Imam boycotted because...

[Haltickling]

An Imam in a small town in east Turkey gets boycotted by his community because he suggested that men should help their wives with housework. Last Friday, only 3 men attended the Friday Prayer (equivalent to Sunday mass), instead of the usual several hundreds.

The inhabitants consider their Imam "mental and disturbed", and they demand a new one!

I suggest than these men have a look at families on America or Central/North Europe! And Turkey wants to become an EU member... 🙄

 

[General Zod]

That man took one hell of a chance in saying that I hope no harm comes to him

 

[the_Baron]

but really, who wants to do housework?

 

[Moses25]

Turkey has a long, long way to go...and so does Islam, if it wants to be recognized as a viable way of life by Western nations.

Why, just ask the Turkey above me!!

😛

Cheers.😀

 

[kis123]

Isn't this the same section of the world that has women thrown into jail just because hubby "says" they were looking at another man? I'm going to help you guys out because you're a little confused about marriage in these places.

You see, you guys are under the impression that these idiots marry for the same reasons everyone else does. You know, little unimportant concepts like love, companionship, partnership. No, these a**holes marry because they're told to. The women aren't educated and are treated somewhere at the level of a domesticated animal who cranks out kids for them. God forbid they reproduce daughters to have the same crap to look forward when they become of marrying age (13-17yrs old).

kis has done her job of educating the public about people who are chauvinistic pigs and are probably not going to change. This is the part where "I'm proud to be an American, 'cause at least I know I'm free" kicks in.

 

[Haltickling]

Hey kis, calm down. IMO, you can't call a whole culture "chauvinist pigs", just because they have a different set of values. Those who have a real choice and still treat women like cattle are chauvinists, not the uneducated, terribly poor people whose traditions tell them what they do is right, because the system has worked for thousands of years. Even their mothers teach this to their sons and daughters.

Women's lib only began when women started to get educated. Give them a century of education, and without the constant fear of starving, and these cultures will change.

It's so easy for us to scoff at different cultures and traditions. Remember that our views about equal rights for men and women is only a very recent achievement of our society, compared to the long history of patriarchates, which even dominates our Bible.

 

[milagros317]

... Give them a century of education, and without the constant fear of starving, and these cultures will change.

This is the key sentence, Hal. While not blaming those with little education who grew up in and absorbed a traditional culture, it is clear that any change will take generations, not years. So we must expect no change in the near future.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Hey kis, calm down. IMO, you can't call a whole culture "chauvinist pigs", just because they have a different set of values. Those who have a real choice and still treat women like cattle are chauvinists, not the uneducated, terribly poor people whose traditions tell them what they do is right, because the system has worked for thousands of years. Even their mothers teach this to their sons and daughters.

Women's lib only began when women started to get educated. Give them a century of education, and without the constant fear of starving, and these cultures will change.

It's so easy for us to scoff at different cultures and traditions. Remember that our views about equal rights for men and women is only a very recent achievement of our society, compared to the long history of patriarchates, which even dominates our Bible.

Hal, you've touched upon something that is the basis of my disdain for religion. Among many other things, it does seem that religion (whether it be Christianity or Islam, etc.) slows down cultural progress. Imagine how much faster civil rights for minorities and women would have come to Western nations if they had just dropped religion earlier. While it is true that certain aspects of human nature are the cause of such slow cultural progress in our species, religion and tradition can be held responsible as well. It would seem that the countries with the greatest sense of civil rights and gender equality are the least religious. The countries I'm referring to are in most of Western Europe and Scandinavia. By comparison, the U.S. is less religious than Turkey and so is Australia, but the U.S. still has some issues with gay people, and Australia still has issues with Aborigines. If America could just get over its homophobia and if Australia could treat Aborigines as equals to whites, then both nations would be up to par with the rest of the First World culturally. It seems that becoming less religious would solve much of this problem in the U.S., but Australia's racism seems to come from some other source.

As far as the Islamic Third World is concerned, I think nothing better could happen to their nations than if they just dropped religion altogether. Poverty in combination with religion generally leads to ethnic cleansing or terrorism. Observe the effects religious differences cause in Bosnia, the Middle East, and between Pakistan and India. If they all didn't have a religion, they would have one less reason to kill each other, and just maybe, women would be treated better in the countries that previously followed Islam.

 

[phatteus]

Was anyone expecting me?

I am here to offer my obligatory "I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong" opinion 🙂

but seriously: I don't think we can blame the Turks or the Muslims, or any other ethno/religious group for what we Westerners may see as their "shortcomings" any more than we can blame an Asian person for enjoying rice. (I knowm that is a very racist thing to say about Asian people, but I couldn't think of a better analogy... I apologize in advance to the wonderful Asian peoples... expecially the beautiful women) The Turks' (and other peoples') widespread mistreatment of women (By our standards) is a part of their culture, and is something that they have learned. We have no right to "tell" them that they are wrong, simply because we say so. I believe that women are to be given the same rights and priveliges as men. I also believe that all people, regardless of their gender, age, color, religion, are to be trated equally. My beliefs may clash with some other people. Just like I wouldn't want them to come along and tell me how wrong I am, so should I keep my nose out of their business.
As difficult as that may be for me! 🙂

 

[kis123]

Hey kis, calm down. IMO, you can't call a whole culture "chauvinist pigs", just because they have a different set of values. Those who have a real choice and still treat women like cattle are chauvinists, not the uneducated, terribly poor people whose traditions tell them what they do is right, because the system has worked for thousands of years. Even their mothers teach this to their sons and daughters.

