Hamas

[jj82277]

Today, through a democratic election, Palastine elected itself a terrorist group as the majority, and controlling party. I am relativwely knew to analysing the world abroad, so i would like to hear what some of my esteemed sitemates have to infer about this turn of events.

 

[Ignatz]

I am afraid the voters saw Israel's ceding of territory as a victory for the violent tactics of Hamas and their like, and they rewarded them accordingly. Keeping the Gaza Strip was really more trouble than it was worth to Israel, and I understand why they let it go, but the long term result may be unfortunate.

 

[august spies]

well hamas has much more than an armed wing. overwhelmingly its resources are spent on social services and in a place where suffering is immense due to a military occupation, those social services were paramount in earning them trust and respect. secondly, the old guard in fatah is very corrupt and out of touch with the average palestinian, unfortunatley all of fatah was punished for this. hopefully, hamas will remain true to deomcracy and respect individual rights, not force religion upon people, and allow dissent. so far their history in that matter has been fairly consistent, lets hope it stays that way and the new gaurd in fata can unite with other leftist parties and form and formidable opposition.

 

[IrishTickle1]

Yeah, it's too early to assume war is about to break out. Hopefully people will learn from the past (though they rarely seem to!).

 

[Beaunanza]

The people have spoken. The U.S. wants to force democracy down everyone's throats. But here's a case where democracy has spoken ...and look what it has produced. Interesting.

 

[Killerk]

It's not really a surprise to be honest. When a people are pushed to breaking point, they will elect the extremist party.

It happened in Germany in 1933. With the aftereffects of the Great Depression still being felt, the German people were out of work, desperate, and the weak government was seen as ineffective. The Nazi Party promised to put people back to work, and to rip up the very unpopular 'Treaty of Versailles'...in particular the 'War Guilt Clause' in which Germany had to accept the sole blame for starting the war (which as any historian will tell you, is not true!). So, the Nazi's were voted in with 35% of the vote, making them the largest party in Germany...and from there they conslidated their power, making them the single largest party in Germany. At that point, they set about destroying democracy from within.

What we have here is a similar situation. The Middle Eastern situation is a mess, there's too much hate, on both sides. But clearly, the Palestinian people feel oppressed, and they see the current government as weak. Hence, they vote in the extremist party...and while it's too early to say where it might lead, when the people effectively swing their support behind 'terrorists', then you know that things aren't starting to look good.

 

[blackmagicjack1]

Have a favor to ask. Can the Topic be renamed Hamas, so people know what it is about. Had all kinds of thoughts go through my head from food to Humanity and it's interaction with Mass (Catholic).

Thank you

 

[IrishTickle1]

Have a favor to ask. Can the Topic be renamed Hamas, so people know what it is about. Had all kinds of thoughts go through my head from food to Humanity and it's interaction with Mass (Catholic).

Thank you

lol, I was thinking the same thing, but thought I'd just let it be... 😀

 

[jj82277]

sorry guys, tha would be my fault.how do you re-name the thread. that jhust plain stinks on my behalf. I feel terrible,

As for the discussion, I do like Killerk's relation between these evenst and the events in Germany. And the crazy thing is that their is a mutual blaming of the Israelites, i think that's funny.

I think that in the long term, there are a couple of scenarios that could turn out quite well. I think that in the event that Hamas truly takes on the reigns of democracy, and is hit with the burden of leading and governing that they will realize that there is a lot more to being a member of the international community than spouting your mouth off and shooting into the air. In order to keep foriegn aid coming into that country they are going to have to do some serious growing up as a party, and this time, i don't thikn that there will be a whole lot of appeasing so they won't have much room for error.

or in the long run the party will not serve the means of the people, and they will once agin vote them out of power in favor of another government that which will promise to do better.


I still defend the process of spreading democracy, because even though we may not agree with their choice, they expressed their disatisfaction through the ballot box and not through suicide bombing (at least not yet anyway), I think that if hamas does embrace the structure of democracy, that a lot of their terroristic activities as a result will become less effective than actually leading.

Now the ugly thing would be that the party struggle in its seizing of power, there is political uprising, and or they just (as the Nazi's did) errode the democratic process from within crush the remaining individual rights of palestine and embark on a suicidal quest to destroy Israel. I don't think that they all really want to be campaign food for the G.O.P. in 08 that bad though.

 

[MistressValerie1]

I renamed the thread as requested.

I've been watching two days of commentary by experts about the election results. All of them basically had the same opinion as Punk, so I'm inclined to agree. I also agree particularly with the third paragraph in JJ's post, above.

 

[august spies]

i think hamas is too sophisticated to opress the left opposition, hopefully im right. abbass needs to resign so a decent opposition can take the reigns. but the question still remains, will they be any better at ending the occupation

 

[blackmagicjack1]

I renamed the thread as requested.

