" I am sorry, I was completely wrong"...........

[red indian]

......words you are very unlikely to hear from any of the British "Guardianista,s" and various assorted hard left U.S. hating columnists and "gobs on sticks" such as sadamm arse lickers, George Galloway and Tony Benn. Also the BBC should be ashamed of themselves over the way they have covered this war, with their barely concealed glee at the first sign of something going wrong.

SoI think its time for the U.S. and the Brits to give themselves a pat on the back for a job well done, for a largely gratefull Iraq, and lets look forward to the likes of Jeremy Packsman getting some of these dick heads on the telly for a grilling.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

cheers red!

i'd doff my chaepo (tip my hat) to you, but then you'd be scorned by the more "sensitive" denizens here on the tmf, for saying something that i find good.
so i'll just say cheers.
steve

 

[venray]

Well said mate,....well said......


Ven

 

[qjakal]

The Aftermath...

I'll wait on the analysis of the chemicals we've found to make a final judgement on how effective the inspectors were...although given that most of what we've found so far was carefully buried in the remote sand in specially constructed bunkers, it doesn't look like the regime was complying in any but the most superficial sense.

Completely wrong? Nah...there's no absolutes in this world red. Black and white is great for newspapers, penguins and floor tile, but the complex world of social interaction among us poor sapiens is flecked with a LOT of greys and shades of beige. Cross your fingers that the rest of the Baghdad occupation/liberation goes smoothly...this is a very dangerous point in time, where casaulties can soar due to urban sniping and activity among crowds. It's far from over, although watching that Iraqi crowd pulling down that big ass statue of Saddam this morning was historic. Some one said the number of posters and amount of statuary scattered around the nation is beyond belief. Starving population, huge beautiful ornate palaces and stauary....sigh...what a world. Let's hope the next government in Iraq is aware of the immense job it's about to undertake. Luckily, they at least have oil as an exportable resource to generate revenue to help them rebuild their infrastructure!

Q

 

[milagros317]

Very well said, Red Indian.

I do not expect to hear any apologies from the smug, moralizing, more-politically-correct-than-thou leftists. But I don't care to listen to them much on any subject anyway.

 

[Hitman]

I for one feel after seeing all of those happy people on the streets on baghdad is justifacation enough for this war.

 

[Limeoutsider]

Re: cheers red!

i'd doff my chaepo (tip my hat) to you, but then you'd be scorned by the more "sensitive" denizens here on the tmf, for saying something that i find good.
so i'll just say cheers.
steve

Go for it Steve, everyone's entitled to their opinions. I can't wait to see what the chemicals are that they found.

 

[Neutron]

Agreed...

Hear Hear. I agree with red indian on this one.
Now if I can just get him to acknowledge Britains shoddy WW2 performance the world could live as one!

Tron

 

[shark]

There's still alot to do in Iraq,but the first,and biggest,hurdle is out of the way.

One of the things I have noticed from radio and television is how the
expatriate Iraqis want no part of the UN,especially France,Germany, and Russia.They feel that the UN abandoned them,given the 12 UN resolutions that went unenforced.They also see the deals that Hussein had with France,Germany,and Russia,and are not especially pleased.

The chemical weapons are another topic.Some are suspected to have been hidden in Syria,as even now Syria is still sending supplies into Iraq.

Several posters have mentioned that the US sold chemical weapons to Iraq over the years.The following links might shed some light on this subject,as the allegations are disputed as being more leftist propaganda,started during the Reagan administration.

www. warroom.com download Monday and Tuesday shows

www. sipri.se This is an international research center that I had not heard of before.According to information that is found there,the Iraqis were making their own chemical weapons,but lack much of the necessary ability to purify it for long shelf life.This might explain why the Iraqis didn't use them effectively in 1991,and couldn't this time around.

For the poster who said that the only makers of bio/chem weapons are the US,UK,and now Iraq,you,especially,would learn something from this site.That is provided that you actually care,and not just throwing out more leftist/anti-west trash.

 

[Dave2112]

Thanks for the sentiments, Red. With all of the talk about the U.S., I hope that the effort put forth by our British brothers goes down in history as well. Also, we really need to thank the forces of Australia, Spain and Poland for doing what was right and just.

The fact that the U.S. has taken the brunt of the tounge-lashing (and England to a different extent) shows how personal much of this has been. There were also two major European powers and the fine fellows of Australia involved...funny how they escaped to outrage of the UN. Well, this individual is grateful for thier involvement. As was said earlier today, "old Cold War tactics (for fighting terrorism) of containment and deterrance do not work." Thank you to those who put themselves in harm's way both physically and politically to do the right thing.

Watching the people of Baghdad rejoicing was justification to me of this action. No one in the world can argue that this was done against the will of the majority of Iraq, you can see it with your own eyes. I'm sure that there will be accusations of propaganda from those who simply will never understand that you sometimes have to fight for the freedoms you want. Or others need and cannot achieve. Seeing Saddam's statue fall was akin to the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the raising of the flag at Iwo Jima or the final fall of the Soviet Empire.

I was in tears for a bit, not ashamed to say, to see the people of Iraq rejoicing. Many of these folks had nothing but Iraqi propaganda to listen to right up until today. Many believed that coalition forces were being beaten back, they've known nothing but what they've been told to know. To go from a death sentence for even speaking badly about Saddam, to dragging his head in effigy throughout the square has got to be liberating.