Women's lib only began when women started to get educated. Give them a century of education, and without the constant fear of starving, and these cultures will change.

It's so easy for us to scoff at different cultures and traditions. Remember that our views about equal rights for men and women is only a very recent achievement of our society, compared to the long history of patriarchates, which even dominates our Bible.

Although I am a Christian, I have major problems with people using Christianity to dominate and control a people. It was used to justify slavery and to keep women "in their place". However, there are many places in the Bible where women are mentioned as pinnacles of the faith and did things that changed the course of history. Those stories don't get much attention. We're told Sunday after Sunday about women being submissive and subjective to their husbands and that the men are the bosses of the home. If I had continued to live by those rules, my ex would've ruined me, or I'd probably be dead. When I left him, I was bankrupt financially, mentally, and emotionally. To be exact, I was nearly suicidal. All because I wouldn't submit to him. He tried to control me every way he could. When the mental cruelty didn't work, he resorted to physical cruelty. There are a lot of pieces to this story that I'm not able to expose right now, but I think you get the picture.

You see, there are women dead, hospitalized, and imprisoned for doing what their husband said. You see, I was one of those crazy types who believed that you obeyed the laws of man as long as they didn't disobey the laws of God. My ex wanted me to lie, cheat, steal and claim it to be "hustling" and "surviving." He wouldn't take of the family financially and became jealous because I was finding legitimate and legal ways to support the family without his blessing. So I packed one box and garbage bag for each of my children and myself and left a five-bedroom home to live on my sister's second floor of her house for 14 months. I've come a long way since then. I've cleaned up my credit, made new friends, and came to the TMF all since I've been away from him. If I would've stayed in the marriage, I wouldn't be here today to write this post.

I said all of that to say this: With our world getting smaller and smaller, most of these people know that there is a better way to live. They choose not to change and keep their women under dominant control. They keep them uneducated so they can't get away and make a life for themselves. In certain parts of the world, women either abort daughters or throw them off of cliffs either out of failure to produce sons or the desire to never have a girl become a woman and suffer. Do you know that in some parts of the Middle East, women are banished because they produce daughters instead of sons? And just becuase women perpetuate the madness by passing it to their daughters doesn't make it right! That's one of the reasons why they're starving in parts of Africa because the women are having too many babies that their culture says they're supposed to have.

The day will come when enough of these women are willing to fight and possibly die for their freedom just like it did in the U.S. with the suffrage and civil rights movements.

 

[Haltickling]

That's tough stuff, kis, and I'm sorry you had to go through all this shit caused by your hubby.

Yet it only affirms my point: Only those who have a choice and still behave as if women were made by God to serve the men of this world are the real chauvinists. The men in those traditionalist regions are usually just as uneducated as the women.

The problem of traditional gender roles mainly afflicts the poorer regions of this world though. I've been to Turkey's bigger cities like Istanbul, Izmir, and Ankara, and there the women almost live like in the West. Istanbul is the most European city of the Orient, and yet the most oriental city of Europe. But the further east you travel, the poorer are the people, the more uneducated they are, and the more they cling to traditions. They're the "Rednecks" of Turkey, and that's where the Imam usually has more influence on the people than any government; the only worldly institution these people trust even more are the village elders, and they're the most avid traditionalists.

That's why this Imam's attempt to dissolve traditional gender roles is so remarkable and laudible. However, it takes a lot more than mere goodwill to change age-old traditions. He was ahead of his time, and therefore not accepted.

Which path to a stronger female role in such a backward society would you suggest? You won't find many women there who'd disobey their husbands; their very lives are at stake. Turkey is officially a laizistic state, but more than 90% of the population are muslims. The rural regions in estern Turkey follow the fundamentalists, who share the Taliban's view of our world. What can we actually do to jolt them forward into our time? Bomb them like in Afghanistan?

I honestly don't know, but it's certainly food for thought.

 

[kis123]

If the Imam is enlightened, so are others. In time, others will be less afraid to take a stand for what is right. It may take many years, it could take place tomorrow. But I have no doubt that it will take place. I hope those women get the freedom of choice and lifestyle they deserve.

As for my previous post:

Sometimes I get too carried away when I post, especially if something written triggers old crap. I work on myself daily, yet am still imperfect. If I managed to offend anyone, I apologize. I feel my situation is lightweight compared to many women in this world. There are women in jail right now because their situations were so dire they thought they had to kill in order to be free. Now they're in jail, that's worse than ironic.

 

[Moses25]

I'm reading a book called "The West vs. Islam" right now. It's brilliant. I don't know if it's in publication as of yet (it was given to a family member as a near-final draft), but when it does come out, I urge all those who are actually interested in Islam and the plight of so-called Third World Islamic countries to give it a try.

It may very well break your heart, or/and it will at least cause you to see your own surroundings, and indeed, the world at large, in a very, very different light. Especially those of us who are new to the study of history, and especially those of us who have only seen history from a Westernized perspective...I fall into both those traumatic categories...

It will also, at the very least, render my above opinion of Islam moot and absolutely ridiculous. 'Course, this is the first time that that's actually ever happened to me...*ahem*. 🙂

Mo's becoming a terrorist!! aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!! 😛

Cheers, you infidels. 😀

P.M.S. Yes, it's true, no knowledge is a dangerous thing; very little knowledge is even more dangerous...😉

Pee-Pee.M.S. Here's another: Hitler was a sadistic latent-homosexual.🙂