled.

 

[Haltickling]

If one were of infinite intelligence, and had all of the necessary information, right down to every stroke of the dough (with excrutiating detail), and the final positions of the specks, the original positions could be calculated, no matter how many times the dough was rolled.

Sorry, but no. This would imply that the specks would behave in exactly the same way if you repeated the experiment with identical parameters. This is simply not the case. Chaotic movement is not calculable, that's why it's called 'chaotic'.

Besides, the preliminaries immediately after the Big Bang do allow more than one possible development at each step, like equations with multiple solutions. So there is an infinite number of possible alterations on the time path to today with completely different results. Our world is just one of a zillion possible worlds, so that leaves no room for absolute determinism.

However, there is relative determinism: The total number of possible worlds and the changes therein follow the rules for stochastic distribution, which does not determine singular events. It only gives you a probability factor for the whole system.

 

[maverick83]

I must point out that if all parameters were truly identical, beyond what is humanly possible, the specks WOULD behave exactly the same. My opinion is that there is no such thing as "chaos". The only reason it seems chaotic is that there are too many variables for our feeble human minds to comprehend. Remember, at no point did I claim that this so-called "chaos" was calculable by human standards. (Or, if my theory holds true, by the standards of any currently existing being in the universe)

 

[Haltickling]

That's a dog chasing its own tail: If there were such a perfect being as you described, then the world could be predetermined, but there can't be such a being in the current universe because the current universe does not allow the existence of such a being... 🙄

That's no theory, it's Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. You can either measure a specific particle's velocity OR its exact location. That doesn't apply exclusively to human minds, that's a general law of nature. Therefore no being can ever know the EXACT parameters.

The chaos theory is still a theory because chaos research is very young, but it's generally accepted by scientists that there is a certain amount of unpredictability and uncertainty in the very essential structures of the universe. Do a little reading on that. I've got only German sources, but I'm sure that Boston's MIT and other institutes offer links in English as well. You might think differently about chaos afterwards.

And there's still the problem of equations with several possible solutions. They multiply towards infinity as there were practically infinite actions and reactions since the Big Bang, so there again it requires an infinite being to understand and calculate them.

I realize that many people believe that God is that infinite being, but IMO his existence is no logically required preliminary. It's a matter of personal belief. If you believe in God, then determinism is a viable possibilty (although then, he would also have pretedermined every single sin you commit).

 

[maverick83]

We're getting closer to agreement. I don't want to get into my whole theory, but to put it simply, I think "god" was the sum of all energy in the universe, just as the big bang theory states that all matter existed in a single form at one time. But even if a godlike force never existed, for something to be predetermined, it does not necessarily have to be determined by something with consciousness. I'm not saying that anything or anyone actually determined it all. Just that it was predetermined. That everything that happens, though possibly not foreseen by anyone or anything, was set since the beginning. The equations with several solutions is the same thing, more or less. I mentioned about the actions and reactions increasing exponentially, and I agree entirely. There were practically infinite since the beginning. And though it would require a being of infinite intelligence, the reactions are calculable. My point throughout this discussion has been that if something is predetermined and nobody knows it, it doesn't change the fact that it's predetermined. I am by no means saying that any conscious entity planned or understood any of it, but that the later reactions were based on the initial action, and that all of it could be calculated, IF one possessed the intelligence. Going back to my original post on this thread, since no living being is capable of such calculations, one may as well ignore the fact that all is predetermined, because the illusion of free will has been created almost perfectly by the incomprehensible number of actions and reactions.