However, I found it rather insulting that while this was going on, word from the UN was that it would have no legitimacy unless the UN takes part in governing (and handing out the contracts, I imagine). Even those who opposed the war at the start were saying that they knew there was no real way to stop it, and had resigned themselves to "the inevitable". Which leads me to this thought: They're going to fight anyway, so take a political side to appease the anti-war lobbyists...then squabble over a role which was not earned. I'd love to see European involvement in the rebuilding of this scarred and brutalized nation. Spain, Poland and England are more than capable of representing a European prescence. After all, it was thier blood that helped make this happen.

 

[qjakal]

UN indeed.....

They need to rework the procedures that they operate within, including more relevant guidelines that reflect a belief in their own organization and its purpose....

Watching the statues topple was a marvelous thing indeed, but watching the looters running wild wasn't quite the same thrill. There's a LOT of pent up rage and other emotions about to explode in Iraq...proceed with caution. The issue of the Kurds will need to be dealt with, as well as establishing some form of government that won't explode into civil war as soon as our forces withdraw. Still...the looks on many of those faces is a powerful argument that it may just have been worthwhile to undertake this venture, for WHATEVER set of reasons it entailed. I'm trying to feel optimistic about the end game.. Q

 

[redway10]

Bush and Blair stood up to foolish shortsightedness and poor "peace"-promoting arguments and took action in one place where the world desperately needed it. Western democracies can't solve all of the world's problems (not this year, anyway).

Saddam's regime murdered thousands of INNOCENT Shi'ites, Kurds, Kuwaitis, and political enemies. This has been known for a long time, and no one thought the torture, rape, and murder would stop any time soon.

The argument that killing innocents to save innocents is wrong was ludicrous in this case. The phenomenally barbaric behavior (not to mention potential threats to neighbors, possibly helping terrorists, and prior production of tons of WMD) was monumentally greater than the risk of casualties and deaths in removing the tyrant.

The U. S. will not invade North Korea, Iran, or Syria. But the dictators who rule those countries know that they cannot rule with psychotic sadism and monstrous disregard for human life without potentially risking their own necks. Even France cannot save them.

I cannot help but believe that if Hitler had only tortured and slaughtered "undesirable" Germans, the same anti-war protesters would have protected him as well (the isolationists certainly did). If Hitler had not invaded other countries he would have been quite similar to Saddam.

When the leftists, far right isolationists, and Osama Bin Laden work together for a common goal, what is wrong with the world???

I don't expect to hear France or Germany or Turkey to retract their stance. On the matter of dealing with tyrants, I would say their credibility is very damaged, whether they will ever admit it or not.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Here's a cheer to things going so well in the victory over the tyrant Saddam Hussein.

And here's to people who still question the government and don't follow it blindly.

Heck, I don't personally know anyone who went to either a "pro-America" or "anti-war" rally.

 

[Dave2112]

Q, a note on the looting...

From what I understand, the military is more or less staying out of become a police force in the face of looting. It seems (as of now, anyway) that residential homes and businesses aren't targets, but government buildings and such are being ransacked. I can understand this happenning, and the military has expected it. Most of the stuff in those palaces and buildings was either bought with blood money, or tantamount to belonging to them anyway. The UN's "Food for Oil" program has apparently wound up in the hands of the government while the people starved. (Not that this was the UN's fault, you can't control what a government does with the supplies you give them.)

I agree with you about the UN needing to retool thier mission statement. The concept is a noble and good one, but it doesn't seem to have functioned very well in reality. It's hard to face 21st Century problems with 19th Century solutions.

 

[sole seeker]

I found it rather insulting that while this was going on, word from the UN was that it would have no legitimacy unless the UN takes part in governing (and handing out the contracts, I imagine). I'd love to see European involvement in the rebuilding of this scarred and brutalized nation. Spain, Poland and England are more than capable of representing a European prescence. After all, it was their blood that helped make this happen.

Amen brother... but first the active participants in this war (the US most definately included) need to deal with war crimes. I, for one, am not willing to forgive the torture (and death) inflicted upon our countrymen who were taken prisoners of war.

I'm not willing to pass the judgement of these criminals to a UN which has not been supportive of our efforts in the first place. I think there's too much chance of justice giving way to forgiveness in the name of expediency toward putting this war into the past.

 

[Dave2112]

The prosecution of any war criminals will not be a UN function, as this war was not sanctioned by the UN. I'm not 100% sure of the procedures, since several militaries were involved, but any war-crimes against US soldiers will most likely be dealt with by the US, or perhaps a military tribunal of the coalition, not the UN. They have no power in things they did not sanction.

 

[qjakal]

Power...

What powers they have they don't utilize efficiently. A united front at the UN would defuse the N Korean situation within weeks...don't hold your breath though. Some nations believe anything that gives grief to certain other nations or blocs of nations, is to be encouraged, whatever the cost may be in the long run. I'm just disgusted that these matters have to end up as the source of such bickering...regimes like Saddams are clearly evil and are in power for the sole purpose of their own benefit and extending their dominion in both time and space whenever opportunity presents itself. I'm sure Saddam Jr. would have been just wonderful for the country and worlds peace of mind. Bah...humbug...feeling pessimistic. Q

 

[Dave2112]

Feeling a bit peckish today, Q?

It does raise one's dander, doesn't it?

I just wish that people would stop thinking that we hate Europe or something. I simply feel that the UN doesn't function properly, not that it's evil. It's sad that we have to get these stereotypes thown at us out of bitterness. But his is what the UN is all about on a larger scale. Bitterness, disagreement and mud-bogging when action is needed. Not just military action, so save the barbs please guys, but damn near any action.

"What, you guys are starving? We'll get back to you in a few years once everybody's satisfied over the exact definition of 'starving'."