How much tolerance is too tolerant?

[kcantankerous]

darnit all I was just looking at something on yahoo news about honor killings and lost the link. Anyways aparently in some customs the if someone in the family does something deemed against the family than that member could be killed for disgracing the family name. For example if you were the daughter or son of these parents and you kissed someone you were not suppose to you could be killed or severly harmed because of it. This act is completely condoned in some customs. My question is if we are to tolerate other customs and beliefs how far should it go?

 

[amk714]

Here's one link I found: Britain grapples with gruesome 'honor' crimes

Of course we should tolerate different customs and beliefs, but not if they're harmful. "Honor" killings are crimes and should be treated as such. The people who commit these killings should be punished. 😡

 

[milagros317]

Such time as a custom causes a person to break the law, it is not to be tolerated under the umbrella of diversity. Obviously, murder is the most extreme case.

IMHO, a murderer who claims the right to have killed his daughter because she disgraced the family (usually by having non-marital sex), noting that it is the custom in his culture, should be treated as harshly as the law allows. He should be given the maximum sentence if convicted of the crime.

 

[Knox The Hatter]

If this is being done within my country's borders, than the perpetrators should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as such behavior is against our laws. If I was living in the country that said immigrants came from, I'd be subject to their laws (e.g. American service personnel not being allowed to celebrate Christmas during Desert Shield ). It's murder.

 

[General Zod]

If this is being done within my country's borders, than the perpetrators should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as such behavior is against our laws. If I was living in the country that said immigrants came from, I'd be subject to their laws (e.g. American service personnel not being allowed to celebrate Christmas during Desert Shield ). It's murder.

That's one thing that I really hate about being a Yank I was in Saudi in the summer of 1994 with the USAF For chaplain services they had to call it "P" and "C" services They couldn't call it Protestan and Catholic on the base 🙁

 

[Knox The Hatter]

I know I'm going off topic here...but you should've seen my face when Bush Senior (who made great hay during the 1988 election season supporting an anti-flag burning amendment) ordered US service personnel to remove the flag patches from their uniforms during Shield/Storm. Didn't wanna make the House of Saud uncomfortable, don't you know.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Saudi Arabia is full of shit... Unfortunately, it's also full of oil, so that's the only reason why we kowtow to them. Pathetic, eh?

Anyway, too much tolerance is when you can drink an entire case of beer and not get a buzz. Oh nevermind... we're talking about the OTHER tolerance... 😀

 

[barefoot_m_uk]

Good question

I think if you're visiting a country, it's just respectful to abide by local customs as well as the laws of the land. When in Rome, and so on.

If you're actually going to be a citizen of a country, with the privileges of a citizen, then as I see it you're entering a contract. The state's going to give you what it gives every citizen - right to vote as it might be, right to welfare as it might be, whatever. In return for that, you take on the duties of the citizen - to obey the law of the land first and foremost.

Tolerance is a wonderful virtue in a democratic society. But "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance". Everyone should have freedom of expression, and freedom of worship. But those freedoms have to be balanced against the needs of other members of society - hence the pledge of allegiance new citizens take in the States (as a UK citizen planning to emigrate there in the New Year, I've been thinking about this one a bit!).

Ultimately, I'm free in (say) the US to think my daughter has disgraced our blood by having a relationship with the 'wrong' person; I'm free to tell her that. What I can't do is assault her, or kidnap her, or commit some other crime against her, and say 'but in my culture, this is acceptable'. That I can speak my own language and practice my own religion, dress according to custom, and expect these things to be respected and tolerated - none of this means I can break the law with impunity.

One of the reasons I'm leaving the UK is we seem to have lost sight over here of that contract I talked about. Nobody seems to know just what we do expect of a British citizen any more - Britain's being hijacked, not by the minority groups who practice their own different cultures, but by the moral and moralising majority that claim their right to do so trumps whatever shreds of cultural identity we retain as a country. And that's a shame. Nowhere's perfect - of course it isn't - but fragmenting a nation into little ghettos of medieaval culture is hardly a recipe for progress.

Blah blah blah ... Enough from me, I think.

 

[amk714]

Saudi Arabia is full of shit... Unfortunately, it's also full of oil, so that's the only reason why we kowtow to them. Pathetic, eh?

Anyway, too much tolerance is when you can drink an entire case of beer and not get a buzz. Oh nevermind... we're talking about the OTHER tolerance... 😀

Quite so, Mac. If that country didn't have any black gold, it'd be just another piece of desert real estate like Vegas, only bigger and without the casinos. 😀

I've always thought I was tolerant, but since I don't drink, I guess that's not the case. 😛

 

[tickledorange]

Hmmm, if only there were a way to get the oil without being friends with them...

 

[Knox The Hatter]

I think if you're visiting a country, it's just respectful to abide by local customs as well as the laws of the land. When in Rome, and so on.

If you're actually going to be a citizen of a country, with the privileges of a citizen, then as I see it you're entering a contract. The state's going to give you what it gives every citizen - right to vote as it might be, right to welfare as it might be, whatever. In return for that, you take on the duties of the citizen - to obey the law of the land first and foremost.

Tolerance is a wonderful virtue in a democratic society. But "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance". Everyone should have freedom of expression, and freedom of worship. But those freedoms have to be balanced against the needs of other members of society - hence the pledge of allegiance new citizens take in the States (as a UK citizen planning to emigrate there in the New Year, I've been thinking about this one a bit!).

Ultimately, I'm free in (say) the US to think my daughter has disgraced our blood by having a relationship with the 'wrong' person; I'm free to tell her that. What I can't do is assault her, or kidnap her, or commit some other crime against her, and say 'but in my culture, this is acceptable'. That I can speak my own language and practice my own religion, dress according to custom, and expect these things to be respected and tolerated - none of this means I can break the law with impunity.

One of the reasons I'm leaving the UK is we seem to have lost sight over here of that contract I talked about. Nobody seems to know just what we do expect of a British citizen any more - Britain's being hijacked, not by the minority groups who practice their own different cultures, but by the moral and moralising majority that claim their right to do so trumps whatever shreds of cultural identity we retain as a country. And that's a shame. Nowhere's perfect - of course it isn't - but fragmenting a nation into little ghettos of medieaval culture is hardly a recipe for progress.

Very well spoken. Fine insight.

Actually, Orange, we went and did that with another country. It's called Iraq. And, the venture's not working out too well...

 

[amk714]

Actually, Orange, we went and did that with another country. It's called Iraq. And, the venture's not working out too well...

Are you reading my mind, Knox? That's what I was thinking when I read Orange's post! 😀

 

[Knox The Hatter]

Yes, Alex.
By the way, re Orange and her statement, there's a new novel out (I can't remember the name) where the premise is, we're at war in Saudi Arabia six or seven years from now, over oil. A no-brainer, really.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Hmmm, if only there were a way to get the oil without being friends with them...

As others have stated, war comes to mind. Granted, since we're so eager for war now, it wouldn't be too hard to convince the public that attacking Saudi Arabia would be a good thing. Just remind them that most of the guys who implemented 9/11 were Saudi and that many insurgents in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia as well. Any war can be justified, you just have to use the right propaganda.