Jedi Suck, Sith Rule!!

[ShiningIce]

Ok, here I go with my rant. Dave, please refrain from attacking me with your lightsaber until im done. What would Star Wars be without the Sith? NOTHING!!!!!! Thered be no plot what so ever without people like Palpatine, Darth Vader, Exar Kun, Darth Maul, Ulic Qel-droma and Naga Sadow. Without the Sith Luke would still be a moister farmer with his redneck uncle. I mean lets be honest why did everyone watch Episode 1??? DARTH MAUL, I mean I sure as hell didnt see it for *gags* Jar Jar Binks! Without the Darkside all the Jedi would still be sitting on their asses meditating. All the visionaries lie with the Sith, they had the will to go out and conquer things, and blow sh*t up, and basically scare the everloving piss out of everybody. Yes I'm afarid the Jedi are pretty much worthless without the Sith

 

[Dave2112]

Actually, I'm not going to attack you at all. I agree, to a point.

As the New Jedi Order unfolds, we find that there's more to the Force than a Light Side and a Dark Side. These aren't two separate entities, they are parts of the same Force. Thusly, there is a "grey area" that few truly understand.

When talking about the films, I agree totally. There would be no plot without conflict.

When talking about the Force, it gets a little foggier. The Force can exist without one side or the other. In truth, the Force doesn't really have "two sides", it has two ways to use it. That depends upon the wielder. Many things can happen to a Jedi without making him Sith. Kyp Durron, Jaina Solo, Mara Jade...even Luke Skywalker have skirted the Dark Side, some delving deeply into it. And that's the difference.

The key to the true nature of the Dark Side isn't so much in the actions as in the intentions. Mara was following orders, believing that she was doing the right thing. Palpatine was doing it for himself. That's the true nature of the Dark Side. Selfishness. And that's why, even though the Sith and Dark Jedi (two totally different things, by the way), have always ultimately lost. Not by the hands of the Jedi, but through thier own self-destructive desires. The problem with the Dark Side is that it becomes more powerful than the vessel containing it.

"With the Force, there are two paths - good and evil - one may take. Nothing in between. One leads to a full life, no matter the years. Justice, knowledge and compassion are both endeavors and rewards. The other is most assuredly a short path that leads to untamed power. With nothing to earn, it leads to a certain, solitary end." - Jedi Master Rahn.

Thanks for the chance to debate.😎

 

[ShiningIce]

I suppose you're right but I just think that sith and dark jedi are the more motivated and inspiring characters

 

[Dave2112]

Motivated....yes. Inspiring...I'm not sure on that one. Like I said, from the point of viewing the films, the Sith are really cool. I D/L'd the Episode II preview trailer, and when it got to the part with Anakin speeding through the desert on a swoop, his black robes billowing out behind him, the red suns setting, and he says "Someday, I will be the most powerful Jedi ever", I got a quick chill.

I think that some of the characters in the New Jedi Order are getting close to figuring things out about balance. Particularly Kyp Durron, a character that I've started to really relate to. The original Jedi Order may have been a bit too staunch in its approach to the Force. I feel the Jedi need to be less monks and more activists. Even Yoda was not above having his own agenda. But considering his age, and the things he lived through, he needed to be that way. He was deeply involved in the Sith wars long before many of the Order were born. A being's beliefs tend to carry on in thier lives.

The problem with the Dark Side is nature itself. As noted, the Force is ONE entity. To ensure its own survival, it needs to make sure that an overabundance of power is tempered with a short life-span, and a limited vision. Self-destruction is abhorrant in nature, and the Force is no exception.

At least that's the way I see it.😎

 

[drkjedi458]

i stay gone a few days and look what i almost missed. i dont see much difference between sith and dark jedis...their all on the same side the only real difference is teachings. what ultimatly destroys a sith is greed for knowledge and power. those things are all well and good but you must know when you have reached your limits. a concept that palpatine found out was fatal if not heeded. the dark side is more powerful but not all of the teachings of the lightside are to be ignored. "a jedi does not know anger or fear." bah! anger and fear must be harnessed and used as a weapon. patience however is a must. as is moderation which is something so many darksiders have trouble with. palpatine didnt know when he became TO powerful and he was the instrument of his own destruction. ulic qel-droma and exar kun knew nothing of patience. had they waited until their numbers grew and better trained their dark jedi then the jedi might have been extinct 4000 years before anakin skywalker...but noooooo...they had to have the galaxy right then and they got bitch slapped for it. the dark side is a good thing but theres gotta be a little room for light in there or the darkness will swallow you whole. but the same goes for the light side. there must be room for the dark side because jedi are so blinded by the light that their unable to cope with darkness....which is why they were wiped out in the time of vader and palpatine. and its why they'll be wiped out again.