I've been watching two days of commentary by experts about the election results. All of them basically had the same opinion as Punk, so I'm inclined to agree. I also agree particularly with the third paragraph in JJ's post, above.

Thanks Val

 

[jj82277]

thank you really for covering my ass and not letting the world further know i can't spell worth anything.

by the way, which would you consider the third paragraph. i often indent a lot, so just wanted to know where you are coming from.

Punk, what exactly is the history of this group, i remember that they were mentioned in that movie the seige. who are they, what got them started, and what makes you consider them sophisticated, I really don't know alot about this group

 

[coloman]

The fact that Israel wants the Hamas party to disarm itself speaks volumes for me. An extremist group usually is brought to power by people as a last resort or because economic or social conditions have been eroded to the point that people will try anything to improve the conditions they live in. I too will defend the process of democracy because even though it's not perfect it beats the Hell out any other form of government I know about.

 

[MistressValerie1]

You're welcome, JJ.

The paragraph I liked was "I think that in the long term, there are a couple of scenarios that could turn out quite well. I think that in the event that Hamas truly takes on the reigns of democracy, and is hit with the burden of leading and governing that they will realize that there is a lot more to being a member of the international community than spouting your mouth off and shooting into the air. In order to keep foriegn aid coming into that country they are going to have to do some serious growing up as a party, and this time, i don't thikn that there will be a whole lot of appeasing so they won't have much room for error."

I hope that the reality lives up to it 🙂

 

[jj82277]

Irony

so do I, the crazy thing is that if it does, and there is a peaceful disarmerment and the country becomes a viable democracy, along wiht Iraq and Democracy spreads through the Middle East, a certain President, who apointedd the first minority, female Secretary of State in U.S. history might be remembered through the ages as one of the greats, but that's another story >🙂

 

[august spies]

thank you really for covering my ass and not letting the world further know i can't spell worth anything.

by the way, which would you consider the third paragraph. i often indent a lot, so just wanted to know where you are coming from.

Punk, what exactly is the history of this group, i remember that they were mentioned in that movie the seige. who are they, what got them started, and what makes you consider them sophisticated, I really don't know alot about this group

the group has only become very popular since the start of the second intifada. however they formed in the 80s as an offshoot of the muslim brothers, like the us with other fundamentalists, israel actually helped hamas grow to counterbalance secular leftists. of course what mainly got them started is the occupation.

sophisticated in the sense that they are more sophisticated than your average religious fundamentalist group. their armed wing is relativley small compared to their vast network of desperatley needed social services and compared to the old gaurd of fatah they are not as corrupt and are more in touch with the average person.

 

[jj82277]

do you believe that they will continue with their assertion that they want to destroy israel and all that hard line stuff, or do you see them joining the lifestream of the international community over a slow period.

 

[GiveMeFeet]

Hamas/Palestine have been teaching their children that "Israel" doesn't even exist on the map (or at least many of them, I hate to paint with too broad a brush). It will be difficult for people brought up in that way to begin to accept a different perspective.

My fear is that the U.S. is going to try to "rush to the rescue" in its mad attempt to convert everyone to a western way of life. I would warrant keeping a very close eye on the situation, but I'd want to see how this begins to work out for itself before I deem what's going on as a threat to all mankind.

 

[Switchback]

Does anyone else not see what is obvious? Or are we taking this too lightly?

An organization that has clearly waged war on Israel through guerilla tactics and has professed the destruction of Israel as their ultimate goal is a primary political party. Are the ones who posted before me so obtuse as to not see that merely being labeled as a political party instead of what it is-a terror network- doenst change the leopard's spots?

Occupation my ass...(more on that in later thread)

To put it into perspective, Let me use an analogy for our more liberal members...what if a group that adovcated the destruction of homosexuals as their party platform (for wasting health care resources and making bad television shows on Bravo!-obvioulsy exxagerated claims) were elected into power, with their history being one of actively seeking gays and lesbians and taking them out.
Now lets see if you would really believe that this group, now elected into power and given a military standing, would abstain from its primary mission.
Seriously doubt it.

Why then does everyone believe that groups like Hamas( whose mission is even worse-genocide) are really misunderstood, overly-harsh political action committees who just need a chance to show their good side?

Ignorance.

 

[jj82277]

let me assure you, that not everyone is trying to say that this group is a welcome addition to the world, quite the contrary. I think that we all agree with the fact that having a group with that stated mission would be a catastrophically destructive force to any hope of peace in that region.

I believe that the assertion that most were making is that the weight of having to actually lead, instead of being a destructive force behind the scenes of a nation, could force the leopard to change its habits at least while its in power.