 

[Dave2112]

"A Jedi does not know Fear or Anger"

Sure we do. We just don't act on it. Controlling fear and anger is the key to the true power of the Force.

I agree with what you said about the lust for more power being the downfall of many Sith. However, it will always happen, no matter how controlled the darkness is. It consumes it's user. If the Sith managed to raise a thousand warriors to consume the Galaxy, there will always be conflict within itself. The Dark Side does not know how to defer power or accept rule, even by another Sith.

And to address the difference between Dark Jedi and true Sith, here's what I dug up from several references.

A Dark Jedi is one who uses his power in ways not generally accepted as "light". One who has "fallen" so to speak.

A true Sith is a follower of one or more (usually one) aspect of Dark Side lore. These beings accept the Dark Side from Day 1. These are the ones who follow the "One Master, One Apprentice" precept to keep alive the teachings and lore of the Ancient Sith Order.

A Dark Jedi is rarely involved with a Master and even rarer is one with an Apprentice. They are typically loners who have no direction in their relationship with the Force, reacting to the emotion of the moment. Sith are controlled users of the Dark Side, honing their negative emotions into a channeled force.

To make an analogy comparable to our own world and times, Timothy McViegh would compare to a Dark Jedi...he had his own self-serving beliefs which sprung from his lone mind. His actions were a manifestation of his own set of standards. A leading member of the Taliban (and possibly Osama bin Laden if you stretch the definition a bit) would be Sith. Part of an order set down long ago, with rules and guidelines, and a specific agenda.

Although we may be on opposite ends here, this has been a great thread guys, and the chance to debate has been most therapeutic. Thanks.😎

 

[ShiningIce]

Well in my opinion both Sith and Dark Jedi are what keeps Star Wars going, I mean meditating all day or simply being an enforcer to the Republic isnt exciting enough for me.....YOU NEEED THE DARKSIDE

 

[Oddjob0226]

Here's a question that's been buggin' me - if the Dark Side is the "bad" side, and it'a actually accepted by all followers of The Force/Jedi in the beginning of training - in fact, it's accepted by the people of the Star Wars universe in general - that taking that path only leads to trouble, badness, destruction, car wrecks, ants at picnics, etc.... I mean, it's actually part of the way The Force works.... then why do people choose to go with the Dark Side, then stick with it - especially after they run into trouble? I mean, if Anniken grew up a Jedi hearing the Dark Side was bad, then for whatever nutsy reason chooses the Dark Side, then loses his right hand, the general destruction of his body, and his true love - and the Jedi say it's only gonna get worse - why wouldn't he, why wouldn't anyone, attempt to reform real quick (I know, that's kind of what happened in Return of the Jedi)??? Why even chose the Dark Side in the 1st place? Both paths seem to offer pretty neat powers.....

 

[Marauder]

The dark path is the easy path. If you forgo it, you'll have a lot of neat powers, yet be unable to use them for quick-and-dirty ways to clear problems. Stormtrooper blocking your way? Now you could just whip out that lightsaber and cut him up real good, right? No. To do that would be following anger, and that leads to the dark side. Instead you use a Jedi mind-trick on him. Takes longer, and is way less flashy (and fleshy). As a Jedi, you need restraint, discipline and calm in all situation. That's a hard code to impose upon yourself. As a follower of the dark side, there's no such need. You get to blast away and enjoy the fireworks. And that's why you might not want to reform - the powers of the Dark Side come easier and are (on the outside) more effective. The price, of course, is high - but many individuals want to look at the present promise of power, rather than the future certainty of having to pay the piper.

Anyway, that's how I see it, and I'm not well-versed with Star Wars - I just look at our own society and jump to those conclusions.

 

[primetime]

the Sith are "cool" characters. i loved Darth Maul and especially his double-bladed lightsaber. too bad he made a cameo in Episode 1. was i the only one disappointed that we didnt more of Darth Maul? he had what? 2 or 3 lines? yet, he made a mockery of Qui-gon and if he wasnt so cocky, he would have beaten Obi-wan.

yeah, the Dark Side is the easy way to go. it's like "evil" of our world. how much easier is it for you to do bad things? humans are inherently evil. it takes a lot more strength to be "good". same with Sith and Jedi. yeah, the Sith do more "cool" things like Vader. Vader was a funny guy if you think about it. remember when he force-choke that paper pusher on the 1st Death Star when that guy was talking trash? remember when Admiral Ozzel died? remember when Vader said "Apology accepted Captain Needa." as Meeda laid there dying? remember when Vader told Lando Calrissian "I am altering the deal. PRAY i dont alter it any further!!"?? man Vader was one bad dude. but in the end, it was "good" that won out as his son showed him the "light". i would rather be a Jedi than a Sith. seems more rewarding in the long run.

but then again, i remember this poster for Episode 2 that had Anakin and Amidala and the words went something like this. "A Jedi shall not know anger....nor fear....nor love...." think about it for a moment. let's say you are Anakin and you are already "macking" to this fine looking, powerful woman from Naboo. you have been trying to talk to her since you were 11 years old. now you're older and so is she and she looks even better. she is having a good time in your company and you are falling deeply in love with her. she gives you that "look" and you know that this girl is THE ONE. then some little green dude tells you, "Nope. you cant have her. Jedi's dont know love or relationships. start calling yourself a monk." then some other guy named Palpatine comes over and tells you "if you're a Sith, you can have power, and money. but more importantly you can have WOMEN. lots of them if you want. we Sith believe in relationships. you can explore all of your human desires if you want." now you're Anakin. you look on one side, and see dignity and honor, but no women. on the Sith side, you see perhaps destruction, but also power and women. you see Amidala's fine looking self. and she's winking at you and smiling with a "come hither" look. what would you pick????

like i said, it takes a lot more strength to be a Jedi....

 

[Dave2112]

Marauder is right, and let me add something. As stated in earlier responses to this post, once the Dark Side fully insinuates it's will upon a user, there is really no choice after that. Not that every Jedi who slips into the Dark Side becomes Dark immediatlely, but it grows exponentially. It is much harder to find a peaceful solution than a violent one. There is no balance.

In "Shadows of the Empire", the novel set between "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi", we get a glimpse into Vader's mind as he sits in his metabolic chamber. He struggles with "keeping up the level of hate and anger" that his Master (Palpatine) has in order to no longer need the chamber. Once fully enveloped by the Dark Side, a Force-User must channel that hatred and anger constantly in order to maintain their powers and hold the degenerative effects of the Dark Force at bay. This chips away at the mind and ultimately leads to the user's destruction, sooner or later. This is what also prevents any solidified order to a Sith hierarchy. Even Darth Bane himself (who in lore was much more powerful than even Palpatine), understood this and knew that too many Dark Force users would ultimately consume themselves in the never-ending quest for more power. And that's what always brings the Dark Side down. There is never an end to the search for more power. It is never satisfied. As controlled as a user may be, the Dark Side will always seek more. Even though individual players may have a hand in bringing it down, I believe that the Force Itself balances things to it's own end. The Light Side being more of a "long-term" balance, if you will, Nature itself forces the balance.

 

[Dave2112]

Primetime's response actually came during my writing to Marauder's so let me address that one now.

I agree with you fully, Primetime. Yoda was not perfect. He had his own agenda. I am currently reading "The Approaching Storm", a novel that leads up to Episode II and deals with Obi-Wan and Anakin trying to deal with yet another political crisis during the unstoppable fall of the Republic. At one point, Obi-Wan's counterpart, Jedi Master Luminara Unduli inquires about Anakin. Even Obi-Wan questions separating infants from thier parents before a bond is made.

If there is one thing I disagree with concerning the "classic" definition of a Jedi is that they do not know love. In this case, Yoda helped bring the Jedi down, and in the novelizations, he knew this. A Jedi's strength comes from their emotions, not their thoughts. Love is one of the most important emotions out there. In the end, it was Vader's love for his son that caused him to do what he did, not revenge. And it was Anakin's love for his mother (and later Amidala) that caused the confusion in his mind, allowing Palpatine to bend him. (Read "The Approaching Storm, out now, to really get into this.) I have a little inside information that Anakin's mother will play a major part in his turning, albeit indirectly.

So, without love, a Jedi is missing out on a major source of power. This is one of the things touched upon as Luke tries to rebuild the Jedi in "The New Jedi Order" series.