I dont think that anyone is understating the criticalness of the situation facing the world and this administration with the emergence of this new power, but i hope for a resolution without armed conflict (but if it comes to that it comes to that), and the only way that is possible is if the people of Palestine adhere to the democratic process. because then if there is no improvement on their situation directly, then they will get hamas out of power without us having to risk manpower. but I agree wholeheartedly with what President Bush Said, "we can not deal with a political party that has an open charter to destroy our ally israel"

 

[FFY]

Bah! Israel and the Palestinians are two groups of people who have been fighting each other for hundreds of years. They won't stop until one of them is entirely wiped out, Jerusalem totally belongs to one of them, or Jerusalem is wiped off the damn globe entirely. The Palestinians don't want to share Jerusalem and they certainly don't want peace. The Israelies don't want to share Jerusalem either. I think we should just evacuate the entire damn city and then nuke it.

Seriously. It's become too much trouble. On a side note, I find it funny that the Palestinians think that once they defeat the Jews, they'll have Jerusalem all to themselves. They won't. Egypt and Iran have been eyeing the damn place for years. The Palestinians would just suffer under ANOTHER occupation and have to restort to terrorisim again (this time against people of their own faith).

 

[august spies]

do you believe that they will continue with their assertion that they want to destroy israel and all that hard line stuff, or do you see them joining the lifestream of the international community over a slow period.

While i admit their stuff is hard line, its not more hardline than the israeli government who wants (and has) a jewish only state. When hamas is talking about the destruction of israel, they mean the destruction of israel as a jewish state. they do not have the means nor the policy of wiping out physically israel. that is the way the media spins it.

Why we need is neither but a place where people can live together without being persecuted. but hamas has called a truce and held it despite israeli provocations and they already said they would call an end to the armed struggle if the occupation of the west bank and gaza were ended. this is much further than the israelies are willing to go towards peace. they took part and embraced democracy and we can only wait and see how they act.

as i said, i hope the old gaurd of fatah will step down and a new more leftist non corrupt secular palestinian political movement can grow and challange hamas democratically.

 

[august spies]

Does anyone else not see what is obvious? Or are we taking this too lightly?

An organization that has clearly waged war on Israel through guerilla tactics and has professed the destruction of Israel as their ultimate goal is a primary political party. Are the ones who posted before me so obtuse as to not see that merely being labeled as a political party instead of what it is-a terror network- doenst change the leopard's spots?

Occupation my ass...(more on that in later thread)

To put it into perspective, Let me use an analogy for our more liberal members...what if a group that adovcated the destruction of homosexuals as their party platform (for wasting health care resources and making bad television shows on Bravo!-obvioulsy exxagerated claims) were elected into power, with their history being one of actively seeking gays and lesbians and taking them out.
Now lets see if you would really believe that this group, now elected into power and given a military standing, would abstain from its primary mission.
Seriously doubt it.

Why then does everyone believe that groups like Hamas( whose mission is even worse-genocide) are really misunderstood, overly-harsh political action committees who just need a chance to show their good side?

Ignorance.

many organizations and states have waged war agains israel, mainly after being attacked first. when israel invaded egypt the first time eisenhower was pretty pissed, when israel invaded egypt the second time they destroyed a clearly marked american military spy ship and killed many men (johnson didnt seem to care).

yea i mispoke about occupation, its occupation and colonization.

Your perspective doesnt make any sense. homosexuals dont have a "homosexual only" state witha giant human rights violating military bent on taking over and colonizing "non homosexual peoples", if they did i would be against that homosexual state, but not homosexuals in general. hamas wants the destruction of the jewish state because it inherintly discriminates against non jewish people under its control, including those who are citizens living in israel proper. the flipside of course is that hamas wants an islamic state, but they have neither the means nor the power nor the right to convert or expel israeli jews. so its time to put that media myth to rest.

Im not saying that there are no palestinians who want to do that, but that thinking will diminish with freedom, and unlike israeli thought, it is a byprodcut of the occupation and not right wing political thought. remembe hamas was created with the support of the israeli government as a counterbalance to leftist secularism.

 

[august spies]

Bah! Israel and the Palestinians are two groups of people who have been fighting each other for hundreds of years. They won't stop until one of them is entirely wiped out, Jerusalem totally belongs to one of them, or Jerusalem is wiped off the damn globe entirely. The Palestinians don't want to share Jerusalem and they certainly don't want peace. The Israelies don't want to share Jerusalem either. I think we should just evacuate the entire damn city and then nuke it.

Seriously. It's become too much trouble. On a side note, I find it funny that the Palestinians think that once they defeat the Jews, they'll have Jerusalem all to themselves. They won't. Egypt and Iran have been eyeing the damn place for years. The Palestinians would just suffer under ANOTHER occupation and have to restort to terrorisim again (this time against people of their own faith).

thats another popular myth that isnt true at all. while it is true that israel does not want to give up jerusalem (and the rest of the palestinian west bank for that matter) even Hamas has called for an end to the armed struggle is israel were to end the occupation. there is also a large movement within israeli society that wants to see the occupation ended and a shared city of jerusalem. there are many palestinians and israelies working together non violently and peacefully to achieve this goal, but they are met with bitter repression by the israeli military and many have been killed and imprisoned.